Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

I have said before, God places His people among His people.   

 

There never was a time when I didn't believe in God.   Never.   

 

My family was as faithful in their teaching as they could be.  They knew God and taught me as best they could.   There was nothing faulty in their teaching.   They were limited but not faulty. 

 

Stranger

You do not know god's will, you can only presume it based on books and your thoughts. Don't act like you have the authority to say such a thing.

 

There was never a time you didn't believe because you were taught it was true. That does. Not. Make. It. So. But you have no desire to even consider anything other than that. To consider that maybe, just maybe, you were taught wrong.

 

It's funny how you say they were limited, and yet somehow not faulty. Having limited knowledge would mean knowledge that is not complete, or that is faulty. Because it is not a whole.

[midniterider]

 

 

What is 'reasonable' to you and others who reject Christ is not reasonable to me.  

 

My faith does not contradict me or God.  It contradicts you.   Big deal.   It's to be expected.

 

Don't talk about faith til you know what you are talking about.  

 

Stranger

 

We have already lived by faith in Jesus. Jesus didnt work out for us. 

[Guest]

 

 

God does exist.   Jesus does exist.  The teachings of Christianity are true.   Yes, any other beliefs, are rejected by me.  Note I said 'beliefs'.   

 

Stranger

Yes, and your beliefs in this truth are all based on the BIBLE, which you have not been willing to discuss at any length with anyone in this thread. You do realize there's a major problem when you aren't even willing to carry on any discussion regarding the book that is the very basis of your faith? You have pretty much ignored everything that has been said with the response ad infinitum, "it's all true." Why are you still here if you're not open to discussion?

[Guest]

 

 

God does exist.   Jesus does exist.  The teachings of Christianity are true.   Yes, any other beliefs, are rejected by me.  Note I said 'beliefs'.   

 

Stranger

Yes, and your beliefs in this truth are all based on the BIBLE, which you have not been willing to discuss at any length with anyone in this thread. You do realize there's a major problem when you aren't even willing to carry on any discussion regarding the book that is the very basis of your faith? You have pretty much ignored everything that has been said with the response ad infinitum, "it's all true." Why are you still here if you're not open to discussion?

[Guest]

 

 

God does exist.   Jesus does exist.  The teachings of Christianity are true.   Yes, any other beliefs, are rejected by me.  Note I said 'beliefs'.   

 

Stranger

Yes, and your beliefs in this truth are all based on the BIBLE, which you have not been willing to discuss at any length with anyone in this thread. You do realize there's a major problem when you aren't even willing to carry on any discussion regarding the book that is the very basis of your faith? You have pretty much ignored everything that has been said with the response ad infinitum, "it's all true." Why are you still here if you're not open to discussion?

[midniterider]

 

 

God does exist.   Jesus does exist.  The teachings of Christianity are true.   Yes, any other beliefs, are rejected by me.  Note I said 'beliefs'.   

 

Stranger

 

Jesus, please speak on your own behalf , simply and plainly, without human "aid". 

 

Thanks.

[midniterider]

 

 

God does exist.   Jesus does exist.  The teachings of Christianity are true.   Yes, any other beliefs, are rejected by me.  Note I said 'beliefs'.   

 

Stranger

 

Stranger starts rolling the ball bearings around in his hand...

 

"A key does exist! If it wasnt for my disloyal crew I would have yadda yadda...."

[midniterider]

 

 

As to God and Christ, I am not wrong.   Your value of my words is immaterial to me.

 

Stranger

 

As to God and Christ you are 100% wrong.

[midniterider]

 

 

I have said before, God places His people among His people.   

 

There never was a time when I didn't believe in God.   Never.   

 

My family was as faithful in their teaching as they could be.  They knew God and taught me as best they could.   There was nothing faulty in their teaching.   They were limited but not faulty. 

 

Stranger

 

Do you agree with everything your family taught you about Jesus? Is there anything you disagree with? Do you agree with Catholic doctrine? Mormon doctrine? Jehovah's witness doctrine?

[Astreja]

 

 

Predict all you want.  You are stepping out on faith.    Why not 100% accuracy? 

 

Stranger

 

Because in addition to being an atheist, I'm also a strong agnostic.  I believe that certain things are simply not knowable with 100% accuracy.  Even if a being that exactly matches the description of the Biblical Jesus showed up in my office, how does one determine whether it's a real Jesus or something else pretending to be Jesus?

 

Neuroscience, however, is something that I know rather a lot about.  One's awareness, personality, memory and beliefs require a conscious and properly functioning brain, with brain waves in a certain frequency range.  When the waves are very slow, 0.5 to 4 Hz (delta waves), we are unconscious.  When the brain is dead, our self dies with it.

 

If you don't believe me, ask yourself this question:  "Where does my 'soul' go at night when I am in deep, dreamless sleep?"  If it can't maintain your awareness in non-REM sleep in a healthy body, it's ridiculous to think that it can do any better once you're dead.

[Astreja]

 

That is interesting.  Because Christians see the Old Testament as from God.    But you don't.  But you choose Judaism over Christianity.  Do the Orthodox Jews agree with you, that their religion is not of God?

 

I don't give a crap what the Orthodox Jews think, as I have no intention of ever becoming one.  I clearly said Reform Judaism.

 

I believe that all scriptures, without a single exception throughout the history of humanity, are of 100% human origin and 0% divine origin.

[Stranger]

 

"What I said was you err because you trust what science says as final conclusions.  And they are not.  They are conclusions at this time only.   Open for change." 

 

"You err because you trust science to give you final conclusions, which it can't.   It is always still learning."

 

"You don't trust or expect science to offer final conclusions.    Which means your so called 'evidence' is very 'fluid'."  

 

Hello again Stranger.

I've cited you three times because I'm interested to find out more about your take on science.  

Of the sciences, mathematics is considered to be the one that deals in absolutes.

Therefore, if I give you an example, perhaps you could demonstrate for me the fluidity of this evidence?  

Or show me why the example isn't a final conclusion?  

Or how this example is open for change?

 

Here it is.

 

2 + 2 = 4

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you trust science to give you final conclusions about creation or God at this time?

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

How do you know this though? One "holy book" says Jesus rose from the dead, the other "holy book" says it was a trick. How can I tell without using reason against both?

 

You could write a paper today on how the Bible is wrong.  How there was no Jesus Christ.    How what you are writing is from God.  And that is what I should believe.   How much reason do you think I need to reject your claim?

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

Not at all. Again you are not reading properly.

 

 

Muslims have faith, they find yours unreliable, and you find theirs unreliable despite faith for both of you having the same definition. Belief in something without evidence.

 

 

You have yet to demonstrate something was created by your God

 

 

Mere assertion - back it up without using circular reasoning

 

 

Some Christian scientists disagree with you, They find god in science - what is your response to them?

 

 

No, faith is belief without requiring evidence. Science provides evidence for its explanations - no faith required. You are starting to build a straw man of my position regarding science - you should resit the temptation. You don't even need belief in science, you accept conclusions based on evidence provided.

 

I think you are confusing knowledge with deeply held beliefs. Basically if you can't show it, then you don't know it. And having words in a book is not knowing. That's believing. Strong belief to be sure, but you don't know.

 

 

 

Science does not say God does not exist. What it does do is say this story in this book doesn't match what we see in reality. One can then form the conclusion that one of them is wrong. Either reality is deceiving you, or the book is. And since claims in the book cannot be backed up with evidence its more rational to accept reality

 

 

I admit, that was cheeky of me, but I have posted that challenge time and again to Christians and the excuses flood in... so I pre-empted you there. I apologise, I somewhat poisoned the well.

 

I will reissue the challenge without the bit at the end - please respond:

 

"On the other hand your evidence is faith, which you cannot demonstrate even to a fluid degree. Try this one for size:

 

"I tell all of you with certainty, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew)

 

and nothing will be impossible for you."

 

Nothing Stranger, nothing impossible for you.

 

So video yourself moving a mountain and you will have a mountain of evidence I will believe...."

 

 

 

Where in islam is faith required to be a muslim?   Conversion to islam does not require faith.  It requires submission to Shariah Law.   What does the muslims 'faith' do for them?

 

Who wrote that law that I have to demonstrate God created?  God didn't.   

 

Christian scientists see God in science because they are already believers.   They did not come to God by science.  They came to Him by faith.   As I said, you cannot find God by science.   Science knows this also.   

 

I think scientists exercise much more faith in science than they realize.

 

I think you dislike that I can know without science.   Things of the spirit science cannot know.  God has made it so that when we exercise faith in Him, our spirits are born-again, and we then can know spiritual things.  'Know'...not just believe.     And you cannot say whether I can 'know' or not because we are talking about spiritual things.   All you can say is I cannot demonstrate it to you by science.   

 

You assume God is not reality.  

 

Both the physical world and spiritual world are of God.   Science can learn things about the creation.  Science conclusions that God did not create it or that He doesn't exist because they can't demonstrate it are wrong.   If God is Spirit, which He is, then you should expect the Book to be supernatural.  

 

I don't have the faith to move a literal mountain.  A sad testimony to be sure.   

 

Stranger

 

 

[Stranger]

 

Yes, and your beliefs in this truth are all based on the BIBLE, which you have not been willing to discuss at any length with anyone in this thread. You do realize there's a major problem when you aren't even willing to carry on any discussion regarding the book that is the very basis of your faith? You have pretty much ignored everything that has been said with the response ad infinitum, "it's all true." Why are you still here if you're not open to discussion?

 

Well, seems like we are covering quite a lot of ground.

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

You do not know god's will, you can only presume it based on books and your thoughts. Don't act like you have the authority to say such a thing.

 

There was never a time you didn't believe because you were taught it was true. That does. Not. Make. It. So. But you have no desire to even consider anything other than that. To consider that maybe, just maybe, you were taught wrong.

 

It's funny how you say they were limited, and yet somehow not faulty. Having limited knowledge would mean knowledge that is not complete, or that is faulty. Because it is not a whole.

 

I can 'know' God's will.   Because I can know God.  Such authority comes from God, which I and every other believer have.   You on the other hand don't have the authority to tell me I don't have the authority.   

 

What I was taught comes from the Bible.  Which comes from God.  Who placed there to parents to be taught the Bible. 

 

Yes, my parents Bible knowledge was not as much I have today.   But they were faithful to that which they had.   All believers are still learning truths in the Bible.   Always learning does not equate with faulty.

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

Do you agree with everything your family taught you about Jesus? Is there anything you disagree with? Do you agree with Catholic doctrine? Mormon doctrine? Jehovah's witness doctrine?

 

My parents pretty much just knew the basics.   And I don't remember anything they taught me about God that I ever disagreed with.  The church we went to, however, did have some things that I questioned even as a youth.    These things seemed harmless to them but to me they seemed they would result in a liberal unbelieving faith.    Overtime, my suspicion was proven correct.

 

In Christianity you have the 'fundamentals' of the faith.  Things which must be believed in order to be a Christian.   After that there are things or doctrines where you can have disagreement and still be true to the faith.   

 

The fundamentals of the faith most always involve  the Person of Jesus Christ.   Is Jesus Christ the Son of God?  Did Christ die for our sins?  Did Christ raise from the dead?  etc.

 

Stranger

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

Where in islam is faith required to be a muslim?   Conversion to islam does not require faith.  It requires submission to Shariah Law.   What does the muslims 'faith' do for them?

 

Muslims are commanded in the Qur’an as follows:

“The Messengers and the believers have faith in what was revealed to them from their Lord.  Every one of them believes in God, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers, saying, “We find no difference among the Messengers of God.” They say: “We hear Allah’s commands and obey them.  Lord, we need Your forgiveness and to You we shall return.” (al-Qur’an Chapter 2, Verse 285) 

 

I think you might have your christian glasses on and not able to see the comparisons between religions.

 

 

 

Who wrote that law that I have to demonstrate God created?  God didn't.

 

Don't be silly Stranger. If you want to assert something then be prepared to demonstrate it, If you can demonstrate it then get out of the house.

 

 

Christian scientists see God in science because they are already believers.   They did not come to God by science.  They came to Him by faith.   As I said, you cannot find God by science.   Science knows this also.

 

Some atheists have 'come to god' through science, making your statement above categorically false. Do you even bother to research before blabbling off your mouth? Point 1 is clearly wrong, and so is point 3. On to point 4.

 

 

I think scientists exercise much more faith in science than they realize.

 

Neither I, nor anyone here, nor scientist give a damn about what you think, because you have clearly showing that your thinking abilities are very poor. When, and only when, you start demonstrating some clear thinking skills will I actually take note when you say you "think". I've never heard one scientist claim they have faith in something that's been shown to be wrong.

 

 

I think you dislike that I can know without science.   Things of the spirit science cannot know.  God has made it so that when we exercise faith in Him, our spirits are born-again, and we then can know spiritual things.  'Know'...not just believe.     And you cannot say whether I can 'know' or not because we are talking about spiritual things.   All you can say is I cannot demonstrate it to you by science.  

 

We can add to your list of attributes deluded. God is not telling you anything, and you can't mind read, so in order for you not to look a fool don't try and tell others what you think they are thinking.

 

You can't demonstrate it full stop, period. You can't even show me, that despite knowing so much, that you even have faith the size of a mustard seed. How big is your faith? 

 

 

 

You assume God is not reality.

 

No, my pastor told me he's not in reality, that he exists outside reality.

 

There's a major issue here - what do you think the issue with having god outside reality is?

 

 

Both the physical world and spiritual world are of God.   Science can learn things about the creation.  Science conclusions that God did not create it or that He doesn't exist because they can't demonstrate it are wrong.   If God is Spirit, which He is, then you should expect the Book to be supernatural.

 

Assertion.

Correction, science can learn things about reality. - You have yet shown anything was created by God.

Science does not conclude anything about God. We can make statements about reality using science, and those statements conflict with claims in holy books, and because those holy books cannot back their claims up, people can conclude god doesn't exist.

I thought God became flesh.... let me see... oh yes here it is: "the Word became flesh and lived^[k] among us." John Chapter 1

 

 

I don't have the faith to move a literal mountain.  A sad testimony to be sure.   

 

Fair enough Stranger, that's the first true honest thing you have said this entire thread. I applaud you for your honesty, as hard as it might have been. There's hope for you yet

 

I'm off to bed now, I'll continue tomorrow.

[Stranger]

 

 

Because in addition to being an atheist, I'm also a strong agnostic.  I believe that certain things are simply not knowable with 100% accuracy.  Even if a being that exactly matches the description of the Biblical Jesus showed up in my office, how does one determine whether it's a real Jesus or something else pretending to be Jesus?

 

Neuroscience, however, is something that I know rather a lot about.  One's awareness, personality, memory and beliefs require a conscious and properly functioning brain, with brain waves in a certain frequency range.  When the waves are very slow, 0.5 to 4 Hz (delta waves), we are unconscious.  When the brain is dead, our self dies with it.

 

If you don't believe me, ask yourself this question:  "Where does my 'soul' go at night when I am in deep, dreamless sleep?"  If it can't maintain your awareness in non-REM sleep in a healthy body, it's ridiculous to think that it can do any better once you're dead.

 

Well, if a being matching the description of Jesus showed up in your office he is a pretender.   Jesus at this time is physically sitting at the right hand of God.  When He does return, the church is out of here.   Till then all others are imposters.    Believe me, when Jesus returns, if you are here, you will know it.   He is not going to be the meek, lowly, Jesus you are familiar with.   

 

Your soul remains within your body at sleep.  God gives the believer a new spirit, born-again.   Alive to Him.   At physical death, the soul, and spirit of the believer goes to be with Christ.  

 

Stranger

[Guest]

 

 

Well, seems like we are covering quite a lot of ground.

 

Stranger

Thanks for the chuckles. "Covering ground" eh? I wish you all the best.

[Stranger]

 

 

Muslims are commanded in the Qur’an as follows:

“The Messengers and the believers have faith in what was revealed to them from their Lord.  Every one of them believes in God, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers, saying, “We find no difference among the Messengers of God.” They say: “We hear Allah’s commands and obey them.  Lord, we need Your forgiveness and to You we shall return.” (al-Qur’an Chapter 2, Verse 285) 

 

I think you might have your christian glasses on and not able to see the comparisons between religions.

 

 

 

Don't be silly Stranger. If you want to assert something then be prepared to demonstrate it, If you can demonstrate it then get out of the house.

 

 

Some atheists have 'come to god' through science, making your statement above categorically false. Do you even bother to research before blabbling off your mouth? Point 1 is clearly wrong, and so is point 3. On to point 4.

 

 

Neither I, nor anyone here, nor scientist give a damn about what you think, because you have clearly showing that your thinking abilities are very poor. When, and only when, you start demonstrating some clear thinking skills will I actually take note when you say you "think". I've never heard one scientist claim they have faith in something that's been shown to be wrong.

 

 

We can add to your list of attributes deluded. God is not telling you anything, and you can't mind read, so in order for you not to look a fool don't try and tell others what you think they are thinking.

 

You can't demonstrate it full stop, period. You can't even show me, that despite knowing so much, that you even have faith the size of a mustard seed. How big is your faith? 

 

 

 

No, my pastor told me he's not in reality, that he exists outside reality.

 

There's a major issue here - what do you think the issue with having god outside reality is?

 

 

Assertion.

Correction, science can learn things about reality. - You have yet shown anything was created by God.

Science does not conclude anything about God. We can make statements about reality using science, and those statements conflict with claims in holy books, and because those holy books cannot back their claims up, people can conclude god doesn't exist.

I thought God became flesh.... let me see... oh yes here it is: "the Word became flesh and lived^[k] among us." John Chapter 1

 

 

Fair enough Stranger, that's the first true honest thing you have said this entire thread. I applaud you for your honesty, as hard as it might have been. There's hope for you yet

 

I'm off to bed now, I'll continue tomorrow.

 

Well, yes every religion believes its religion.   But 'faith' as a real ingredient accomplishing something in the individual and it alone required for salvation, is not found in islam or any other religion.   islam is law and submission.  

 

In other words, there is no law that I have to demonstrate to you that God exists.   As I have said, when you are dealing with God, you are dealing with things of the Spirit.   You have no way of proving to me that God did not create the universe.  There is no way you can demonstrate it by science.   The Bible is a spiritual book.  The Christian has the Spirit of God in them.  We know.  

 

How did an atheist come to God through science?   They did not prove God by science.   Science could not show them God.   If they didn't come by faith, they didn't come.   There is a looking at the grandeur of the creation and rightly recognizing that there must be a God.   And then one may seek Him.  But it will only be by faith that they come.   

 

I didn't say scientist's have faith in something they know to be wrong.  They have faith in things they believe to be right.

 

Well, you want to tell me God is not saying anything to me.   Yet you don't want me to tell you what I think you are thinking.    Indeed my faith is small.  But it is enough to be saved.   And hopefully growing.   

 

Your pastor is wrong.   God doesn't exist outside of reality.  He exists as Spirit.  Very real.   No issue.

 

I didn't say the physical world wasn't reality.   I said science can't learn about the spirit world, which is reality also.    You conclude God doesn't exist because you conclude the Bible doesn't measure up to scientific discoveries.    Yet your science is still learning.   Your science is making a conclusion when it doesn't have all the so called 'evidence'.   You shouldn't conclude.  The best science can say is that it doesn't know.   

 

It wasn't hard.   I have always known my faith is small.  But, as I said, hopefully it is growing.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stranger]

 

Thanks for the chuckles. "Covering ground" eh? I wish you all the best.

 

You're welcome.  Appreciate it.  Best to you also.

 

Stranger

[Guest]

@Stranger, I want to thank you for making it very clear that, in reality, you don't really believe in an actual God or a real Jesus. Your faith stems only from a book, a book written by sinners, and no doubt the authors were men similar to you in many ways. Why does your only source of belief come from what these men have written? Because they said so? How do you know that what they wrote was the truth? Because they said so?

 

It would be helpful as you continue this discussion to cite the bible verses that support your statements - in every instance - not just when it's convenient for you. For example you say that "faith alone is required for salvation," but you offer no citation.

 Also, it would be polite of you to respond when someone provides evidence that clearly disproves you, rather than move on or flatly ignore it. Did you not see that LF clearly showed you how Muslims do require faith, citing the Quran and proving your assertion wrong? He asked you how one should discern by faith whether to believe the Muslim God and their Quran or to believe the Christian god and their bible. But perhaps you found that question too difficult to answer. 

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

You could write a paper today on how the Bible is wrong.  How there was no Jesus Christ.    How what you are writing is from God.  And that is what I should believe.   How much reason do you think I need to reject your claim?

 

Stranger

 

I'm sorry (and yes, I'm really sorry), I'm really not trying to be dense. I just don't understand what you are saying here. Please don't tell me to "read it again," I'm not sure what your asking me. Do you mind rephrasing?

 

 

Well, yes every religion believes its religion.   But 'faith' as a real ingredient accomplishing something in the individual and it alone required for salvation, is not found in islam or any other religion.   islam is law and submission.  

 

I googled how to become a muslim and this site gives all kinds of answers. It seems faith (with conviction) is absolutely required when you say their version of the "sinner's prayer." Just some food for thought, to us what you are saying we need to be a christian is similar for islam.

 

http://gainpeace.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=79:how-to-convert-to-islam-and-become-a-muslim&catid=44:becoming-muslim&Itemid=109

 

 

How did an atheist come to God through science?   They did not prove God by science.   Science could not show them God.   If they didn't come by faith, they didn't come.   There is a looking at the grandeur of the creation and rightly recognizing that there must be a God.   And then one may seek Him.  But it will only be by faith that they come.   

 

This thought does not make sense to me. Personally, if I made some cookies and "passed down my recipe to my child," my "thumbprints" were all over my creation, then basic research should bring scientists back to me. They should be able to bake the recipe and have the result reflect what I professed to create. If there is really a god, and it's specifically yahweh, then creation should absolutely point back to him as truth. Scientists don't typically approach things (at least they shouldn't) with the goal of making the world fit into their preconceived box, they follow where the research leads. It should, in theory, point back to god if the world is how he says it is and he actually created it.

[midniterider]

 

 

I

 

Yes, my parents Bible knowledge was not as much I have today.   But they were faithful to that which they had.   All believers are still learning truths in the Bible.   Always learning does not equate with faulty.

 

Stranger

 

Stranger: If someone is always learning about bible truths that does not equate with faulty. Ok.

So, by the same logic, science is not faulty, though it is always learning.

 

Does truth change? Or is it just our understanding of it that changes?

 

If someone over many years changed their understanding of the scriptures until they finally had the right understanding, could their continual updating of their knowledge of the unchanging truth be called a "fluid understanding" ? I think it could.

 

Science works similarly. The working of the universe may not change, but our understanding may. That doesn't mean it's faulty.

 

Someone cant read the bible once and fully understand it. It's a big book and might take decades to get a thorough knowledge of it.

Likewise, someone can't look up at the stars one time and fully understand the universe. It's a big place and we may never know everything about it.

 

If a new Christian does not know the full import of the bible, is he foolish? An idiot? Destined for hell? No.

If science does not know the entire inner workings of the universe is science invalid? No

 

Has  your understanding of the scriptures always been the same? Have you come to realize that some scripture meant something different than you thought?