Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

[LogicalFallacy]

 

Well, you thought wrong.  He doesn't.

 

The bible disagrees with you - I just quoted where it said he healed all diseases... but you are saying he doesn't? Ok

 

 

 He certainly can heal all disease.   Whether He will or not is up to Him.  

 

"Ask and it shall be given".... unless its not given

 

Does this not disturb you, is is the ad hoc reasoning of god willing it ok with you?

 

The ironic thing with Christianity is that it has all these promises, but when they invariably don't come to pass people generally reason down two lines:

 

1) It's not gods will. Well, one wonders why one even needs to ask if its gods will. If it is his will then regardless of asking you will be healed, and if its not gods will its pointless asking.

2) The Christian flagellates themselves by saying they didn't have enough faith, or that there is some sin hanging around stopping the healing, or something wrong with their life.

 

They never seem to consider the third line of reasoning: Maybe its just all man made words on paper which is why the promises don't come to pass?

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

Let me ask you this....and answer me honestly...just what type of experience would convince you that I had a real encounter with God?   And how would I be able to relay that to you other than just telling you?    

 

Stranger

Something where you could actually demonstrate that God was the cause of your experience. 

 

As to how you'd relay that, I don't know, but if your god is the god you claim, then he should know what it would take to convince us. That he hasn't done so suggests that:

 

1) God doesn't care to reveal himself to us

2) God doesn't exist.

 

Either way the result is the same - there is no reason to believe in god.

 

I would suggest a better way is for god to give the experience to everyone rather than relying on most people believing the words of a few.

 

So are you saying you have had a real encounter with god? I know many Christians who haven't, but their faith doesn't seem to revolve around having to have a real encounter.

[Stranger]

 

 

The bible disagrees with you - I just quoted where it said he healed all diseases... but you are saying he doesn't? Ok

 

 

"Ask and it shall be given".... unless its not given

 

Does this not disturb you, is is the ad hoc reasoning of god willing it ok with you?

 

The ironic thing with Christianity is that it has all these promises, but when they invariably don't come to pass people generally reason down two lines:

 

1) It's not gods will. Well, one wonders why one even needs to ask if its gods will. If it is his will then regardless of asking you will be healed, and if its not gods will its pointless asking.

2) The Christian flagellates themselves by saying they didn't have enough faith, or that there is some sin hanging around stopping the healing, or something wrong with their life.

 

They never seem to consider the third line of reasoning: Maybe its just all man made words on paper which is why the promises don't come to pass?

 

Again, God can heal all diseases.  That doesn't mean He will.   

 

Jesus Christ at the pool of Bethesda healed only one man though there were multitudes who were sick.   (John 5:1-16)

 

One asks because God wants them to ask.    The Christian can have faith, and still not be healed.  God's will is the overall factor.    That is because the third line of reasoning doesn't exist with the Christian.  

 

Stranger

 

 

[Stranger]

 

Something where you could actually demonstrate that God was the cause of your experience. 

 

As to how you'd relay that, I don't know, but if your god is the god you claim, then he should know what it would take to convince us. That he hasn't done so suggests that:

 

1) God doesn't care to reveal himself to us

2) God doesn't exist.

 

Either way the result is the same - there is no reason to believe in god.

 

I would suggest a better way is for god to give the experience to everyone rather than relying on most people believing the words of a few.

 

So are you saying you have had a real encounter with god? I know many Christians who haven't, but their faith doesn't seem to revolve around having to have a real encounter.

 

I don't believe I was talking to you concerning this.   

 

God is not worried about convincing you.    You do nothing to God by not believing.  You do nothing to God by  mocking or rejecting His Son.  You take nothing away from Him at all.   If you don't  want to believe, don't believe.  

 

God does not care for your better suggestions.    

 

Stranger

 

 

 

 

[Stranger]

 

you are dead right ... you will not see it .... that is exactly what indoctrination and brainwash does to a person! You are caught in that subjective circle!

 

You will NOT see anything that is being said here by others UNLESS you are prepared to step outside that small eggshell you safely find yourself hiding in! Of course you will not ... that is why you are pointless debating with!

 

 

 

Do you own a gun?

 

Stranger

[LogicalFallacy]

 

I don't believe I was talking to you concerning this.

 

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize there was a law that required that on this forum you only respond if you are directly talked to. My bad.

 

You raised an interesting point about experience, I thought I'd answer honestly. Can't help it if you didn't like the answer.

 

I am not responding for YOUR benefit, I'm responding for the benefit of others reading this. So if they ask the same thing they can see they answers and hopefully make them think more deeply about the subject.

 

 

God is not worried about convincing you.    You do nothing to God by not believing.  You do nothing to God by  mocking or rejecting His Son.  You take nothing away from Him at all.   If you don't  want to believe, don't believe.  

 

Again you misread my post. You assumed it was an attack.

 

I said 

"As to how you'd relay that, I don't know, but if your god is the god you claim, then he should know what it would take to convince us. That he hasn't done so suggests that:"

 

So I don't know how one convinces another of an experience they had, but if the bible god exists he would know how to convince anyone. Wouldn't you agree with that?

 

 

 

God does not care for your better suggestions.    

 

...

.

.

You thought I was suggesting that to God? Ok. I was raising a talking point.... what is your opinion? Is it better that all have an experience with god, or that most rely on believing the experiences of others?

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

God is not worried about convincing you.    You do nothing to God by not believing.  You do nothing to God by  mocking or rejecting His Son.  You take nothing away from Him at all.   If you don't  want to believe, don't believe.  

 

PS - On a christian forum you might be justified in saying this. You are not on a christian forum, you are on an EX-Christian forum, moreover you are in the lions den.

 

You want to come here spouting your bullshit without anything to back it up, and quoting the bible to people who have read it over and over as if its going to convince them, and expect niceties?

 

You've come to the wrong place bro. Back your assertions with evidence or pack up and leave. 

 

Otherwise stay, and expect your assertions to get challenged, your god to be questioned, and people to respond to posts when you didn't directly address them.

[Realist]

 

 

Do you own a gun?

 

Stranger

... sorry I do not debate WITH bigots ... they just need pointing out for what they are! I pointed you out right at the beginning ... probably because I have LONG experience with your types! 

 

I would not bother debating a flat earth society believer either. Would you?

 

And once again, fundamentalist religion and firearms ARE NOT a good mix! 

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

Let me ask you this....and answer me honestly...just what type of experience would convince you that I had a real encounter with God?   And how would I be able to relay that to you other than just telling you?    And then, why should you believe me?

 

Stranger

A lot of what LogicalFallacy said, for which you reprimanded him because he got in a response before I saw your message.

 

If the god of the bible cares for me as he says he does and knows me as entirely as he says he does, then is it really so wrong for me to want him to reveal himself in a significant and undeniable way? Furthermore, if he knows the ins and outs of how I think better than I myself do, then you would think he ought to know exactly how to convincingly reveal himself to me. If he does not do that when, as an all-powerful god, he is supposed to be able to, then he, as LF said, either does not care or does not exist.

 

You say that it matters not to the bible god whether I turn to him or not, but that book itself says he weeps over my refusal to love him. But as he supposedly can do all things, he for whatever reason does nothing to convince me in a way he would know it would.

 

But I'm off topic of your original question. I can't say exactly what type of experience would make me less skeptical of your god's existence. I won't know until I know what yours was. I can be more specific as to what won't though:

 

1. Reading a particular verse relating to a situation in your life as you needed to hear it (or hearing something in a sermon, conversation, etc). There is too much interpretation when it comes to the bible (given the countless denominations and arguments between christians) that you could have just given your own definition to something because you felt you needed it. Nothing wrong with that to help yourself personally, but needs more when making such a large claim regarding a god.

 

2. Seeing god speak to you in a dream. I've heard many variations of this. We all know dreams can be easily lost or mistranslated within seconds of waking up. You may not have seen what you thought you saw and it occured within your own head. There is nothing for this to be based on except your say so, no matter how genuine.

 

You can say that, over the internet, you think you can't convince me of anything pertaining to god. There are limits since you cannot show me anything in the real world that is with you. This is true. As neither could I if I were the one making a claim different to yours.

 

But without something substantial to base your belief on, it will be very difficult for anyone to want to listen to your claims.

 

I'm not saying I would 100% believe it. Or that personal testimony is entirely faultless. I'm sure I've left out details in mine when I tell it. But it is better than making assertions with nothing else to base it on.

 

That's all I got. I hope you will try to understand why this is needed for your belief to have more credibility.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

PS - On a christian forum you might be justified in saying this. You are not on a christian forum, you are on an EX-Christian forum, moreover you are in the lions den.

 

You want to come here spouting your bullshit without anything to back it up, and quoting the bible to people who have read it over and over as if its going to convince them, and expect niceties?

 

You've come to the wrong place bro. Back your assertions with evidence or pack up and leave. 

 

Otherwise stay, and expect your assertions to get challenged, your god to be questioned, and people to respond to posts when you didn't directly address them.

 

Keep in mind that poster Stranger's God is an imaginary entity in his brain.  He speaks for it, "knows" what it says, does, thinks and feels and has ample experience defending it from challenge or attack.  He uses his imaginary God to project his emotional and psychological needs and desires, as a prop to broadcast feigned superiority and for the endorphin rush.  A challenge to or criticism of his God is a direct personal challenge to or direct personal criticism of poster Stranger.

[Stranger]

 

 

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize there was a law that required that on this forum you only respond if you are directly talked to. My bad.

 

You raised an interesting point about experience, I thought I'd answer honestly. Can't help it if you didn't like the answer.

 

I am not responding for YOUR benefit, I'm responding for the benefit of others reading this. So if they ask the same thing they can see they answers and hopefully make them think more deeply about the subject.

 

 

Again you misread my post. You assumed it was an attack.

 

I said 

"As to how you'd relay that, I don't know, but if your god is the god you claim, then he should know what it would take to convince us. That he hasn't done so suggests that:"

 

So I don't know how one convinces another of an experience they had, but if the bible god exists he would know how to convince anyone. Wouldn't you agree with that?

 

 

 

...

.

.

You thought I was suggesting that to God? Ok. I was raising a talking point.... what is your opinion? Is it better that all have an experience with god, or that most rely on believing the experiences of others?

 

 

 

Yes, your bad.  Why should I believe you will answer honestly?   Because you show a lack of consideration for anothers post?    Seems you have other posts I have answered to which you have yet responded.  Perhaps you should direct your attention to those.   Or...did this strike a nerve somewhere?    What got you so worried?

 

I didn't assume your post was an attack.  I did assume you cannot know what you are talking about.    Yes, that God can convince you is true.  Does He want to?   Apparently not.

 

Again, God doesn't care for your suggestions.  They don't matter.   You don't believe that any have an experience with God.  So your question is null and void.  And, dishonest.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stranger]

 

 

PS - On a christian forum you might be justified in saying this. You are not on a christian forum, you are on an EX-Christian forum, moreover you are in the lions den.

 

You want to come here spouting your bullshit without anything to back it up, and quoting the bible to people who have read it over and over as if its going to convince them, and expect niceties?

 

You've come to the wrong place bro. Back your assertions with evidence or pack up and leave. 

 

Otherwise stay, and expect your assertions to get challenged, your god to be questioned, and people to respond to posts when you didn't directly address them.

 

So what.  Nothing changes what I believe.  My belief doesn't change with the forum I go to.  How silly.  Does yours?

 

I don't expect 'niceties'.    I expect exactly what I have gotten.  

 

Actually I am not your 'bro', unless your Father is God.     The authorities here will inform me that it t is time to leave.  When they do, I will.    

 

I don't mind being challenged.  Do you?   

 

Stranger

 

 

[Stranger]

 

... sorry I do not debate WITH bigots ... they just need pointing out for what they are! I pointed you out right at the beginning ... probably because I have LONG experience with your types! 

 

I would not bother debating a flat earth society believer either. Would you?

 

And once again, fundamentalist religion and firearms ARE NOT a good mix! 

 

Seems you don't want to answer my question.  Do you own a gun?   You   can lie to me if you want.

 

Stranger

[Realist]

 

 

Seems you don't want to answer my question.  Do you own a gun?   You   can lie to me if you want.

 

Stranger

As stated I have NO intention being bothered debating you! If you had any intelligence at all you would realize to this point I had not asked YOU any questions! it was YOU who stated what your interests were!

 

I have noticed YOU pick and choose what you want to debate in these postings! Your dishonesty is certainly showing!

 

A person with 377 posts in half a month obviously does not have a life! I DO!

 

 

[Stranger]

 

A lot of what LogicalFallacy said, for which you reprimanded him because he got in a response before I saw your message.

 

If the god of the bible cares for me as he says he does and knows me as entirely as he says he does, then is it really so wrong for me to want him to reveal himself in a significant and undeniable way? Furthermore, if he knows the ins and outs of how I think better than I myself do, then you would think he ought to know exactly how to convincingly reveal himself to me. If he does not do that when, as an all-powerful god, he is supposed to be able to, then he, as LF said, either does not care or does not exist.

 

You say that it matters not to the bible god whether I turn to him or not, but that book itself says he weeps over my refusal to love him. But as he supposedly can do all things, he for whatever reason does nothing to convince me in a way he would know it would.

 

But I'm off topic of your original question. I can't say exactly what type of experience would make me less skeptical of your god's existence. I won't know until I know what yours was. I can be more specific as to what won't though:

 

1. Reading a particular verse relating to a situation in your life as you needed to hear it (or hearing something in a sermon, conversation, etc). There is too much interpretation when it comes to the bible (given the countless denominations and arguments between christians) that you could have just given your own definition to something because you felt you needed it. Nothing wrong with that to help yourself personally, but needs more when making such a large claim regarding a god.

 

2. Seeing god speak to you in a dream. I've heard many variations of this. We all know dreams can be easily lost or mistranslated within seconds of waking up. You may not have seen what you thought you saw and it occured within your own head. There is nothing for this to be based on except your say so, no matter how genuine.

 

You can say that, over the internet, you think you can't convince me of anything pertaining to god. There are limits since you cannot show me anything in the real world that is with you. This is true. As neither could I if I were the one making a claim different to yours.

 

But without something substantial to base your belief on, it will be very difficult for anyone to want to listen to your claims.

 

I'm not saying I would 100% believe it. Or that personal testimony is entirely faultless. I'm sure I've left out details in mine when I tell it. But it is better than making assertions with nothing else to base it on.

 

That's all I got. I hope you will try to understand why this is needed for your belief to have more credibility.

 

Well, apparently He doesn't want to reveal Himself to you.

 

Where does it say God weeps over your refusal to love Him?

 

My belief doesn't need your credibility.  As I said, my experiences would be treated by you and others the same way as you view Scripture.  So, again, I'll pass.

 

Stranger

 

 

[Stranger]

 

As stated I have NO intention being bothered debating you! If you had any intelligence at all you would realize to this point I had not asked YOU any questions! it was YOU who stated what your interests were!

 

A person with 377 posts in half a month obviously does not have a life! I DO!

 

 

 

Dang, that many.

 

Why are you afraid to answer?

 

Stranger

[Realist]

 

 

Dang, that many.

 

Why are you afraid to answer?

 

Stranger

You obviously cannot read either!!!!

[Stranger]

 

You obviously cannot read either!!!!

 

Well, inform me what I missed.

 

Stranger

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

Well, apparently He doesn't want to reveal Himself to you.

 

Where does it say God weeps over your refusal to love Him?

 

My belief doesn't need your credibility.  As I said, my experiences would be treated by you and others the same way as you view Scripture.  So, again, I'll pass.

 

Stranger

 

 

I can see that the angry christian has come out. I'm trying to have a dialog with you, for my tone has not been the greatest in my previous posts, but you adamantly refuse to allow that to happen. Your refusal to provide anything only weakens your position. Do you want other christians to read all this and fall from the faith? Oh wait, you've already stated how that doesn't concern you.

 

Your belief in god truly is only in your mind if you have no truth to base it on. You may think god is real, but you are only pushing that he does not. You will not go to heaven because no such place exists. Like your god does not exist.

 

I've tried to backtrack from my sarcasm and have a civil conversation with you, but you will not allow that to happen. Because you refuse to move. Clearly you have no basis for your faith because you have so little that you won't even attempt to try and defend why you believe.

 

It is nauseating trying to converse with you. I tried to be nice, but apparently you just don't give a shit to even defend your position other than asserting that you don't need anything. You are the worst kind of unmovable christian.

[Stranger]

 

I can see that the angry christian has come out. I'm trying to have a dialog with you, for my tone has not been the greatest in my previous posts, but you adamantly refuse to allow that to happen. Your refusal to provide anything only weakens your position. Do you want other christians to read all this and fall from the faith? Oh wait, you've already stated how that doesn't concern you.

 

Your belief in god truly is only in your mind if you have no truth to base it on. You may think god is real, but you are only pushing that he does not. You will not go to heaven because no such place exists. Like your god does not exist.

 

I've tried to backtrack from my sarcasm and have a civil conversation with you, but you will not allow that to happen. Because you refuse to move. Clearly you have no basis for your faith because you have so little that you won't even attempt to try and defend why you believe.

 

It is nauseating trying to converse with you. I tried to be nice, but apparently you just don't give a shit to even defend your position other than asserting that you don't need anything. You are the worst kind of unmovable christian.

 

Yes, yes I know.  You tried to be nice and I was so unkind.  It is a familiar tune.  

 

Indeed, I am the worst kind of Christian.  The kind that can't be moved.   

 

I believe I state my position fairly well.    I am satisfied with it.   

 

Stranger

[nutrichuckles93]

Then I would suggest for Realist, Logical Fallacy, and Agnostic to cease replying as the others have. Because you have nothing to say. And we are all wasting our time and energy on talking to a wall. The fact that you are satisfied with being "the worst kind of christian" is abhorrent.

[Realist]

 

 

Yes, yes I know.  You tried to be nice and I was so unkind.  It is a familiar tune.  

 

Indeed, I am the worst kind of Christian.  The kind that can't be moved.   

 

I believe I state my position fairly well.    I am satisfied with it.   

 

Stranger

Here is a little something to help you understand your position .... straight from the Collins Dictionary. 

 

bigot (ˈbɪɡət  )

 

noun

a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

 

 

[Stranger]

 

Here is a little something to help you understand your position .... straight from the Collins Dictionary. 

 

bigot (ˈbɪɡət  )

 

noun

a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

 

 

 

At least I respond to questions addressed to me.  Do you own a gun?

 

Stranger

[Realist]

 

 

My experiences would mean the same to you as Bible verses do.    So, no, I'll pass.

 

 

Stranger

 

 

 ... so you have dodged here!

[Stranger]

 

Then I would suggest for Realist, Logical Fallacy, and Agnostic to cease replying as the others have. Because you have nothing to say. And we are all wasting our time and energy on talking to a wall. The fact that you are satisfied with being "the worst kind of christian" is abhorrent.

 

Perhaps you're abhorrent to me.   Yet I still respond.   

 

But, what ever you like.

 

Stranger