Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

[Realist]

 

 

You are shitting me right now. You are trolling aren't? You can't be serious surely? I just quoted the QURAN (You know, the Islam holy book) about faith being required and you still say Islam requires no faith. Talk about a bias and having blinders on.

 

 

No LF ... this guy IS unfortunately for real! This is why you cannot win a discussion with this type of fundie bigot! I have lived with them for years and learnt there is nothing to be gained by debating with them as they are BLINDED by their faith! The only thing to be gained here is that others will see how dangerous belief can be ... the same thing that makes radical muslims think they are doing god's will when they commit atrocities.

 

Stranger's intelligence can be summed up as follows: HE knows the real god ... and HE knows exactly how to interpret a book which IS loaded with BIG problems! (30,000 plus other sects have struggled with the same book!) If it is in the book it IS true ... if it is science and disagrees with the book ... it is incorrect! A very dangerous position to hold given the fact science IS big enough to stump up and admit when they know they are wrong. This guy ALREADY knows it all ... he has nothing to learn .... not a position I would ever want to find myself in!

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

The only thing to be gained here is that others will see how dangerous belief can be ... the same thing that makes radical muslims think they are doing god's will when they commit atrocities.

 

This is pretty much the reason any of us are debating Stranger. Stranger has already shown a clear refusal to consider anything we say, and also a clear refusal to back up anything he says. So this thread is mainly to the lurkers who may read it and have an "ah ha" moment. 

[Realist]

I am also not a great fan when I see people with BLINDED RELIGIOUS FAITH have as interests in their profile:

 

Interests:Bible study, guns

 

The two do not make for a good mix!

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

Well, isn't that something.  You want me to share something of my life, but you want me to only observe your rules.   That is real sweet.

 

But stupid.   

 

Stranger

 

 

How is it stupid? God has never made himself apparent to me in any way more than vague illusions that were either coincidence or me wanting to see something, so I would like to give you the opportunity to prove me wrong.

 

Unless your god is so weak that he can't do that.

[Stranger]

 

 

You are shitting me right now. You are trolling me aren't you? You can't be serious surely? I just quoted the QURAN (You know, the Islam holy book) about faith being required and you still say Islam requires no faith. Talk about a bias and having blinders on.

 

Stranger where do you get your knowledge of Islam from? For example have you read the Quran and the Hadith in depth? Have you listened to Muslim scholars, visited Mosques, perhaps talked to muslims about faith? 

 

 

 

We established that, but its beside the point. I can get you fairly close to a "law" in that St Paul commands Christians to give sound reasoning for why they believe - which you are failing to do.

 

 

It's impossible to prove a negative. You cannot prove to me that my invisible pink immaterial unicorn didn't create it either. There is no way you can demonstrate that by science. 

 

 

 

Assertion again without evidence. The book says its holy and you believe it because the book says it. How are you defining spiritual? What does spiritual mean to you?

 

 

They concluded that current science pointed to a God http://strangenotions.com/flew/ 

 

 

*Sigh* 

 

 

No I'm saying you try and tell me what I am thinking, and you are wrong, showing that God is not giving your thought, and that your own thoughts are wrong. If you want to keep playing the telepathic seer please do so.

 

 

Do you are saying a man of God is wrong? A person who has had God speak to him personally in an Audible voice, you are arrogant enough to simply dismiss him? I will let you argue that with him!

 

 

Ok... again you are misunderstanding, I'll assume you are not intentionally ignoring what I am trying to show you about science.

 

Let me try again with an explanation and two examples using you and I of how belief and knowledge relate to each other:

 

Science concludes nothing about god. Even if it did a conclusion is not a claim to absolute knowledge which is what you are claiming. I (Me, LF) looks at all the evidence, which includes current science (but I take many other factors into consideration) and I conclude that there is insufficient evidence to say there is a god... any god. I can say with some degree of confidence that the bible is wrong in its claims. However I don't say I know. My official position on god is thus:

 

I don't think there is sufficient evidence to believe there is a god, however I don't know that there is no god. This is what's called an agnostic atheist position. I don't know, but I have no reason to believe.

 

By contrast your position is that you believe in the Biblical god, and you know he exists. This is called a Gnostic theist position.

 

Do you understand not why science does not conclude there is no god? It simply makes statements about reality. That reality does not show up god in it is not sciences problem, its religions problem.

 

 

 

But Stranger, no one has ever cast a mountain into the sea. No one has ever fulfilled Jesus's promise. Does everyone have small faith? And if you don't have faith to move a few atoms from one location to the other, how are you going to have enough faith to change your body from a mortal body to a glorified body? "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

 

No I am not kidding, nor am I trolling.   All religions believe their religion.  Most have certain things, tenets they believe or require to believe.   You can call that their faith or belief.  Islalm requires you to believe certain things, as you pointed out.   But faith in islalm is just another work.   Salvation is not by faith.     In Christianity faith is key.   Faith actually moves God to intervene on the believers behalf.    Faith plus nothing.      So islam does require it's adherents to have faith in allah and other things.   But that faith does not energize.  It is just something along with other things the muslim must do.     In Christianity there is a whole doctrine surrounding faith which moves God.   Which places the Christian in right position with God.   

 

If (1Peter 3:15) is what you are referring to, I am giving you a reason for what I believe.    I am not required to convince you.

 

Yes, it is impossible to prove a negative.  And it is impossible to prove God by scientific means.   It is impossible to prove things of the spirit by things of the physical.  That is akin to sending a plumber to an electrical service call.   

 

Spiritual is 'of the spirit'.   God is Spirit.  Man is created body, soul, and spirit.   Mans body has contact with the physical world.  Mans spirit has contact with the spiritual world.   The Bible is a 'spiritual book' because it is revealed from God and pertains to things spiritual.   

 

If one comes to God because science proves Him, then later a smarter scientist, or more evidence will convince the one who came that there is no God.   If one doesn't come by faith, then they didn't come.   

 

I am saying your pastor is wrong whoever he is.   God exists in reality.   Spirit is real.

 

Science makes investigation and statements about the physical world.  Thus it can never know about God one way or the other.   It doesn't know.   That is all it can say.   And that is all a scientist should say.

 

As I said, Jesus shows the power of faith in His statement.   This is great assurance that our faith grows and what it can attain to.   We probably never will attain to that degree here, but we are just getting started.    As to being translated from mortal to immortal, the little faith I have has already accomplished that.    God will do the rest.

 

Concerning your video I had no sound.  You will have to explain.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stranger]

 

How is it stupid? God has never made himself apparent to me in any way more than vague illusions that were either coincidence or me wanting to see something, so I would like to give you the opportunity to prove me wrong.

 

Unless your god is so weak that he can't do that.

 

Well, if God has not made Himself apparent to you, how should I prove you wrong?   

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

I am also not a great fan when I see people with BLINDED RELIGIOUS FAITH have as interests in their profile:

 

Interests:Bible study, guns

 

The two do not make for a good mix!

 

Why is that?    Do you own a gun?

 

Stranger

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

Well, if God has not made Himself apparent to you, how should I prove you wrong?   

 

Stranger

Give me an example of how god moved in your life in a meaningful (read: easily apparent) way. I'll loosen my definition if that will help, but don't just say you happened to read a certain verse at the right moment. Because that can mean whatever someone wants it to mean.

[Stranger]

 

Give me an example of how god moved in your life in a meaningful (read: easily apparent) way. I'll loosen my definition if that will help, but don't just say you happened to read a certain verse at the right moment. Because that can mean whatever someone wants it to mean.

 

My experiences would mean the same to you as Bible verses do.    So, no, I'll pass.

 

Say a Christian goes to the doctor who is not a Christian.    Other Christians pray for this Christian that God would heal him.   The doctor believes it is him that will bring any healing to this one who is ill, not this Christians God.    But the diagnosis is bad.  Some fatal disease.    The Christians continue to pray.  The sickened Christian goes back to the doctor and there is no sign of the disease.   The Christians praise God for healing this one.   What does the doctor do?   You think he jumps up and becomes a Christian.  Not hardly.   He simply explains it away.  Something he didn't understand.   

 

Stranger

 

 

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

My experiences would mean the same to you as Bible verses do.    So, no, I'll pass.

 

Say a Christian goes to the doctor who is not a Christian.    Other Christians pray for this Christian that God would heal him.   The doctor believes it is him that will bring any healing to this one who is ill, not this Christians God.    But the diagnosis is bad.  Some fatal disease.    The Christians continue to pray.  The sickened Christian goes back to the doctor and there is no sign of the disease.   The Christians praise God for healing this one.   What does the doctor do?   You think he jumps up and becomes a Christian.  Not hardly.   He simply explains it away.  Something he didn't understand.   

 

Stranger

 

 

And you say I assume too much. Sounds like an excuse because you don't have a real answer to give me even if I would believe it.

 

Interesting hypothetical story, can't say I've ever personally heard of that happening. Could you provide such an instance? Otherwise, it is merely a hypothetical to give your assertion some attempted validity. I would have to do personal research to see what any doctor in that situation actually said. If anything like that has ever occurred.

[thereisnoperfect]

 

 

What I am trying to accomplish here is to give what I believe is true about God and Christ as I have learned from Him and the Bible.   That involves only what I know up to this time.  There is much I don't know.   There are questions I have which I have no answer.   There are apparent contradictions which I have no answer for.    But as a believer I pursue to find out answers and continue learning.   

 

So, is your being an ex-christian based on feelings?

 

Stranger

Sure is, in part. 

 

That is, I held onto the Christian belief despite the many problems for a long time because of feelings. And then finally (my story is in the testimonials section) enough built up that the dam broke. I saw enough problems and contradictions that I had a strong feeling of "This cannot be" and then my reasoning brain kicked in and I started digging and making sense of it.

 

Since then, I've engaged in more slow thinking and research, self-doubt and examination. So I've put a lot of thought and research into it. But I also feel comfort in having gotten free of oppressive religion and contradictory nonsense. I'm pleased with where I am, and I value the life I've built as an ex-christian. 

 

Knowing that people work primarily on feelings, I don't exclude myself from that. There's logic involved too, but my brain still works like a human brain. Part of what reassures me about my worldview is the fact that, the more I learn about how people and the universe actually work, the more sense everything makes and the better I'm able to predict how things will work. Before, as a christian, I had to (like you) ignore/reject a lot of our knowledge. Now when I learn something new, it's not a threat to me that I have to control or ignore.

[bornagainathiest]

 

"What I said was you err because you trust what science says as final conclusions.  And they are not.  They are conclusions at this time only.   Open for change." 

 

"You err because you trust science to give you final conclusions, which it can't.   It is always still learning."

 

"You don't trust or expect science to offer final conclusions.    Which means your so called 'evidence' is very 'fluid'."  

 

Hello again Stranger.

I've cited you three times because I'm interested to find out more about your take on science.  

Of the sciences, mathematics is considered to be the one that deals in absolutes.

Therefore, if I give you an example, perhaps you could demonstrate for me the fluidity of this evidence?  

Or show me why the example isn't a final conclusion?  

Or how this example is open for change?

 

Here it is.

 

2 + 2 = 4

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

Do you trust science to give you final conclusions about creation or God at this time?

 

Stranger

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Would you please be so good as to answer my three questions, Stranger?

 

I will, of course, answer yours.

 

But please fulfill my polite request first.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

I have a lot of posts I have responded to.  Repeat your 3 questions.  

 

My question to you is, do you trust science to give you final conclusions about creation at this time.?

 

Stranger

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hello Stranger,

 

My three questions concerned the mathematical formula 2 + 2 = 4.

 

1.  Can you please demonstrate for me the fluidity of the evidence contained within the formula?

2.  Can you please show me why the answer (4) isn't a final conclusion?

3.  Can you please show me how the answer (4) is open to change?

 

I'm asking because I'm interested in finding out more about your take on science.

Especially since mathematics is considered to be the science that deals in absolutes.

Whereby, it's conclusions (like 4 is the sum of adding 2 with 2) is absolute and final. 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

[midniterider]

 

 

My experiences would mean the same to you as Bible verses do.    So, no, I'll pass.

 

Say a Christian goes to the doctor who is not a Christian.    Other Christians pray for this Christian that God would heal him.   The doctor believes it is him that will bring any healing to this one who is ill, not this Christians God.    But the diagnosis is bad.  Some fatal disease.    The Christians continue to pray.  The sickened Christian goes back to the doctor and there is no sign of the disease.   The Christians praise God for healing this one.   What does the doctor do?   You think he jumps up and becomes a Christian.  Not hardly.   He simply explains it away.  Something he didn't understand.   

 

Stranger

 

 

 

Christians go to the doctor? Why?

[Stranger]

 

And you say I assume too much. Sounds like an excuse because you don't have a real answer to give me even if I would believe it.

 

Interesting hypothetical story, can't say I've ever personally heard of that happening. Could you provide such an instance? Otherwise, it is merely a hypothetical to give your assertion some attempted validity. I would have to do personal research to see what any doctor in that situation actually said. If anything like that has ever occurred.

 

No, I have a real answer.  But, as I said I am unwilling to share personal experience with you who will only mock and deride it as you do Scripture.   That is not an assumption.

 

Do your research then.  Get back with me.

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

Sure is, in part. 

 

That is, I held onto the Christian belief despite the many problems for a long time because of feelings. And then finally (my story is in the testimonials section) enough built up that the dam broke. I saw enough problems and contradictions that I had a strong feeling of "This cannot be" and then my reasoning brain kicked in and I started digging and making sense of it.

 

Since then, I've engaged in more slow thinking and research, self-doubt and examination. So I've put a lot of thought and research into it. But I also feel comfort in having gotten free of oppressive religion and contradictory nonsense. I'm pleased with where I am, and I value the life I've built as an ex-christian. 

 

Knowing that people work primarily on feelings, I don't exclude myself from that. There's logic involved too, but my brain still works like a human brain. Part of what reassures me about my worldview is the fact that, the more I learn about how people and the universe actually work, the more sense everything makes and the better I'm able to predict how things will work. Before, as a christian, I had to (like you) ignore/reject a lot of our knowledge. Now when I learn something new, it's not a threat to me that I have to control or ignore.

 

So you're saying 'feelings' kicked in your reasoning?    So, because you 'felt' you reasoned?   Seems odd.   

 

I don't see myself as ignoring knowledge or rejecting knowledge.    I don't see myself as operating on 'feelings'.  

 

If 'feelings' are why you reason, then yes you do have to control or ignore what you believe.   

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

Bornagainatheist

 

If you believe 2+2=4 disproves God or the Scriptures, then show me how.   I am not interested in being led down a pathway.

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

Christians go to the doctor? Why?

 

Because they are sick.  

 

Stranger

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

No I am not kidding, nor am I trolling.   All religions believe their religion.  Most have certain things, tenets they believe or require to believe.   You can call that their faith or belief.  Islalm requires you to believe certain things, as you pointed out.   But faith in islalm is just another work.   Salvation is not by faith.     In Christianity faith is key.   Faith actually moves God to intervene on the believers behalf.    Faith plus nothing.      So islam does require it's adherents to have faith in allah and other things.   But that faith does not energize.  It is just something along with other things the muslim must do.     In Christianity there is a whole doctrine surrounding faith which moves God.   Which places the Christian in right position with God.

 

Stranger you are making proclamations about another religion you know nothing about, and its quite clear you have a bias against Islam (A religion I am no fan of mind you)

 

This is an Islamic site explaining why both faith and works are important https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1165/viewall/grace-faith-and-works/ 

The Muslims go so far as to say that "works are a branch of faith"

 

The Quran also talks about forgiveness of sins etc - it's just that they believe GOD (Allah/Yahweh) forgives the sins not Jesus - they essentially cut out the middle man.

 

I can quite easily claim Christianity is works based:

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 5:16

"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?^[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? ²² Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? ²³ And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”^[g] And he was called the friend of God. ²⁴ You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:20-24

 

So it can be shown, using both the Quran and the Bible, and current consensus from other Christian and Islamic sources that both religions require both faith and works.

 

So again, I ask you, where does your knowledge of Islam come from?

 

 

 

If (1Peter 3:15) is what you are referring to, I am giving you a reason for what I believe.    I am not required to convince you.

 

True. So you are content to come here, among ex-Christians, make grand assertions and proclamations without backing any of it up, and you expect what to happen? You realize everything you've said we have heard before? And once again the Christian (In this case you) fails to back up their claims.

 

 

 

Yes, it is impossible to prove a negative.  

 

Glad we agree.

 

 

And it is impossible to prove God by scientific means.  

 

If God exists in reality then it should be possible to discover him in reality. That we can't suggests God does not exist, or is not in reality. Either way the result is the same from where I stand, because a God that does not exist, and a God that refuses to appear in reality is the same.

 

 

It is impossible to prove things of the spirit by things of the physical.  That is akin to sending a plumber to an electrical service call.

 

You have yet to establish that a spirit world exists - I feel like we are delving into ancient American Indian spirit woo here. Quite possibly where you live plumbers are stupid - here plumbers can do electrical stuff. But even taking your analogy at face value the plumber can still see the electrical wiring, he can touch it, and if he knew what he was doing he'd be able to fix it.

 

 

 

Spiritual is 'of the spirit'.   God is Spirit.  Man is created body, soul, and spirit.   Mans body has contact with the physical world.  Mans spirit has contact with the spiritual world.   The Bible is a 'spiritual book' because it is revealed from God and pertains to things spiritual.

 

Ok, but what is a 'spirit'? No one has ever seen one? And I'm sure you are not talking about ghosts etc.

 

Surely the bible, based on your definitions there is a physical book? The bible is like your body, it is physical, written by physical men using physical means. Also the vast majority of the book pertains to physical events on earth - whereby then do you claim its spiritual?

 

 

If one comes to God because science proves Him, then later a smarter scientist, or more evidence will convince the one who came that there is no God.   If one doesn't come by faith, then they didn't come.

 

So Thomas is lost then? Because he believed  because he saw evidence.

 

 

I am saying your pastor is wrong whoever he is.   God exists in reality.   Spirit is real.

 

You are not worried at all that your pride, and speaking in disagreement with a man of god might cause you to lose your place in salvation? The bible talks about those prideful, boastful people who walk after their own lusts. One thing I was taught was not to speak against a preach/prophet/pastor etc because if they are wrong god will judge them, but if I''m wrong greater the judgement for having spoken out against a man of god.

 

Go read Jude - its a great read. 

 

 

Science makes investigation and statements about the physical world.

 

Yes, we agree

 

 

Thus it can never know about God one way or the other.

 

If God is in the physical world - i.e. in reality, then science could make a statement about god.

 

 

It doesn't know.   That is all it can say.   And that is all a scientist should say.

 

That's all they do say. The ONLY person here saying that science makes proclamations about god is YOU. You built a strawman about what science does so that you could tear down the strawman later on.

 

strawman

1. 1.

   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

 

 

As I said, Jesus shows the power of faith in His statement.   This is great assurance that our faith grows and what it can attain to.   We probably never will attain to that degree here, but we are just getting started.    As to being translated from mortal to immortal, the little faith I have has already accomplished that.    God will do the rest.

 

Then Jesus promise is false. He didn't say I have great faith. He said if YOU say unto this mountain.... greater works than these shall YOU do.

 

Yep - heard that one before. I have faith, God will do the rest.

 

Do you believe in a rapture/translation where you don't die at the second coming but go straight to heaven?

 

 

 

Concerning your video I had no sound.  You will have to explain.

 

So the video was basically a whole bunch of people claiming they had been blessed because they saw the face Jesus in a cracker, a piece of burnt toast, a pattern on the wall etc.

 

You've probably seen claims like these on the news. What is your thoughts about these occurrences and what do you think is happening here? 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

 

Because they are sick.  

 

Stranger

 

Oh, I thought God healed all diseases?

 

But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

 

Bless the Lord, O my soul...Who heals all your diseases

 

Maybe sickness is like the iron chariots thing where some days he can heal, but others he cant?

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

No, I have a real answer.  But, as I said I am unwilling to share personal experience with you who will only mock and deride it as you do Scripture.   That is not an assumption.

I apologize for having offended you on that personal level. But just because I will not accept scripture as a viable answer does not mean that I will tear to shreds someone's profound personal experience. I may question how you know that meant this, but I will not insult one's personal testimony.

 

Obviously, you have the choice to not share. But I do genuinely wonder what real experience has convinced people. And no one has been willing to explain when I try to ask, which helped compound my lack of belief. You won't help your position if you are unwilling to share. I apologize if my tone came off the wrong way. I would actually like to know.

[Realist]

 

 

I don't see myself as ignoring knowledge or rejecting knowledge.    I don't see myself as operating on 'feelings'.  

 

 

Stranger

you are dead right ... you will not see it .... that is exactly what indoctrination and brainwash does to a person! You are caught in that subjective circle!

 

You will NOT see anything that is being said here by others UNLESS you are prepared to step outside that small eggshell you safely find yourself hiding in! Of course you will not ... that is why you are pointless debating with!

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

 

Bornagainatheist

 

If you believe 2+2=4 disproves God or the Scriptures, then show me how.   I am not interested in being led down a pathway.

 

Stranger

 

I have said nothing about disproving the scriptures.

 

You have made some claims (which I have quoted) and now I'm simply asking you about them.

 

Here are my questions again.

 

Please answer them.

 

My three questions concerned the mathematical formula 2 + 2 = 4.

 

1.  Can you please demonstrate for me the fluidity of the evidence contained within the formula?

2.  Can you please show me why the answer (4) isn't a final conclusion?

3.  Can you please show me how the answer (4) is open to change?

[Stranger]

 

 

Stranger you are making proclamations about another religion you know nothing about, and its quite clear you have a bias against Islam (A religion I am no fan of mind you)

 

This is an Islamic site explaining why both faith and works are important https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1165/viewall/grace-faith-and-works/ 

The Muslims go so far as to say that "works are a branch of faith"

 

The Quran also talks about forgiveness of sins etc - it's just that they believe GOD (Allah/Yahweh) forgives the sins not Jesus - they essentially cut out the middle man.

 

I can quite easily claim Christianity is works based:

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 5:16

"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?^[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? ²² Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? ²³ And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”^[g] And he was called the friend of God. ²⁴ You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:20-24

 

So it can be shown, using both the Quran and the Bible, and current consensus from other Christian and Islamic sources that both religions require both faith and works.

 

So again, I ask you, where does your knowledge of Islam come from?

 

 

 

True. So you are content to come here, among ex-Christians, make grand assertions and proclamations without backing any of it up, and you expect what to happen? You realize everything you've said we have heard before? And once again the Christian (In this case you) fails to back up their claims.

 

 

 

Glad we agree.

 

 

If God exists in reality then it should be possible to discover him in reality. That we can't suggests God does not exist, or is not in reality. Either way the result is the same from where I stand, because a God that does not exist, and a God that refuses to appear in reality is the same.

 

 

You have yet to establish that a spirit world exists - I feel like we are delving into ancient American Indian spirit woo here. Quite possibly where you live plumbers are stupid - here plumbers can do electrical stuff. But even taking your analogy at face value the plumber can still see the electrical wiring, he can touch it, and if he knew what he was doing he'd be able to fix it.

 

 

 

Ok, but what is a 'spirit'? No one has ever seen one? And I'm sure you are not talking about ghosts etc.

 

Surely the bible, based on your definitions there is a physical book? The bible is like your body, it is physical, written by physical men using physical means. Also the vast majority of the book pertains to physical events on earth - whereby then do you claim its spiritual?

 

 

So Thomas is lost then? Because he believed  because he saw evidence.

 

 

You are not worried at all that your pride, and speaking in disagreement with a man of god might cause you to lose your place in salvation? The bible talks about those prideful, boastful people who walk after their own lusts. One thing I was taught was not to speak against a preach/prophet/pastor etc because if they are wrong god will judge them, but if I''m wrong greater the judgement for having spoken out against a man of god.

 

Go read Jude - its a great read. 

 

 

Yes, we agree

 

 

If God is in the physical world - i.e. in reality, then science could make a statement about god.

 

 

That's all they do say. The ONLY person here saying that science makes proclamations about god is YOU. You built a strawman about what science does so that you could tear down the strawman later on.

 

strawman

1. 1.

   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

 

 

Then Jesus promise is false. He didn't say I have great faith. He said if YOU say unto this mountain.... greater works than these shall YOU do.

 

Yep - heard that one before. I have faith, God will do the rest.

 

Do you believe in a rapture/translation where you don't die at the second coming but go straight to heaven?

 

 

 

So the video was basically a whole bunch of people claiming they had been blessed because they saw the face Jesus in a cracker, a piece of burnt toast, a pattern on the wall etc.

 

You've probably seen claims like these on the news. What is your thoughts about these occurrences and what do you think is happening here? 

 

 

I know about islam.    Where I know it from is immaterial.   If you want to continue a discussion on islam you will find out how much I know about islam.   I assure you, I am more opposed to it than you.   That is my whole point, that only Christianity makes faith the key.   Islam is nothing but submission and law.    The koran talks about a lot of things the Bible originally said.  Then they distort and twist them.   Muhammad and the koran are nothing but wannabes.   Copying the Christian faith, and twisting it to fit the arab peoples.  No, faith alone saves.  Not works. islam and Christianity are miles apart.   I have already shown there is no difference between James and Paul.    If you missed it, I will repeat it again.  Let me know.  

 

I really don't expect anything.  I am willing to tell you what I believe as a Christian.   Makes for a good discussion.  Sharpens both your and my skills.  

 

God does exist in reality.  You, i.e. science,  have access only to the physical.   Not the spiritual.  Thus science has no access to know about God. 

 

I don't need to establish that the spirit world exists to you for it to exist.   Science can't touch it.  Thus you are closed to only the physical.   Nothing I can do.   Just to play your game with the analogy I gave, if the plumber fixes an electrical problem, then he had better have an electrical  license and be bonded and insured.   Because he can be sued and criminal charges brought against him when a house or building burns down because a plumber did the electrical work.  And if someone dies in the fire, then negligent homocide charges can be brought against him.    But of course if he has a license and training and can do electrical work, then he is also an electrician.   My point was one is an electrician, and one is a plumber.

 

I have told you what 'spirit' is.  Why do you ask me again?

 

The Bible is a 'spiritual book' because it comes from God Who  is Spirit.   The words are 'spiritual'.   (John 6:63)  "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."   The Bible is the spiritual breaking through into the physical realm.   It is a miraculous Book.  The spiritual plays out in the physical world.  That you cannot see it means nothing.   

 

Thomas was already saved.   He allowed his doubts to overcome his faith.   It didn't change his faith.  It didn't change God.     There are many 'unbelieveing believers'.   

 

First of all, concerning this man of God you are speaking of, I don't know him from Adam.    Maybe he is of God, maybe not.   A lot of preachers and people in the church are not of God.  So, no, I am not afraid of saying he is wrong in what he is saying.   God lives in reality.  The spirit world is reality.    I agree, Jude is a great book.  

 

God is spirit, so science cannot make any statement about God.   If all science says,  is it doesn't know, I have no problem.

 

Jesus statement about faith is true.  Just because we as believers fail to reach that standard, doesn't mean it isn't true.   As far as the rapture, that day hasn't come yet.   And yes the faith I have already exhibited is sufficient to be taken in the rapture.  We await God to do His part.    If you have heard it before, good.  Nothing wrong with that.   Yes I believe in the rapture prior to the second coming of Christ.   

 

I view such claims as 'sensational' and not necessary to be made public.     And, I think the audio problem is with  my computer.  Not on your end.   I will try and get it fixed.  

 

Stranger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stranger]

 

 

 

Oh, I thought God healed all diseases?

 

But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

 

Bless the Lord, O my soul...Who heals all your diseases

 

Maybe sickness is like the iron chariots thing where some days he can heal, but others he cant?

 

Well, you thought wrong.  He doesn't.  He certainly can heal all disease.   Whether He will or not is up to Him.  

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

I apologize for having offended you on that personal level. But just because I will not accept scripture as a viable answer does not mean that I will tear to shreds someone's profound personal experience. I may question how you know that meant this, but I will not insult one's personal testimony.

 

Obviously, you have the choice to not share. But I do genuinely wonder what real experience has convinced people. And no one has been willing to explain when I try to ask, which helped compound my lack of belief. You won't help your position if you are unwilling to share. I apologize if my tone came off the wrong way. I would actually like to know.

 

Let me ask you this....and answer me honestly...just what type of experience would convince you that I had a real encounter with God?   And how would I be able to relay that to you other than just telling you?    And then, why should you believe me?

 

Stranger