Thumbelina Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Demonstrate that he is there. Ay, you're being a foolish virgin, I can't give you my oil. You can start by RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 17 hours ago, Citsonga said: Well, that's only true insomuch as an imaginary being can't actually do anything at all. However, the God character in the Bible does lie, according the the fictional stories contained in the Bible. In addition to TheRedneckProfessor's example of God lying to Adam and Eve about dying if they eat of the fruit, we also have God himself directly sending a "lying spirit" (I Kings 22:20-23) and a prediction that God himself will send a "strong delusion" (II Thesselonians 2:11). So much for your notion of lying not being a part of the nature of this God character. God has an expressed will & a permissive will. You described His permissive will; He gives people up to what they truly want to do, but there are consequences. God has to permit all events. Unbelief limits God (Psalm 78:41). He permits the devils to take over those who reject His grace (Proverbs 8:36). Therefore, the bible describes it as Him sending evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 17 hours ago, Citsonga said: So you ignore the ugly parts of nature? How convenient to pick and choose what you want. Yeah, because happily dashing infants on rocks is such a great moral. [/sarcasm] Ah, so you're impressed with a mere story of an alleged dream and interpretation, all written right together at the same time. Wow. I used to be impressed with prophecy as well, though what I thought was strong evidence was the alleged OT prophecies that were supposedly fulfilled in the NT. However, the more I studied that, I started seeing a pattern of the Gospels repeatedly taking OT texts completely out of context in order to fabricate fulfillments of alleged prophecies that were not even remotely talking about what the NT writers claimed they were about. (Of course, it is also true that just because people claimed prophetic fulfillment doesn't mean that they couldn't have made up the stories of fulfillments, but the fact that they manipulated OT texts into things completely different from what they were actually saying totally obliterates the whole notion of impressive messianic prophetic fulfillments.) I'm sorry your studies led to disbelief. Just because the bible is descriptive at times does not mean it's being prescriptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 30, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Thumbelina said: Ay, you're being a foolish virgin, I can't give you my oil. You can start by RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth. In other words, you can't demonstrate that he is there; but you don't want to admit it. You'd rather I just accept it on faith. You are an extremely dishonest person Thumperina. I know you don't realize it; and I pity you for it. But the truth is not in you at all; and mostly you are deceiving yourself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 30, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 30, 2018 49 minutes ago, Thumbelina said: I'm sorry your studies led to disbelief. Just because the bible is descriptive at times does not mean it's being prescriptive. Why are you apologizing for god's failure? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Thumbelina said: Ay, you're being a foolish virgin, I can't give you my oil. You can start by RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth. We've already done that, Thumbelina. The truth, as I see it: Your god is a fictional character, but for some reason you think it's real and are publicly embarrassing yourself by trying to explain it to us through the circular reasoning of using the Bible as evidence for its own claims. If your god were actually real, its behaviours would classify it as an evil being, not a good one. Therefore, you are trying to induce other people to worship an evil god. In the real world, neither you nor your alleged god have even the smallest amount of supernatural power. You mistake coincidences and uncommon natural events for miracles, good fortune for answered prayers, and unanswered prayers for "God's will." Worst of all, you are impugning the honour of all of us here when you say things like "...they're scared of God because they don't understand His love." Those are fighting words, and I will give you exactly one chance to retract that statement and to offer an unconditional, unqualified apology. Your oil has gone rancid and should be safely disposed of at a household hazardous waste facility. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Thumbelina said: The law (10 commandments) was written for Moses by God's own hand on Sinai. The law is eternal as God Himself. The added laws, like the ceremonial laws written by Moses, were ADDED because the people were transgressing the perfect 10. The perfect ten was the umbrella over those. The handwriting of ordinances were nailed to the cross but the ten commandments, written in stone, are eternal. The principles are eternal. If the law was eternal then there would be no reason to add anything to it. God is all knowing so God would have already known what would or wouldn't happen later and should have just covered the ceremonial laws in the first place. If the 10 commandments are so perfect then why do they recognize the existence of other gods? The first commandment is to worship Yahweh first before the other gods. Seems kind of silly if Trinity is the only God that exists. 2 hours ago, Thumbelina said: Genesis 4:7 happened before Moses existed. God told Cain sin lieth at his door. So Moses wrote down a bunch of things that happened before Moses was born and Moses had no way of telling the difference between a hallucination and the word of God. Maybe Genesis is a myth. 2 hours ago, Thumbelina said: As God how will you explain to dumb people who do not quite understand the heineousnes of sin & it's origin, when the only frame of reference they have are what they observe? Again this is just one more example of God failing. God didn't have to make humans dumb. If God had made humans not dumb then this problem wouldn't exist. 2 hours ago, Thumbelina said: God told Adam & Eve not to eat or they will be like God, knowing good & evil, except their knowledge was experiential. So God gave Adam and Eve a test when God knew they didn't have the knowledge necessary to understand what they were doing. Again, God could have created much smarter humans who would have already had what it takes to pass the test. God failed. You can't assert that God has all the power, all the knowledge and none of the responsibility. 2 hours ago, Thumbelina said: Job, the first book written, mentions Satan. Satan, serpent ... that fiend is a stinker! It seems the oral tradition was possible in those days prior to Moses writing down God's word. And yet in the book of Job, God casually makes a bargain with Satan that God knows will kill innocent people just so that God can show off. And then God gives Satan permission to kill innocent people in order to test the bargain. These are not the actions of a loving God, nor the actions of a righteous or just God. Do you have an answer for any of these issues? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 19 hours ago, Thumbelina said: Hello . Red neck said: "In what bible does Leviticus come before genesis? Because god was accusing people of sin long before he ever said a god damn word about any fucking law." Therefore, the chronological order statement was relevant. The law (10 commandments) was written for Moses by God's own hand on Sinai. The law is eternal as God Himself. The added laws, like the ceremonial laws written by Moses, were ADDED because the people were transgressing the perfect 10. The perfect ten was the umbrella over those. The handwriting of ordinances were nailed to the cross but the ten commandments, written in stone, are eternal. The principles are eternal. Genesis 4:7 happened before Moses existed. God told Cain sin lieth at his door. What is sin in that context? Cain did open the door wide to sin, what did he do that was considered sin? Lucifer,-light bearer- became Satan-adversary. The bible uses figurative language, metaphors, analogies etc., a LOT. As God how will you explain to dumb people who do not quite understand the heineousnes of sin & it's origin, when the only frame of reference they have are what they observe? God told Adam & Eve not to eat or they will be like God, knowing good & evil, except their knowledge was experiential. Job, the first book written, mentions Satan. Satan, serpent ... that fiend is a stinker! It seems the oral tradition was possible in those days prior to Moses writing down God's word. Typical Thumbelina mumbo jumbo. You ramble on and on and on but don't even come close to answering the questions. You yourself had said that there cannot be sin without the Law, yet according to your beloved book, the Law was not given until the time of Moses. None of the people before him had the Law. Since this issue was raised, all you've done is dance around it and try to sidetrack the discussion. 19 hours ago, Thumbelina said: God has an expressed will & a permissive will. You described His permissive will; He gives people up to what they truly want to do, but there are consequences. God has to permit all events. Unbelief limits God (Psalm 78:41). He permits the devils to take over those who reject His grace (Proverbs 8:36). Therefore, the bible describes it as Him sending evil. No, we were talking about God himself actively lying, God himself actively sending a lying spirit, and God himself actively sending a great delusion. This is not God just sitting back and not intervening in someone else's actions. Your beloved book has GOD HIMSELF doing those things. Do you really think you're being a good witness for your God when you do this silly dance and dishonestly skirt the subject? 19 hours ago, Thumbelina said: I'm sorry your studies led to disbelief. Just because the bible is descriptive at times does not mean it's being prescriptive. Once again you offer up mumbo jumbo to dance around and skirt the subject. Do you really think that it's good testimony to completely ignore the issues that have been raised and instead just offer up silly little quotes you learned in church that have nothing to do with what you're responding to? Are you really that dense? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted May 30, 2018 Moderator Share Posted May 30, 2018 7 hours ago, Thumbelina said: The bible is consistent & cohesive; one just has to prayerfully study it & learn how to cross reference the texts. The bible has many different authors, yet it harmonizes. There was no collusion & there's agreement. For God so loved the world that those who become adept at cross-referencing his texts may avoid eternal damnation. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 30, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 30, 2018 9 hours ago, Thumbelina said: I say ditto, Pops. Believing a mosquito can "evolve" into an elephant - given enough time- & everything came from nothing with no intelligence behind it, may just be part of a person staying in their comfort zone. Atheistic apologetics much? I don't think many people truly believe that deep in their hearts; they're scared of God because they don't understand His love. ... His justice too. Neither I nor anyone else BELIEVES in science. People either accept observable phenomena or they ignore it in favor of a magical explanation. I can say that I simply don't yet have all the answers, but there is evidence that points to likely scenarios. Faithful believers start with their conclusion that they already have the answer and ignore all evidence to the contrary. The evidence for evolution is undeniable, so much so that many who still must believe in that Old Time Religion have integrated evolution into the creation story much like the heliocentric model was eventually accepted by the church. Some are still able to turn a blind eye to the evidence in front of them. It is sad to see the hold superstition still has on us in the 21st Century. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eowynesque Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 6 hours ago, ThereAndBackAgain said: For God so loved the world that those who become adept at cross-referencing his texts may avoid eternal damnation. Gotta keep heaven free of illiterates. For god so loved the cross-referencers... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Eowynesque said: Gotta keep heaven free of illiterates. For god so loved the cross-referencers... ...that he gave them Strong's Concordance...? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eowynesque Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 17 minutes ago, disillusioned said: ...that he gave them Strong's Concordance...? That whosoever uses it shall have it all figured out in the year 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Eowynesque said: That whosoever uses it shall have it all figured out in the year 2018 and shall spew her ideas on ExChristian.net. It is known. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 20 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: In other words, you can't demonstrate that he is there; but you don't want to admit it. You'd rather I just accept it on faith. You are an extremely dishonest person Thumperina. I know you don't realize it; and I pity you for it. But the truth is not in you at all; and mostly you are deceiving yourself. The bible simply declares that God exists; its contents, rightly understood, assists in showing the veracity of the claim. I'm sorry, I keep using bible-speak; the bible says taste & see that God is good, I tasted it but you have to taste it for yourself. I already told you that to understand God's love you have to prayerfully search the scriptures. The bible says faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. Based on the comments here in these forums, & elsewhere, I can see why some people felt disillusioned & then they apostatized-- became ex-Christians.. Many people ARE terrified of hell even though they claim unbelief & disbelief; I spoke to some of them. They were taught that God will burn people forever & ever & ever. If I truly believed the bible teaches that I would abandon God too. The bible says God exalts His Word MORE than His name/title. His Word shows His character; God is interested in others reflecting His character more than Him showing off His omnipotence. God gave those type of scenarios in the bible & the miracles did not change many of them. The people followed Jesus primarily for the food & the miracles (see John 6); they misunderstood His Word & those same people who SAW His miracles shouted crucify to have Him killed. God mostly chooses to use reasoning about the morality of His laws to attract people because He cannot force worship; for people to live with a Holy God they have to be like Him & abhor sin. I'm just trying, in my own way, to explain what I understand based on what the bible teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 20 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Why are you apologizing for god's failure? In 1 peter 3:15 it says to give an apologetic for the hope we believers have. Did you forget the topic of this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 21 hours ago, Thumbelina said: Ay, you're being a foolish virgin, I can't give you my oil. You can start by RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth. I keep getting a 'divide by zero' error. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 20 hours ago, Astreja said: We've already done that, Thumbelina. The truth, as I see it: Your god is a fictional character, but for some reason you think it's real and are publicly embarrassing yourself by trying to explain it to us through the circular reasoning of using the Bible as evidence for its own claims. If your god were actually real, its behaviours would classify it as an evil being, not a good one. Therefore, you are trying to induce other people to worship an evil god. In the real world, neither you nor your alleged god have even the smallest amount of supernatural power. You mistake coincidences and uncommon natural events for miracles, good fortune for answered prayers, and unanswered prayers for "God's will." Worst of all, you are impugning the honour of all of us here when you say things like "...they're scared of God because they don't understand His love." Those are fighting words, and I will give you exactly one chance to retract that statement and to offer an unconditional, unqualified apology. Your oil has gone rancid and should be safely disposed of at a household hazardous waste facility. I'm sorry, ma'am. I spoke generally. Many people are scared of a fire & brimstone God. Sometimes fear comes out in the form of anger. Maybe on both our parts we shouldn't generalize but use 'many, some or most' in our assertions? Is that a fair compromise? Edit: I retraced the conversation, I did not speak generally. I know some of these conversations may be hard for some but from a Christian perspective, atheists & the like are like that Harry Truman guy who got destroyed by the volcano. We need to sound the alarm at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, midniterider said: I keep getting a 'divide by zero' error. I'll pray for you, hope you eventually get it. Even though many of you are blasphemous you can be nice & funny too. It'll be a shame for you to lose out on eternity, that way you can be with God & explore the universe & not just speculate about it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 The ex-Christians dont want to be Christians anymore, Thumb. Time to move along. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Thumbelina said: I'll pray for you, hope you eventually get it. Even though many of you are blasphemous you can be nice & funny too. It'll be a shame for you to lose out on eternity, that way you can be with God & explore the universe & not just speculate about it . I'll cast a ward of protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 31, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2018 28 minutes ago, Thumbelina said: The bible simply declares that God exists; its contents, rightly understood, assists in showing the veracity of the claim. I'm sorry, I keep using bible-speak; the bible says taste & see that God is good, I tasted it but you have to taste it for yourself. I already told you that to understand God's love you have to prayerfully search the scriptures. The bible says faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. Based on the comments here in these forums, & elsewhere, I can see why some people felt disillusioned & then they apostatized-- became ex-Christians.. Many people ARE terrified of hell even though they claim unbelief & disbelief; I spoke to some of them. They were taught that God will burn people forever & ever & ever. If I truly believed the bible teaches that I would abandon God too. The bible says God exalts His Word MORE than His name/title. His Word shows His character; God is interested in others reflecting His character more than Him showing off His omnipotence. God gave those type of scenarios in the bible & the miracles did not change many of them. The people followed Jesus primarily for the food & the miracles (see John 6); they misunderstood His Word & those same people who SAW His miracles shouted crucify to have Him killed. God mostly chooses to use reasoning about the morality of His laws to attract people because He cannot force worship; for people to live with a Holy God they have to be like Him & abhor sin. I'm just trying, in my own way, to explain what I understand based on what the bible teaches. Merely asserting these claims does not constitute substantiation of them. I'll wait... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 31, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2018 23 minutes ago, Thumbelina said: In 1 peter 3:15 it says to give an apologetic for the hope we believers have. Did you forget the topic of this thread? There's a difference between apology and apologetics. Are you forgetting my advice that you get a dictionary? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 15 hours ago, Citsonga said: Typical Thumbelina mumbo jumbo. You ramble on and on and on but don't even come close to answering the questions. You yourself had said that there cannot be sin without the Law, yet according to your beloved book, the Law was not given until the time of Moses. None of the people before him had the Law. Since this issue was raised, all you've done is dance around it and try to sidetrack the discussion. No, we were talking about God himself actively lying, God himself actively sending a lying spirit, and God himself actively sending a great delusion. This is not God just sitting back and not intervening in someone else's actions. Your beloved book has GOD HIMSELF doing those things. Do you really think you're being a good witness for your God when you do this silly dance and dishonestly skirt the subject? Once again you offer up mumbo jumbo to dance around and skirt the subject. Do you really think that it's good testimony to completely ignore the issues that have been raised and instead just offer up silly little quotes you learned in church that have nothing to do with what you're responding to? Are you really that dense? There's a thread somewhere in the den that mentioned the simplicity of the Christian religion or some sort of such. It is simple. I said that God's laws always existed, Mr. Sinai was not where it started. Look, the people were in bondage to pagans for centuries & they lost sight of the law of God that was passed down from their fathers. Sinai was basically a reiteration of what they should have known. Satan sinned/lied from the beginning- he's the father of lies- could he have been accused of lying if God's law did not forbid being a false witness? Pharaoh ADMITTED that he sinned against God BEFORE the Israelites left Egypt; could he have sinned if there was no law that he broke? Jesus used the method of asking questions to reason with people; it's a good teaching tool. What should one do if one uses that method with biblical questions that are are posed but the asker won't answer the questions? Again, could God accuse anybody of any sin if there was no law that they broke? If there was no law against wearing neon yellow ribbons in public could a police officer arrest someone just for wearing said ribbons? To rightly understand the bible, precept must be compared to precept. In logic something cannot be true & false at the same time in the same context. Contextualization has been a major problem when trying to understand the bible for many unbelievers. I cannot force them to study it the way it says to (see Isaiah 28:10). However, what is in my power to do is pray that God can give enlightenment through His providence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: There's a difference between apology and apologetics. Are you forgetting my advice that you get a dictionary? I had to go back & trace the convo'. You sarcastically asked why I had to apologize for God's failure. I answered that I'm giving an apologetic. Edit: I did give an apology (a regretful acknowledgement of an offense) & an apology (apologetic). I was validating your feelings, man. The apologetic was to show that you have misunderstandings that caused disillusionment (?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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