Recurring fears

[Lerk]

17 hours ago, Kat34 said:

Have you ex fundamentalists seen this before?! Got it from a link from this article, which blames a literalist interpretation of the bible on bringing about a crisis in faith. https://postbarthian.com/2018/03/14/david-bentley-hart-paul-denied-historicity-old-testament-1-corinthians-10-11/

This was a result of me doing lots of reading up (favourable and otherwise) on David Bentley Hart, a critic of the “new atheists”. 

 

 

I have not seen that before, but I think it's pretty accurate. Had I not been raised as a fundamentalist, I might never have realized there was a huge problem with the Bible.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Kat, if thinking about all of this has become an obsession, is going nowhere, and is interfering with daily life, you may need to take a breather and let things sink in.  If you are unable to do so, please talk with your doctor.

[TABA]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

Kat, if thinking about all of this has become an obsession, is going nowhere, and is interfering with daily life, you may need to take a breather and let things sink in.  If you are unable to do so, please talk with your doctor.

 

I agree with letting things sink in.  Your mind has been undergoing a 'rewiring' or 'reprogramming' in a sense.  That will likely continue even if you stop thinking about belief and unbelief.  Most of us experienced that, and it does get better!  But yes, you may need professional help too...

[Kat34]

2 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

This is why I think Marlene Winells book is so helpful because she discusses the psychological control mechanisms with the fear. When you understand how it operates you're more objective and can recognize it when it's happening with you. For example I had thoughts similar to Kat's, but when they occurred I knew to acknowledge that they were just part of the process of my brain using the same old manipulative patterns, therefore I paid no attention to them and gave them no validity. Eventually they disappeared. Her book really helped normalize all the feelings and stages one goes through with deconversion for me, so I was less prone to panic or confusion. The exercises she presents are also really helpful. I highly recommend it to people who are going through this and feel confused/disoriented or are struggling with the feelings. And if you're in therapy that book will assist your therapist as well. 

I think I need to explore this, thank you for reminding me. This afternoon I read some helpful articles by Valerie Tarico and might get her book too. 

[Kat34]

Thank you all of you so much. I have nobody at all I can discuss this with in person and it is a great help to me psychologically to have this community as a sounding board. Also because most of you are in the States and behind timezone wise, it means I often get your messages while I’m up with the baby doing the lonely night feeds and it’s nice to have that “company”! 

[TruthSeeker0]

13 minutes ago, Kat34 said:

Thank you all of you so much. I have nobody at all I can discuss this with in person and it is a great help to me psychologically to have this community as a sounding board. Also because most of you are in the States and behind timezone wise, it means I often get your messages while I’m up with the baby doing the lonely night feeds and it’s nice to have that “company”! 

Kat, we also have a discord chat group if you're interested in joining. There's an area there for serious discussions as well. 

[Kat34]

40 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Kat, we also have a discord chat group if you're interested in joining. There's an area there for serious discussions as well. 

Ooh what’s a discord chat group?!

[Joshpantera]

13 minutes ago, Kat34 said:

Ooh what’s a discord chat group?!

 

 

[Kat34]

@Joshpantera @TruthSeeker0 Fab thank you, will check that out 

[Kat34]

I came across this earlier today in one of Valerie Tarico’s articles and it really resonated. According to the Christian message, my beautiful baby girl and her older brother were born, as the default position, destined for hell. I feel the same way about that as the Hindu ladies described here.  

[Stargazer95]

56 minutes ago, Kat34 said:

I came across this earlier today in one of Valerie Tarico’s articles and it really resonated. According to the Christian message, my beautiful baby girl and her older brother were born, as the default position, destined for hell. I feel the same way about that as the Hindu ladies described here.  

 

Oh, that's good. I love that. Some Muslims, too, while not going quite that far, are also horrified at the idea of original sin. They believe every person is born as a blank slate, and are therefore responsible for their own actions, rather than being handed a death sentence at birth because their great-great-great-great whatever grandparents ate some bloody fruit. It's extremely unfair, not to mention twisted. I used to follow the Facebook page of a guy called the Dirty Christian. He has t-shirts for sale with the slogan "I'm a terrible person" printed on the front. I mean, gee, Christians accuse everyone else of putting humans on a pedestal. But sometimes they do the opposite. It gets kinda old hearing you're a dirty, rotten sinner with no worth all the freaking time (not that I did, of course. Thankfully my parents were loving people and never drilled that into me). But that's basically at the heart of Christianity. 

[TruthSeeker0]

26 minutes ago, Stargazer95 said:

 

Oh, that's good. I love that. Some Muslims, too, while not going quite that far, are also horrified at the idea of original sin. They believe every person is born as a blank slate, and are therefore responsible for their own actions, rather than being handed a death sentence at birth because their great-great-great-great whatever grandparents ate some bloody fruit. It's extremely unfair, not to mention twisted. I used to follow the Facebook page of a guy called the Dirty Christian. He has t-shirts for sale with the slogan "I'm a terrible person" printed on the front. I mean, gee, Christians accuse everyone else of putting humans on a pedestal. But sometimes they do the opposite. It gets kinda old hearing you're a dirty, rotten sinner with no worth all the freaking time (not that I did, of course. Thankfully my parents were loving people and never drilled that into me). But that's basically at the heart of Christianity. 

This is why I think the fundamentalists are actually more true to the Christian faith in some ways. At least they don't cover up the dark core of the issue, they hound it into your consciousness every moment. You're dirty and contaminated and all you can do is praise this loving God who saved you. It's so utterly twisted. I really liked the way Winell discusses reclaiming what she calls your inner child in this context from the abused one. Those who grow up with this sense of worthlessness can have problems with self esteem in general etc. I don't think it's any great surprise that many people on these forums have talked of how their mental health drastically improved when they deconverted. 

[Stargazer95]

12 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

This is why I think the fundamentalists are actually more true to the Christian faith in some ways. At least they don't cover up the dark core of the issue, they hound it into your consciousness every moment.

 

And they would agree. They look down their noses at anyone else who calls themselves Christians but aren't so big on the inherent wickedness thing. 

 

14 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Those who grow up with this sense of worthlessness can have problems with self esteem in general etc. I don't think it's any great surprise that many people on these forums have talked of how their mental health drastically improved when they deconverted. 

 

I don't doubt it. Fundamentalist Christianity is one big ball of guilt, shame, and self-loathing, mixed in with a bunch of Jesus loves yous. It's contradictory in a way, but hey, that's Christianity for ya. 

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, Stargazer95 said:

 

And they would agree. They look down their noses at anyone else who calls themselves Christians but aren't so big on the inherent wickedness thing. 

 

 

I don't doubt it. Fundamentalist Christianity is one big ball of guilt, shame, and self-loathing, mixed in with a bunch of Jesus loves yous. It's contradictory in a way, but hey, that's Christianity for ya. 

 

A bipolar religious view that prays on many bipolar people? 

 

We've had no shortage of experience recently, in real time, with what christianity can do to people struggling with bipolarism. Specifically fears of hell. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Original sin is an excelent example of a self fulfilling prophecy that gives the religious "police" a job for life.  The originators were experts at emotional manipulation.  They also realized that low self esteem people would be susceptible to flamboyant, boisterous, narcissistic saviors, dressed in fine robes to lead them, so they created clergy to be their policemen.  The fine robes they got to wear was a big draw for cross dressing men!  (By the way.  It was a men's only club.  No women allowed)  Subservient women could follow, but couldnt be leaders.  Why?  Because it was a woman who originally led man astray.  They also realized these poor self esteemed people would be willing to pay for their own salvation, allowing the religious police to live in fancy houses with gold decorations.  And they could use the children of these poor people to get their sexual jollies.

 

They denied the masses of people an education, killed off their religious competition calling them pagans, and made heretics of scientists and others that disagreed with their doctrine.  Sadly, there are still people in our age of enlightenment that don't see through their fallacy, and continue to follow them in one form or another.

 

Sorry if I went a little overboard here.  When I get to thinking of this stuff, I tend to get carried away.

[Stargazer95]

34 minutes ago, Weezer said:

(By the way.  It was a men's only club.  No women allowed)  Subservient women could follow, but couldnt be leaders.  Why?  Because it was a woman who originally led man astray. 

 

A big part of it, also, I think, is that the ancient world was very man-centric. This is another clear mark that the bible is a product of its time. After all, what is the logical reason to ban women from speaking or teaching in church? There is no reason. We're not inferior, or less intelligent. There are plenty of women who make excellent teachers. The reason is simply that it just wasn't an acceptable thing back then, and the bible was heavily influenced by the culture in which it was written

[Joshpantera]

6 hours ago, Stargazer95 said:

 

A big part of it, also, I think, is that the ancient world was very man-centric. This is another clear mark that the bible is a product of its time. After all, what is the logical reason to ban women from speaking or teaching in church? There is no reason. We're not inferior, or less intelligent. There are plenty of women who make excellent teachers. The reason is simply that it just wasn't an acceptable thing back then, and the bible was heavily influenced by the culture in which it was written

 

Because of Paul, basically. Or Pseudo Paul. 

 

That's another red flag about all of this. It's literally MAN made and a product of the times. The condoning of slavery too. It's so obviously man made and yet that can be so hard for a struggling person to embrace 100%. Even though it's very obvious to others. 

[wadori]

Wow!  You

[wadori]

Well, I am indeed having computer problems!  Sorry for that "abbreviated" entry.  My computer words about as well as god has in my life!  Now that I typed up almost a complete response and lost it all, let's try again…!!! (And if anyone knows how to either go back and edit or else delete an entry please let me know. I'm not seeing how to do so.)

Wow.  You have really got a lot of responses already, but I will go ahead and add one more.  I left Christianity when I was in my late 20s basically just because it simply wasn't working.  I tried to tell others they need to have a "relationship" with god, but where was he in my own life? There simply wasn't any reality to it, so eventually when something doesn't work you give up and go in a different direction.  That doesn't mean it was a simple "cut and dry" decision.  It took me years to work through it all.  I think I have finally arrived at the point that I don't worry about the Bible's claims of heaven and hell and the possibility of suffering for all eternity in a lake of fire. (How could I have believed such stuff? I now ask myself.)  But I am now 60 years old, so it has taken a long time.  I hope it doesn't take so long for you.

I am not sure what will make the transition easier, except that I think you have taken a really god step by joining this forum.  (I am new also, so I can't give you any glowing testimonial yet.)  I think another important thing would be to find people in your own community, if you haven't already, who are non-theistic and perhaps come from a similar background as yourself who can share their experiences.  I didn't have much personal support when I was breaking away.  I'm sure it would have been much easier if I had had that.  In the city where I now live there are several meet-up groups that are secular or atheistic in nature. You might try meet-up.

Also, you are welcome to view some stuff that I have online.  I have a list of reasons why I don't believe in religious beliefs, beyond it simply not working in my life.  Feel free to read them at www.wardricker.com/whynogod.php.  I have also compiled a list of contradictions in the Bible that I have found as I have gone through to process of writing a (soon to be published, I hope) parody of the Bible.  You can view that at www.wardsbooks.com/contradictions.pdf.  I think you would find it hard to take the Bible's claims seriously, about heaven or hell or whatever, after reading that.  I hope those will be helpful.

Good luck in your journey.

[Kat34]

@wadori thank you for your thoughts, you’re right it would definitely be helpful to meet like minded people. Thanks also for sharing your clearly very long thought out reasons for not believing. The only thing I’d say is that I’m coming from a less fundamentalist perspective than the rest of this online community, so most of the Christians I know would accept evolution as a reality and not take all of the stories of the Flood etc. literally. So sometimes I think maybe I haven’t given it a fair enough hearing, but for me I can’t get past the idea of original sin and of hell, which they do believe in, even if they don’t think it is a lake of fire. 

 

@Weezer I don’t know why a teaching about original sin would be needed, surely it’s enough to talk about universal sin and that all of us fall short (it’s easy to see that all of us do wrong things, after all), without needing to make it something inherited? 

 

I’ve been thinking about morality in the absence of a Christian framework. Why do you think it is, given the principle of survival of the fittest, that most people care about protecting the weak and vulnerable?

 

I’ve also got a question about the OT and the violence that’s often raised as an objection. Bear in mind I’ve not actually been part of a Christian community for a long time and don’t actually know the bible all that well... how do people from different Christian traditions explain god sanctioning or committing the violence that’s described? I always remember my mum talking about context whenever I might struggle with something in the bible and she would then explain it to me, but I can’t remember what the explanation was for this. I know Christians must have one though. 

[Stargazer95]

2 hours ago, Kat34 said:

I’ve also got a question about the OT and the violence that’s often raised as an objection. Bear in mind I’ve not actually been part of a Christian community for a long time and don’t actually know the bible all that well... how do people from different Christian traditions explain god sanctioning or committing the violence that’s described?

 

They give a number of different reasons, depending on the incident in question. If possible, the first route they would take is, "it isn't what it looks like" and they'll try to deny or change what the text seems to be clearly saying. For example, there's an incident in 2 Kings 2:23-24 where Elisha curses some kids for calling him "baldy", and two bears come out and maul 42 of the children. The Christians will argue that they weren't children, but young adults, and that this was a public demonstration against God's messenger, rather than just some harmless insults. 

 

But if that method is clearly not possible, then it's on to plan B: justification. In this case, they will admit that the passage is what it looks like, but they'll try to justify why a good God would do or allow this. For example, in Numbers 31, there's a horrible scene where God commanded Israel to take revenge on the Midianites. All the men were put to death, and the women and children taken captive. Moses was angry that they had allowed the captives to live, and so ordered the execution of the non-virgin women, and, even worse, all the little boys, and said the virgin girls could be kept for themselves. The Christians can't deny this, and so they'll argue that the boys were killed because they might one day take revenge on the Israelites, or they were spared the worse fate of growing up under dominion of sin or in captivity, or that they would find it harder to adapt to the Israelite way of life than the girls would. They might even say that God's God so he can take whatever life he chooses to take. Of course, none of these reasons are good enough for the slaughter of innocents, but the Christians will try it anyway. 

 

Often they will use both methods to explain away a hideous passage - denying/changing coupled with justification.

 

Sometimes these explanations work okay-ish, but other times they fall apart. It just depends on the text in question. 

 

I'd also like to point out that you're probably not going to see the average pastor or church leader tackling these issues. Most Christians either don't know about these passages, or ignore them completely. You usually have to go to the apologists to get any kind of in-depth response to them. 

[Kat34]

@Stargazer95 thank you, that’s really helpful. Yes I can imagine those passages might not get preached about in church much!! Do you mind if I ask what your Christian background is/ was, was it very Evangelical/ fundamentalist or a bit less extreme?

[Stargazer95]

31 minutes ago, Kat34 said:

@Stargazer95 thank you, that’s really helpful. Yes I can imagine those passages might not get preached about in church much!! Do you mind if I ask what your Christian background is/ was, was it very Evangelical/ fundamentalist or a bit less extreme?

 

My family are evangelical/fundamentalist through and through, but have varying stances on the more literal interpretations of the bible. My mum and her side of the family are very literal, being young-earth creationist, every word is literally true and means exactly what it says, kind of Christians. My dad, on the other hand, is a little more relaxed on certain things. He's open to old-earth creationism, believes Noah's flood may have been local rather than global, views the Tower of Babel story as more symbolic than literal, doesn't believe in the rapture, and doesn't believe that Sunday is a Sabbath day. However, he kept his views pretty quiet when I was a kid, so I did grow up with a more literal view on things. 

[Stargazer95]

My dad and I actually came to a lot of the same conclusions on things, and had many theological/biblical discussions (agreeable ones) when I was still a believer. He was also very supportive of my evidential approach to the faith, which my mum and brother didn't really get. So that was nice. We haven't really talked about my change in beliefs yet, but he'll probably take it better than my mum, who was all like, "That's from the devil" and "That's straight from the pit of hell" when I hinted that I didn't believe anymore and wasn't sure the bible was true. 

[Stargazer95]

7 hours ago, wadori said:

(And if anyone knows how to either go back and edit or else delete an entry please let me know. I'm not seeing how to do so.)

 

You have to reach a minimum of 25 posts I think, and then you'll be able to edit your responses and like other people's comments.