Josh "The Panther" Versus Edgarcito "The End3" : A Grudge Match, No Holds Barred

[TheRedneckProfessor]

In this corner, weighing in as an agnostic atheist, with several title debates under his belt, the Panther from South Florida.... @Joshpantera

 

And in this corner, coming on strong as a longtime believer in something even he doesn't fully understand, from somewhere in "Don't Mess With Texas ".... @Edgarcito

 

LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!

 

The rules are simple: each of you must state your case for superior spirituality based on what you actually believe.  Last man standing will be proclaimed the undefeated spritual champ (of this match, anyway).  The rest of you, get your asses to the Peanut Gallery.

[Edgarcito]

Agnostic suggests Josh has no Standard and might make shit up as he goes.  Say something you can back up and remain consistent Josh.  Trusting John and Chris to be fair moderators/judges.  I'd also like to hire S as my counselor, and MWC as my quasi-mystic expert witness.  Go Josh. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Joshpantera, endgarcito3 has enlisted counsel and called upon an expert witness.  If said entrants are acceptable to you, then I will allow it.  Otherwise, the motion will be overruled. 

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@Joshpantera, endgarcito3 has enlisted counsel and called upon an expert witness.  If said entrants are acceptable to you, then I will allow it.  Otherwise, the motion will be overruled. 

 

He can throw anything at me that he can conceive of. Him, his counsel, whoever. I'm going to use citation and make this interesting. And I have had voluntary counsel offered as well. Which I will cite and use if they approve of it. 

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Agnostic suggests Josh has no Standard and might make shit up as he goes.  Say something you can back up and remain consistent Josh.  Trusting John and Chris to be fair moderators/judges.  I'd also like to hire S as my counselor, and MWC as my quasi-mystic expert witness.  Go Josh. 

 

You're about to take a serious lesson in being self consistent, End3! 

 

And you will be the one, no doubt, grasping at straws trying to make up what you can as you attempt to follow me into debate.  

[Joshpantera]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!

 

The rules are simple: each of you must state your case for superior spirituality based on what you actually believe.  Last man standing will be proclaimed the undefeated spritual champ (of this match, anyway).  The rest of you, get your asses to the Peanut Gallery.

 

As most readers probably know, I was raised in the SDA denomination. I am a descendant of William Miller the 19th century preacher responsible for the "Great Disappointment of 1844." I come from a long line of zealous christians convinced of their biblical superiority in this world. I was raised (as most christians I would assume) on the belief that christianity, but more importantly, Seventh Day Adventism (our denomination), is the only true religious belief and position in the whole world. Everyone else is wrong. I was born among the elite who have it right and who are superior students of the bible.

 

Many of you reading may have had a similar upbringing in different denominations. I would like everyone who can relate to this upbringing to have the opportunity to follow how and why I ventured out away from these premises of (1) christian spiritual superiority and (2) denominational superiority within christianity. I assume that End-garcito was raised or believes similar in terms of believing that christianity is the only correct religion in the world. But I'll allow him to make his own case. 

 

1) I believed christainity is superior spiritually. 

2) I stopped believing that christianity is superior spiritually. 

3) I discovered what it means to go above and beyond christianity's spiritual concepts and outlook. 

4) I now believe that christianity has an inferior, as opposed to superior, spiritual outlook. 

 

These are my beliefs that I am more than capable of arguing with citation and my own personal input, thoughts, experience, and considerations. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

30 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

He can throw anything at me that he can conceive of. Him, his counsel, whoever. I'm going to use citation and make this interesting. 

In light of this acceptance, you will both be allowed three (3) "phone-a-friends" to use at any time during the debate.  To use a "phone-a-friend," simply tag the name of the member whose input you'd like, and then state the question, comment, or idea you want their input on.  The tagged member will then be allowed to respond, in this thread, with one (1) post addressing the point in question.  Sound fair?

[Edgarcito]

Hold the train please.  I don’t recall, nor can I find, where I make the claim of spiritual superiority.  It’s my understanding that Josh is claiming spiritual superiority through a knowledge based approach.  Please point out where I am mistaken and will be happy to continue.

[Joshpantera]

32 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Hold the train please.  I don’t recall, nor can I find, where I make the claim of spiritual superiority.  It’s my understanding that Josh is claiming spiritual superiority through a knowledge based approach.  Please point out where I am mistaken and will be happy to continue.

 

We can address christianity first. It doesn't have to be about you specifically. Do you believe that christianity is the superior, dominant, or true religion in the world? 

 

Yes or no? 

 

Previously you wrote this to me. 

 

Edarcito wrote: "Woke up to more of your shit today Josh ... and your ego as well.  Let me put this very plainly that even you might understand.  You failed spiritually with me through the post which angered me.  This tells me that in all of your intellectual prowess, you don’t actually comprehend spiritual....i.e., you didn’t become like God as the serpent touted to Eve by eating the fruit of that tree....no insight, no help....no spiritual.  Just a self aggrandizing douche bag with nothing to debate.."

[Edgarcito]

21 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

We can address christianity first. It doesn't have to be about you specifically. Do you believe that christianity is the superior, dominant, or true religion in the world? 

 

Yes or no? 

 

Previously you wrote this to me. 

 

Edarcito wrote: "Woke up to more of your shit today Josh ... and your ego as well.  Let me put this very plainly that even you might understand.  You failed spiritually with me through the post which angered me.  This tells me that in all of your intellectual prowess, you don’t actually comprehend spiritual....i.e., you didn’t become like God as the serpent touted to Eve by eating the fruit of that tree....no insight, no help....no spiritual.  Just a self aggrandizing douche bag with nothing to debate.."

Please don’t attempt to direct my responses Josh.  And two, you please need to make your case.  The quote attached is a good example in my mind, based on an reasonably accepted definition, that you failed spiritually with me given your knowledge base.  Please make your case...

[Joshpantera]

29 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Please don’t attempt to direct my responses Josh.  And two, you please need to make your case.  The quote attached is a good example in my mind, based on an reasonably accepted definition, that you failed spiritually with me given your knowledge base.  Please make your case...

 

So then you are the one who is non-committal in this instance? You won't commit to answering a simple yes or no question. I can proceed anyways, though. And I will. 

 

It is well known that christians believe the content of John 14:6, "No one goes to the Father but through me."

 

And you either are or are not a christian who believes in the bible. Not excluding John 14:6. This is interpreted by just about everyone in christianity as saying that there's no way to god, or heaven if you will, except through jesus. And through jesus means through christianity which is the religion of jesus. That puts everyone else who is not christian outside of the scope of John 14:6. 

 

Many go even further, however. They interpret their own denomination or personal interpretation of christianity into the "Me" part of John 14:6. So that there's no way to god or heaven except through, the SDA church, or whatever other denomination someone belongs to. Because it is taught that the denomination IS the only true remnant church descended from jesus in the bible. And people are led to believe that they are of a special group of believers who alone have the only truth in the world. 

 

You either are, or are not one of these people. When I was a christian, I subscribed to the above. Only christianity is true and only my group are the true believers. 

 

Which means you either are or not a christian. We have you labeled christian. If that's wrong, we can change it and stop recognizing you as an authentic christian believer. 

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

So then you are the one who is non-committal in this instance? You won't commit to answering a simple yes or no question. I can proceed anyways, though. And I will. 

 

It is well known that christians believe the content of John 14:6, "No one goes to the Father but through me."

 

And you either are or are not a christian who believes in the bible. Not excluding John 14:6. This is interpreted by just about everyone in christianity as saying that there's no way to god, or heaven if you will, except through jesus. And through jesus means through christianity which is the religion of jesus. That puts everyone else who is not christian outside of the scope of John 14:6. 

 

Many go even further, however. They interpret their own denomination or personal interpretation of christianity into the "Me" part of John 14:6. So that there's no way to god or heaven except through, the SDA church, or whatever other denomination someone belongs to. Because it is taught that the denomination IS the only true remnant church descended from jesus in the bible. And people are led to believe that they are of a special group of believers who alone have the only truth in the world. 

 

You either are, or are not one of these people. 

 

Which means you either are or not a christian. We have you labeled christian. If that's wrong, we can change it and stop recognizing you as an authentic christian believer. 

I do believe in the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit Josh.  Let me ask this please sir....what is your definition of spiritual, and please, through knowledge, define it.  Ultimately to me, this is an important point of “knowledge based”.

[Joshpantera]

@TheRedneckProfessor

 

Before I go further, I will make my first call to @WalterP. 

 

Now that I have something of a committed answer, Walter would probably like the opportunity right now to respond to what he has been observing in the Eden thread previous to this debate. He shared some interesting facts with me that do pertain to "knowledge based" assessments of biblical spirituality and spiritual standards. 

 

16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I do believe in the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit Josh.  

 

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

Edarcito wrote: "Woke up to more of your shit today Josh ... and your ego as well.  Let me put this very plainly that even you might understand.  You failed spiritually with me through the post which angered me.  This tells me that in all of your intellectual prowess, you don’t actually comprehend spiritual....i.e., you didn’t become like God as the serpent touted to Eve by eating the fruit of that tree....no insight, no help....no spiritual.  Just a self aggrandizing douche bag with nothing to debate.."

 

Walter can step in for a moment and make his assessment of Egarcito's spiritual positioning with respect to the bible. 

[Joshpantera]

33 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Let me ask this please sir....what is your definition of spiritual, and please, through knowledge, define it.  Ultimately to me, this is an important point of “knowledge based”.

 

I will address your question right after Walter's post. And start making my case from then on.

 

Right now I will set forward a definition and get this moving. We need a universal type of definition of spirituality that encompasses the whole of human spiritual experience and capability. Some tend to take it further and deeper than others. And we can analyzes the varieties of what is considered, "spiritual," by various human beings. By summarizing something that applies to pretty much everyone involved. 

 

Christians are but one of many types of spiritual thinkers with definitions of spirituality that generally are not universal in scope. So we can treat christian spirituality as one of many subsets of the total human spiritual overview: 

 

Spirituality involves the recognition of a feeling or sense or belief that there is something greater than myself, something more to being human than sensory experience, and that the greater whole of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature.

 

Further comparative reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

[Edgarcito]

Josh, again, in my mind you need to define spiritual with a natural definition... knowledge per your claim.

[Joshpantera]

23 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Josh, again, in my mind you need to define spiritual with a natural definition... knowledge per your claim.

 

The universal definition works as a natural definition. Do you mean a definition that a naturalist like myself can use? 

 

48 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

Spirituality involves the recognition of a feeling or sense or belief that there is something greater than myself, something more to being human than sensory experience, and that the greater whole of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature.

 

1) There is something greater than myself, something more to being human than sensory experience...

 

 

There is the whole, and it's existence itself. The totality. We can call it the universe and surrounding multiverse and infinite and eternal space. However we frame it, it's what is greater than our physical body and ego conscious experience. Our experience is that of a finite experience from the perspective of looking outward at existence from a central point of perspective - from a human body looking outward at the totality.

 

The totality is always 'greater' than the experience from a centralized, finite perspective looking outward at things. That's what ego amounts to. Every experience from a centralized point of perspective outward, is an ego experience. Beyond that would be the experience of being everywhere all at once. Just to give some clarification of what I see as ego or not ego. 

 

 Whether atheist or theist, there is always the situation of something greater than ourselves. Something greater in which we are interconnected parts of an infinite and eternal totality. For supernaturalist's they envision it one way as spiritual realms and such. For naturalist's, well, I've just explained another way of envisioning it through merely scientific oriented means. 

 

 

2) ...and that the greater whole of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature. 

 

Depending on perspective the whole is viewed as cosmic or divine. We can count it as cosmic in my case in leave supernatual divinities out for reasons that will be explained. I view it as cosmic, and spirituality broken down to simplicity is the recognition of one's connection, or 'interconnected existence' as a finite experiencing being within the sum total infinite and eternal cosmic whole - the totality which goes beyond the categories of being and non-being (this will be expanded upon later). 

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

The universal definition works as a natural definition. Do you mean a definition that a naturalist like myself can use? 

 

 

1) There is something greater than myself, something more to being human than sensory experience...

 

There is the whole, and it's existence itself. The totality. We can call it the universe and surrounding multiverse and infinite and eternal space. However we frame it, it's what is greater than our physical body and ego conscious experience. Our experience is that of a finite experience from the perspective of looking outward at existence from a central point of perspective - from a human body looking outward at the totality.

 

The totality is always 'greater' than the experience from a centralized, finite perspective looking outward at things. That's what ego amounts to. Every experience from a centralized point of perspective outward, is an ego experience. Beyond that would be the experience of being everywhere all at once. Just to give some clarification of what I see as ego or not ego. 

 

 Whether atheist or theist, there is always the situation of something greater than ourselves. Something greater in which we are interconnected parts of an infinite and eternal totality. For supernaturalist's they envision it one way. For naturalist, well, I've just explained another way of envisioning it. 

 

2) ...and that the greater whole of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature. 

 

Depending on perspective the whole is viewed as cosmic or divine. We can count it as cosmic in my case in leave supernatual divinities out for reasons that will be explained. I view it as cosmic, and spirituality broken down to simplicity is the recognition of one's connection, or 'interconnected existence' as a finite experiencing being within the sum total infinite and eternal cosmic whole and totality which goes beyond the categories of being and non-being. 

Josh, seriously.... there is no way out of this discussion for you.  If there is, you might please hurry because I can’t even come close to understanding how you intend to define spiritual to a mutual satisfaction...and then define superior.  I appreciate your zeal though.  I believe that about you.

[Joshpantera]

14 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Josh, seriously.... there is no way out of this discussion for you.  If there is, you might please hurry because I can’t even come close to understanding how you intend to define spiritual to a mutual satisfaction...and then define superior.  I appreciate your zeal though.  I believe that about you.

 

This can be done. 

 

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

Spirituality involves the recognition of a feeling or sense or belief that there is something greater than myself, something more to being human than sensory experience, and that the greater whole of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature.

 

Do you believe that the father, son, and holy spirit are greater than yourself?

 

Do you believe that there's something more to being human than just sensory experience? 

 

And that the greater whole of heaven and such is divine in nature? 

 

This is set up in such a way that it literally applies to everyone involved. Including christians. If you answer "yes" to the three questions above then the universal definition of spirituality does apply to you. It dubs for naturalist's or supernaturalist's. Christians or spiritual minded atheist types. 

 

 

[WalterP]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

@TheRedneckProfessor

 

Before I go further, I will make my first call to @WalterP. 

 

Now that I have something of a committed answer, Walter would probably like the opportunity right now to respond to what he has been observing in the Eden thread previous to this debate. He shared some interesting facts with me that do pertain to "knowledge based" assessments of biblical spirituality and spiritual standards. 

 

 

 

Walter can step in for a moment and make his assessment of Egarcito's spiritual positioning with respect to the bible. 

 

Thank you Josh.

 

James 3 : 9 & 10.  

 

9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 

10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be.

 

James 3 : 5 & 6.

 

 5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 

6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

 

Galatians 5 : 19 - 25.

 

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 

20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 

21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 

25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

Colossians 4 : 5 & 6

 

 5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 

6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone

 

In the Eden thread I noticed that Edgarcito 'salted' his posts with insults and foul language.  Examples can be cited if required.  The above quotes from scripture make it abundantly clear that Christians who have been spiritually blessed by god do not use impure and filthy language.  They have crucified their fleshy passions and desires because they live by the spirit.  It therefore follows that anyone using dirty and insulting language does not live by the spirit and does not keep in step with god's spirit.

 

If Edgarcito has claimed to be 'spiritual' in a Christian sense, then his claim is not matched by his behaviour.  His unspiritual behaviour reveals that he is not spiritually alive in Christ, but spiritually dead to Christ.

 

 

Should it be pointed out that Josh has also used such words and such language, he has no case to answer.  JoshPantera is not a Christian and as such is not bound by what the bible says about true Christian spirituality. 

 

But End3 / Edgarcito is a Christian and as such he is bound by what the bible says about true Christian spirituality.

 

True Christian spirituality is defined by scripture and nothing revealed by the spirit of god can contradict it.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

This can be done. 

 

 

Do you believe that the father, son, and holy spirit are greater than yourself?

 

Do you believe that there's something more to being human than just sensory experience? 

 

And that the greater whole of heaven and such is divine in nature? 

 

This is set up in such a way that it literally applies to everyone involved. Including christians. If you answer "yes" to the three questions above then the universal definition of spirituality does apply to you. It dubs for naturalist's or supernaturalist's. Christians or spiritual minded atheist types. 

 

 

I'm about to stop participating Josh unless you would just like me to pretend there exists a "spiritual".  I can more appreciate NOW Ex Christians participating with Christians and their beliefs.  But you need to stick to what you've claimed.....ONE, because I have heard countless times as a Christian that I need to prove God's existence, the Holy Spirit's communication, prayer efficacy, etc.

 

Let's look at your three questions.....question two specifically.  All I have to my understanding is natural, sensory experience, but you nor I have any means of defining a mechanism that connects us to something greater outside of a physiological relationship.  Regardless of me agreeing with the questions, you will please need to define a commonality in our connecting/relating to something greater, and then propose why your experience has made your connection more whole/complete/superior. 

[Edgarcito]

43 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Thank you Josh.

 

James 3 : 9 & 10.  

 

9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 

10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be.

 

James 3 : 5 & 6.

 

 5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 

6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

 

Galatians 5 : 19 - 25.

 

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 

20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 

21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 

25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

Colossians 4 : 5 & 6

 

 5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 

6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone

 

In the Eden thread I noticed that Edgarcito 'salted' his posts with insults and foul language.  Examples can be cited if required.  The above quotes from scripture make it abundantly clear that Christians who have been spiritually blessed by god do not use impure and filthy language.  They have crucified their fleshy passions and desires because they live by the spirit.  It therefore follows that anyone using dirty and insulting language does not live by the spirit and does not keep in step with god's spirit.

 

If Edgarcito has claimed to be 'spiritual' in a Christian sense, then his claim is not matched by his behaviour.  His unspiritual behaviour reveals that he is not spiritually alive in Christ, but spiritually dead to Christ.

 

 

Should it be pointed out that Josh has also used such words and such language, he has no case to answer.  JoshPantera is not a Christian and as such is not bound by what the bible says about true Christian spirituality. 

 

But End3 / Edgarcito is a Christian and as such he is bound by what the bible says about true Christian spirituality.

 

True Christian spirituality is defined by scripture and nothing revealed by the spirit of god can contradict it.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You know, you're welcome to rigidly define me as this describes, but I think you know better...

[Joshpantera]

On 4/11/2021 at 7:53 PM, Edgarcito said:

Let's look at your three questions.....question two specifically.  All I have to my understanding is natural, sensory experience, but you nor I have any means of defining a mechanism that connects us to something greater outside of a physiological relationship.  Regardless of me agreeing with the questions, you will please need to define a commonality in our connecting/relating to something greater, and then propose why your experience has made your connection more whole/complete/superior. 

 

The commonality is that your belief in god amounts to a belief in something greater than yourself. Do you believe you are a living soul? Is there any connection between the father, son, and holy spirit and a living soul? Anything going on there? Or nothing happening? No connections there to mention? 

 

We can stop wasting time there and move on if you'd prefer. And just continue making the points. 

 

Here's the situation. The biggest problem that I've found with christian spiritual ideas and claims is that they're indirect. Connections are there, as I've just mentioned, but as you've demonstrated they tend to be confusing and foggy. According to the bible, christians are the body of christ and jesus and the father are one and the same. These connections are there to be noticed. Someone was toying around with them it would seem. It's been dumbed down to the public for lack of a better explanation. 

 

But they aren't presented as blatantly obvious as they are in Vedic traditions and Buddhist philosophy that extends from the Vedic. Advaita Vedanta is another good example of clear, up front, straight forward connections between what is considered god, totality, and the absolute, and humanity at large. Now certain mystical branches of judaism, christianity, and islam, do come closer and more open like the eastern mystical traditions. Those connections can be noted as well. 

 

I've argued this with christian apologists for several decades. 

 

They claim to have a superior spirituality to other faiths in the world. They claim to have the one and only way to god via John 14:6. And I tell them that in John 10:30 and 14:6 they have an obscured version of better defined eastern mysticism.

 

A short video below outlines the connections: 

 

 

The translators interpolated the verse. He is "a" son of god. They changed it to "the" son of god. As if there were only one. 

 

This represents a degraded type of rendition of what is the mystical realization world wide, across many religions. And perhaps, considering the interpolation issue, the original writers were actually speaking in accord with what other mystics in the world have also expressed within their own respective religions. Al Hallaj the Sufi mystic declared, " I am my beloved!" Similar issue. And we can go around finding similar issues of a mystical realization about the connections between god and man across many different people of the world. 

 

This is common to humanity. It's a logical deduction as much as it is a mystical realization. 

 

Because if your god is considered omnipresent, then your god has to equate to everything that exists - space, matter, soul, or anything suggested to exist. This gets into a persons mind, into their subconscious. It can work around in someone's subconscious mind and come back out as the logical deduction that can be made: 

 

You and the god are one!

 

Sanskrit: "Tat Tvam Asi!" 

 

This can be intellectualized just as easily as it can be experienced through intuition. And it has been, for centuries. 

 

So there are different levels of how these spiritual insights are played out and expressed through religions. As it happens, christianity has the content but it's been obscured by the orthodox tradition that took control and brought christianity into the 21st century. The more mystical versions were stomped out early on. And had we not found these old gnostic gospels around here and there in recent centuries, we wouldn't know very much about them. But they did exist. And they did go further into the mysticism that is outlined in cryptic form in John. 

 

The point being, there's a sliding scale going on here in terms of spiritual insight and awareness. Orthodox thinkers slide the scale hard to the ignore or obscure the interconnections between god and man side of the scale, while mystical thinkers slide the scale hard to the embrace the interconnections between god and man side of the scale: 

 

God and man separate ------------------------------------------------god and man are one. 

 

Literalistic thinkers / denotation / exoteric--------------Symbolic thinkers / connotation / esoteric

 

 

[Edgarcito]

Tell me Josh what you would like me to do at this point if anything.  It’s frustrating for me, almost to a level of anger, to participate.  Your knowledge base is probably impressive but appears little to do with being spiritual.  

[Edgarcito]

So I’m clear on my understanding of this debate... Josh was going to demonstrate his spiritual superiority via a knowledge based approach.  Then when pressed for specifics all I’m getting are no specifics but more of a file cabinet, top drawer, files 1-4 outlining spiritual classification.  
 

We can move forward, and I’ll be glad to share my thoughts but with stipulation that he failed wholly in his initial effort.

[Edgarcito]

I’ll tell you what Josh, let's do this, I’d like you not to disclose all you know, but disclose what you personally have had and believe to be spiritual connections/experiences.  And then I’ll reciprocate.  And then I’ll explain my take on spirituality.  Thx.