Josh "The Panther" Versus Edgarcito "The End3" : A Grudge Match, No Holds Barred

[Joshpantera]

On 5/9/2021 at 3:05 PM, Edgarcito said:

Even IF we accept the theoretical connectivity claimed, for the seventeenth time, there is no mechanism between the gluons and a proposed mechanism for spirituality in the human body.  Surely if we claim science for connectivity, than we can be consistent and use science to define the thing we are claiming. 

 

I've told you many times, we ARE the universe incarnate. That's the mechanism for spirituality. A recognition of what we actually are trying to come through and bubble up through religious and spiritual experience. Then science shows us what we really are. It matches up to what mystics have been feeling about interconnectivity for centuries. It's a self recognition coming through. Interpreted by you and others off in various directions towards whatever their personal biases happen to be. 

 

On 5/9/2021 at 3:05 PM, Edgarcito said:

I guess over the years, I have had many instances of confirmation bias

 

No kidding....

 

On 5/9/2021 at 3:05 PM, Edgarcito said:

but have also felt the same Spiritual feelings prior to becoming a Christian. 

 

Because of what I've explained now several times over. And what I've explained again just above. They aren't christian feelings, they're human feelings! Interpreted away by you as christian feelings. According to the cultural bias that you subscribe to. 

 

On 5/9/2021 at 3:05 PM, Edgarcito said:

My feelings were always inner strength, inner resolve, adrenaline surges, goose bumps.....elevated emotions , associated with what I deemed a Spiritual connection.  Still get them today when I find unexpected confirmation bias or relationships I haven't seen before....believing it to be the Holy Spirit dispensing insight.  It's fun and I feel connected to God that I haven't been forgotten by the universe, Josh, that seemingly doesn't give a rat's rear.  But I find these confirmations everywhere, and specifically pointing to what the Bible alludes to.  I've brought several to ExC over the years.  My ten or so has far exceeded Josh's one, that he doesn't really understand himself.

 

Excellent demonstration for proving my main point. 

 

What is inside of you, Ed? What do all of these 'inner's' amount to? I've led a horse to water, will it now drink? 

 

You've been poking around and playing with self recognition, self realization, and self awareness. But your personal biases continue to block out a full experience. This is glass house obvious at this point, Ed. Look at where this debate as led. Where are we right now? What's going on? 

 

On 5/9/2021 at 3:05 PM, Edgarcito said:

I think I'm gonna opt for all of that and the associated feelings....even though I can't define the Source or a physiological mechanism over rejoicing in theoretical physics... and trying to convince myself that I am one with the universe when I am in FACT a distinct arrangement of matter.

 

And matter is what? 

 

What is a distinct arrangement of matter? 

 

I can't make the horse drink. I can only lead the horse to the water. You have to take the next step on your own. Or back away and not drink. 

 

On 5/10/2021 at 10:00 AM, Edgarcito said:

I'm understanding Josh saying spiritual cognition is C(s) = gluons x reality.

And we are going to separate spiritual cognition from routine cognition C(r) = reality.

 

There's an eastern saying, "spirit, matter, no separation." 

 

What happens when you get down to the deeper levels of human spiritual insight and understand the interconnected nature of reality and existence, all cognition IS spiritual cognition. The mundane isn't non-spiritual. It's not a pick and choose situation.

 

Existence takes on the view of a divine play, as Alan Watts used to put it. Where are the characters are part of the same underlying reality, expressed through all of the various characters. Going to work isn't non-spiritual. As was the case with Sri Krishna Menon, policing people and seeing the horrors of life wasn't non-spiritual. The discipline is that everything is spiritual in the sense that it's one big play where all of the contributing characters are playing their respective roles in the play. 

 

That's a type of metaphor for an interconnected reality.

 

Drink it in if you will. Try and wrap your mind around it if you like. There aren't separate and distinct cognitions going on, like a christian would envision it. Where it's something like one day a week at church you feel spiritual during a service and the rest of the time mundane with spiritual feelings on the back burner.

 

This is entirely different. It's where you have attained knowledge otherwise, let's say. And that knowledge stays with you all the time. Whether or not you happen to be having heightened emotional sensations all the time. The knowledge and awareness of this interconnected reality is there all the time, the emotional feelings about the interconnected reality can come ago according to provocation or happenstance. 

 

Like off in the desert, I have felt large spiritual feelings just being there. And understand why deserts play a role in certain mythologies. The same with mountains and rain forests. The connection to the natural world can come out as very emotional feelings. Goose bumps. Strong energy feelings in the pineal gland region from meditation. These emotional spiritual experiences can be provoked. 

 

But the knowledge is always there, steady. And doesn't come and go and in the same way as subjective emotional feelings do. It's not something that you forget once you've attained it. It's with you always, even unto the end of the world as it were......

 

On 5/10/2021 at 10:00 AM, Edgarcito said:

And it's the Christian who is condescending?  Really? 

 

That's been the case from as far back as we can find in the history of christianity. 

 

Those dam jews, if they just accepted the truth? What idiots! They'll have hell to pay! And the non-believing pagan gentiles too!! It's probably the most condescending religion, and by extension, spirituality ever invented. And it WAS invented, Ed....

 

Just about all antisemitism today can be traced directly back to christianity and it's offshoot, islam...

[Edgarcito]

How about spirituality is just belonging and acceptance.  This guy is part of reality that he can't explain and get's a woo feeling.  And this guy is saved from the despair that is reality and gets a woo feeling.

 

I can see them as different Josh.  I can't see one as superior.  

 

So maybe this is really just about acceptance.  You're accepted by the universe, I'm accepted as a moral person or at least a resolve to be.  

 

And I gather that you have been arguing superiority by enrollment numbers?  Isn't that what you are ultimately touting as superior?  A form of ad populum maybe?

 

Granted I gave your books a cursory reading as I'm a readers digest kind of guy, but let's try and dwell on the qualities within the two groups.  Maybe this will yield "superior".

 

Now that you have admitted that the mechanism is reality itself, and you don't really have a specific physiological mechanism that produces the woo, then again, let's just move on to the intent of the woo.

 

Proceed please.    

[Edgarcito]

Let's talk about the dilemma of eating plants and animals, and cutting down trees for shelter, bug spray, etc.

[Edgarcito]

We can't just exist and qualify our existence as spiritual without the spiritual having something that defines spiritual in the form of existence that we occupy.  Your job now, specifically Josh, is tell me what that means.  I understand that you have already made that attempt several posts back.....but I'd like you to please make another attempt.  Thx.

[Edgarcito]

And you can't really blame me for the gluon thing....You posted the gluon video claiming that here's the omniscience of sorts, but then have no mechanism that produces the woo other than saying well, we have woo, and we are all connected,  so it's there somewhere.  That's a yellow flag on the field.  Had you said at the outset that Ed, I don't have the physiology of woo, then we could have moved on along time ago.  YOU sir, made science a part of the discussion but then decided it just "points to", yet is somehow my fault for holding your feet to the fire.  Crappy consistency Josh.  It was always your inconsistent use science in your discussion....

 

[Edgarcito]

Let's call ourselves perturbations in the fabric.  Please don't try to convince me that my perturbation is a rock or a mouse or an ant.  

 

What does mine mean?  What does yours mean?  Are we only tumors labeled humanity in the cosmic fabric?  Does this scenario match the woo feelings that you are getting?  Because essentially that's all we are Josh......a tiny clusterfuck of perturbations in the fabric......that in the grand scheme of things will wash right back in the fabric and something, somewhere, might look at us as an artifact.  

 

So there's that....your woo feelings don't match.  

 

And let me finish while I'm here.  If you define any qualifications, then you will ultimately have to admit that your spiritual qualifications have no standard and that grace and forgiveness are not a bad choice.  

 

But if you would like to continue the discussion for Walter's lurkers...., by all means.

 

[Edgarcito]

Now I find myself more realizing why the Japanese sand gardens.....contemplating the fabric and perturbations thereof.  So now I'm Ed that wakes up in the morning with the freedom to exist and disturb the fabric as I see fit.  A freedom.  How do I want to zap the universe today.  I picture myself as Bill Murray at this point..... 

 

Very succinctly Josh, you have nothing superior to argue.   

[Edgarcito]

You bunch of goofballs....you are now saying I'm a bad person for "crapping all over Josh's spirituality"  He himself is saying it's a choice of how to walk through life.  YOU are ASSIGNING some value to our existence. HOW in the world are you doing that???????  

 

Sometimes I think I'm up against a team of junior level thinkers.  Like today.

 

Dammit Chris....intervene in your words and tell these boneheads how they are missing the point.

 

And look DB, I'm older and high on caffeine atm.  If I don't write this stuff down while my brain is putting it in or as it becomes in order, then I run a risk of losing it.  There was no intent to not let Josh respond.  I was just thinking out his side of the argument and writing it down as it evolved.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Maybe take a break today, Ed.  Eat a Snickers.  Try again when you're in a better mood.

[Edgarcito]

6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Maybe take a break today, Ed.  Eat a Snickers.  Try again when you're in a better mood.

Look dude, I'm not in a bad humor.  I'm just playing out Josh's argument in my mind.  All of what I have said are valid thoughts that he needs to respond to....  Get one of the resident physicists to assign meaning to our specific perturbations.  Not a chance that they will if they have any integrity.  You know this, I know this, Walter knows this.  But Josh want's to keep playing meaningless bullshit games that are totally outside of his own definitions.  

 

All of this brought to you in part by Serta Perfect Sleeper.  Good Day!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

42 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Look dude, I'm not in a bad humor. 

You should not mistake my suggestion for concern about your well-being.  In fact, you should not mistake it for a suggestion at all.  Shore it up.  I ain't asking.

[Edgarcito]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You should not mistake my suggestion for concern about your well-being.  In fact, you should not mistake it for a suggestion at all.  Shore it up.  I ain't asking.

You are mischaracterizing, misdiagnosing my mood.  I adequately explained my progression.  If you don't like it, not my damn problem.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

26 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You are mischaracterizing, misdiagnosing my mood.  I adequately explained my progression.  If you don't like it, not my damn problem.

Since your days as End3, you've been on this website whining about wanting civilized discourse.  Now you have the opportunity to have it.  Quit acting like a prick pickled in cunt brine. 

 

This will be the last time we talk about this.  

[Joshpantera]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

We can't just exist and qualify our existence as spiritual without the spiritual having something that defines spiritual in the form of existence that we occupy.  Your job now, specifically Josh, is tell me what that means.  I understand that you have already made that attempt several posts back.....but I'd like you to please make another attempt.  Thx.

 

These are rhetorical answers, do not try and answer them today as you've been warned not to do. Take a break, get back to all of this later.

 

You don't seem to understand the simplicity. What makes anything spiritual in the first place? Why do people say that they feel spiritual about something?

 

Spend some time on that. No need to rush ahead. Tell me what's spiritual about anything and why it's labeled as spiritual. This is how I can try and tell you what it means. This doesn't have to be a rush and probably shouldn't be. 

 

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

YOU sir, made science a part of the discussion but then decided it just "points to", yet is somehow my fault for holding your feet to the fire.  Crappy consistency Josh.  It was always your inconsistent use science in your discussion...

 

It's all in writing. I'm holding to my positions. Which are internally consistent. I understand how reality breaks down. And from that basis I see everything as arising and subsiding out of the base structure of existence itself. Everything that I see as "me" has on unbroken interconnection not only to the entire universe, but to the murky past as well, back into the mystery base substance out of which the entire universe has it's origins. Origins which are not fixed, just reference points where we can begin to try and visualize existence. 

 

Going forward in time to the potential of becoming a space traveling civilization, wouldn't you think that a shifting of spirituality towards a knowledge based, fact based, view of interconnection throughout the universe makes more sense against the idea of towing along long outdated bronze age views that don't account for all that we've learned and discovered since then? 

 

Again, rhetorical. You can chill out and try and answer these questions later. 

 

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Now I find myself more realizing why the Japanese sand gardens.....contemplating the fabric and perturbations thereof.  So now I'm Ed that wakes up in the morning with the freedom to exist and disturb the fabric as I see fit.  A freedom.  How do I want to zap the universe today.  I picture myself as Bill Murray at this point..... 

 

Very succinctly Josh, you have nothing superior to argue.   

 

Yes, you do this every day. Every day you are a region of space within the universe that perceives outward from a centralized point of observation, identifying itself as "Ed." Often thinking of itself 'as if' it were a discrete, isolated, life form not completely interwoven and interconnected to the very fabric of space itself. When you disturb anything, you are in fact disturbing the fabric as you see fit. You pick your nose, the universe is disturbing itself. These are the facts. 

 

What is the point? 

 

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

And let me finish while I'm here.  If you define any qualifications, then you will ultimately have to admit that your spiritual qualifications have no standard and that grace and forgiveness are not a bad choice.  

 

Grace and forgiveness for what????

 

According to what I've laid out here, the idea you're proposing would be giving yourself grace and forgiveness for acting in ignorant ways. I give myself grace and forgiveness for being naive as a young christian boy, not understanding much of anything outside of my small bubble, within another small bubble. SDAism within christianity, in other words. I forgive myself for ever being so naive, credulous, and ignorant of the world around me. I had no idea that "I am" the world, the universe, and mere existence itself. I'm forgiven by grace for having been so out of touch with reality. 

 

And so are you, actually. 

 

I do forgive you for being so naive for so long. And I grant you grace, Ed. You know not what you do most of the time. I get it. 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

21 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

These are rhetorical answers, do not try and answer them today as you've been warned not to do. Take a break, get back to all of this later.

 

You don't seem to understand the simplicity. What makes anything spiritual in the first place? Why do people say that they feel spiritual about something?

 

Spend some time on that. No need to rush ahead. Tell me what's spiritual about anything and why it's labeled as spiritual. This is how I can try and tell you what it means. This doesn't have to be a rush and probably shouldn't be. 

 

 

It's all in writing. I'm holding to my positions. Which are internally consistent. I understand how reality breaks down. And from that basis I see everything as arising and subsiding out of the base structure of existence itself. Everything that I see as "me" has on unbroken interconnection not only to the entire universe, but to the murky past as well, back into the mystery base substance out of which the entire universe has it's origins. Origins which are not fixed, just reference points where we can begin to try and visualize existence. 

 

Going forward in time to the potential of becoming a space traveling civilization, wouldn't you think that a shifting of spirituality towards a knowledge based, fact based, view of interconnection throughout the universe makes more sense against the idea of towing along long outdated bronze age views that don't account for all that we've learned and discovered since then? 

 

Again, rhetorical. You can chill out and try and answer these questions later. 

 

 

Yes, you do this every day. Every day you are a region of space within the universe that perceives outward from a centralized point of observation, identifying itself as "Ed." Often thinking of itself 'as if' it were a discrete, isolated, life form not completely interwoven and interconnected to the very fabric of space itself. When you disturb anything, you are in fact disturbing the fabric as you see fit. You pick your nose, the universe is disturbing itself. These are the facts. 

 

What is the point? 

 

 

Grace and forgiveness for what????

 

According to what I've laid out here, the idea you're proposing would be giving yourself grace and forgiveness for acting in ignorant ways. I give myself grace and forgiveness for being naive as a young christian boy, not understanding much of anything outside of my small bubble, within another small bubble. SDAism within christianity, in other words. I forgive myself for ever being so naive, credulous, and ignorant of the world around me. I had no idea that "I am" the world, the universe, and mere existence itself. I'm forgiven by grace for having been so out of touch with reality. 

 

And so are you, actually. 

 

I do forgive you for being so naive for so long. And I grant you grace, Ed. You know not what you do most of the time. I get it. 

 

 

Your need to tell me that "If I'd just drink" of the understanding that you have is so INCREDIBLY ARROGANT when the majority of your peers here think your case is wholly inadequate but don't have the gonads to tell you because you are in a community of people that have been hurt the same way as you.  Inclusion, communion, oneness, our need to belong.  It is not demonstrated in your concept via science as you have laid.  Your theory just effectively says whatever happens, happens. The universe does not care....and won't.  Ban me from this site. I don't care.  I do care about you and everyone's well being here.  That is largely different than agreeing with you just so you won't feel more pain.  Sometime I can do that and sometime not.  This is a case WHERE I CAN NOT because of your extreme arrogance.  Sorry, but I just can't.

[Joshpantera]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Your need to tell me that "If I'd just drink" of the understanding that you have is so INCREDIBLY ARROGANT when the majority of your peers here think your case is wholly inadequate but don't have the gonads to tell you because you are in a community of people that have been hurt the same way as you. 

 

How does it feel with the shoe on the other foot now, Ed????

 

Christians are huge fucking assholes the world over. Huge. Even my jabs at you here are kindhearted in comparison to what Christianity has unleashed on the world. I'm not telling you that you're dammed to eternal hell fire for not believing or even simply not understanding something. In fact, you're not dammed to anything that you don't dam yourself to. 

 

I'm actually the bringer of good news. You really are free to pioneer your own life outside of these mythological tales and misunderstandings about the nature of reality and existence in relation to your own existence. This is good news for you. But your reaction is to bite at the hand that's trying to feed you. Turning away from the water you've been brought to drink from. That is your reaction to good news. 

 

How does it feel, Ed???

 

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Inclusion, communion, oneness, our need to belong.  It is not demonstrated in your concept via science as you have laid.  Your theory just effectively says whatever happens, happens. The universe does not care....and won't.  Ban me from this site. I don't care. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

That is largely different than agreeing with you just so you won't feel more pain.  Sometime I can do that and sometime not.  This is a case WHERE I CAN NOT because of your extreme arrogance.  Sorry, but I just can't.

 

I've been out of the church for 30 years, Ed. I'm a long ways away from the pain of it. Which is where people can find themselves given enough time and introspection with these silly myths and fables. When you finally realize how entirely silly the whole thing is, heaven and hell not withstanding, it more laughable than painful. But it's a road that many brainwashed people find themselves on and it can be tough until you get a grip on the situation. 

 

That's why we're here to help out. We've been there, done that. 

 

So I forgive you Ed, you know not what you do. You deserve grace and forgiveness for your ignorance. For your own good, of course. You know, hate the ignorance not the person. That's who it works, right? 

 

You enjoy this when it comes to you from myth making bronze age priests and scribes but not when it's coming from me, here, right now???

 

What gives???

 

I thought you loved this stuff???

[Edgarcito]

One of the observers made a good distinction....theology vs. spirituality.  I guess I've been guilty of not really just discussing the latter alone.  With that, spirituality for me comes in those moments of connection with the greater....God through Christ in my beliefs.  Given our drawn out mess here, I think communicating with God through the actual form that I exist seems apropos.....fully God, fully man, with specific instructions.

[Edgarcito]

I guess another distinction is theoretical repair of life's mistakes and heartaches through acknowledgement, payment, forgiveness, and salvation vs. a spiritual model that essentially says, go be and do....there are no boundaries.....when clearly our manifestations define boundaries.  I can see the attraction as it presents no defined consequences. 

[Edgarcito]

To add....if it's an equilibrium of Oneness, who pays if I screw over a cricket or off a cow for a tasty treat?  Who pays?

 

Edit: Our reality suggests an absolute.  Your spiritual model does NOT have consequences for an absolute as you have explained it to me.

 

Thx

[Joshpantera]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

With that, spirituality for me comes in those moments of connection with the greater....God through Christ in my beliefs. 

 

And with that PG observation, christ enters the debate 

 

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I think communicating with God through the actual form that I exist seems apropos.....fully God, fully man, with specific instructions.

 

Does this mean that you understand now the "fully god, fully man" situation through the lens of the mystical realization laid out in the story? That it's not about one person thousands of years ago, but every individual person here, now? 

 

Fully the whole, fully the part. 

 

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I guess another distinction is theoretical repair of life's mistakes and heartaches through acknowledgement, payment, forgiveness, and salvation vs. a spiritual model that essentially says, go be and do....there are no boundaries.....when clearly our manifestations define boundaries.  I can see the attraction as it presents no defined consequences. 

 

Explain what boundaries you're referring to? I've given a presentation of the whole, boundlessness, seeing past perceived boundaries to an infinite and eternal reality. So boundaries do you see coming from a boundless presentation? 

 

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

To add....if it's an equilibrium of Oneness, who pays if I screw over a cricket or off a cow for a tasty treat?  Who pays?

 

Edit: Our reality suggests an absolute.  Your spiritual model does NOT have consequences for an absolute as you have explained it to me.

 

Thx

 

All consequences are simple and basic. We exist in an action / reaction universe. Further down scale, human beings have social orders and societal rules of governing. There are always consequences. There always have been. And the consequences come from existing within human societies. Is it illegal to kill a cricket? If no, then there's no consequence or punishment obviously. There's no metaphysical consequence for it, either. And we can't very well entertain afterlife consequences when it's not established that there even is an afterlife. 

 

Why is this too hard to fathom? 

 

The situation is that you and I exist in an interconnected reality where we are subject to moral codes and consequences according to the society we belong to. Society decides what will be allowed and what won't. Outside of society there isn't anything to apply consequences for actions. Aside from consequences that come from entering the food chain or acting stupid. Making dumb choices. Natural consequences for not being smart enough to survive. And yet you and the sharks exist within this interconnected reality. Everything is going on within the context of an interconnected universe. 

 

It is what it is. 

 

It is not what it is not. 

 

And consequences are what they are. The bigger question is why do you think consequences make any difference to a spiritual model? If there's no hell, or no karma, then it can't be spiritual? 

 

Please explain. 

[Edgarcito]

Does this mean that you understand now the "fully god, fully man" situation through the lens of the mystical realization laid out in the story? That it's not about one person thousands of years ago, but every individual person here, now? 

 

Fully the whole, fully the part. 

 

I think I can envision it both ways.

 

Explain what boundaries you're referring to? I've given a presentation of the whole, boundlessness, seeing past perceived boundaries to an infinite and eternal reality. So boundaries do you see coming from a boundless presentation? 

 

We are not boundless Josh.  I think that's where your bullshit enters.  Go stand in front of a speeding truck and you will find your bounds.  I don't subscribe to that theory, end of story.  My spirituality rests in the understanding between Ed inside a physical body, that is a reality for me, and trying to understand and be respectful to a supposed grand plan.  Maybe there exists that plan, maybe there does not

 

All consequences are simple and basic. We exist in an action / reaction universe. Further down scale, human beings have social orders and societal rules of governing. There are always consequences. There always have been. And the consequences come from existing within human societies. Is it illegal to kill a cricket? If no, then there's no consequence or punishment obviously. There's no metaphysical consequence for it, either. And we can't very well entertain afterlife consequences when it's not established that there even is an afterlife.

 

Ahh, I see.  You are one with the cricket and cow based on the morality of your level.  So much incredible bullshit sir.  Oneness, I got it.  Your oneness is one with the baked potato next to the cow carcass.

 

I am not ONE with anything if my oneness doesn't match theirs.  Yours seem rather selective.  You choose life, the cow has no choice.....how is that One.  I digress.  Very difficult for me not to call your spirituality bullshit...but that's exactly what I think unless you actually LIVE it.

[Edgarcito]

I'm lead to this question please Josh.  Does life have any value in your spirituality?

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

We are not boundless Josh.  I think that's where your bullshit enters.  Go stand in front of a speeding truck and you will find your bounds.  I don't subscribe to that theory, end of story.  My spirituality rests in the understanding between Ed inside a physical body, that is a reality for me, and trying to understand and be respectful to a supposed grand plan.  Maybe there exists that plan, maybe there does not

 

I have you cornered on this point, so I'll keep the attention here for right now. 

 

The bounds of your example only apply to perceiving yourself as the part, or finite aspect of what you really are. The big realization is that the part has a much deeper identity as the whole. Regardless of perception, regardless of life or death, regardless of anything, the hard fact is that the fabric and structure of existence itself (that which is boundless) is our deepest identity. In the far east that's considered spiritual insight. They've been on that level way back into history. 

 

I've encountered both theists and atheist who try to reach for the direction you're trying to take here. The christian because this all sounds too new age to deal with, and the atheist for similar reasons. 

 

But it's the truth. And regardless of not liking it, not accepting it, or not wanting it, the challenge is to demonstrate that it's wrong. Which will involve demonstrating that anything exists without breaking down literally to an aspect of the fabric and structure of existence itself. Beyond that, when failing to manage such a demonstration, there's more.

 

Sometimes people trying to remain honest will admit, ok, so this is true and we are existence itself incarnate as living creatures. We're the universe. That's a scientific fact as far as that goes. Space and matter = the universe and mere existence. The next situation goes towards the origins or boundaries of existence itself. To which we literally have zero to assign. Whatever anyone tries to assign as a fixed beginning or absolute boundary, will fail in the process. 

 

The big pull it altogether conclusion?

 

Regardless of how we perceive ourselves, we are nevertheless at the very base level simply existence itself, that which has no fixed origins, boundaries, or stopping points to be seen, conceptualized, or even fathomed. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Ahh, I see.  You are one with the cricket and cow based on the morality of your level.  So much incredible bullshit sir.  Oneness, I got it.  Your oneness is one with the baked potato next to the cow carcass.

 

I am not ONE with anything if my oneness doesn't match theirs.  Yours seem rather selective.  You choose life, the cow has no choice.....how is that One.  I digress.  Very difficult for me not to call your spirituality bullshit...but that's exactly what I think unless you actually LIVE it.

 

The above post addresses all of your questions. You not understanding how you and anything can be part of an interconnected reality, doesn't mean that you are not part of an interconnected reality. In fact you are, regardless of your ability to comprehend it. Everything oneness does match. That's what I've been explaining in detail with the benefit of scientific illustration to drive the points home. 

 

How can I not live it, Ed? Think about that.

 

You can not live christian spirituality because it's not all inclusive. It's a spiritual insight based on the perceptions of isolated parts and discrete separateness. Which is known to be false. Just perception. Not the true reality underlying everything. Christianity and it's associated spirituality is a lie where true reality is concerned, in many ways, not just this one. 

 

It's impossible to not live the spiritual insight of an interconnected reality. This isn't like the bible where someone can read a book to see what spirituality is supposed to mean and whether or not someone is abiding by it. That's only the situation of the bible or other traditions that subscribe to ancients texts and place all of their eggs in the basket of those ancient texts. Pantheists, for one example, don't subscribe to ancients texts for truth or spirituality at all: 

 

https://www.pantheism.net/manifest/

 

8. Every individual has direct access through perception, emotion and meditation to ultimate reality, which is the Universe and Nature. There is no need for mediation by priests, gurus or revealed scriptures.

 

The deal is this, living it is knowing it. See reality beyond the short sided perceptions that you keep referring to. Your examples of looking short sighted at reality as some way of trying to debunk seeing reality as it actually is, are just that, short sighted examples that don't have the power to debunk what I'm describing. 

 

My last post completely explains this. Even down to the level of contemplating "something from nothing," which will turn into a self contemplation and introspection at the farthest levels we are capable of analyzing the situation. 

 

"Thou Art That" 

 

What? 

 

The totality viewing itself as only part. 

 

Which is deceiving, incorrect, not true, dishonest, and so on. We are not only an isolated part. The part is of the whole. That's the discipline. That's the spiritual insight. When you've dispelled this optical delusion of sorts, you have the ability to live out the rest of your life knowing rather than not-knowing the underlying reality. 

 

That's it. 

 

You live as someone who knows. It doesn't mean anything else. It doesn't mean anything you keep trying to assume that it must mean. You've been wrong in your assumptions. Which is part of the overall problem that you have going for yourself where you're wrong on so many different levels. 

 

Christianity is wrong from the outset. Anyone who subscribes to it even just a little, as you do, suffers the CONSEQUENCES of christianity's inherent errors. These are foundational errors that attach themselves to anyone who even casually adhere's to them. The only way out of these fundamental errors to toss them and start over brand new. Trying to avoid the base level, inherent errors themselves in order to operate free and clear of the errors in question. 

 

A change from an inferior, to a superior spiritual type of insight. 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

You gonna answer the last post...