Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 23, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted February 23, 2022 2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: I don't think we are ever going to find much common ground on this issue, Prof. So, thank you for the consideration. Walter. 2 hours ago, TABA said: I’m definitely with Walter on this one. No more to be said. Don't get the wrong idea, fellows. I'm not trying to argue here. Simply giving my opinion. And, in my opinion, this is not a time for warmongering, fear-driven policymaking. It is a time for circumspection, cold calculation, and leveler heads to prevail. I agree that Putin, in particular, is not to be trusted and I am nervous about the goings-on. But I'm more nervous about the falling domino idea gaining too much traction. That is the exact lie the American government told my dad so they could ship his ass off to Vietnam. And what was the end result? South Vietnam fell to the communists; but it wasn't the end of civilization as we know it. A red wave did not wash over Southeast Asia. They did not all fall like dominoes. And, in fact, from my own direct experience, the Vietnamese are better off as a united and free country than they ever were under the French, Japanese, or Americans. Sure, Russian aggression is unsettling; but a Western overreaction to it might provoke far more serious consequences. Am I suggesting we just give them free rein? Hell no! But let our response be measured, not panicked. And let us look through the jingoism and propaganda to find the truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted February 23, 2022 Author Share Posted February 23, 2022 20 minutes ago, webmdave said: King George's War (1744-1748) French and Indian War (1754 to 1763) The Revolutionary War (1775-1783) War of 1812 (1812-1815) Mexican - American War (1846-1848) American Civil War (1861–1865) Just saying... So when in American history did any US citizens have to deal with... Cruise missiles (V1's) and ballistic missiles (V2's) raining down on them? The imminent threat of gas attacks and seaborne invasion? Entire cities being reduced to rubble by aerial bombardment? ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 23, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted February 23, 2022 Now that the topic has been moved to the Opine Club, I am duty-bound as the Club Leader, to bow out of the discussion. It has been fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted February 23, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Now that the topic has been moved to the Opine Club, I am duty-bound as the Club Leader, to bow out of the discussion. It has been fun. Oh we know what you think, don’t worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted February 23, 2022 Admin Share Posted February 23, 2022 56 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: So when in American history did any US citizens have to deal with... Cruise missiles (V1's) and ballistic missiles (V2's) raining down on them? The imminent threat of gas attacks and seaborne invasion? Entire cities being reduced to rubble by aerial bombardment? ? If I believed that metaphorically wringing my hands with worry would help in some way, I'd be tempted to flap around a bit. Instead, I choose to focus on the only area that is actually under my influence and control: the ability to patiently wait and see what happens. “We suffer more often in imagination than in reality.” — Seneca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 Donald Trump says Putin's 'peace keeping' move into Ukraine is 'genius' and 'savvy.' https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/23/trump-putin-ukraine-invasion-00010923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted February 23, 2022 Author Share Posted February 23, 2022 4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Don't get the wrong idea, fellows. I'm not trying to argue here. Simply giving my opinion. And, in my opinion, this is not a time for warmongering, fear-driven policymaking. It is a time for circumspection, cold calculation, and leveler heads to prevail. I agree that Putin, in particular, is not to be trusted and I am nervous about the goings-on. But I'm more nervous about the falling domino idea gaining too much traction. That is the exact lie the American government told my dad so they could ship his ass off to Vietnam. And what was the end result? South Vietnam fell to the communists; but it wasn't the end of civilization as we know it. A red wave did not wash over Southeast Asia. They did not all fall like dominoes. And, in fact, from my own direct experience, the Vietnamese are better off as a united and free country than they ever were under the French, Japanese, or Americans. Sure, Russian aggression is unsettling; but a Western overreaction to it might provoke far more serious consequences. Am I suggesting we just give them free rein? Hell no! But let our response be measured, not panicked. And let us look through the jingoism and propaganda to find the truth. Not a very convincing argument. Here's why. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia were never invaded, occupied and under the direct control of China or Russia. The Southeast Asian conflicts were proxy wars and not invasions by the Communists. So, the pretext of getting back something that was once yours doesn't apply there. But that is exactly the pretext Putin used to get the Crimea back. And exactly the pretext he's using in the Ukraine. The same pretext I referred to with all these domino nations. Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Moldova and the Balkan countries were all part of the Soviet bloc. Finland was once part of Imperial Russia. In fact, the now absent Professor had this to say about things being taken back. When Putin first took power, I said, "that boy is going to put the Soviet Union back together. Everybody said I was crazy; but I believed he was capable of playing the long game. He finally has his chance; and he could not have hoped for a more perfect opportunity. I doubt he'll waste it. So, the lie told to America by it's government about SE Asian dominoes doesn't really apply to the Ukraine. But the Prof himself acknowledges that Putin has his eye on the European dominoes and wants them back. A white, blue and red wave might well wash over Europe. I'm with the Prof about a measured response, but his argument about Vietnam just doesn't stand up. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 23, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted February 23, 2022 29 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: Vietnam... never invaded, occupied and under the direct control of China Bắc thuộc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 34 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Bắc thuộc I'm big enough to admit when I should have qualified my statement by using the word 'modern'. The Prof cites a Chinese colonization of Vietnam that ended almost a thousand years ago. https://vietnameseimperialism.weebly.com/history.html But the Soviet Union invaded the European domino countries in modern times; the mid 20th century. They gained their freedom from the Soviets in modern times; between 1989 and 1991. Now, after just three decades, Putin wants them back under Russian control. This all happened and is happening in our lifetimes, not a millennium ago. So my argument stands. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 24, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted February 24, 2022 1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said: So my argument stands My point was that the Domino Theory turned out to be completely wrong with regard to Southeast Asia and therefore we should not overreact to Ukraine based on the same "fall like dominoes" rhetoric. Your "argument" does not even address any of this; and I suspect it's because you missed the point entirely, along with my continued calls for exercising caution with regard to believing patriotic and political lies. But, yes, now that you have shifted the goalposts to exclusively modern history, with reckless disregard to the broader point that what happens today might not matter tomorrow, your "argument" stands... for what, exactly, remains unclear, as an argument that fails to counter, or even address, the point in question is hardly an argument at all. For my part, this is not, and never has been, an argument. I simply attempted to address your concerns, which I recall you asked me to do, with my own experience, observations, and perspective. Having done so, per the guidelines of this particular forum, I will, once again, retire from this thread and leave the last word for you. Cheerio, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 Putin's having the last word in the Ukraine. Right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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