What Is Evidence / How Do We Know What Is Real?

[pantheory]

What Is Evidence / How Do We Know What Is Real?

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Dear Hierophant,

 

This is a good question that comes up in all categories of debate and discussion.

 

I will start my answer with the dictionary definition like I often do. Evidence in an argument, paper, or discussion:

 

"Evidence"(as a noun); the available body of facts, information, and data  indicating whether a belief or proposition is valid or not.

Also.  evidence for the contrary argument if there is one.

 

Evidence(d) (es a verb) to be or show evidence of.

 

For the Bible: Evidence for the truth of the Bible would be events documented by one or more alternative sources of history, written at the time of the event, that can corroborate what supposedly happened. Evidence of the people and locations of the Bible can be corroborated in a similar way. Evidence of location might be found by archeologists. Of course the authenticity of human written documents is also questionable, especially when written much later by a non-eyewitness.

 

For science: the same evidence must be provided concerning a theory or hypothesis. For instance, for the theory of Natural Selection, there is a mountain of evidence to support it. The only dispute comes from people that are not educated enough to understand the science behind it. Within the field itself the evidence is indisputable, no matter the religious belief of the scientist.

 

Some big, but weaker science theories with weaker evidence to support them IMHO are Quantum Mechanics and Cosmology.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Who are you to tell DarkBishop what he can or cannot do?

I don't think he really meant it that way. He was just poking you . Anyway. I've already read through most the replies except for what was after my last reply. 

[walterpthefirst]

Hello again aik.

 

Living in Russia you will probably be online before me, so here is a question for your attention in the morning.

 

 

If you want to persuade us with evidence, who's standard of evidence must you satisfy?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

[aik]

9 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm not disputing that your mom's cancer went away.  I wasn't there and I have no way of knowing if you're telling the truth or not. 

 

This issue here is consistency.  In order to qualify as "hard" evidence, as Weezer calls it, the evidence needs to be both consistent in itself, and applied consistently. 

 

What I mean by consistent evidence is, imagine there is a little shop down the street that serves very good shawarma.  One day you go and discover that the meat is rancid.  Is this consistent evidence that the shawarma shop serves bad food?  No.  It only occurred one time.  What if every Tuesday you discover rancid meat; but on Mondays and Wednesdays, the meat is fine?  Is this consistent evidence that the shawarma shop sells bad food?  It is certainly consistent enough to make a decision that you're not going to eat there on Tuesdays. 

 

Miracles are not themselves consistent.  Sometimes they happen; but most times they do not.  As a result of their unreliability, they do not constitute legitimate "hard" evidence. 

 

Evidence also needs to be applied consistently.  If fingerprints are found on a gun lying next to a person who's been shot, those fingerprints need to be traced out to find the potential shooter.  The police aren't going to ignore or explain away the fingerprints just because the victim lived.

 

Miracles are not applied consistently.  People pray everyday for miracles that never happen.  But then, out of the 100 million unanswered prayers, suddenly somebody's cancer goes away.  Now you have to explain away all the miracles that didn't happen in order to use the one that did as evidence.  "Oh, it wasn't god's will."  "Well, he just didn't have enough faith."  "There must have been hidden sin in her life."

 

Surely there's a reason that miracles do not happen.

 

Or, more specifically, miracles do not happen any more often than statistical probability and coincidence would explain.

Dear RNP, I appreciate your answer. 

 

But with all respect I ask, please, read me carefully.

 

If the is or there was only one miracle, I mean a miracle, happened because of praying with laying on hands and calling the name of Jesus Christ, it means first of all that there is no place for atheism.

 

If you say that you are an ex-christian but still believe in some diety or a god, then we shall change the topic and I am ready to continue with you on the topic of your belief. 

[aik]

9 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm not disputing that your mom's cancer went away. 

By the way, it was not a cancer, another disease. I do not know its english word actually right now. But for the present instance it does not matter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 minutes ago, aik said:

 

If the is or there was only one miracle, I mean a miracle, happened because of praying with laying on hands and calling the name of Jesus Christ, it means first of all that there is no place for atheism.

If there is or there was only one unanswered prayer, I mean a prayer prayed in complete childlike faith, with two or three gathered in christ's name in agreement, it means there is no place for faith and trust.

 

This is what I mean by consistent application of evidence.  You simply cannot overlook all of the miracles that did not happen and only focus on the one that did.  Perhaps you can do so; but you will never convince me if that is the evidence you are offering. 

[aik]

11 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Ps- I am at work.

What is your job Bishop?

 

11 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I'd be willing to start one up as a reply to you if that's ok?

Bishop, I am afraid of having disputes with you. You are too strong for me.  But seriously, if it will be necessary then later. I am not sure fist of all that I am able to carry on two or three threads. And I am more interested in discussion with TABA. You are welcome to follow it. I hope that the discussion will come out in some good deal. TABA is a very nice speech partner.

 

Besides that I am reading now Weezer's essay and I am planning to make comments to it later when I have it finished. Maybe it will be more fruitful to have a conversation with him if he wishes.

 

But anyway if we both me and you decide to go into a thread, then we should  previously make some agreements of understanding certain things i guess, such as what evidence means and so on. Then I will be happy to go in, why not.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 minutes ago, aik said:

By the way, it was not a cancer, another disease. I do not know its english word actually right now. But for the present instance it does not matter.

Either way, I am sincerely happy that she survived and recovered.  I hope she will live a long, healthy, and prosperous life. 

[aik]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Either way, I am sincerely happy that she survived and recovered.  I hope she will live a long, healthy, and prosperous life. 

Thank you very much, I appreciate your good words. And Glory to Jesus for all that happened to her. She were several times close to death, not only because of some disease, but anyway, God has taken her out of all dangers she was in. I am speaking of the last 30. 

 

Thank you and praised be the Lord Jesus Christ.

[aik]

6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If there is or there was only one unanswered prayer, I mean a prayer prayed in complete childlike faith, with two or three gathered in christ's name in agreement, it means there is no place for faith and trust.

incorrect statement. 

 

The Bible shows us reasons why God can leave the prayer without an answer. It is not a problem for a believer. For example I am a father and I am not going to do everything that my children ask from me. Even if they ask a very good and obvious thing. It maybe not a true time for that in my sight. So I may have a reason not to do it now. If me a human being, a father, do understand such things, such a small wisdom, then how much more God does, who created me and all of us by his image. 

 

And please notice, when you speak about God do not represent him like somebody who is like us, who thinks like us, or who knows as much as we do, or whose morality and values are just like ours. Things are different, especially you see it when you come closer to God.

 

So if a statement is incorrect then the conclusion made on the basis of that statement cannot be correct.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

31 minutes ago, aik said:

Bishop, I am afraid of having disputes with you. You are too strong for me.  

I will reply on this thread, no need to start another. And I know

 

31 minutes ago, aik said:

But anyway if we both me and you decide to go into a thread, then we should  previously make some agreements of understanding certain things i guess, such as what evidence means and so on. Then I will be happy to go in, why not.

 

We will make some agreements next time we go into a thread on a subject. But this thread is already about evidence. So I'll just say it here. It'll be ok. I was very busy today at work and now it's almost midnight here. So it will have to wait till tomorrow. gonna get some sleep  

 

DB

 

[aik]

2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

And I know

 good for you.

 

2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

gonna get some sleep

have a good night.

[Astreja]

20 hours ago, aik said:

Your atheology closed your mind sister. If you get your mother healed of a disease that led her to death, it cannot be my imagination. An imagination does not heal, it is fake to think so. Imagination cannot delete a 4 stage cancer for example. An imagination cannot glue bones to each other. An imagination cannot bring to life. and so many many testimonies are in the church. Explore it better. I remember it was you said that you never were a christian. This is your chance to learn what it is.

 

I. Am. Not. Your. Sister.  Cease and desist immediately - you do not know me in real life, and it's extremely rude to assume  such familiarity with me. 

 

Ever heard of a placebo?  How about spontaneous remission?  They are aspects of modern medicine that have stopped cancers and some other diseases.  Imagination can and does affect the outcome of some illnesses, particularly ones where the root problem was caused by stress.

 

I've worked in medicine.  I know how to read peer-reviewed papers.  I've typed over 60,000 medical reports over a period of 16 years, and none of them ever described a religious miracle.  None.  Zero.  There were, however, more than a few improvements due to lifestyle changes and improvement of psychosocial factors.

 

I believe that no one has ever been brought back to life after a very small time window where resuscitation is possible.  If someone's heart is not quickly restarted, before hypoxia causes critical and irreversible damage to the brain, that person is dead forever.   No exceptions.  I do not accept "miracle" testimonies from believers, because there is no way to test their claims, and there's a good chance that many of them are lying in order to attract people to their churches.

 

And let me make one thing clear to you, Aik:  I am not interested in becoming a Christian.  I consider it to be an extremely immoral belief system and I do not want it in my life.

 

[aik]

1 hour ago, Astreja said:

I. Am. Not. Your. Sister.  Cease and desist immediately - you do not know me in real life, and it's extremely rude to assume  such familiarity with me.

It is normal in my nation when a man calls any woman like "sister". Though she actually is not born of the same parent as he, but it is better to call a woman sister, rather than to have her as a sex object in mind. We lough at people in Russia that they even do not know what the name of their neighbour is. Is that familiar to you? 

 

So for me every woman in the world is my sister, and one among those sisters is my wife. 

But you in America are so confused in genders that many of you are not even able to accept a plain good attitude.

 

Ok, Astreja let us continue later

[Astreja]

49 minutes ago, aik said:

It is normal in my nation when a man calls any woman like "sister". Though she actually is not born of the same parent as he, but it is better to call a woman sister, rather than to have her as a sex object in mind. We lough at people in Russia that they even do not know what the name of their neighbour is. Is that familiar to you? 

 

So for me every woman in the world is my sister, and one among those sisters is my wife. 

But you in America are so confused in genders that many of you are not even able to accept a plain good attitude.

 

Ok, Astreja let us continue later

 

No, we shall not continue.  If you won't respect my request regarding how I want to be addressed, and you think that constitutes a "plain good attitude," then you can fuck right off.

 

May you lose your faith and never regain it.

[aik]

12 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

No, we shall not continue.  If you won't respect my request regarding how I want to be addressed, and you think that constitutes a "plain good attitude," then you can fuck right off.

 

May you lose your faith and never regain it.

Ok. Then may God bless you in the name of Jesus. 

[aik]

@DarkBishop i have found your story on p.8 about the house built on the rock has fallen. It seemed to me very challengeable title. I have pinned it to have it read later.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, aik said:

incorrect statement. 

 

The Bible shows us reasons why God can leave the prayer without an answer

"Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them"

Matthew 18:19-20

 

According to the bible, it is your statement which is incorrect.  This verse clearly states that where two or more are in agreement in prayer, that prayer will be answered.  I phrased my statement very deliberately, with this verse in mind.  The problem is that for every 1 example of an answered prayer you can show me, I can show you 10, often from my own experience as a missionary and men's minister, that were not answered.  

 

Which goes right back to what I have said about evidence being applied consistently.  If you, or your god, have to explain away why a prayer might go unanswered, then you are doing so in direct contradiction to the scripture.  All god's promises are yea and amen, after all; there should never have to be an excuse as to why one of them doesn't come true.

[walterpthefirst]

In case you missed this aik, I'll post it again.

 

 

 

Hello again aik.

 

Living in Russia you will probably be online before me, so here is a question for your attention in the morning.

 

 

If you want to persuade us with evidence, who's standard of evidence must you satisfy?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[aik]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them"

Matthew 18:19-20

 

According to the bible, it is your statement which is incorrect.  This verse clearly states that where two or more are in agreement in prayer, that prayer will be answered.  I phrased my statement very deliberately, with this verse in mind.  The problem is that for every 1 example of an answered prayer you can show me, I can show you 10, often from my own experience as a missionary and men's minister, that were not answered.  

 

Which goes right back to what I have said about evidence being applied consistently.  If you, or your god, have to explain away why a prayer might go unanswered, then you are doing so in direct contradiction to the scripture.  All god's promises are yea and amen, after all; there should never have to be an excuse as to why one of them doesn't come true.

There is no doubt that the bible is true and what it says it is so. But if you want to show that the teachers of word of faith ministry are false, i agree with you. They do right in the way you described. They say, Jesus promised and he shall give. Yes. But the promise has conditions. Condition is not only gatherin by two or three together. It says if your heart does condemn you moreover God which is greater than your heart is. If your heart does not condemn you then you dare to ask everything from God and you will have it. Or for example it says ask without doubts and whoever doubts he xhall not have anythjng from God. Besides that there is the will of God who knows better time and place for everything. And so on. And you can ask now if i come to God in prayer haven't  i every time courage or faith that God will answer. I say, no, when my heart does not judge me for any sin, i come to god with faith and i am sure he hears me and will answer. But does he always do what i think? Of course doesn't. And thanks to God for that. Because he knows better what i do need now. 

 

 

But there are kids in churches who every time ask from God something, work, business, wife, health, children, enough chiltren, healthy wife and beatiful wife, good friends, destroy enemy, and they ask and ask and ask. And for many such kids it is enough that one time, only once god does not answer, so they change there heart toward god, and ultimately leave him. Such a person never knew what God was, and what kind of source of life he was. 

 

This was a spiritual part.  now let us go on. 

 

If we assume that the whole bible is false, and Jesus never existed, but if there is one miracle happenned in a certain place and time, then atheism is distroyed. It means that there is a power out of the limits of science who holds and governs all natural powers. Who is He?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

48 minutes ago, aik said:

If we assume that the whole bible is false, and Jesus never existed, but if there is one miracle happenned in a certain place and time, then atheism is distroyed. It means that there is a power out of the limits of science who holds and governs all natural powers. Who is He?

Even if we assume this, it does not necessarily follow that an unexplained event was caused by a supernatural power; it could be perfectly natural, but as yet not understood, tying in with what Joshpantera has already shared about Consciousness. 

 

However, even if it did logically follow, that would be just as much evidence for Allah as it would be for jesus.  Your assumption attempts to explain an inexplicable occurrence by appealing to an even more inexplicable cause, which means it fails as evidence.  It fails at logical consistency.  It fails Occam's Razor.  In short, moy droog, it fails full stop.

 

I'm sure you'll say that the cause is not inexplicable, because the cause is god; but then you will have to go back and explain god.  You will run into difficulties, because the bible states that his ways are not our ways and that he is all mysterious and shit.  So the only explanation you will be able to offer will be based largely on your own interpretation and self-projection.  This is exactly what a Mohammedan would also do, since you both have the same "evidence".  You will tell us that Allah is not the one true god; the Muslim will tell us there is no god but Allah and Mohamed is his prophet.

 

Which one of you should I believe?  You are both presenting me with equally unbelievable claims supported by equally unbelievable "evidence"; and neither of you have followed any kind of logic or consistency to arrive at your equally unbelievable conclusions.

 

You still have yet to provide sufficient evidence for the existence of any god; therefore appealing to your specific god as an explanation is not based on a firm enough foundation for me to accept.   

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Good morning @aik,

 

I'll have to catch up on the replies today but I owe you a reply and need to make one before it gets to late. 

 

I don't doubt that you are Christian. To me, you have proven that here in the forums just by the demeanor of your messages and your fervent adherence to your faith. I expected you to point that out as evidence but maybe to do so would have seemed vain to you....? In the scripture Jesus tells us what to look for in:

 

Mathew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

In this Jesus is talking about false prophets but this can also be applied to a faithful Christian. Also reflected in the book of James.

 

James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

Here we see some key wording in the bible. It shows us that there is something expected of the faithful. Just as Jesus said in Mathew 7, a good tree will bear good fruit. Also a Christian will work the works of Christ. It is a necessity to work the work of Christ to retain your salvation. Or atleast that is what I see here. It even asks the question can faith alone save you? The answer is no. This gets confusing to some Christians because of what is said in ephesians chapter 2. Especially to the Baptist. 

 

Ephesians 2.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

Here we see that it is said that salvation is a gift and not a gift obtained by works. Which is true biblically. But notice that it also says that ye are saved through faith. While biblically no one can be saved by their works alone and they must go through faith in Christ to receive the gift of salvation. There is work to be done after salvation and faith. And if those works aren't there. Faith is dead. And if faith is dead without works, salvation is lost. Biblically it is freely given but must be maintained afterward. 

 

Also in ephesians we get a pretty good example of the fruits of a Christian. Which I believe you reflect Aik.

 

Ephesian 4

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

Notice that there is to be an obvious change in a Christian. His demeanor changes. The man that was once a thief will now work honestly to aide those in need. Laying down his wrath, anger, and evil speaking. To be kind, tender hearted, and forgiving. 

 

All of this I believe you reflect. And you should be proud of that. Biblically you reflect the actions and works of a Christian. 

 

But is that everything that Christians as a collective are supposed to be able to do?

 

While I will admit that this is the very evidence that you could give us. It only reflects a change in mentality that comes with Indoctrination. This same type of change could be seen in someone who decides to start practicing Buddhism. Some of the kindest people I've known have been Hindu. In my youth I was interested in Wicca. I met some people during this time who had a deep and profound respect and love for nature. This was core to their beliefs. Anyone can have a change in consciousness and become a better person. One of the mottos of my fraternity is: "Taking good men and making them better". There is great wisdom in the lectures of masonry that teach us to be better people. To consider others and what they may be going through before jumping to conclusions. Not to let religious differences affect how we treat one another. 

 

The only difference between the works of these examples and the example you have shown in your life is faith in Christ. 

 

Let's go over what it says in Hebrews 11 about faith being evidence. 

 

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

 

I thought about posting the whole chapter because after verse two it goes into giving the faithful examples of Jewish elders in the bible. Abel, noah, Abraham, Enoch, Moses, and several others. And I would urge anyone reading this post to read the whole chapter. It just seems unnecessary to post the whole chapter.

 

In the rest of the chapter they present the experiences of the elders as fact. They assumed that all of these events happened. Not by faith but because it was written. They thought that these people existed and that they did all these things through their faith because these characters were written into the Bible. They felt that these were factual events that resulted from faith. 

 

In reality none of these things happened. Or at the very least they have not been able to be verified through archeology or any other method of obtaining objective proof of it happening. Abel is the son of Adam and eve who were characters in the mythological story of creation. Our discoveries do not reflect a creation anything like what is depicted in the bible. Which you and I covered in another thread awhile back. 

 

There is a mountain of verifiable evidence that the flood of Noah never happened. When I say the flood of Noah never happened. I'm talking about a world wide flood as depicted in Genesis. There is proof of smaller localized and coastal flooding. But though geologist have searched the world for evidence of a world wide flood. That evidence just isn't there.

 

There is very little proof that Moses ever existed or that the exodus ever happened. Though initially archeologists set out using the bible as a guide to find evidence of the exodus. That evidence has eluded their grasp.

 

There is no verifiable proof of Abraham. Oh I'm sure that there were some actual people with some of these names that inspired the myths and legends that came to be. But we can go through each example that is given in Hebrews 11 and conclude that there is no sufficient evidence to prove that any of those things happened. Had they known during that time that these events couldn't be proven I doubt that Hebrews 11 would ever have been written. They wrote about them as factual examples of the faith of others who (unknowingly to the writer) probably never existed. 

 

Had archeologists and scientist been able to prove that these people and events existed. This chapter would have been fairly good evidence for the case of the biblical God. However, that proof has never been found. Therefore, this chapter has only become more fuel for the argument against the bible and its God. 

 

But is that the only evidence that could be presented? You have presented your mothers miraculous recovery from cancer as proof. And I would also like to say that I'm glad your mother did recover and I hope she leads a full and happy life. Whether it was the result of treatment or a miraculous happening, you have more time with her. But speaking of miracles. I would attest that miracles could in fact be proof if those miracles were. 

 

1. Exclusive to Christians 

And

2. Reflected what Jesus prophesied would happen after him. 

 

Concerning the 1st point. Miracles like your mothers are not exclusive to Christianity but can be claimed by people of different faiths all over the world. 

 

More interestingly, concerning this topic, Jesus gave clear indication that miracles in his name would continue even after he was gone. 

 

Let's go back to

 

Mathew 7

 

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 

Jesus promised that through faithful prayer that God would answer in kind. You have attested in this thread that God doesn't answer all prayers. And I would tend to agree that there are prayers and circumstances where an all knowing God would not answer a prayer. But the problem lies in the fact that God is more in the business of not answering prayers than he is in answering them. Or atleast that is what appears to be the case.

 

 @TheRedneckProfessor brought up the story of a young girl who was abducted, raped, and killed. She and her parents were Christian. And I know having been a Christian that her parents, her whole family, and probably their whole Christian community prayed for her safe return. This is one prayer that a Loving Christian God would answer if he were real. And this is just one instance. There are children starving and being abused daily. Many of them probably crying to God for help with no answer. Why? 

 

Therefore this evidence provided by Jesus also fails to provide an adequate defense for objective proof of the bible's God. 

 

What else did Jesus say?

 

John 14

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

Verse 12 is the key verse here. He that believes in Jesus will not only do the works that Jesus did. But will be able to do greater works. 

 

It doesn't say that only his apostles would be able to do this. But he that believes on Jesus. That would include any and all Christians. 

 

Let's do a quick review of some of the works of Jesus. 

 

Healed the sick, blind, lame, and even cured leprosy.

 

Fed thousands of people with a loaf of bread and a few fish. Miraculously multiplied it until everyone had their fill.

 

Walked on open water

 

Raised Lazarus from the dead

 

Was resurrected himself and ascended to heaven. 

 

Jesus said that those people that believed on him would not only be able to do all of that, but greater works than he did. 

 

If this had been true and actually happened in today's time. It would be good objective evidence that what the Bible says is true. But alas, once again this is not the case. Half the world is Christian. Hunger should be gone from all the Christians multiplying food for the hungry. Sicknesses should be miraculously cured daily. Cancer? Aids? Hepatitis? Covid 19? No problem. Go to the nearest Christian. Let them lay hands on you, Anointing you with oil, and you'll be cured. But that doesn't really happen does it? According to Jesus the world should be seeing these types of miracles coming from Christendom that he performed in his life. Yet again, that is not what happened or is happening today. Even though Jesus himself said that it would happen.

 

Now we can get into the evidences of the spirit. Or fruits of the spirit. Remember we've already pointed out that a Christian is known by their fruits. That is their evidence of Christianity. Likewise the Holy Spirit has fruits. 

 

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

You have talked about the Holy spirit working in your life. And I assume that this is what your talking about. Leaving the lusts of the flesh behind and walking in the spirit. But again. That is also an indication of religious indoctrination which we have already covered a few times in our conversations. So there needs to be more. Thats OK. Because biblically the Holy spirit does offer more. 

 

1 corinthians 12

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

The gifts of the spirit. Rnp can expound more on these. His church was very big on the gifts of the spirit. 

 

Prophesy

Tongues

Interpretation of tongues

Healing

Wisdom

Miracles

Knowledge

Discerning of spirits 

 

While all these gifts may be claimed by the church....... they aren't really evident are they Aik? I mean sure.... wisdom, knowledge, and maybe even discerning of spirits. I mean I'm not even religious and I can usually read people pretty well. But I'm not sure thats the type of spiritual discerning it is talking about. Most the time, if you do hear a supposed prophesy, it ends up not coming to fruition. If it does its usually some vague prophecy that is proclaimed to be a fulfillment according to some persons interpretation. But there is really no extraordinary prophecies that have come true which we can verify. Kind of like the return of Jesus. Almost 2000 years and counting. Miracles? Nope not really, already covered that. Not to the extent that Jesus said it would be anyway. 

 

So you see Aik. The Bible gave many examples of objective evidence that you as a Christian "should" be able to show us heathens. But the only thing your faith has given you to show us, is the subjective evidence reflected in your personal Christian Indoctrination and the change in your behavior. While I agree that the Bible says that this is the evidence of a Christian. The Bible and Jesus himself also said there should be more evidence. There should be objective evidence. The Bible gives many examples of things we should be able to verify and we weren't able to. It gives many examples of things Christians should be capable of but they aren't capable of.

 

The Bible fails at every turn to prove itself true. The biblical God is powerless to prove his own existence. And that isn't a God worth worshipping in my opinion.

 

Thank you

 

Dark Bishop 

 

Ps. Please excuse any typos for now. I have spent to much time on this and have to actually work now. I'll fix them later. 

 

 

 

[freshstart]

Wow @DarkBishop.  Very nice approach and response to the Christians like Aik.

That right there ^^^^ should be required reading for every Christian who comes here!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

6 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Wow @DarkBishop.  Very nice approach and response to the Christians like Aik.

That right there ^^^^ should be required reading for every Christian who comes here!

 

I agree.  You have some excelent ideas, but I suggest some slight modifications if you wish to be more effective in your excelent arguments.  Change some of the absolutes, such as "it never happened", to something like, "there is no proof it happened this way."   And I don't know where you got the idea there was no flood.   It is my understanding after decades of study that there were huge floods in many places in the world.  But not one that covered the whole world at the same time. The more I study, the more I see threads of "truth" in many biblical stories.  But there is much modification of the stories.  Making "absolute" statements when you can't prove them, erodes your believeability. It suggests bias, and not being objective. Keep up the good work!

[pantheory]

12 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

I. Am. Not. Your. Sister.  Cease and desist immediately - you do not know me in real life, and it's extremely rude to assume  such familiarity with me. 

 

Ever heard of a placebo?  How about spontaneous remission?  They are aspects of modern medicine that have stopped cancers and some other diseases.  Imagination can and does affect the outcome of some illnesses, particularly ones where the root problem was caused by stress.

 

I've worked in medicine.  I know how to read peer-reviewed papers.  I've typed over 60,000 medical reports over a period of 16 years, and none of them ever described a religious miracle.  None.  Zero.  There were, however, more than a few improvements due to lifestyle changes and improvement of psychosocial factors.

 

I believe that no one has ever been brought back to life after a very small time window where resuscitation is possible.  If someone's heart is not quickly restarted, before hypoxia causes critical and irreversible damage to the brain, that person is dead forever.   No exceptions.  I do not accept "miracle" testimonies from believers, because there is no way to test their claims, and there's a good chance that many of them are lying in order to attract people to their churches.

 

And let me make one thing clear to you, Aik:  I am not interested in becoming a Christian.  I consider it to be an extremely immoral belief system and I do not want it in my life.

 

 

Astreja, Be gentle with aik. He's a really nice Christian like Edgarcito. He lives in Russia where it could get to 40 degrees below zero outside and he probably would still go to church and risk freezing to death.   People there are very familiar with global cooling   

It's cold enough where you live, -11 degrees.