What Is Evidence / How Do We Know What Is Real?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, Weezer said:

And I don't know where you got the idea there was no flood. 

Thank you for your advice. I can see your point about not making absolutes. But the flood of Noah, to me, is an absolute. There was no world wide biblical flood of Noah. Anything other than a world wide flood is not the flood of Noah. I know there were massive coastal floods as glacial lakes poured into the ocean. And other large flooding that explain the inspiration for the stories. But there never was a flood like the flood of Noah. It just didn't happen. 

 

That is why I made the flood of Noah an absolute. The flood of Noah was a specific type of flood that never happened. I will do some editing as I fix my typos though. And make some of it a little less absolute. Maybe it will resonate better.

 

3 hours ago, pantheory said:

He's a really nice Christian like Edgarcito.

 

When has Edgarcito been a nice Christian? Must of been before I came here  

 

 

DB

 

 

[pantheory]

16 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Thank you for your advice. I can see your point about not making absolutes. But the flood of Noah is an absolute. There absolutely was no flood of Noah. Anything other than a world wide flood is not the flood of Noah. I know there were massive coastal floods as glacier lakes poured into the ocean. And other large flooding that explain the inspiration for the stories. But there never was a flood like the flood of Noah. It just didn't happen. 

 

Now do you know where I got it? I will do some editing as I fix my typos though. And make it a little less absolute for some of the other stuff. 

 

 

When has Edgarcito been a nice Christian? Must of been before I came here  

 

 

DB

 

 

 

Egarcito tries to fit in, which he does IMO by sometimes using the same language as he sees on a thread. I vouch for Edgarcito as a good person. Christians sometimes say something like this: "I feel sorry for you since you don't understand or have faith in "blah blah blah blah," and they are sincere.  And I repeat the same thing back to them in jest: " I honestly feel sorry for you since you don't understand "blah blah blah blah," and that we are simply animals with more intelligence, but maybe less-so if one believes in the fantasies of religion"

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@Weezer

 

I just went through and edited out some typos and tried to make it a little.less absolute. Would you mind reading it again and see if that seems a little better?

 

Thanks,

 

DB

[aik]

5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Good morning @aik,

 

I'll have to catch up on the replies today but I owe you a reply and need to make one before it gets to late. 

 

I don't doubt that you are Christian. To me, you have proven that here in the forums just by the demeanor of your messages and your fervent adherence to your faith. I expected you to point that out as evidence but maybe to do so would have seemed vain to you....? In the scripture Jesus tells us what to look for in:

 

Mathew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

In this Jesus is talking about false prophets but this can also be applied to a faithful Christian. Also reflected in the book of James.

 

James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

Here we see some key wording in the bible. It shows us that there is something expected of the faithful. Just as Jesus said in Mathew 7, a good tree will bear good fruit. Also a Christian will work the works of Christ. It is a necessity to work the work of Christ to retain your salvation. Or atleast that is what I see here. It even asks the question can faith alone save you? The answer is no. This gets confusing to some Christians because of what is said in ephesians chapter 2. Especially to the Baptist. 

 

Ephesians 2.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

Here we see that it is said that salvation is a gift and not a gift obtained by works. Which is true biblically. But notice that it also says that ye are saved through faith. While biblically no one can be saved by their works alone and they must go through faith in Christ to receive the gift of salvation. There is work to be done after salvation and faith. And if those works aren't there. Faith is dead. And if faith is dead without works, salvation is lost. Biblically it is freely given but must be maintained afterward. 

 

Also in ephesians we get a pretty good example of the fruits of a Christian. Which I believe you reflect Aik.

 

Ephesian 4

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

Notice that there is to be an obvious change in a Christian. His demeanor changes. The man that was once a thief will now work honestly to aide those in need. Laying down his wrath, anger, and evil speaking. To be kind, tender hearted, and forgiving. 

 

All of this I believe you reflect. And you should be proud of that. Biblically you reflect the actions and works of a Christian. 

 

But is that everything that Christians as a collective are supposed to be able to do?

 

While I will admit that this is the very evidence that you could give us. It only reflects a change in mentality that comes with Indoctrination. This same type of change could be seen in someone who decides to start practicing Buddhism. Some of the kindest people I've known have been Hindu. In my youth I was interested in Wicca. I met some people during this time who had a deep and profound respect and love for nature. This was core to their beliefs. Anyone can have a change in consciousness and become a better person. One of the mottos of my fraternity is: "Taking good men and making them better". There is great wisdom in the lectures of masonry that teach us to be better people. To consider others and what they may be going through before jumping to conclusions. Not to let religious differences affect how we treat one another. 

 

The only difference between the works of these examples and the example you have shown in your life is faith in Christ. 

 

Let's go over what it says in Hebrews 11 about faith being evidence. 

 

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

 

I thought about posting the whole chapter because after verse two it goes into giving the faithful examples of Jewish elders in the bible. Abel, noah, Abraham, Enoch, Moses, and several others. And I would urge anyone reading this post to read the whole chapter. It just seems unnecessary to post the whole chapter.

 

In the rest of the chapter they present the experiences of the elders as fact. They assumed that all of these events happened. Not by faith but because it was written. They thought that these people existed and that they did all these things through their faith because these characters were written into the Bible. They felt that these were factual events that resulted from faith. 

 

In reality none of these things happened. Or at the very least they have not been able to be verified through archeology or any other method of obtaining objective proof of it happening. Abel is the son of Adam and eve who were characters in the mythological story of creation. Our discoveries do not reflect a creation anything like what is depicted in the bible. Which you and I covered in another thread awhile back. 

 

There is a mountain of verifiable evidence that the flood of Noah never happened. When I say the flood of Noah never happened. I'm talking about a world wide flood as depicted in Genesis. There is proof of smaller localized and coastal flooding. But though geologist have searched the world for evidence of a world wide flood. That evidence just isn't there.

 

There is very little proof that Moses ever existed or that the exodus ever happened. Though initially archeologists set out using the bible as a guide to find evidence of the exodus. That evidence has eluded their grasp.

 

There is no verifiable proof of Abraham. Oh I'm sure that there were some actual people with some of these names that inspired the myths and legends that came to be. But we can go through each example that is given in Hebrews 11 and conclude that there is no sufficient evidence to prove that any of those things happened. Had they known during that time that these events couldn't be proven I doubt that Hebrews 11 would ever have been written. They wrote about them as factual examples of the faith of others who (unknowingly to the writer) probably never existed. 

 

Had archeologists and scientist been able to prove that these people and events existed. This chapter would have been fairly good evidence for the case of the biblical God. However, that proof has never been found. Therefore, this chapter has only become more fuel for the argument against the bible and its God. 

 

But is that the only evidence that could be presented? You have presented your mothers miraculous recovery from cancer as proof. And I would also like to say that I'm glad your mother did recover and I hope she leads a full and happy life. Whether it was the result of treatment or a miraculous happening, you have more time with her. But speaking of miracles. I would attest that miracles could in fact be proof if those miracles were. 

 

1. Exclusive to Christians 

And

2. Reflected what Jesus prophesied would happen after him. 

 

Concerning the 1st point. Miracles like your mothers are not exclusive to Christianity but can be claimed by people of different faiths all over the world. 

 

More interestingly, concerning this topic, Jesus gave clear indication that miracles in his name would continue even after he was gone. 

 

Let's go back to

 

Mathew 7

 

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 

Jesus promised that through faithful prayer that God would answer in kind. You have attested in this thread that God doesn't answer all prayers. And I would tend to agree that there are prayers and circumstances where an all knowing God would not answer a prayer. But the problem lies in the fact that God is more in the business of not answering prayers than he is in answering them. Or atleast that is what appears to be the case.

 

 @TheRedneckProfessor brought up the story of a young girl who was abducted, raped, and killed. She and her parents were Christian. And I know having been a Christian that her parents, her whole family, and probably their whole Christian community prayed for her safe return. This is one prayer that a Loving Christian God would answer if he were real. And this is just one instance. There are children starving and being abused daily. Many of them probably crying to God for help with no answer. Why? 

 

Therefore this evidence provided by Jesus also fails to provide an adequate defense for objective proof of the bible's God. 

 

What else did Jesus say?

 

John 14

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

Verse 12 is the key verse here. He that believes in Jesus will not only do the works that Jesus did. But will be able to do greater works. 

 

It doesn't say that only his apostles would be able to do this. But he that believes on Jesus. That would include any and all Christians. 

 

Let's do a quick review of some of the works of Jesus. 

 

Healed the sick, blind, lame, and even cured leprosy.

 

Fed thousands of people with a loaf of bread and a few fish. Miraculously multiplied it until everyone had their fill.

 

Walked on open water

 

Raised Lazarus from the dead

 

Was resurrected himself and ascended to heaven. 

 

Jesus said that those people that believed on him would not only be able to do all of that, but greater works than he did. 

 

If this had been true and actually happened in today's time. It would be good objective evidence that what the Bible says is true. But alas, once again this is not the case. Half the world is Christian. Hunger should be gone from all the Christians multiplying food for the hungry. Sicknesses should be miraculously cured daily. Cancer? Aids? Hepatitis? Covid 19? No problem. Go to the nearest Christian. Let them lay hands on you, Anointing you with oil, and you'll be cured. But that doesn't really happen does it? According to Jesus the world should be seeing these types of miracles coming from Christendom that he performed in his life. Yet again, that is not what happened or is happening today. Even though Jesus himself said that it would happen.

 

Now we can get into the evidences of the spirit. Or fruits of the spirit. Remember we've already pointed out that a Christian is known by their fruits. That is their evidence of Christianity. Likewise the Holy Spirit has fruits. 

 

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

You have talked about the Holy spirit working in your life. And I assume that this is what your talking about. Leaving the lusts of the flesh behind and walking in the spirit. But again. That is also an indication of religious indoctrination which we have already covered a few times in our conversations. So there needs to be more. Thats OK. Because biblically the Holy spirit does offer more. 

 

1 corinthians 12

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

The gifts of the spirit. Rnp can expound more on these. His church was very big on the gifts of the spirit. 

 

Prophesy

Tongues

Interpretation of tongues

Healing

Wisdom

Miracles

Knowledge

Discerning of spirits 

 

While all these gifts may be claimed by the church....... they aren't really evident are they Aik? I mean sure.... wisdom, knowledge, and maybe even discerning of spirits. I mean I'm not even religious and I can usually read people pretty well. But I'm not sure thats the type of spiritual discerning it is talking about. Most the time, if you do hear a supposed prophesy, it ends up not coming to fruition. If it does its usually some vague prophecy that is proclaimed to be a fulfillment according to some persons interpretation. But there is really no extraordinary prophecies that have come true which we can verify. Kind of like the return of Jesus. Almost 2000 years and counting. Miracles? Nope not really, already covered that. Not to the extent that Jesus said it would be anyway. 

 

So you see Aik. The Bible gave many examples of objective evidence that you as a Christian "should" be able to show us heathens. But the only thing your faith has given you to show us, is the subjective evidence reflected in your personal Christian Indoctrination and the change in your behavior. While I agree that the Bible says that this is the evidence of a Christian. The Bible and Jesus himself also said there should be more evidence. There should be objective evidence. The Bible gives many examples of things we should be able to verify and we weren't able to. It gives many examples of things Christians should be capable of but they aren't capable of.

 

The Bible fails at every turn to prove itself true. The biblical God is powerless to prove his own existence. And that isn't a God worth worshipping in my opinion.

 

Thank you

 

Dark Bishop 

 

Ps. Please excuse any typos for now. I have spent to much time on this and have to actually work now. I'll fix them later. 

 

 

 

Thank you for the great answer. I have to reply to it. But i need time. 

[walterpthefirst]

On the possibility that aik won't be answering my question to him, I'd better explain the thinking behind it.  This was the question.

 

 

If you want to persuade us with evidence, who's standard of evidence must you satisfy?

 

 

The thinking behind this question relates back to the example of Witness A and Witness B giving evidence in a court of law.  I asked aik about this yesterday.

 

 

Suppose there are two witnesses who give evidence in a court of law.

Witness A says that he was at a certain place at a certain time, but can provide no other evidence than his word that this is true.

Witness B says that he was at a certain place at a certain time and his testimony is supported by the testimony of others who saw him there at that time, by CCTV footage of him there, by evidence of his phone call from that place and by evidence of his use of his credit card there.

Which testimony, A or B, will the court be more likely to believe, aik?

 

aik replied... Of course B.

 

 

But there is a paradox involved here.  Witness A may indeed be telling the complete truth.  He was at a certain place at a certain time.  But because he cannot support his testimony with hard, objective evidence like witness B, the court is less likely to believe his testimony and more likely to believe the testimony of witness B.

 

So, even though witness A told the truth, he is not believed.

 

And this is the same situation when it comes to aik's testimony to us.  He may indeed be telling us the complete truth.  But because he cannot support his testimony with hard, objective evidence, we are unlikely to believe him.

 

Please note that I am not saying that he is lying.  He could be telling us the complete truth.  But without hard, objective evidence to support his testimony his words do not satisfy our standard of acceptable evidence.  And so we are unlikely to believe him - just as the court does not believe the truthful testimony of witness A.

 

Aik himself agreed that the court would be likely to believe witness B's testimony because it was supported by hard, objective evidence.  He clearly understands this.  That objective evidence is more persuasive than an unsupported testimony.  Otherwise he would not have answered as he did, agreeing that B's testimony is more believable.

 

 

But does he also understand that to us he is like witness A, unable to support his testimony with objective evidence?

 

Does he understand that to us his unsupported testimony is not hard, objective evidence, even if he believes it is?

 

Does he understand that believable hard, objective evidence must exist independently of his testimony?

 

Does he understand that what he has seen does not exist independently of him and so is not objective evidence?

 

Does he understand that even if he is telling the truth, we will do as the court did with witness A and be more likely to disbelieve him?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 hours ago, freshstart said:

Wow @DarkBishop.  Very nice approach and response to the Christians like Aik.

That right there ^^^^ should be required reading for every Christian who comes here!

I agree, @DarkBishop.  You should copy/paste this post and use it to start a new topic all on its own.  Maybe tweak it a little to make it more generic and less directed at aik but at christian visitors in general.  This would be a good topic for the Den, as it sets standards both for the behavior we expect from christians, as well as what might be considered compelling evidence from them.  I'd see to it the topic gets pinned, so it will always be visible to new visitors and a quick and handy reference for us regular folk.  What you reckon?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I agree, @DarkBishop.  You should copy/paste this post and use it to start a new topic all on its own.  Maybe tweak it a little to make it more generic and less directed at aik but at christian visitors in general.  This would be a good topic for the Den, as it sets standards both for the behavior we expect from christians, as well as what might be considered compelling evidence from them.  I'd see to it the topic gets pinned, so it will always be visible to new visitors and a quick and handy reference for us regular folk.  What you reckon?

Ok no problem. I will work on that either later tonight or tomorrow.

 

DB 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Just now, DarkBishop said:

Ok no problem. I will work on that either later tonight or tomorrow.

 

DB 

I expect it on my desk no later than close of business tomorrow, or you can find another website to be a rockstar counter-apologist on.    Seriously, though, you hit several nails, and all of them square on the head.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:56 AM, DarkBishop said:

Thank you for your advice. I can see your point about not making absolutes. But the flood of Noah, to me, is an absolute. 

 

Edit:  What I remembered you saying was, "...it never happened."   I see now how you qualified the statement.  I apologize.

 

If I remember correctly, when looking at some of the sumerian interpretations, it appears there WAS a bad tsunami in that area, about that period of time, that covered much of the land and killed most who did not know it was coming.  But the biblical writers took a story thousands of years later, that may have already been exaggerated, and exagerated it even more.  Also, if I remember the story correctly, there was a small group who got warning ahead of time and bulit a raft to save their immediate belongings.  And since not all the land was covered, not all the animals (and people)? died.

 

And that is the way I see much of what is in the Bible.  And why I cringe when people say the bible, and Jesus are fiction.  Fiction means imaginary, invented or untrue.  But there are threads of partial truth in the bible.  I think we could be more effective in our arguments if we approched them in that manner instead of making it an "all or none", "you are wrong, I am right", situation.  With that approach, most people are immediately turned off.

 

And I just had an epiphany about a way to approach my cousin in a discussion.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

The way I interpreted what you said, was that there was no flood at all.  Didn't you say, "...it didn't happen." 

 

If I remember correctly, when looking at some of the sumerian interpretations, it appears there WAS a bad tsunami in that area, about that period of time, that covered much of the land and killed most who did not know it was coming.  But the biblical writers took a story thousands of years later, that may have already been exaggerated, and exagerated it even more.  Also, if I remember the story correctly, there was a small group who got warning ahead of time and bulit a raft to save their immediate belongings.  And since not all the land was covered, not all the animals (and people)? died.

 

And that is the way I see much of what is in the Bible.  And why I cringe when people say the bible, and Jesus are fiction.  Fiction means imaginary, invented or untrue.  But there are threads of partial truth in the bible.  I think we could be more effective in our arguments if we approched them in that manner instead of making it an "all or none", "you are wrong, I am right", situation.  With that approach, most people are immediately turned off.

 

And I just had an epiphany about a way to approach my cousin in a discussion.

 

Weezer,

 

I took your advice and made some changes trying to make it less absolute. The world wide flood did not happen and that was the flood of Noah. Did you take a look at my changes? I was wanting to know if it was better. Not argue points with you. That's what Christians are for.  I do respect your opinion and your advice. I feel like I explained it better after editing. 

 

DB

[◊ Weezer ◊]

4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Weezer,

 

I took your advice and made some changes trying to make it less absolute. The world wide flood did not happen and that was the flood of Noah. Did you take a look at my changes? I was wanting to know if it was better. Not argue points with you. That's what Christians are for.  I do respect your opinion and your advice. I feel like I explained it better after editing. 

 

DB

I apologize, and as you were writing, I was re-reading and modified what I wrote.  

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

45 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I apologize, and as you were writing, I was re-reading and modified what I wrote.  

 

So is the edited version of my post better?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 1/30/2023 at 6:22 PM, DarkBishop said:

So is the edited version of my post better?

[Joshpantera]

On 1/27/2023 at 8:47 AM, aik said:

The biblical power of God is more logical than this atheological one. 

 

Let me ask you. If you meet a miracle that cannot be explained even according to this Conscious Universe theory, you will say that the miracle never happened possibly it was a lie. Am I right? 

 

There is no such thing as a miracle that can't be explained by a Conscious Universe. It works for any religion, any magick, any PSI Phenomenon, and all mysticism. 

 

Do your best to try and find one. And I'll show you one by one how each and every thing you can possibly "think" of, is explained..... 

[Rev R]

On 1/26/2023 at 10:37 PM, aik said:

 Humbleness,  meekness. 

 

 

On 1/27/2023 at 7:10 AM, aik said:

When I say you are lying, it does not mean that you should ask questions Walter. You first go back to the post I attached to my phrase and see what you said there. And correct yourself somehow if you are a man enough, than come back and ask a question. 

 Looks like someone was absent when God passed those attributes around.

[Edgarcito]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:32 PM, Joshpantera said:

 

There is no such thing as a miracle that can't be explained by a Conscious Universe. It works for any religion, any magick, any PSI Phenomenon, and all mysticism. 

 

Do your best to try and find one. And I'll show you one by one how each and every thing you can possibly "think" of, is explained..... 

God almighty, I come here to look around and find stupid shit like this posted.  How about a conscious universe that provides consciousness.  Explain that genius...

 

Nevermind...it will be bullshit anyhow.  

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

God almighty, I come here to look around and find stupid shit like this posted.  How about a conscious universe that provides consciousness.  Explain that genius...

 

Nevermind...it will be bullshit anyhow.  

 

The pot seems to be calling the kettle black here, Ed.

 

Your explanation of reality requires that snakes, donkeys and eagles talk like humans, that the world stands still for a day and nobody but the Israelites notice it and that the entire human race is descended from a mud man and a rib woman.

 

So, before you shout about the splinter in Josh's eye maybe you should deal with the log in yours?

 

 

[pantheory]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

God almighty, I come here to look around and find stupid shit like this posted.  How about a conscious universe that provides consciousness.  Explain that genius...

 

Nevermind...it will be bullshit anyhow.  

 

Calm down Edgarcito.   As you know, we all have different beliefs here, and IMO we should respect each other's beliefs even when we are arguing. Josh believes in a conscious universe. Of course there are many versions of this, ideas, and beliefs. I am not fond of these ideas, but i think the belief in a God is more ridiculous and bullshitish. but I still consider both of you my buddies

[walterpthefirst]

58 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

Calm down Edgarcito.   As you know, we all have different beliefs here, and IMO we should respect each other's beliefs even when we are arguing. Josh believes in a conscious universe. Of course there are many versions of this, ideas, and beliefs. I am not fond of these ideas, but i think the belief in a God is more ridiculous and bullshitish. but I still consider both of you my buddies

 

Pantheory,

 

You are quite right that we all have different beliefs, but this thread is not about beliefs.

 

It's about evidence and knowing what is real.

 

And yet Edgarcito called Josh's belief about a Conscious Universe bullshit.

 

While presenting no evidence to support his own beliefs.

 

And presenting no evidence to contradict Josh's beliefs.

 

Hence the saying, 'The pot is calling the kettle black'.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So, just because a person can not, or does not, adequately explain some particular facet of an idea, that means the entire idea is bullshit?  Is that how it works?  I mean, Sir Isaac Newton was unable to adequately account for relativity in his theory.  Many years later, Einstein demonstrated the flaw in Newton's process.  So, what?  Are we all supposed to just fly off the planet now because Newton was wrong and therefore gravity's bullshit?  What a short-sighted, and narrow-minded, approach.

 

But, okay, what the hell; let's apply this approach evenly across the board.  Edgarcito has made numerous attempts over the past decade to explain why the christian god refuses to prevent evil and suffering.  Ed has failed miserably every single time; as have christians of every flavor and stripe for 2,000 years.  Well, if an inability to adequately explain one detail of an idea nullifies the entire idea, that must mean that the christian god is bullshit.  The bible is bullshit.  Even jesus is bullshit.  Because nobody can explain the christian god's refusal to prevent evil and suffering. 

 

That's how it works, right?  Thanks, Ed.  Once again you have brought light into the dark places of our minds.

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Pantheory,

 

You are quite right that we all have different beliefs, but this thread is not about beliefs.

 

It's about evidence and knowing what is real.

 

And yet Edgarcito called Josh's belief about a Conscious Universe bullshit.

 

While presenting no evidence to support his own beliefs.

 

And presenting no evidence to contradict Josh's beliefs.

 

Hence the saying, 'The pot is calling the kettle black'.

 

I agree, but it's also very difficult IMO to contradict the fiction stories of the Bible excepting for the Books of Genesis and Revelation, which are easily contradicted by science.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Out of curiosity, how is a conscious universe providing consciousness any different, in theory or practice, than a conscious god providing consciousness?  Consciousness obviously exists; but why would a person accept god did it as a better explanation than the universe did it?  The universe has the advantage of a testable existence and measurable form; so how does introducing an untestable, unobservable,  unmeasurable (imaginary) god offer a better explanation?  Any attribute that can be ascribed to god can also be applied to a conscious universe.  The only difference being that the universe actually exists. 

 

Occam's Razor, dude.  It works if you work it.

[freshstart]

8 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

God almighty, I come here to look around and find stupid shit like this posted.  How about a conscious universe that provides consciousness.  Explain that genius...

 

Nevermind...it will be bullshit anyhow.  

Jesus, here we go again. Note how civil the discussion was until the professed Christian comes along hurling insults yet again and casting the first stone from a glass house.

[walterpthefirst]

6 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

I agree, but it's also very difficult IMO to contradict the fiction stories of the Bible excepting for the Books of Genesis and Revelation, which are easily contradicted by science.

 

Amen.

 

And here's where the parable of the house built upon a foundation of sand works in our favour, Pantheory.  Since the creation narrative and the Eden narrative in Genesis are so clearly at odds with what science tells us about the origin of the world and of humans, everything built on that (i.e., the rest of the bible) is built on sand.  

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.