walterpthefirst Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 5 hours ago, freshstart said: Jesus, here we go again. Note how civil the discussion was until the professed Christian comes along hurling insults yet again and casting the first stone from a glass house. Perhaps he does it because he knows it offends us, freshstart? And he delights in causing offence, upset and strife? "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of god." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 10 hours ago, pantheory said: I agree, but it's also very difficult IMO to contradict the fiction stories of the Bible excepting for the Books of Genesis and Revelation, which are easily contradicted by science. I can't really agree. It is according to what story your talking about. Exodus seems like it could be easily disproven by several sciences. It is definitely disproven as historical fact by archeology. IMO. I'm sure there are several other sciences that could disprove the plagues in Egypt, the splitting of the red sea, being lead by columns of fire or smoke, water spontaneously coming from a rock to give water to millions of people. As well most of the miracles of Jesus and the apostles can be disproven to be possible. I can think of parts of judges and kings where extra ordinary impossible events happened. Fire coming down from heaven to consume burnt offerings. People traveling around in the bellies of whales. Losing your great God like strength just by getting a hair cut. People being cemetery engulfed in flames and remaining unharmed without even the smell of smoke on their clothes. Then I think about the stories after that which can't be disproven or proven. Like the lineage of the kings. Why is there so little proof of a king David? Or their first king.. Saul? The Bible portrays them and a lot of the judges as great leaders. But nothing is really left behind .......... ? Even Jesus himself. Why can they not find enough to definitively say such a great character in history actually existed and that his "True" story is what we read about in the bible? From what little I've read about what the romans actually recorded about them during early church history. They were pretty much just regarded as a cult. Or a Jewish "Sect". Bottom line is, I think there is a lot in the bible that science can dismiss as fiction. DB Edit: There was also the time the sun went 10 degrees backward for king Hezekiah. 2 kings 20. God was really in to showing signs back then. Wonder why he doesn't now? Doesn't sound like the same God. Could you imagine the destructive force that would actually be placed on earth if our natural rotation and course around the sun were to sudden be sling in reverse? I imagine everything on earth would be slung into the vacuum of space . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 Ultimately, everything we say is wrong with the biblical narrative concerning creation, the earth, and the universe can easily be reconciled if we convert over to flat earth theory. The sun went back ten degrees without any cataclysmic destruction because the sun circles the disc of the earth. Water came up from the deep and was let in from the waters above the dome to fill the earth with water for the great flood. God is up in the clouds looking down on us from the heavens under the dome. A lot really fits if we just believe in flat earth. Praise the LORD!!!! Thats it!!! The earth must be flat!!!! It is only when we rely on our own understanding and discoveries that it doesn't fit. @Edgarcito @aik Do you guys believe the earth is flat? DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 11, 2023 Super Moderator Share Posted February 11, 2023 42 minutes ago, DarkBishop said: A lot really fits if we just believe in flat earth. The only thing we have to fear is sphere itself. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 On 1/27/2023 at 11:41 AM, pantheory said: Yes Josh, Many in science make mistakes, both the religious and non-religious. Forget about Einstein's idea of space-time. It must be understood from a particular perspective. Space is absolutely fundamental and time is absolutely fundamental. Space-time as a unity is a perspective, just like the statement that humans are fundamental, which is another perspective that is not either correct or incorrect. These are simply ways of looking at things from different points of view. And my perspective is that everything is simple to understand if one has all the relevant information. Reductionism is still valid. Looking for ever smaller entities will always be a valid quest IMO. Physics is a math- dominated science. Calculated determinations and predictions are its goal. A physicist's theory about the "why" or "how" questions concerning his understandings of reality are rarely better than pure speculation with nothing to back it up. I think it's the complexity that gets us ultimately. Betting the best analysis of that complexity is derived from greed.....the data collection and analysis that shows how we shop.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 50 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I think it's the complexity that gets us ultimately. Betting the best analysis of that complexity is derived from greed.....the data collection and analysis that shows how we shop.... Hi Edgarcito, As I think you already know, I am a scientist. My own theory, links below, are long but much easier to understand IMO than mainstream cosmology and physics. So to me, nothing is really complicated, just a bunch of endless detail. Although somewhat of an entrepreneur, greed and shopping have little to do with my life. My world is primarily traveling the world and teaching my own science theory and ideas of reality -- along with study, writing, laughing, singing, dancing, philandering, with some charitable works. Cheers and best regards, Forrest http://www.pantheory.org/ https://papers.pantheory.org/ https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=7ONCj-kAAAAJ&hl=en 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted February 16, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 16, 2023 On 2/10/2023 at 2:39 PM, Edgarcito said: God almighty, I come here to look around and find stupid shit like this posted. How about a conscious universe that provides consciousness. Explain that genius... Nevermind...it will be bullshit anyhow. Drunk post? Or just sober, but incoherent rambling? The challenge was for the Russian to provide an example of a miracle that primary Consciousness doesn't explain simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted February 16, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 16, 2023 On 2/10/2023 at 9:57 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said: Out of curiosity, how is a conscious universe providing consciousness any different, in theory or practice, than a conscious god providing consciousness? Consciousness obviously exists; but why would a person accept god did it as a better explanation than the universe did it? The universe has the advantage of a testable existence and measurable form; so how does introducing an untestable, unobservable, unmeasurable (imaginary) god offer a better explanation? Any attribute that can be ascribed to god can also be applied to a conscious universe. The only difference being that the universe actually exists. Occam's Razor, dude. It works if you work it. That's the idea. He won't be able to ascribe anything to a supernatural god that wouldn't more simply apply to Natural Conscious Universe. I wonder if he'll even try to get around it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 Just think if all of us are alters (5:00 on Josh's video) of the great universal consciousness...theists and atheists and every other flavor of people are all part of the same indivisible non-duality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 I had emailed some material to aik a few weeks ago. 8 days ago I sent a PM to see if he had got it. He answered back almost immediately and said he had recieved it but was in bed sick, "ache in bones, weak, and had fever", and would get back to me. I haven't heard from him, and it doesn't look like he has posted anything, but it looks like he was on the site monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 16, 2023 Super Moderator Share Posted February 16, 2023 I certainly hope aik gets to feeling better soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 I question if he is sick, or finding an excuse not to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 4 hours ago, Weezer said: I question if he is sick, or finding an excuse not to come back. If he said he was sick he probably is. I think lying and being accused of lying is a serious thing to Aik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 16, 2023 Super Moderator Share Posted February 16, 2023 11 hours ago, Joshpantera said: He won't be able to ascribe anything to a supernatural god that wouldn't more simply apply to Natural Conscious Universe. Speaking strictly for myself, the only way to find any kind of meaningful spirituality is to operate within the parameters of what we know. Anything outside of those parameters is just guesswork; and your guess is as good as mine. How can that lead me to find a spirituality with any real, significant meaning? And how could borrowing someone else's version of spirituality help me achieve my better Self? I've often said that intelligence is being able to understand the world around you; and wisdom is being able to understand your place in it. Similarly, whether your spirituality is based on a demonstrably real universe, a measurable ecosystem, or just the basic psychology of your own mind, knowing where and how you should fit in to wherever you are, by becoming a better, truer version of your Self, is, I think, the noblest of objectives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Speaking strictly for myself, the only way to find any kind of meaningful spirituality is to operate within the parameters of what we know. Anything outside of those parameters is just guesswork; and your guess is as good as mine. Yes, that is what we operate from, but there are things outside what we know. If we stop intake of new information, we stagnate. And maybe there are things outside the natural consciuos universe than we presently know?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 2 hours ago, DarkBishop said: If he said he was sick he probably is. I think lying and being accused of lying is a serious thing to Aik. I shouldn't have said "finding" an excuse. He may not be consciously lying. When people are up against something that shakes the foundation of their being, they can "get sick". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 16, 2023 Super Moderator Share Posted February 16, 2023 2 hours ago, Weezer said: Yes, that is what we operate from, but there are things outside what we know. If we stop intake of new information, we stagnate. And maybe there are things outside the natural consciuos universe than we presently know?? Sure, the parameters can, and should, change as new information comes along. But I am still operating within the parameters of what we know. We just know more now than we did before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 17 hours ago, Joshpantera said: Drunk post? Or just sober, but incoherent rambling? The challenge was for the Russian to provide an example of a miracle that primary Consciousness doesn't explain simpler. Surely, before any examples of a miracle are presented it's necessary that we agree as to what constitutes a miracle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: Surely, before any examples of a miracle are presented it's necessary that we agree as to what constitutes a miracle? mir·a·cle /ˈmirək(ə)l/ Learn to pronounce noun a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency. "the miracle of rising from the grave" Similar: supernatural phenomenon mystery prodigy sign a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences. "it was a miracle that more people hadn't been killed or injured" an amazing product or achievement, or an outstanding example of something. "a machine which was a miracle of design" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 22 hours ago, Joshpantera said: Drunk post? Or just sober, but incoherent rambling? The challenge was for the Russian to provide an example of a miracle that primary Consciousness doesn't explain simpler. Ok, so the Christian God wouldn't be primary consciousness? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, midniterider said: mir·a·cle /ˈmirək(ə)l/ Learn to pronounce noun a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency. "the miracle of rising from the grave" Similar: supernatural phenomenon mystery prodigy sign a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences. "it was a miracle that more people hadn't been killed or injured" an amazing product or achievement, or an outstanding example of something. "a machine which was a miracle of design" I'm going with highly improbable, but guess what, it happened just that one time, and bam, a miracle......or at least perceived a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 3+ minutes into it @Joshpanteraand it sure sounds like he's arguing for a soul captured in a physical world. I'm wondering why you're not getting chastised as the Christians do here.....a mod even. Or perhaps Walter can help you define transient consciousness in an objective sense so it won't just be bullshit like the Christians spew..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 17, 2023 Super Moderator Share Posted February 17, 2023 39 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Ok, so the Christian God wouldn't be primary consciousness? Why does there need to be a god at all, if the universe is primary consciousness, Ed? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: 3+ minutes into it @Joshpanteraand it sure sounds like he's arguing for a soul captured in a physical world. I'm wondering why you're not getting chastised as the Christians do here.....a mod even. Or perhaps Walter can help you define transient consciousness in an objective sense so it won't just be bullshit like the Christians spew..... Josh doesn't need my help Edgarcito. He can fight his own battles. All he has to do to win when fighting you is to remain consistent. Something you find very hard to do. As per the following example. A week ago you said that his (non-Christian) explanation of a conscious universe would be bullshit. But today you've said that Christians spew bullshit. Please make up your mind! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 25 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: 3+ minutes into it @Joshpanteraand it sure sounds like he's arguing for a soul captured in a physical world. I'm wondering why you're not getting chastised as the Christians do here.....a mod even. Or perhaps Walter can help you define transient consciousness in an objective sense so it won't just be bullshit like the Christians spew..... Josh isn't getting chastised by a Mod because of Occam's Razor, Ed. Which is what Josh himself alluded to 23 hours ago. The challenge was for the Russian to provide an example of a miracle that primary Consciousness doesn't explain simpler. The Mod in question can see what Josh meant and has asked you about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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