Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 1, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: My statement was regarding eternal life and free will. Can we stick to that discussion as that’s the instance I do see your statement being correct. Thx No. We will stick to the topic of this thread, which is god's violation of free will in order to implement his "plan." If you want to start a separate thread to discuss a different topic, you're more than welcome to do so. But you will not sidetrack this one with your distractions. Thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 23 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No. We will stick to the topic of this thread, which is god's violation of free will in order to implement his "plan." If you want to start a separate thread to discuss a different topic, you're more than welcome to do so. But you will not sidetrack this one with your distractions. Thanks. It’s directed to your point, that you even made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 Let's take a closer look at the scenario with our hypothetical sex slave, Ed; and see if we can determine if she genuinely has free will in choosing salvation. She is trafficked into slavery when she is ten years old; and spends the next 20 years being brutalized, raped, and humiliated. Although she is fed a constant stream of opioids and sedatives to keep her compliant, nevertheless, she is hospitalized on multiple occasions due to the cruelty of her captors and rapists both. Finally at the age of 30, no longer being attractive enough to be profitable, she is discarded in a dark alleyway, beaten and left for dead. But even though she survives, she finds herself addicted to drugs, emotionally broken, unable to provide for herself, and suffering from the ill-effects of a couple different sexually transmitted diseases. Eventually she reaches the end of hope and in utter despair she calls out to the lord... It's going to make for a powerful testimony, no? But let's put this scenario into the context of god's plan. This supposedly "higher" purpose of god's. You see, god knew, in his perfect plan, that if she just suffered enough, if she was just desperate enough, brutalized enough, humiliated enough, then she would finally be just vulnerable enough to "choose" salvation. And so god allowed all of that to be inflicted upon her, through no choice of her own. But is she really making the choice of her own genuine free will and volition? Or is she making the choice because she was thrust into circumstances beyond her control that ultimately forced the decision upon her? Is she choosing jesus out of a sense of love, honor, and trust (about which her life has taught her nothing)? Or is she choosing jesus because god manipulated her situation according to his divine plan and higher purpose? See, Ed, if god is truly in control and uses every situation and circumstance to his greater purpose, then he essentially forced her into a life of sexual slavery just so she would eventually become desperate enough to accept jesus. Even the "choice" of salvation has nothing to do with free will. Your god is evil. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: It’s directed to your point, that you even made. It has been addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 Life was never our choice nor is it now. Death is, but not life. So it’s not free will in that respect. That’s my point today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Life was never our choice nor is it now. Death is, but not life. So it’s not free will in that respect. That’s my point today. Okay. None of this has anything to do with god violating free will in order to accomplish his higher purpose. Stay on topic or start your own thread. I ain't asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 15 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Okay. None of this has anything to do with god violating free will in order to accomplish his higher purpose. Stay on topic or start your own thread. I ain't asking. You won’t even take a guess AT higher purpose, so proposing one is off topic? I’ll bow out. Y’all continue affirming each other….not a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: You won’t even take a guess AT higher purpose, so proposing one is off topic? I’ll bow out. Y’all continue affirming each other….not a problem. That's fine. It's not like you ever address the points we make, answer our questions, or make any other attempt to hold your half of the conversation, anyway. You may as well not be here, since all you offer is distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 48 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Let's take a closer look at the scenario with our hypothetical sex slave, Ed; and see if we can determine if she genuinely has free will in choosing salvation. She is trafficked into slavery when she is ten years old; and spends the next 20 years being brutalized, raped, and humiliated. Although she is fed a constant stream of opioids and sedatives to keep her compliant, nevertheless, she is hospitalized on multiple occasions due to the cruelty of her captors and rapists both. Finally at the age of 30, no longer being attractive enough to be profitable, she is discarded in a dark alleyway, beaten and left for dead. But even though she survives, she finds herself addicted to drugs, emotionally broken, unable to provide for herself, and suffering from the ill-effects of a couple different sexually transmitted diseases. Eventually she reaches the end of hope and in utter despair she calls out to the lord... It's going to make for a powerful testimony, no? But let's put this scenario into the context of god's plan. This supposedly "higher" purpose of god's. You see, god knew, in his perfect plan, that if she just suffered enough, if she was just desperate enough, brutalized enough, humiliated enough, then she would finally be just vulnerable enough to "choose" salvation. And so god allowed all of that to be inflicted upon her, through no choice of her own. But is she really making the choice of her own genuine free will and volition? Or is she making the choice because she was thrust into circumstances beyond her control that ultimately forced the decision upon her? Is she choosing jesus out of a sense of love, honor, and trust (about which her life has taught her nothing)? Or is she choosing jesus because god manipulated her situation according to his divine plan and higher purpose? See, Ed, if god is truly in control and uses every situation and circumstance to his greater purpose, then he essentially forced her into a life of sexual slavery just so she would eventually become desperate enough to accept jesus. Even the "choice" of salvation has nothing to do with free will. Your god is evil. You’re not listening to my point… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: You’re not listening to my point… Reckon I don't need to since you're bowing out anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 How must your young girl pick salvation when it’s not her choice in the first place. She didn’t pick her creation that I know, nor does she have the ability to control eternal life. So how can her free will be violated if she never had a true choice. It’s interesting that we can END life… that mechanism. In that, salvation is a message of knowledge, not a violation by God. Ok I’m done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: How must your young girl pick salvation when it’s not her choice in the first place. She didn’t pick her creation that I know, nor does she have the ability to control eternal life. So how can her free will be violated if she never had a true choice. It’s interesting that we can END life… that mechanism. In that, salvation is a message of knowledge, not a violation by God. Ok I’m done. So, you admit that god violates her free will in multiple ways. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said: So, you admit that god violates her free will in multiple ways. Thank you. No, you’re conflating His vs hers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 Just now, Edgarcito said: No, you’re conflating His vs hers. 13 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: How must your young girl pick salvation when it’s not her choice in the first place. She didn’t pick her creation that I know, nor does she have the ability to control eternal life. So how can her free will be violated if she never had a true choice. It’s interesting that we can END life… that mechanism. In that, salvation is a message of knowledge, not a violation by God. Ok I’m done. You cite multiple examples of her free will being violated here, Ed. No one is conflating anything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 17 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: In that, salvation is a message of knowledge, not a violation by God. As an aside, since this assertion is nothing more than mere distraction, scripture makes it plain that salvation is a matter of faith, not a message of knowledge. Given that faith is the opposite of knowledge, salvation must either be one or the other. It cannot be both. We know this because A and not-A cannot both be simultaneously true. Believe the bible or don't, I don't care; but don't tell me you're a christian if you're preaching a different gospel from what the bible says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 22 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Ok I’m done. Be done then. Walt and I need to get back to affirming one another. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 Hey, Walt. I affirm you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 32 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: You cite multiple examples of her free will being violated here, Ed. No one is conflating anything. Then please define her free will. Her only choice is not to choose death to her/our ability, hence faith for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freshstart Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 12 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Given what we know now via science, it seems suspect that the writers would intentionally use faith as the bait. I'm not sure I follow. I wasn't implying that biblical writers were using "faith as bait." Bait for what? 12 hours ago, Edgarcito said: In other words, I don't think they knew that ultimately, we couldn't explain our existence/place in the universe. I would agree. They knew barely anything that we understand to be true now and could not even imagine the world as we currently know it. Which makes it all the more bizzare that anyone would give any merit to biblical advice or directions on how to live. 6 hours ago, Edgarcito said: My statement was regarding eternal life and free will. I, for one, have no desire for eternal life. Death is what makes life so special. So to Walter's point, if the Christian god really existed, I would have no choice in the matter of eternal life. So once again . . . no free will. And yes, RNP brings up uncomfortable scenarios of "free will" for exploration. Why avoid discussion? Could it be that it creates cognitive dissonance? Or there are no good Christian answers/explanations for these scenarios? Why not just admit there are glaring problems, but you're willing to overlook them because you believe there is some mystery yet to be explained that will somehow make all the misery in the world "purposeful," according to God's divine plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 6 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Hey, Walt. I affirm you. Thanks Prof! It felt good, by the way. Your technique is very affirmative. I woke up this morning with a nice post-affirmation glow in my special parts. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Then please define her free will. Her only choice is not to choose death to her/our ability, hence faith for life. What's the point of the Prof doing that? You, as the Christian, already believe (by faith and without evidence) that the little girl has no choice but to live eternally, either in bliss or in the flames. According to your own beliefs, she can't not choose either of these destinations. So it falls to you to define how not having the choice to opt out is a free choice. How is a coerced and penalised choice a free choice, Ed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 7 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Then please define her free will. Her only choice is not to choose death to her/our ability, hence faith for life. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2023 7 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Then please define her free will. Her only choice is not to choose death to her/our ability, hence faith for life. It is clear from this post, Ed, that you do believe that the only decision where a person's free will matters is that of salvation. That any choices she may or may not have made concerning her own body, her own future, the course of her own life, are all irrelevant. If that truly is your position, I've got nothing more to say to you on the subject. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: It is clear from this post, Ed, that you do believe that the only decision where a person's free will matters is that of salvation. That any choices she may or may not have made concerning her own body, her own future, the course of her own life, are all irrelevant. If that truly is your position, I've got nothing more to say to you on the subject. The ignore on your buddy is still not working please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 12 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Then please define her free will. Her only choice is not to choose death to her/our ability, hence faith for life. Are you saying that the only FREE choice she has (and therefore we all have) is not to commit suicide? If so, that implies that you consider all the other choices she had (and we have) are not FREE. And yet aren't you on record as saying that we are all FREE to accept or reject Jesus, Ed? So, by that logic, nobody ever makes a FREE choice to believe in Jesus. Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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