Suffering for the Good of the World

[TheRedneckProfessor]

18 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Taking the example of the plague that god inflicted upon Israel in 1 Chronicles 21, did seventy thousand men really have to die so that god could discipline King David?  And let's not forget their wives, children and wider families, who would also have suffered the loss of their husbands, fathers, brothers and uncles.  Just for god to discipline one man?  Doesn't that sound a little excessive?  Or even cruel?  Evil perhaps?

 

Perhaps Edgarcito would like to explain how this kind of heavenly 'discipline' is a loving thing?

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

@Edgarcito, what say you, friend?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Doesn't that sound a little excessive?  Or even cruel?  Evil perhaps?

Why not punish David like he punished Saul? God plays favorites a lot in the bible. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Why not punish David like he punished Saul? God plays favorites a lot in the bible. 

 

DB

 

A good question, DB.

 

And when god confined the rebel angels in chains of darkness to await judgment, why did he play favourites with them?

 

 

2 Peter 2 : 4

 

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

 

Jude 6

 

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

 

God could have saved the entire world from being corrupted by sin and death by binding Satan too.

 

But he played favourites and left Satan free to become a snake and corrupt Adam and Eve.

 

Where was god's foresight, wisdom and love towards his innocent children in letting Satan do that?

 

The same foresight, wisdom and love that Edgarcito would have shown if his children were endangered by a snake?

 

Perhaps Edgarcito can explain why he has more foresight, wisdom and love than his 'perfect' god?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

The same foresight, wisdom and love that Edgarcito would have shown if his children were endangered by a snake?

 

Perhaps Edgarcito can explain why he has more foresight, wisdom and love than his 'perfect' god?

 

It would be nice if he could connect those dots. But we already know he has big blind spots when it comes to the Lort almighty. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

It would be nice if he could connect those dots. But we already know he has big blind spots when it comes to the Lort almighty. 

 

DB

 

I dunno, DB.

 

I would submit that THE defining characteristic of Ed's persona is stubbornness.

 

That he doesn't actually have those big blind spots and he can and has connected those dots.

 

But because he's stubborn to the core he won't publicly yield from a position he's held in this forum for years and years.

 

The flip side of this is that Christians claim that many atheists know deep down that there is a god but they are too stubborn to openly admit it and some would even prefer to spend eternity in hell than publicly yield to what they know is true.

 

I'm just suggesting that Ed's mindset is similar.

 

He knows that he can't win any arguments based upon logic or evidence, so he stubbornly holds to faith.

 

He knows that god is less moral than he is.

 

He knows that god is less wise, less compassionate and less loving than he is.

 

But his core-deep stubbornness prevents him from admitting these things.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

18 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Taking the example of the plague that god inflicted upon Israel in 1 Chronicles 21, did seventy thousand men really have to die so that god could discipline King David?  And let's not forget their wives, children and wider families, who would also have suffered the loss of their husbands, fathers, brothers and uncles.  Just for god to discipline one man?  Doesn't that sound a little excessive?  Or even cruel?  Evil perhaps?

This line of reasoning has put a new thought into my mind this morning, still half-formed, and maybe more of an epiphany or realization than a thought. 

 

The god of the bible puts his own, predetermined "greater good" above all other considerations.  

 

I've pondered before that god himself has free will, that he makes his own decisions without duress and of his own volition.  Of course, his "free" will suffers the same logical contradiction as our own, in that, if he is omniscient and already knows what decision he will make, is he then free to change it?

 

Leaving that aside, though, for the moment, let's consider god's "greater good."  In order to achieve this higher purpose (punishing King David), he freely chose to kill tens of thousands of men.  In other words, he considered his own plan to be more important than their lives; he considered his own purpose for one man to have more value than the tens of thousands of orphans and widows his actions produced in consequence. 

 

He made this decision freely, without duress, of his own volition.

 

He chose to put his plan above all other considerations, including the suffering of innocent women and children.

 

It's the same with the Rosa Marias of the world.  This supposedly omnibenevolent god thinks his plan is more important than a little girl being raped, brutalized, and murdered. 

 

Do you know who else considered their plan to be more important than the lives of tens of thousands of human beings?  Adolf Hitler.

 

Do you know who else considers their own ego and glory to be more valuable than the lives of innocent women and children?  Kim Jong Un. 

 

Joseph Stalin.

 

Pol Pot.

 

god is not mysterious; he's just a megalomaniacal dictator.  

 

And yet the Eds of the world trust him, love him, worship him.  But he doesn't give a shit about their lives as long as his "greater goid" is achieved. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:28 PM, Edgarcito said:

Just a thought....how do we know these things won't be ultimately granted..

ARBEIT MACHT FREI

 

Every Jew, Pole, Gypsy, and political prisoner who walked through the gate at Auschwitz read these words.  I've seen them, too.  Did they really believe that work would bring them freedom?  Not really.  In the back of their minds they all knew it was bullshit; but it was kinder and gentler than a sign that said "Abandon Hope, All Who Enter."

 

The "promises" of god seem a lot like that to me.  Deep down we all know, even you, Ed, that it's all bullshit; but it is a happy little lie to tell oneself when one is going through the shit and there isn't any other hope left.

[walterpthefirst]

22 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

 

This is an interesting new line of thought, Prof.

 

However, there are a few points I'd like to make about your post.

 

22 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

 

This line of reasoning has put a new thought into my mind this morning, still half-formed, and maybe more of an epiphany or realization than a thought. 

 

The god of the bible puts his own, predetermined "greater good" above all other considerations.  

 

I've pondered before that god himself has free will, that he makes his own decisions without duress and of his own volition.  Of course, his "free" will suffers the same logical contradiction as our own, in that, if he is omniscient and already knows what decision he will make, is he then free to change it?

 

Leaving that aside, though, for the moment, let's consider god's "greater good."  In order to achieve this higher purpose (punishing King David), he freely chose to kill tens of thousands of men.  In other words, he considered his own plan to be more important than their lives; he considered his own purpose for one man to have more value than the tens of thousands of orphans and widows his actions produced in consequence. 

 

A Christian apologist might argue that god's higher purpose here was not just to punish David, but to discipline him by punishing the people David ruled over on god's behalf.  That it was necessary for the people to suffer and die and their families to also suffer, so that David could become a better king.

 

22 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

He made this decision freely, without duress, of his own volition.

 

He chose to put his plan above all other considerations, including the suffering of innocent women and children.

 

From god's p.o.v. these women and children were NOT innocent.  Yes, they were innocent of David's sin but because Eve was the mother of ALL the living, nobody born of a woman (except Jesus and perhaps Melchizedek) is truly innocent in gods eyes.

 

Also, nobody deserves their own life.  They are granted their lives by god and their lives are his to give or take as he sees fit.  The Lord gives and He takes away.  (Job 1 :21)

 

Lastly, who are you to talk back to god and question his plans?  

 

Romans 9 : 19 - 23

 

 

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 

 

22 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It's the same with the Rosa Marias of the world.  This supposedly omnibenevolent god thinks his plan is more important than a little girl being raped, brutalized, and murdered. 

 

Do you know who else considered their plan to be more important than the lives of tens of thousands of human beings?  Adolf Hitler.

 

Do you know who else considers their own ego and glory to be more valuable than the lives of innocent women and children?  Kim Jong Un. 

 

Joseph Stalin.

 

Pol Pot.

 

Ah yes, but these were just men.  Again, who are you to compare gods ways to the ways of men?

 

Isaiah 55 : 8 & 9

 

⁸ “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

22 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

god is not mysterious; he's just a megalomaniacal dictator.  

 

And yet the Eds of the world trust him, love him, worship him.  But he doesn't give a shit about their lives as long as his "greater goid" is achieved. 

 

And perhaps this is what keeps Edgarcito faithful, Prof?

 

Despite the fact that he can see that god doesn't give a shit about the lives of mere human beings and despite the fact that he can see that god is his moral inferior, he stubbornly clings to the hope that some greater good will come out of all the suffering god has inflicted on the world.

 

And that perhaps, in the long run, so long as he remains stubbornly faithful in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and a contradictory bible, Ed will have a share in this greater good?

 

After all, being stubborn seems to be what he's good at.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

32 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Lastly, who are you to talk back to god and question his plans?  

 

32 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Again, who are you to compare gods ways to the ways of men?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

34 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

A Christian apologist might argue that god's higher purpose here was not just to punish David, but to discipline him by punishing the people David ruled over on god's behalf.  That it was necessary for the people to suffer and die and their families to also suffer, so that David could become a better king.

To which I would respond with a dissertation on the immorality of substitutionary punishment; and the entire premise upon which christianity is built.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

45 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

From god's p.o.v. these women and children were NOT innocent.  Yes, they were innocent of David's sin but because Eve was the mother of ALL the living, nobody born of a woman (except Jesus and perhaps Melchizedek) is truly innocent in gods eyes.

 

Also, nobody deserves their own life.  They are granted their lives by god and their lives are his to give or take as he sees fit.  The Lord gives and He takes away.  Job 1 :21

 

From Kim Jong Un's p.o.v. these women and children were NOT innocent.  Yes, they were innocent of their father/husband's sin but because Kim Jong Un is the father of ALL the living, nobody born of a North Korean woman is truly innocent in Kim Jong Un's eyes.

 

Also, nobody deserves their own life.  They are granted their lives by Kim Jong Un and their lives are his to give or take as he sees fit.  The Eternal Leader gives and He takes away.  

 

This is the justification for the 3-generation punishment used in North Korea.  Far from absolving god, it only underscores his tyrannical nature.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

26 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

From Kim Jong Un's p.o.v. these women and children were NOT innocent.  Yes, they were innocent of their father/husband's sin but because Kim Jong Un is the father of ALL the living, nobody born of a North Korean woman is truly innocent in Kim Jong Un's eyes.

 

Also, nobody deserves their own life.  They are granted their lives by Kim Jong Un and their lives are his to give or take as he sees fit.  The Eternal Leader gives and He takes away.  

 

This is the justification for the 3-generation punishment used in North Korea.  Far from absolving god, it only underscores his tyrannical nature.

 

Source:  https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Prisons-of-North-Korea-English.pdf

 

@TheRedneckProfessor.  That seems not a fair reading of the situation.  Everything god does is "good" and in fact, none is good save god.  Therefore, emulating god in enforcing multi-generational punishment should be a good thing that Kim Jong Un does?  Unless this is a case of god demonstrating "do as I say and not as I do?"

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Krowb said:

 

Source:  https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Prisons-of-North-Korea-English.pdf

 

@TheRedneckProfessor.  That seems not a fair reading of the situation.  Everything god does is "good" and in fact, none is good save god.  Therefore, emulating god in enforcing multi-generational punishment should be a good thing that Kim Jong Un does?  Unless this is a case of god demonstrating "do as I say and not as I do?"

I'm sure to the average North Korean, everything the Dear Leader does is also good.  I suppose it is only having a different standard of morality and ethics that causes me to recoil from it.

 

I wonder if Kim Jong Un would consider killing his son and heir if it meant forgiving any and all prisoners who promised to spend eternity kissing his ass.

[walterpthefirst]

Your arguments are not persuasive, Prof.

 

They are based upon reason, logic and evidence.

 

How can they possibly prevail against beliefs that are unreasonable, illogical and which aren't based upon evidence?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Your arguments are not persuasive, Prof.

 

They are based upon reason, logic and evidence.

 

How can they possibly prevail against beliefs that are unreasonable, illogical and which aren't based upon evidence?

 

 

Walt, anyone who can be persuaded by a good argument can be persuaded otherwise by an even better argument.  That is why the goal is not to persuade; but rather to present, and let the audience decide for themselves. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

9 hours ago, Krowb said:

 

Source:  https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Prisons-of-North-Korea-English.pdf

 

@TheRedneckProfessor.  That seems not a fair reading of the situation.  Everything god does is "good" and in fact, none is good save god.  Therefore, emulating god in enforcing multi-generational punishment should be a good thing that Kim Jong Un does?  Unless this is a case of god demonstrating "do as I say and not as I do?"

This hardens back to that age-old dilemma of morality: Is it good because god does it; or does god do it because it is good?  Invariably, when it comes to bashing babies' brains out against the stones, christians have to come up with some way of making it good because god did it (or, at least, ordered and condoned it).  But is it?  

 

Why are so many of the things god does do not good by human standards of morality and ethics?  Is it because he's mysterious and shit?  Or is it that he's just a fucking asshole?  Or is it more likely that he simply does not exist and the bible is just a book of myths written by ignorant men with a penchant for power and control?

[walterpthefirst]

38 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Walt, anyone who can be persuaded by a good argument can be persuaded otherwise by an even better argument.  That is why the goal is not to persuade; but rather to present, and let the audience decide for themselves. 

 

Exactly.

 

That portion of the audience that cannot be persuaded by any argument will certainly not be persuaded by yours.

 

But we already knew that, didn't we?

 

And so the goal is not to persuade the unpersuadable but to present reasoned, logical and evidence-based arguments and let those who still have the capacity to think for themselves decide for themselves.

 

 

(Shudders)

 

Most of the time my usual modus operandi (devil's advocate) is a role I can easily play.  But this time the act of putting myself into the shoes of the unreasonable, illogical and evidence-denying believer has made me feel defiled.  

[walterpthefirst]

5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This hardens back to that age-old dilemma of morality: Is it good because god does it; or does god do it because it is good?  Invariably, when it comes to bashing babies' brains out against the stones, christians have to come up with some way of making it good because god did it (or, at least, ordered and condoned it).  But is it?  

 

Why are so many of the things god does do not good by human standards of morality and ethics?  Is it because he's mysterious and shit?  Or is it that he's just a fucking asshole?  Or is it more likely that he simply does not exist and the bible is just a book of myths written by ignorant men with a penchant for power and control?

 

Nope, not mysterious and shit. 

 

Nor the fucking asshole option either.

 

The bible is so contradictory, so flawed and so badly written that the god described therein could only have been the product of the narrow minds of backward, misogynistic and intolerant men with a thirst for power and control.

[Edgarcito]

On 5/21/2023 at 12:52 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@Edgarcito, what say you, friend?

Sorry, participated in a powerlifting event for old farts....  Let me catch up here in a bit.  Sorry for the delay.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Sorry, participated in a powerlifting event for old farts....  Let me catch up here in a bit.  Sorry for the delay.

 

Take your time.  Apparently, we have all of eternity, whether we want it or not. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 5/22/2023 at 7:06 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

Nope, not mysterious and shit. 

 

Nor the fucking asshole option either.

 

The bible is so contradictory, so flawed and so badly written that the god described therein could only have been the product of the narrow minds of backward, misogynistic and intolerant men with a thirst for power and control.

 

BINGO!  Add to that, sly, sadistic, ruthless, and master manipulators, and several words along those lines.  God of the Bible is a concept made up by humans. Think of it like this.  Being angry at God is being angry at those qualities that all of us have the potential for, under the right conditions.  If you don't like me----obey me---etc, I will destroy you!  I will destroy humanity!  (the thinking of mass shooters today)

 

Who I am really angry with is the people who compiled all that crap and made a religion of fear out of it.  And the master minds of the Catholic church, combined with the power of the Roman empire, made it the largest religion in the world.  "God" didn't do it.  Humans did it.  Humans who knew how to yield power over the ignorant masses of people.  And still do so by downplaying education and free thinking of the masses.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

12 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

BINGO!  Add to that, sly, sadistic, ruthless, and master manipulators, and several words along those lines.  God of the Bible is a concept made up by humans. Think of it like this.  Being angry at God is being angry at those qualities that all of us have the potential for, under the right conditions.  If you don't like me----obey me---etc, I will destroy you!  I will destroy humanity!  (the thinking of mass shooters today)

 

Who I am really angry with is the people who compiled all that crap and made a religion of fear out of it.  And the master minds of the Catholic church, combined with the power of the Roman empire, made it the largest religion in the world.  "God" didn't do it.  Humans did it.  Humans who knew how to yield power over the ignorant masses of people.  And still do so by downplaying eduation and free thinking of the masses.

And this is what is still wrong with the world today. Power, money, and corruption. You can't really make me believe all these geriatric politicians we have today are doing their job for the love of America. No, they just don't want to let go of that power they feel. But thats all better suited for an opinion club post than this thread. Sorry I mentioned politics. Just made me think about it. What they did millenia ago is still going on today in some form or another. 

 

DB

[◊ Weezer ◊]

17 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

And this is what is still wrong with the world today. Power, money, and corruption. You can't really make me believe all these geriatric politicians we have today are doing their job for the love of America. No, they just don't want to let go of that power they feel. But thats all better suited for an opinion club post than this thread. Sorry I mentioned politics. Just made me think about it. What they did millenia ago is still going on today in some form or another. 

 

DB

 

I agree with you.  It is all part of the ploy to maintain control and get even more wealthy.  The Bible is full of crap, but it does contain 2 truths.  Money (power) is the rooot of evil, and loving neighbor as self is the answer to most world problems

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 5/22/2023 at 5:10 AM, walterpthefirst said:

But because he's stubborn to the core he won't publicly yield from a position he's held in this forum for years and years.

Walter,

 

I think your probably right about that. He does seem to see a lot of what we say in our arguments. And even seems to take a fairly liberal stance on his beliefs. But it could also be fear. I really don't think the old testament God and the new testament God of Love and mercy are the same God. In the old testament dashing babies against stones and killing women and children were the actions of a God to be feared, not questioned. 

 

As the preacher said in the 12th book of Ecclesiastes.

 

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

Apparently our whole duty in life is to fear God and do what he says. Not necessarily what he does I guess. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

29 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I really don't think the old testament God and the new testament God of Love and mercy are the same God.

@walterpthefirst

 

Let me clarify this. I know that both testaments are based on the same God, as in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But the personalities given to God between the two testaments are very different. However, revelations really brings back that old testament God at the end for a fiery war against Satan and everyone who hasn't believed on Jesus. Sending plagues and Casting Nero and everyone else into the lake of fire to burn for eternity. 

 

DB