Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 2, 2023 10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Suffering is the product of NOT knowing, not understanding.....paraphrasing, "Forgive them Father, they do not know." Acceptance, followed by admittance and then FAITH until our knowledge base changes....which we know is finite. So you can continue to blow smoke or just grasp the mechanism of suffering and get better understanding others.....you know, communion and love your neighbor...and knowing the one who DOES know, Christ. So god's higher purpose for the ten-year-old sex slave is to know and understand. And god decided for her that she needs to know and understand. god decided for her that she should have communion with and love her neighbor. And god decided for her that the best way for her to know and understand was to be constantly raped and brutalized. But god doesn't violate free will? Bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Yes, there's a gap....yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And you nor any amount of understanding you think you possess will not fill that gap. Never claimed it would. But that doesn't automatically mean that there is a god who will fill it. Moreover, the existence of the gap demonstrates that god does not, cannot, or will not fill it. Because a gap that is filled ceases to be a gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: So god's higher purpose for the ten-year-old sex slave is to know and understand. And god decided for her that she needs to know and understand. god decided for her that she should have communion with and love her neighbor. And god decided for her that the best way for her to know and understand was to be constantly raped and brutalized. But god doesn't violate free will? Bullshit. It's his plan for ALL of us....then with adequate understanding, it's more likely that there won't BE the young girl....you recon.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 11 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Never claimed it would. But that doesn't automatically mean that there is a god who will fill it. Moreover, the existence of the gap demonstrates that god does not, cannot, or will not fill it. Because a gap that is filled ceases to be a gap. Certainly your call.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 2, 2023 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: It's his plan for ALL of us....then with adequate understanding, it's more likely that there won't BE the young girl....you recon.. Then, you admit that god does violate free will. So, why doesn't he violate the free will of the rapists and traffickers instead of the little girl? Why is it always the free will of the innocent that god violates? Never the Hitlers; always the Jews? This is your all-powerful god of love? Bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 2, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 2, 2023 19 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Never claimed it would. But that doesn't automatically mean that there is a god who will fill it. Moreover, the existence of the gap demonstrates that god does not, cannot, or will not fill it. Because a gap that is filled ceases to be a gap. 7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Certainly your call.... Not my call, Ed. Just simple logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Yes, there's a gap....yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And you nor any amount of understanding you think you possess will not fill that gap. The god of the gaps argument doesn’t specifically identify Jesus as god. Any religion can claim that about their particular god. So, Ed where’s the evidence for Jesus and only Jesus? The god of the gaps argument doesn’t tell us why we should have faith only in Jesus. Any religion can claim that we should have faith in only their particular god. Why have faith in Jesus and not Allah? The god of the gaps argument settles nothing, discovers nothing and informs us of nothing. Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: It's his plan for ALL of us....then with adequate understanding, it's more likely that there won't BE the young girl....you recon.. His? Who do you mean? The god of the gaps can be any god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Suffering is the product of NOT knowing, not understanding.....paraphrasing, "Forgive them Father, they do not know." Acceptance, followed by admittance and then FAITH until our knowledge base changes....which we know is finite. So you can continue to blow smoke or just grasp the mechanism of suffering and get better understanding others.....you know, communion and love your neighbor...and knowing the one who DOES know, Christ. Correction! Suffering is the product of Adam not understanding god’s warning. And we are all paying for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freshstart Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 On 6/2/2023 at 3:39 PM, Edgarcito said: On 6/2/2023 at 3:22 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said: So god's higher purpose for the ten-year-old sex slave is to know and understand. And god decided for her that she needs to know and understand. god decided for her that she should have communion with and love her neighbor. And god decided for her that the best way for her to know and understand was to be constantly raped and brutalized. But god doesn't violate free will? Bullshit. It's his plan for ALL of us....then with adequate understanding, it's more likely that there won't BE the young girl....you recon.. Once again, the imaginary friend of Christians, of course, needs a human to explain "his plan" (which, incidentally includes a shit-ton of human suffering). These same humans assume that "adequate understanding" - will be achieved through either (a) the audacious ability to know the mind of their supreme imaginary friend or (b) a magical revelation after death. In both cases, Christians blindly follow biblical doctrines that are cruel, illogical, and inhumane by most global standards. . . just because it "feels right" and because they cannot begin to fathom (or absolutely refuse to entertain) other explanations for the mysteries of life or the universe - outside of the bible. I, personally, actually do not exclude the possibility of a higher power/intelligence, call it whatever you want. But to assume that the bible gives an accurate depiction of this higher power (if it exists at all) is making a ridiculous leap. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 3, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 3, 2023 Indeed, @freshstart, "god" must fill the gaps. It has to be "god." It couldn't possibly be that the concept of an all-loving god is simply a direct contradiction to the very real problem of suffering; because that would leave a gap where faith once stood. And who would fill that gap, if "god" is imaginary? No, better to cling to the comforting bliss of cognitive dissonance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 4, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 4, 2023 @Edgarcito, please answer the question. Why is it always the free will of the innocent that gets violated, and never the free will of the evil? If god is going to violate free will anyway, why not do so in such a way as to alleviate suffering rather than causing it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 8, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 8, 2023 Unfortunately, it appears that Edgarcito is not going to answer the question for us, and so we cannot continue at this point. However, there are two further comments which merit addition to the thread. In order to give equal consideration to each, I will address them individually in separate posts following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2023 The first consideration is that the "gap" in which Ed has been so valiantly attempting to find god does not actually exist. What does exist is a very real (and obvious) problem of suffering and a concept of an all-loving god. It is easy to see that these two are at diametrical extremes from one another, not simply opposite from, but completely opposed to one another. The problem Ed, and others who share his faith, continue to unsuccessfully struggle with is in attempting to reconcile these two polar extremes. There aren't many possible avenues one might take toward reconciliation in this instance. The Free Will argument is one such; but, as we've seen, it falls apart when one considers the free will of the innocent and the necessity that god must violate free will if he has a plan and higher purpose. Deism, or a variant thereof, is another means of attempting reconciliation, as it posits a vaguely described higher power who is loosely in control of things, but takes no hand in the general minutae of daily life. For me, such a supposition runs afoul of the same problems with existence that its religious counterparts endure. A third option is to create a "gap" which seems to allow god to still be in control while neatly exculpating him from any of the responsibilities that being in control should bear. "We can't adequately explain..." represents a gap in knowledge, with the implication that god does know and can explain. "Someday their suffering will be rewarded..." represents a gap in time, which for us is finite and limited, but for god is infinite. The god of the gaps argument can take on any number of forms. However, as a means to reconciliation between an all-loving god and the very real problem of suffering, make-believe gaps simply do not, and cannot, do justice to either side of the argument. A god who can only appear in perceived gaps can hardly be omnipresent; and one who deliberately hides from suffering in those same gaps can hardly be omnibenevolent. I stated earlier in this thread that if one has to look for god in the gaps, that really should be a reality check. To take this one step further, if one has to invent gaps in which to look for god, then even more so should this give one pause in considering whether such a god exists, let alone being worthy of trust and worship. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2023 The second consideration is that the problem of suffering presents us with some very real "gaps" in which god simply does not exist. As examples, one might consider the gap torn into a mother's heart as she watches her son slowly wasting away from childhood leukemia. Or the gap left in a father's life when his daughter is kidnapped, raped, and trafficked. Or the gap ripped into that same little girl's soul during the final horrific weeks of her life. Where is "god" in these gaps? Does he only dwell in the imaginary, invented gaps that conveniently absolve him of guilt? "Ah, but god is in those gaps!" our eager apologist will claim. "Just ask the mother who gave her the strength to go on! Ask the father where he found the courage and hope to endure!" And, indeed, they might emphatically state that god was there, without admitting, or even realizing, that they put him there. There is a simple explanation from psychology that explains why some people can find god in trauma and tragedy, while others find drunken addictions and still others find schizophrenia. Our brains are hardwired with a "fight or flight" response. We generally think of this in terms of physical threats or dangers; but it holds equally true for emotional trauma and mental anguish. Faced with unimaginable suffering, our subconscious makes the same "fight or flight" decision to protect our consciousness that it would make when facing a physical threat. This is why, after an extreme tragedy, some people either quietly or violently slip into some form of insanity. This represents a "flight" from reality. Others present more of a "fight" response, and choose to channel their suffering into other manifestations. A few successfully find positive channels for their trauma. The rest find alcohol, heroin, or jesus. The concept of "god" is a convenient channel for one's trauma, obviously, given that most people live in a society that already has a concept of god. But what makes the god channel even more readily appealing is that "god" is very malleable. "god" can become anything a trauma victim needs him to be. For those left deeply wounded, "god" becomes the healer. For those left buried in guilt and shame, "god" becomes forgiveness. For those left angry and embittered from their ordeal, "god" becomes a means of mental vengeance in the form of divine retribution and the delight of knowing that the perpetrators will be tormented eternal. In a way, I suppose, this might be a form of dissociation, wherein an alter-ego, in this case "god," takes the place of one's suffering and trauma; but that would be speculation on my part in a field outside of my expertise. Ultimately, however, we are brought back to the same question: if god is loving enough to see one through one's suffering, why was he not loving enough to prevent it in the first place? And suddenly another gap appears where faith once stood... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 I have an idea. Why don't you inquire of science for your answers. Suffering, the gaps we don't understand, etc. Seems logical. Even then, I doubt you'd be happier, but you'd know. Alas, no you wouldn't.... some things will always remain unknowable in our subjugation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2023 Just now, Edgarcito said: I have an idea. Why don't you inquire of science for your answers. Suffering, the gaps we don't understand, etc. Seems logical. Even then, I doubt you'd be happier, but you'd know. Alas, no you wouldn't.... some things will always remain unknowable in our subjugation. You're still just pointing at a gap, Ed. Answer the question, please. Why is it always the free will of the innocent that gets violated, and never the free will of the evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said: You're still just pointing at a gap, Ed. Answer the question, please. Why is it always the free will of the innocent that gets violated, and never the free will of the evil? How about the most logical answer. That our system of morality has set it up that way. The reality is J, that both sides violate the innocence of the other whether they know it or not.....weak or strong, big or large, young or old, slow or intelligent. The Gap says this is the case. So essentially your premise is lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 The interesting thing is the Gap says that we CAN know it at this time...oooh, the irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2023 32 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: The reality is J, that both sides violate the innocence of the other whether they know it or not.....weak or strong, big or large, young or old, slow or intelligent. The Gap says this is the case. "Everybody else is doing it, so why can't god?" That is about the lamest argument you've ever presented here, Ed. I'm ashamed of you and so is jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2023 38 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: So essentially your premise is lacking. Word salad isn't going to cover up the sourness of the grapes, Ed. My premise is solid; and built on sound logic. If you wish to claim otherwise, you will have to either demonstrate a flaw in my logic or produce a superior argument of your own. Simply making a claim isn't going to pass muster here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2023 37 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: The interesting thing is the Gap says that we CAN know it at this time...oooh, the irony. Is this why the very first gap you attempted to point out was a gap in our knowledge? Or are you just backpeddling now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2023 Please answer the question, Ed. Why is it always the free will of the innocent that gets violated, and never the free will of the evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: "Everybody else is doing it, so why can't god?" That is about the lamest argument you've ever presented here, Ed. I'm ashamed of you and so is jesus. That's not what I'm saying at all idiot. You're just too stupid to understand. Let me try a remedial thought that it might spark your redneck brain. Absolute anything John is not ours at the moment. To say that it is through "logic" is asinine. If we aren't born into sin, the what are we born into, knowledge? Are we sinfilled of sinless when we are born. Does humanity possess absolute knowledge or morality? This is where all you logic fails, because your logic can't be based on what you don't know. Yet here we are again, you telling everyone how you have the answer to the gap....idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Please answer the question, Ed. Why is it always the free will of the innocent that gets violated, and never the free will of the evil? Did you read the first fucking sentence doucebag? You'd like to comment on that....."our system of morality...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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