A constructive discussion

[RankStranger]

I promised a constructive discussion, and I'm going to do that if I can.  I'm going to organize this for clarity, but I don't mean for this to come across as an indictment.  That's not why I'm here.

 

First I'd like to make a few apologies.  They're owed, in some cases for a long time.

 

1.  I'd like to apologize to Antlerman, although I think he's long gone.  Yes we disagree, but it was shitty of me to impugn his character over a disagreement.  I don't really know him at all, and really have nothing against the guy.  Sorry Antlerman.  I know you were just modding, and I'm sorry I turned my autistic rage in your direction.  I know it's a problem, and you weren't wrong about everything.

2.  I'd like to apologize to The Professor.  I said some unwarranted things about your friends, and you've responded appropriately.  I owe you some explanations.  

3.  I'd like to apologize to Dave, and really to the whole forum.  I've been an ass at times... at a lot of times.  And I've played my part in resulting problems.  I shouldn't have said that the administration of the Lion's Den was idiotic.  This is just a disagreement, and I know Dave has good reasons for a lot of the changes that have been made. 

4.  If I suck and you need me to know that, that's ok.  There's a pretty good chance that we'll agree... depending on the specifics.

5.  I'm sorta sorry I made such a big deal about the 'like' button.  It illustrates a point, but I could've been more... constructive.  I'm not really upset about the like button, but I sometimes I like to like things that I like.

6.  I'm prepared to make additional apologies if necessary.  But I'm done for now.

 

Some of you may wonder why I want to be here at all, now that I'm a Christian.  We can get to the details in time, but the fact is that I'm not a fundamentalist.  I can't un-know what I know, and what kind of Christian would I be if I didn't have at least some understanding of the history and content of the Bible?  ExChristians have taught me a lot about the bible.  I think this site does valuable work in un-tying the knots of fundamentalism.   Deconversion isn't something that I'm concerned with.  I may owe Edgar an explanation on that one, but I have reasons.

 

Ultimately I'm here for a discussion with people who are honest and willing to call bullshit where they see it.  I've rarely found that on any other forum- not like here.  Obviously I'm here to discuss religion, but I'd like to talk about other stuff too.  I like free-range discussion.  So personally, in this thread and this thread only, I would prefer that nobody stay on topic unless they feel like it.  I would prefer that people get off topic and derail the thread whenever they can.  But I understand that this is Dave's house, so enforce as you must.  I won't piss on the floor if I can help it.

 

I also understand that politics are not to be discussed 'outside'.  I understand the reasons for that, and I don't plan to violate that rule unless a mod tells me I can get away with it.  But I sure would like to read some ExChristians' opinions on recent Supreme Court decisions, if that could be done in a way that doesn't burn the forum down.  Some civilized debate would be awesome, but I understand that that's a challenge, and that political debates got way out of hand in the past.

 

I wonder how Burnedout is doing.  I would really enjoy arguing with him again.  Elsewhere if necessary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 hours ago, RankStranger said:

also understand that politics are not to be discussed 'outside'. 

Actually I'm pretty sure they can be discussed in the opine club. And aik has been able to post in there. You might request to be let into that forum like he was. We were discussing the war in Ukraine with him.

 

DB

[TABA]

Hi @RankStranger.  In all the activity yesterday, you may have overlooked where @Hierophant asked you about your reasons for returning to Christianity...

 

Is that something you'd like to elaborate on in this thread?  I think there would be plenty of interest in why you reconverted.

 

Burnedout is no longer a member.  There was some turmoil five or six years ago - before I became a mod - and once the dust settled he was no longer a member.

[RankStranger]

9 minutes ago, TABA said:

Hi @RankStranger.  In all the activity yesterday, you may have overlooked where @Hierophant asked you about your reasons for returning to Christianity...

 

Is that something you'd like to elaborate on in this thread?  I think there would be plenty of interest in why you reconverted.

 

Burnedout is no longer a member.  There was some turmoil five or six years ago - before I became a mod - and once the dust settled he was no longer a member.

 

We can get to that in time.  I have covered some of this in another thread.  I may have to go back and read it, it's been a few months:

 

 

For now I can tell you a few things about my return to Christianity.  I like lists:

 

1.  This is not a rational process.  I can't defend any of this by logic alone, and I don't feel the need to.  Faith and logic aren't remotely the same thing, IMO.  I think it's a mistake when fundamentalists claim that this Christianity, salvation, etc. is logical and you're just wrong if you don't believe it.  I don't see things that way.

2.  I am and have been "saved", if you're comfortable with that language.  I'm not likely to meet the standards of most fundamentalist theologies, and I don't care.  They're wrong in more ways than I can explain, but we all know that.

3.  The nature of belief has always been a big deal to me.  It's something I've turned over and over in my mind for decades, since I was a kid.  As a kid I had a bad habit of listening to sermons and taking them seriously.  I 'knew' as a kid that if I didn't believe, or if I didn't believe in the correct manner, or if I didn't understand some fine point of theology correctly and believe as such, I'd burn in hell.  That's not a concern now.  I've always maintained that belief is not a choice, and I still see it that way.

[RankStranger]

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Actually I'm pretty sure they can be discussed in the opine club. And aik has been able to post in there. You might request to be let into that forum like he was. We were discussing the war in Ukraine with him.

 

DB

 

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'd much prefer to have discussions like out in the open if possible though.  Discussion fosters discussion, as long as it's a healthy discussion and in good faith. 

 

I know that that's a challenge on a lot of topics, and I've not been up to that challenge in the past (having a healthy discussion in good faith, that is).  But the world we live in is has become officially insane, and I believe we all have A LOT to talk about. 

 

We live in a world where AI is already here and we have no idea what we'll end up doing with it.

 

Nuclear war is a very real possibility.  Russia is threatening Chernobyl times 10, and has explosives in place to make it happen with the push of a button.  WWIII has arguably already been going on for years.

 

We have a former president who could very well go to prison for the rest of his life, for any of a variety of accused crimes.  We have a current president who can barely speak coherently and walk up stairs, and his only real challenger is a semi-functional indicted geezer who could very well be in a cage by 2024. 

 

We've been though a world-wide pandemic that killed millions, very possibly from an engineered virus, and we've all been lied to about some basic facts of the situation... by pretty much every powerful institution in the country. 

 

We have American Royalty going on commercial space-adventures.  Surrounding our planet with vast networks of satellites that can provide internet everywhere more or less and with cameras that can see everything in the world more or less (except polar regions in the case of Starlink).  Royalty with money and power that the Caesar and Xerxes could never dream of.  Guys like Peter Theil are literally trying to engineer immortality.  Guys like Bill Gates, two former presidents and a huge swath of the money and power in the U.S. doing God knows what with Jeffrey Epstein, who did not commit suicide.  

 

We have a Supreme Court overturning decades-long precedents with every ruling.  We have an utterly broken and corrupt political structure.  We have ideological divisions and extremism on a scale not seen since the 1960's, or the 1940's depending on your take.

 

I could keep ranting, but you get the idea.  If this was ExC from 2005, there would be threads on all of this, and there would be hundreds of different opinions on it.  That's what I wish we could do.  I've rarely found any group as intelligent, well-rounded, and with the diversity of opinion that I've seen among ExChristians.  I really would like to know what all of you think on this strange world we find ourselves in.  I don't really know how to make that happen, but I'm making an attempt.

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

Hi @RankStranger.  In all the activity yesterday, you may have overlooked where @Hierophant asked you about your reasons for returning to Christianity...

 

Is that something you'd like to elaborate on in this thread?  I think there would be plenty of interest in why you reconverted.

 

Burnedout is no longer a member.  There was some turmoil five or six years ago - before I became a mod - and once the dust settled he was no longer a member.

 

Also if you or anybody want to quote from my thread in the ExChristian Life section, as part of a question, feel free.  Remember, I prefer to have my discussions derailed early and often.  I'd like us to stay off-topic where we can.

 

Yeah, I know BO is gone... it was inevitable.  I've read some of what went on, just browsing around the forum.  Despite our many disagreements, I like the guy and I hope he's doing well.

 

 

[RankStranger]

17 hours ago, Hierophant said:

@RankStranger Have you posted somewhere why you converted back to Christianity? I would be interested to hear your reasoning.

 

Moving to this thread, so as to stop derailing Walter's thread.

[Hierophant]

I saw your reply above, appreciate it. I may have seen that before and I had forgotten about it.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'd much prefer to have discussions like out in the open if possible though.  Discussion fosters discussion, as long as it's a healthy discussion and in good faith. 

 

I know that that's a challenge on a lot of topics, and I've not been up to that challenge in the past (having a healthy discussion in good faith, that is).  But the world we live in is has become officially insane, and I believe we all have A LOT to talk about. 

 

We live in a world where AI is already here and we have no idea what we'll end up doing with it.

 

Nuclear war is a very real possibility.  Russia is threatening Chernobyl times 10, and has explosives in place to make it happen with the push of a button.  WWIII has arguably already been going on for years.

 

We have a former president who could very well go to prison for the rest of his life, for any of a variety of accused crimes.  We have a current president who can barely speak coherently and walk up stairs, and his only real challenger is a semi-functional indicted geezer who could very well be in a cage by 2024. 

 

We've been though a world-wide pandemic that killed millions, very possibly from an engineered virus, and we've all been lied to about some basic facts of the situation... by pretty much every powerful institution in the country. 

 

We have American Royalty going on commercial space-adventures.  Surrounding our planet with vast networks of satellites that can provide internet everywhere more or less and with cameras that can see everything in the world more or less (except polar regions in the case of Starlink).  Royalty with money and power that the Caesar and Xerxes could never dream of.  Guys like Peter Theil are literally trying to engineer immortality.  Guys like Bill Gates, two former presidents and a huge swath of the money and power in the U.S. doing God knows what with Jeffrey Epstein, who did not commit suicide.  

 

We have a Supreme Court overturning decades-long precedents with every ruling.  We have an utterly broken and corrupt political structure.  We have ideological divisions and extremism on a scale not seen since the 1960's, or the 1940's depending on your take.

 

I could keep ranting, but you get the idea.  If this was ExC from 2005, there would be threads on all of this, and there would be hundreds of different opinions on it.  That's what I wish we could do.  I've rarely found any group as intelligent, well-rounded, and with the diversity of opinion that I've seen among ExChristians.  I really would like to know what all of you think on this strange world we find ourselves in.  I don't really know how to make that happen, but I'm making an attempt.

 

I like you rank. You think like me lmao I caught the last days of the ToT forum but the opine club is supposed to be the replacement for that forum I think. RNP brought it back a year or two ago when we went off topic on a few threads in the other forums. Its easy for me to do. By the time I started posting in ToT when I first came here it was mostly Left wing liberal minded people that pretty much ganged up on ya if they didn't agree with you. And being a strong support of 2nd amendment rights..... mmmm yeah. It didn't go well. Those discussions can turn into a heated argument quick. It started making the website look bad. Less of a refuge and more of a mob of turd sandwiches and deuche bags on both sides.

 

So I can agree with keeping that out of the public eye. Just because I know what happened when ToT started going downhill. But you make a good point about the differences of opinion n such. I personally would love to talk about all of the things you mentioned. Maybe we could start talking about it in the designated forum and if it remains peaceful maybe the mods will eventually let it out in the open again. 

 

I think if Trump is in jail next year that DeSantis has a good shot at being the next president. And I wish Trump would just not run. I'm tired of the constant turmoil he causes. But I also have to wonder why? Why have they been so intent on getting him kicked out? Hell half of congress have done what he has done or worse. The theory that its because he can't be paid off really makes sense. 

 

Another subject I would throw in there that is important, is the overall geriatric congress we have now. Senator Feinstein has to have a team of aids just to keep her coherent about what is going on. I'm sorry but that is just irresponsible not to step down when your health has become that bad. And thats not even being biased. I'm sure another democrat will replace her. There is no reason for her not to retire. I'm all for age limits. 

 

DB

[TABA]

@RankStranger, I am also interested in the political topics you've mentioned, but I have very little confidence they can be discussed in a civilized manner, even in the Opine Club.  And the more people involved, the worse it gets.

 

The sad fact is that the ability of most people to have civil disagreements about politics and social issues has really deteriorated in the past couple of decades.  There are many culprits:  talk radio, cable news, social media, and not least the eagerness of politicians to whip up anger against the other side for their own ends.  The two-party system has become toxic, and sadly the best choice it can provide for voters is between the two geriatric options you mentioned above.

 

Just about every time I chimed in on a political discussion here, I quickly came to regret it.  I am convinced the leadership were right to restrict such discussions.  The alternative was to allow Ex-Christians to turn on each other over issues that were peripheral to the purposes of this community.  

 

Yes, I'm sure there were better off-topic discussions back in the early days of Ex-C.  That change has happened, not because of poor moderation, but because the whole nature of debate in our society has changed dramatically during those years.

 

I still think that when it comes to the central purpose of this community, it still does a very good job.  There is simply less interest in long-form discussion these days, sadly.  Why use nuance and shading when you can be snarky in 140 characters or less, and when the more you trash your adversaries, the more Likes and Retweets you get?  Active membership here has dwindled for sure, but I prefer quality over quantity, if I have to choose.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

It seems to me that the world didn't really start plunging into chaos until right after Hostess announced they would no longer be manufacturing Twinkies.  Not saying there is definite causation there; but the correlation certainly warrants further consideration. 

[RankStranger]

I want to make it clear that I'm not asking for any forum changes, and I'm definitely not demanding anything.  This is only a discussion.  

 

Politics are as toxic these days as I've ever seen, and there's no end to in sight.  I don't know if the kind of discussion I want is even possible here, particularly out in the open.  It's just that the kind of discussion that I would like to see, I think it could only occur in the open.  I've tried the Opine club, and there wasn't much response or apparent interest.  Probably not enough traffic among other things to really get a good discussion going.

 

I remember the constant arguing and insults in the TOT forum, and contributed more than my share to that.  That needed to be fixed, and I was surprised at how long it continued even after I left.  From my perspective, things really started to change for the worse sometime around 2011.  I have some thoughts about why it started at that time, but that would get into details that would require some fairly serious political discussion, and I don't think that would be a good idea in this thread for now.  Not unless/until a mod suggests otherwise. 

 

I will say though, that this site's inability to deal constructively with political discussions isn't unique at all.  To my eye, lots of Atheist/FreeThinker communities began a slow and fraught disintegration around that time, over some fairly specific political issues.  It led me to question why 'my scene' at that time (the New Atheist Movement, some have called it) was so fragile in the face of some fairly straightforward political disagreements.  I would love to discuss the details, but that would get into unwise territory for now.

 

I'm not here to promote other forums, and I don't have a particular one in mind.  But one possibility is that those folks who are interested in political discussions might meet elsewhere, to keep the feces-throwing off this site.  Just an idea, and a far from ideal one.

 

All this is of course a bit selfish of me.  Politics aren't the core mission here, and as a Christian I happen to disagree with parts of the core mission.  But leading people out of fundamentalism is good and important work IMO, and this site does a great job of that.  To me that's what a lot of the religious discussion here comes down to- critiques of fundamentalism.

 

 

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I like you rank. You think like me lmao I caught the last days of the ToT forum but the opine club is supposed to be the replacement for that forum I think. RNP brought it back a year or two ago when we went off topic on a few threads in the other forums. Its easy for me to do. By the time I started posting in ToT when I first came here it was mostly Left wing liberal minded people that pretty much ganged up on ya if they didn't agree with you. And being a strong support of 2nd amendment rights..... mmmm yeah. It didn't go well. Those discussions can turn into a heated argument quick. It started making the website look bad. Less of a refuge and more of a mob of turd sandwiches and deuche bags on both sides.

 

So I can agree with keeping that out of the public eye. Just because I know what happened when ToT started going downhill. But you make a good point about the differences of opinion n such. I personally would love to talk about all of the things you mentioned. Maybe we could start talking about it in the designated forum and if it remains peaceful maybe the mods will eventually let it out in the open again. 

 

I think if Trump is in jail next year that DeSantis has a good shot at being the next president. And I wish Trump would just not run. I'm tired of the constant turmoil he causes. But I also have to wonder why? Why have they been so intent on getting him kicked out? Hell half of congress have done what he has done or worse. The theory that its because he can't be paid of really makes sense. 

 

Another subject I would throw in there that is important, is the overall geriatric congress we have now. Senator Feinstein has to have a team of aids just to keep her coherent about what is going on. I'm sorry but that is just irresponsible not to step down when your health has become that bad. And thats not even being biased. I'm sure another democrat will replace her. There is no reason for her not to retire. I'm all for age limits. 

 

DB

 

It's funny how the political themes here changed so much, and so quickly.  Prior to 2011 there was plenty of feces-throwing, but not by the same people, not at all on the same issues, and without the same shitty results as the post-2011 TOT discussions.  And yes, TOT was making the website look bad.

 

I don't disagree in principle with keeping such discussions hidden.  I just wish that wasn't the case.  These discussions simply aren't happening much at all, with them being hidden.

 

And yeah, I'd love to discuss those topics you've mentioned.  But for now all I can do is discuss discussing them.

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

And yeah, I'd love to discuss those topics you've mentioned.  But for now all I can do is discuss discussing them.

Or we can discuss them in the opine club. 

[RankStranger]

3 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Or we can discuss them in the opine club. 

 

Well, you can.  I can't 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

16 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

Well, you can.  I can't 

@TheRedneckProfessor can he be added to the opine club?

[Edgarcito]

Yes, and I've got a lot to say about politics as well...lol.  Submit my application if you would.  Thx.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

14 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes, and I've got a lot to say about politics as well...lol.  Submit my application if you would.  Thx.

 

Its up to the mods n Dave but it'd be nice to get some people talking in there. Its a pretty dead forum right now. 

[TABA]

10 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Its up to the mods n Dave but it'd be nice to get some people talking in there. Its a pretty dead forum right now. 

 

In the past I have seen ex-christians spend time arguing over peripheral issues in the Opine Club and its predecessors, while neglecting supporting people leaving christianity.  Our christian members presumably have no problem with apostates getting side-tracked from counter-apologetics, but the rest of us need to keep our priorities on track.  I'm not saying we can't do both, but peripheral topics can be a distraction sometimes.  

[Edgarcito]

33 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes, and I've got a lot to say about politics as well...lol.  Submit my application if you would.  Thx.

 

I’m teasing… I’m a right wing zealot.  Offensive even.  Throw my application away… you’ll be glad you did.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

Well, you can.  I can't 

 

36 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes, and I've got a lot to say about politics as well...lol.  Submit my application if you would.  Thx.

 

Invitations have been sent to you both.  Ignore them at your own peril. 

[RankStranger]

I do have one request, not really related to anything discussed in this thread so far... but relevant to the discussion that led up to this thread:  Does Loren's formerly pinned thread still exist somewhere in the ether?  The one where he requested that ExChristians be kind to Christians, specifically in the Lion's Den?  I think you'd get more and better discussion in the Lion's Den that way.  But I would absolutely not want that request to be enforced via ban-hammer.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with berating shitty Christians per se.  But when that's the norm, and there's really nothing else going in in the forum... that doesn't make the site look good.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@RankStranger

 

It says you've been in the forum since last year. 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

19 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I do have one request, not really related to anything discussed in this thread so far... but relevant to the discussion that led up to this thread:  Does Loren's formerly pinned thread still exist somewhere in the ether?  The one where he requested that ExChristians be kind to Christians, specifically in the Lion's Den?  I think you'd get more and better discussion in the Lion's Den that way.  But I would absolutely not want that request to be enforced via ban-hammer.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with berating shitty Christians per se.  But when that's the norm, and there's really nothing else going in in the forum... that doesn't make the site look good.  

Here's a link to every topic posted by Loren.  Figure out which one you're referring to and send me the link to that thread.  I'll figure it out from there.

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/profile/35-loren/content/?type=forums_topic&change_section=1

[RankStranger]

That doesn't go back nearly far enough, but thanks for checking.