A constructive discussion

[RankStranger]

On 7/4/2023 at 3:35 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You know what, @RankStranger?  Yes.  A lot of people left over the years.  You were one of them.  But a lot of other people--good people--stayed here.  A lot of good people did their best to keep this website going.  Because a lot of us remember what deconversion was like; and we wanted to make sure there was a place for others to come and get the help and support they needed.

 

Just who the hell do you think you are that you're going to come in here and piss all over the hard work and effort those people have put into building this community, which you abandoned all those years ago?  Do you think you're special for coming back now?  Do you think you're somehow entitled to something because you deconverted and then reconverted?  

 

You could have stayed here like the rest of us did.  You could have helped build and shape this community.  But you didn't.  So you don't get to bitch now that things aren't to your liking.  When a lot of other people made the commitment to stay with this project through thick and thin.  And I won't tolerate you demeaning or denigrating what they have achieved here.

 

Yes.  There are rules.  Those rules do not come from the moderators.  They come directly from the guy who owns this website and keeps it going largely from his own personal finances.  Every single one of the moderation team, and all of the regular members, are volunteers here; because we believe in the work this website does.  Who are you but some johnny-come-back-lately, who had better things to do over the past several years, than to reach out to the hurting and traumatized victims of the christian religion?

 

One of the rules of this website is that anybody who doesn't like it here can start their own website and run it however they want.  Again, that rule doesn't come from me; it comes directly from the top.  So you have your options. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to stay now that you're back.  I have no intention or interest in banning you.  But we are done with your little pity party here.   If you would like to open a thread of your own to get more of your petty grievances off your chest, you're welcome to do so.  But this is Walt and Edgarcito's thread; and you are not going to take up any more of it with your bitching.  If you'd like to start your own thread and try to debate us according to your own arbitrary set of rules, have at it, by all means.  But not this thread.  This is Walt and Edgarcito's thread; and you will respect that. 

 

I will not discuss this issue with you publicly any further.  You are free to message me privately; or take your complaints directly to Dave.  Any more of this bullshit plastered all over somebody else's thread, though, will be promptly deleted.  Because this isn't the place for it.  You want to create a place for it?  Start your own thread.  

 

Is there an understanding between us, now, boy?

 

 

Earlier today I was thinking about this post, and I deserved the bolded part in particular.  But there are some good questions here... some that I might like to know.  

 

I was just one of many who have left over the years, for all sorts of reasons.  Really I think that decline over the past several years isn't unique to this site at all.  I think it's part of a broader trend where the New Atheist cultural movement (if you can call it that) just ain't what it used to be.  This is just an impression I get from other Atheism and adjacent sites I've been around over the years- I don't have stats to back it up.  But I don't hear a whole lot out of Dawkins these days.  Sam Harris still snipes via podcast, safely behind a paywall and surrounded by disciples.  But there's really nothing transgressive about being an Atheist online anymore, or in large swaths of America.  Sure it can a problem around the small-towners... but what isn't? 

 

It's a strange fact looking back, but it's a fact none the less.  I was praying even before I left this site- with not a single doubt about my status as an atheist.  I can make the case that I've been blindly and stupidly looking for God for a lot longer than that- but I'll spare you my Testimony for now.

 

You asked me who the fuck I think I am (in relation to this site?), and it's a fair question.  I'm not sure exactly, especially considering that my beliefs have changed.  I'm just a guy with a history of being a jackass here, and who enjoyed a lot of great arguments here over the years.  I learned a lot of things here that I'd never heard of- religious and otherwise.  I talked with a lot of great people here, even met one in person.  I'm not here to win you all back to Jesus, but I do have some different opinions on things than I used to.  I'm not entitled to anything here, regardless of what I believe, except to type in this little box until a ban-hammer strikes 

 

But I don't think there will be any need for that. Ya'll are good people, even if you do claim otherwise. 

 

That last part was a wholesome and Godly joke- don't crucify me 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Hey, @RankStranger, I'm curious how Marfark feels about your reconversion to christianity.  Does he support you, or does he think you're a dumbass?

[Edgarcito]

On 7/12/2023 at 8:23 PM, RankStranger said:

 

 

Earlier today I was thinking about this post, and I deserved the bolded part in particular.  But there are some good questions here... some that I might like to know.  

 

I was just one of many who have left over the years, for all sorts of reasons.  Really I think that decline over the past several years isn't unique to this site at all.  I think it's part of a broader trend where the New Atheist cultural movement (if you can call it that) just ain't what it used to be.  This is just an impression I get from other Atheism and adjacent sites I've been around over the years- I don't have stats to back it up.  But I don't hear a whole lot out of Dawkins these days.  Sam Harris still snipes via podcast, safely behind a paywall and surrounded by disciples.  But there's really nothing transgressive about being an Atheist online anymore, or in large swaths of America.  Sure it can a problem around the small-towners... but what isn't? 

 

It's a strange fact looking back, but it's a fact none the less.  I was praying even before I left this site- with not a single doubt about my status as an atheist.  I can make the case that I've been blindly and stupidly looking for God for a lot longer than that- but I'll spare you my Testimony for now.

 

You asked me who the fuck I think I am (in relation to this site?), and it's a fair question.  I'm not sure exactly, especially considering that my beliefs have changed.  I'm just a guy with a history of being a jackass here, and who enjoyed a lot of great arguments here over the years.  I learned a lot of things here that I'd never heard of- religious and otherwise.  I talked with a lot of great people here, even met one in person.  I'm not here to win you all back to Jesus, but I do have some different opinions on things than I used to.  I'm not entitled to anything here, regardless of what I believe, except to type in this little box until a ban-hammer strikes 

 

But I don't think there will be any need for that. Ya'll are good people, even if you do claim otherwise. 

 

That last part was a wholesome and Godly joke- don't crucify me 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, it was novel in the early 2000's to dissent against Christianity.....attracted a much larger crowd.

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Hey, @RankStranger, I'm curious how Marfark feels about your reconversion to christianity.  Does he support you, or does he think you're a dumbass?

 

That's a good question, and I'm a little surprised you remember him as he didn't post here for long if I remember correctly.  Just to add a bit of context (which probably won't be a surprise), Marfark is my brother.

 

Initially he didn't seem too happy about it, and expressed that he didn't believe me.  That would've been exactly my reaction were our roles reversed, so I was neither offended nor surprised.  Not sure if any of that has changed, as I don't bring up the subject of personal belief with him.  He's of course welcome to bring it up, but most of the time he'd rather not talk about such silliness.  The closest I get to the subject in conversation is to occasionally comment on the goings-on of people we know in our old church, or things I've observed in other churches I've tried out (I'm still shopping and probably will be for some time).  But it hasn't been a big problem overall- we still talk regularly and usually the subject of Christianity doesn't come up at all.  Really the main thing he wants out of the Christians in his life is for them to not nag him about it... and I can do that.

 

My non-believing wife, other non-believing family, non-believing friends have all been pretty surprised and a little confused, and understandably so.  But so far this hasn't really caused any significant problems with anybody.  I'm sure it would be a problem if I started the standard Evangelical nagging, but I have zero interest in that.  My wife and I have had long and in depth conversations about this, and she understands where I'm coming from even if she doesn't agree.  I've made it clear that I am in no way trying to push Christianity onto her, and that I want her to do and believe what is right for her.  I'm not in the business of selling people some Jesus.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I agree, it was novel in the early 2000's to dissent against Christianity.....attracted a much larger crowd.

I was dissenting against christianity before it was cool.

 

 

[RankStranger]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I was dissenting against christianity before it was cool.

 

 

 

I like this post

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

That's a good question, and I'm a little surprised you remember him as he didn't post here for long if I remember correctly.  Just to add a bit of context (which probably won't be a surprise), Marfark is my brother.

I suppose the reason ot is of interest to me is that I also have a brother.  I haven't spoken to him in nearly 15 years and only get the occasional bit of information about him from my mother.  Such information then needs to be studiously analyzed, as mom tends to have a much more casual relationship with the truth than I do.  As far as I know, he's still holding some sort of religious belief; but, he has also gone through periods of trial and tribulation where his faith is concerned.

[RankStranger]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I suppose the reason ot is of interest to me is that I also have a brother.  I haven't spoken to him in nearly 15 years and only get the occasional bit of information about him from my mother.  Such information then needs to be studiously analyzed, as mom tends to have a much more casual relationship with the truth than I do.  As far as I know, he's still holding some sort of religious belief; but, he has also gone through periods of trial and tribulation where his faith is concerned.

 

It's sad, but this sort of thing is so common as to be almost the norm IMO.  In my family we have at least four consecutive generations of parental estrangement to varying degrees (ranging from emotional & physical distance to zero contact).  All or nearly all tangled up in Christianity.

 

 

[RankStranger]

24 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I agree, it was novel in the early 2000's to dissent against Christianity.....attracted a much larger crowd.

 

Yeah, these days nobody even notices if they come across and Atheist on the internet.  It's no longer novel... it's kindof the norm.

 

I don't think the worn-off novelty is the only reason for the decline of the New Atheist movement though.  I think there are inherent weaknesses in the world view, ideology, culture, etc. of the New Atheist movement that led to its decline.  None of which are unique to this particular community.  To my eye (and I have no numbers whatsoever to back this up), the movement began to decline in the early/mid 2010's, and has never really recovered. 

 

Not saying that the number of non-believers has decreased.  Just saying that the popularity and community of the movement ain't what it used to be.  Not by a long shot.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

It's sad, but this sort of thing is so common as to be almost the norm IMO.  In my family we have at least four consecutive generations of parental estrangement to varying degrees (ranging from emotional & physical distance to zero contact).  All or nearly all tangled up in Christianity.

 

 

Not to be misunderstood, religious belief isn't the reason he and I don't talk.  It's that he's an even bigger asshole than I am.  No comments from you, @Edgarcito. 

[RankStranger]

Fair enough.  Assholery need not be a barrier in and of itself though.  My brothers and I are all assholes, just not to each other.

[TABA]

7 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I don't think the worn-off novelty is the only reason for the decline of the New Atheist movement though.  I think there are inherent weaknesses in the world view, ideology, culture, etc. of the New Atheist movement that led to its decline.  None of which are unique to this particular community.  To my eye (and I have no numbers whatsoever to back this up), the movement began to decline in the early/mid 2010's, and has never really recovered. 

 

Not saying that the number of non-believers has decreased.  Just saying that the popularity and community of the movement ain't what it used to be.  Not by a long shot.

 

At the end of the day, a group that is defined solely by an opinion on one subject is not going to have much cohesion, especially as that opinion starts to become less socially unacceptable.  One thing I have seen in the past decade is a revival of interest in philosophies that are compatible with atheism:  modern versions of Stoicism, Epicureanism, secular Buddhism, Objectivism.  The Greek / Roman philosophies fell by the wayside with the rise of Christianity, and I enjoy seeing their revival in these times of declining religiosity.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

17 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

My brothers and I are all assholes, just not to each other.

That is the distinguishing characteristic.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Also, atheism, as we all well know, is a religion; and religion in general is in decline. 

[RankStranger]

8 minutes ago, TABA said:

 

At the end of the day, a group that is defined solely by an opinion on one subject is not going to have much cohesion, especially as that opinion starts to become less socially unacceptable.  One thing I have seen in the past decade is a revival of interest in philosophies that are compatible with atheism:  modern versions of Stoicism, Epicureanism, secular Buddhism, Objectivism.  The Greek / Roman philosophies fell by the wayside with the rise of Christianity, and I enjoy seeing their revival in these times of declining religiosity.  

 

With the exception of 'objectivism' (shallow self-serving trash IMO), I think these -isms are a good thing.  When people walk away from Christianity, there really is no direct replacement available in the secular world.  Not just in terms of community (which is a huge problem in itself), but there never was much of a cohesive intellectual/philosophical body of work behind the New Atheist movement.  Like you said, it's just an opinion on a topic, but there's not necessarily any underlying, unifying world view among Atheists.  Unlike Christians who (whatever you think of the content) have thousands of years of culture, history, and writings from all over the world to back their world view.

 

IMO without a similar world view, people aren't even speaking the same language in a sense.  If two people strongly subscribe to distinctly opposed -isms, they routinely can't agree on even the basic meanings of certain words, phrases, and concepts.  That makes a mutually understood conversation near impossible.

[Edgarcito]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Not to be misunderstood, religious belief isn't the reason he and I don't talk.  It's that he's an even bigger asshole than I am.  No comments from you, @Edgarcito. 

Reminds me of everyone who has died over the years on this forum....Kevin, Mark, and there was one Christian visitor that passed....I don't remember his moniker.  Long story short, the contests we've endured allows for more understanding.  I'd rather die being an asshole that understood than sitting in the organized pew society.  "Yeah, he was a jackass, but we knew why and am glad he's gone....I mean, he was a good cat".....lol.

 

With that, I confess I haven't spoken to one of my sisters in roughly three years.  She swallowed the liberal, me too, patriarchy hating, strong woman, new age Kool Aid.  All those combined make for a mix that even my best intentions can't seem to overcome.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

there was one Christian visitor that passed....I don't remember his moniker

Ironhorse, often referred to as Tin Pony, also known as Brass Mule.  He was one of the good ones.

[Edgarcito]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Ironhorse, often referred to as Tin Pony, also known as Brass Mule.  He was one of the good ones.

Yes.....thank you.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

28 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Reminds me of everyone who has died over the years on this forum....Kevin, Mark, and there was one Christian visitor that passed.

Also Larry (par4Dcourse).

[Marfark]

On 7/21/2023 at 4:18 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Hey, @RankStranger, I'm curious how Marfark feels about your reconversion to christianity.  Does he support you, or does he think you're a dumbass?

 

I, too, am shocked that anyone remembers me.  It looks like I was last here in 2014.

 

RS mentioned this thread to me a few days ago, and I decided to look it up.  I had forgotten my username.  I was prompted to reset my password when I tried to sign up using the same email I used for Marfark.  Jesus Buttfucking Christ this site requires one hell of a password.  Way more secure than what my bank requires.

 

I'm not sure that "not too happy about it" is the right way to put it regarding my reaction to RS's "getting saved".  I think either he is semi-seriously kicking around the idea out of boredom, or he has managed to kill a few critical brain cells.  Either way, it's a little annoying.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

38 minutes ago, Marfark said:

I'm not sure that "not too happy about it" is the right way to put it regarding my reaction to RS's "getting saved"

Welcome back Marfark. He isn't what I would consider a fundy. Its more of a Christian Buddhism. Or at least thats how I see it. 

 

DB

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Welcome back Marfark. He isn't what I would consider a fundy. Its more of a Christian Buddhism. Or at least thats how I see it. 

 

 Ditto!  Not what I would call an authentic Christian.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, Marfark said:

 

I, too, am shocked that anyone remembers me.  It looks like I was last here in 2014.

 

RS mentioned this thread to me a few days ago, and I decided to look it up.  I had forgotten my username.  I was prompted to reset my password when I tried to sign up using the same email I used for Marfark.  Jesus Buttfucking Christ this site requires one hell of a password.  Way more secure than what my bank requires.

 

I'm not sure that "not too happy about it" is the right way to put it regarding my reaction to RS's "getting saved".  I think either he is semi-seriously kicking around the idea out of boredom, or he has managed to kill a few critical brain cells.  Either way, it's a little annoying.

Good to see you again, @Marfark.

[RankStranger]

9 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Welcome back Marfark. He isn't what I would consider a fundy. Its more of a Christian Buddhism. Or at least thats how I see it. 

 

DB

 

If I were going to tack on another -ism, it would have to Taoism.  Buddhism is interesting and all, but hasn't made the same impact on me.  Problem is that I'm not a Taoist.  I just like their book and their approach to life.

 

When I pray to God, I know Who I have in mind.

 

 

7 hours ago, Weezer said:

 Ditto!  Not what I would call an authentic Christian.

 

It's been interesting to watch this play out.  I've yet to have a single Christian question my authenticity.  But you're not the first atheist/exchristian to do so.

 

In general I'm not a fan of ideological rigidity (though I've often been guilty of it), nor people telling me what I should or shouldn't believe.  That's a big part of what drove me away from Christianity in the first place.  

 

These days though, I see no shortage of rigid thinking and belief demands in secular culture in general.  And even more so among (what remains of) the New Atheist movement.  This is a small part of what I mean when I say that ya'll are for the most part Good Christians.  In many cases better Christians than the ones in church.

[RankStranger]

I was listening to Richard Dawkins yesterday.

 

 

 

He's still all there, but he's lost a bit of his edge... having learned some hard lessons from GamerGate as did many New Atheists.

 

I'm only half way through this, but I'll be finishing it this week.  If anybody here has listened to the interview and has thoughts on it, I'd be interested.