The Problem of Sin

[crazy-tiger]

Hi,

I remember Jesus said before to hinder not the children to come to me for such is the kingdom of heaven.

I personally consider that to be a clue to show us that children are indeed innocent till they willingly do evil with full knowledge and conscience.

I heard somone say before in another forum "God cannot call a retard for double dribble".

Although I personally dont like to focus on the fact that we screwed up, but on the fact that we can be made right with God. And that is what I think Christianity is all about. Realizing that we screwed up, but God is loving that he wants us to be forgiven IF we are willing to turn away from our sins and trust in the Saviour.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi... since God is supposed to be perfect, he created us so we would screw up.

 

We would have to be imperfect to screw up, and a perfect being cannot make something imperfect unless deliberately.

 

Ergo, God wanted us to screw up...

 

 

 

So, Christianity is about realizing the God wanted us to screw up AND that he will forgive us screwing up if we worship him.

 

If you think that's ok, then you need help.

[pug]

Do you people really believe that a deity would truly want his/her followers to hate themselves?  What kind of divine being would want people to do that?  Not one worth worshipping, in my book.  That kind of thinking only leads to depression and suicide.  Get some help from a psychologist if you are truly thinking that way or at least read some self-help books.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So far, not one pastor has told me God wants us to hate ourselves. All the time is Jesus loves us. So much love I'm gonna burst. Ummm... who has been giving you the false brainwashing?

[Asimov]

The problem with Sin is that God made it feel so good to do it.

[pug]

Hi... since God is supposed to be perfect, he created us so we would screw up.

 

We would have to be imperfect to screw up, and a perfect being cannot make something imperfect unless deliberately.

 

Ergo, God wanted us to screw up...

So, Christianity is about realizing the God wanted us to screw up AND that he will forgive us screwing up if we worship him.

 

If you think that's ok, then you need help.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey, FWIW I heard a slightly weirder story:

 

God created a perfect Adam. And gave him the power of choice. So one day God wanted to test His perfect creation.

 

He commanded Adam not to eat the fruit from His tree. It is His, eat any fruit you wish in the garden but NOT His fruit tree then you'll be sinless and live eternally.

 

So choose... my perfect creation empowered with an extra feature to choose! Life (if you don't eat my fruit) or death (if you do).

 

Bummer. Adam stole and ate from God's tree.

 

Well, after a minute (a minute = God's thousand years, give or take a few hundred) God must have had second thoughts. So He send Jesus Christ down to us to inform us that ok, here I am to die for all your sins as long as you love, (mind and soul and heart) His Father. And I'll even send you the Holy Spirit to minister to you when you have been baptised in the Holy Spirit.

 

Oh. Alright I'll (me, the foolish troll) buy that.

 

So I choose His promised eternal life too.

 

And eversince then I have been brainwashed to believe in Jesus Christ.

[Asimov]

Hey, FWIW I heard a slightly weirder story:

 

 

Um...you forgot one thing....If Adam was perfect and given the power of choice, he wouldn't have chosen improperly....oops, you're fucked.

[pug]

Um...you forgot one thing....If Adam was perfect and given the power of choice, he wouldn't have chosen improperly....oops, you're fucked.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He sure was. But there was this talking snake and nagging girl pal.

 

Ummm... but perfection, choice, perfection, choice, perfection, choice, perfection, choice, perfection, choice, ahhh what the hoo, screw perfection, I'm powerful and I'm no wimp... and I don't wish to blame no girl or serpent (not politically correct, yeah even in those first days) but it's so tempting. God's fruit you know. OK, yum, yum, just once. Ooooh why not? What's death anyway? Die once only whaaaaat. What the hell...

 

*Chomp*

 

Uh oh..

[Asimov]

He sure was. But there was this talking snake and nagging girl pal.

 

Doesn't matter, he was CREATED perfect. If he was created perfect, then he wouldn't have made the wrong choice. There is absolutely no way you can back out of that. Doesn't matter if you add in a hundred different variables from how hungry Adam was to how annoying Eve was.

[pug]

QUOTE(orthodox christian @ May 20 2005, 03:31 PM)

 

It's a natural defect which indeed needs a cure. That cure is Baptism which Christ brought.

Hey, are you sure? Natural defect? Needs cure?

 

Baptism regenerates the nature and makes it pure and God-like again, and your will becomes stronger. Because before baptism you could wish good, but could do only primitive kind of good, you could not resist sin and free yourself from it.

So easy? What kind of Christianity is that? May I join... err maybe not.

 

After Baptism, you get the Holy Spirit and then you have control over yourself and can get rid of sin, in other words, become sinless (and many did). But only if you choose to do that, because even after Baptism you can fall and live a pretty wicked life.

Yikes? So simple? Oi!!! You are selling Jesus very cheaply. Fire sale?

 

Are you guaranteed the Holy Spirit after baptism (by immersion in water, or just baptised in the HS?)??? Do you have to speak in tongues as proof?

[Fweethawt]

Pug,

 

Take a look at the time-stamp on the post that you just responded to.

 

Right here ---- > orthodox christian @ May 20 2005, 03:31 PM

 

I highly doubt orthodox christian will be around to see your response. I don't think he/she/it has been around for a while.

[SkepticOfBible]

Hey, FWIW I heard a slightly weirder story:

 

God created a perfect Adam. And gave him the power of choice. So one day God wanted to test His perfect creation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So why would you want to test a perfect creation? You only test something in case you don't how it will behave. But god already knows the future doesn't he.

 

He commanded Adam not to eat the fruit from His tree. It is His, eat any fruit you wish in the garden but NOT His fruit tree then you'll be sinless and live eternally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is no talk about Sin in any of those verses. It only talks about death.

 

Gen 15-17

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

 

 

So choose... my perfect creation empowered with an extra feature to choose! Life (if you don't eat my fruit) or death (if you do).

 

Bummer. Adam stole and ate from God's tree.

 

Hence a imperfect decision made a by perfect being

 

Well, after a minute (a minute = God's thousand years, give or take a few hundred) God must have had second thoughts. So He send Jesus Christ down to us to inform us that ok, here I am to die for all your sins as long as you love, (mind and soul and heart) His Father. And I'll even send you the Holy Spirit to minister to you when you have been baptised in the Holy Spirit.

 

The OT contradict you on all accounts

 

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

 

Malachi 3:6

I the LORD do not change.

 

2 Kings 14:6

Yet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."

 

Oh. Alright I'll (me, the foolish troll) buy that.

 

So I choose His promised eternal life too.

 

And eversince then I have been brainwashed to believe in Jesus Christ.

 

 

And thereby disobeying the God of the OT

 

Isa 43:11

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

Hosea 13:4

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

 

Isa 45:21-22

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 

Where is Jesus mentioned here?

God is not a trinity in the OT? It is singular being. Better start following the laws if you want to save your soul.

[pug]

Doesn't matter, he was CREATED perfect.  If he was created perfect, then he wouldn't have made the wrong choice.  There is absolutely no way you can back out of that.  Doesn't matter if you add in a hundred different variables from how hungry Adam was to how annoying Eve was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's why it's so weird.

 

How in the world could a perfectly created being make a wrong choice? The power of choice? That should be perfect too.

 

Maybe, ok just maybe... Adam also had the power to think and analyse. Aaaah what the hoo, I can't even see God. How do I know He's there? What command? Must be a dream. It's just another tree. No God, eat fruit. What's perfection anyway? I'm perfect, so whatever I do must be perfect.

 

Weird story. And I heard this story is even recorded in some book.

[pug]

Pug,

 

Take a look at the time-stamp on the post that you just responded to.

 

Right here ---- > orthodox christian @ May 20 2005, 03:31 PM

 

I highly doubt orthodox christian will be around to see your response. I don't think he/she/it has been around for a while.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not for overtoxicated chris's eyes. I dislike false doctrines. What if a wide-eyed so and so should read it and jump in?

[Asimov]

That's why it's so weird.

 

How in the world could a perfectly created being make a wrong choice? The power of choice? That should be perfect too.

 

Maybe, ok just maybe... Adam also had the power to think and analyse. Aaaah what the hoo, I can't even see God. How do I know He's there? What command? Must be a dream. It's just another tree. No God, eat fruit. What's perfection anyway? I'm perfect, so whatever I do must be perfect.

 

Weird story. And I heard this story is even recorded in some book.

 

No, that's why you're wrong. Why are you even trying to rationalize something that isn't even rational.

 

Maybe, ok just maybe...Adam also had the power to think and analyse....then he would do it perfectly, so your argument falls flat on its face....once again.

[SkepticOfBible]

It's not for overtoxicated chris's eyes. I dislike false doctrines. What if a wide-eyed so and so should read it and jump in?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Everybody else is doctrine is false except yours off course

[Fweethawt]

Okay, this is getting a little weird...

 

I'm almost to a point where I can half-assed predict what is going to be said next within these threads.

 

Am I getting to the bottom of my rabbit hole?

[pug]

Where is Jesus mentioned here?

God is not a trinity in the OT? It is singular being. Better start following the laws if you want to save your soul

 

Jesus is only mentioned in NT. I fast forwarded the story.

 

Trinity is never mentioned in that book. Some Roman King started it ~ perhaps inspired by some stories in some books?

 

 

Saved? No laws. No works. Simply through His grace. And my faith in Jesus Christ. That's enough.

 

If He forsakes me. So be it.

 

Amen.

 

 

(Errr... don't take the "no laws" bit too literally please)

[pug]

No, that's why you're wrong.  Why are you even trying to rationalize something that isn't even rational. 

 

Maybe, ok just maybe...Adam also had the power to think and analyse....then he would do it perfectly, so your argument falls flat on its face....once again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I beg to differ.

 

If you have the perfect brain you can perfectly analyse and make any decision you wish and think to yourself that would be the perfect decision.

 

Unless... that frigging talking snake make him do it.

 

Aaaah... never mind, you don't believe that weird story do you now?

[SkepticOfBible]

Jesus is only mentioned in NT. I fast forwarded the story.

 

Trinity is never mentioned in that book. Some Roman King started it ~ perhaps inspired by some stories in some books?

Saved? No laws. No works. Simply through His grace. And my faith in Jesus Christ. That's enough.

 

If He forsakes me. So be it.

 

Amen.

(Errr... don't take the "no laws" bit too literally please)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Apparently God doesn't seem to mention

 

"I am giving you these everlasting and perfect laws. But they are useful for the next 3000 years, and then I will send myself down and sacrifice myself so that you don't have to follow these rules"

 

Show me verses from the OT which says that once the messiah will come you don't have to follow the law.

 

On the contrary the laws were supposed to be followed completely after arrival of the messsiah

 

Jer 31:27-36

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

 

Jewish Website

 

Doing Good Works Can't Get You Anywhere With God

 

 

Even the New Testament states that people will be judged according to their works.

Works are performance based actions and they do play a part in gaining the favor of God.

 

Rev 20:12-13

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[pug]

Everybody else is doctrine is false except yours off course

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Sorry.

 

It's false too... to ex-C.

 

OK, there so many denominations in the Christian faith, who is to say which is false? Is Mormon mainstream? Is New Age?

 

Worse, mumbling baptism like it's an oil change...

 

And the way he stated it, it's like taking a headache pill. Hoo boy if only it's that easy. That guy's method will create ex-Cs be4 they are even Cs.

[SkepticOfBible]

 

Sorry. 

 

It's false too... to ex-C.

 

OK, there so many denominations in the Christian faith, who is to say which is false? Is Mormon mainstream? Is New Age?

 

Worse, mumbling baptism like it's an oil change...

 

And the way he stated it, it's like taking a headache pill. Hoo boy if only it's that easy. That guy's method will create ex-Cs be4 they are even Cs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Obviously he is getting from the same source as yours. Aren't you both supposed to be filled with the holy spirit?

[pug]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you.

[Casey]

Hey, FWIW I heard a slightly weirder story:

 

God created a perfect Adam. And gave him the power of choice. So one day God wanted to test His perfect creation.

 

He commanded Adam not to eat the fruit from His tree. It is His, eat any fruit you wish in the garden but NOT His fruit tree then you'll be sinless and live eternally.

 

So choose... my perfect creation empowered with an extra feature to choose! Life (if you don't eat my fruit) or death (if you do).

 

Bummer. Adam stole and ate from God's tree.

 

Well, after a minute (a minute = God's thousand years, give or take a few hundred) God must have had second thoughts. So He send Jesus Christ down to us to inform us that ok, here I am to die for all your sins as long as you love, (mind and soul and heart) His Father. And I'll even send you the Holy Spirit to minister to you when you have been baptised in the Holy Spirit.

 

Oh. Alright I'll (me, the foolish troll) buy that.

 

So I choose His promised eternal life too.

 

And eversince then I have been brainwashed to believe in Jesus Christ.

 

I read the same story too, in some dreary old book. Yet if I remember it correctly, it was Eve who first took the fruit. She then sought out Adam to share it with him. Now what choice had he? If he refused, he would presumably still be in heaven and she'd be cursed; if he ate it, they would both be cursed, which is what happened.

 

Some test eh? Thus were women written off as worthless by the church fathers; had they not committed the first sin? Thus was I told by catholic nuns and brothers all my childhood that I was worthless, etc etc etc. But that's another story, and there is no point in being bitter.

 

And yet, such was the fear that was put into me that I almost leaped out of the catholic frying pan into the protestant fire.However I must say it was but small wonder I eventually was convinced not to believe in this fairy tale. It doesn't make any sense!

Casey

[Fweethawt]

I beg to differ.

 

If you have the perfect brain you can perfectly analyse and make any decision you wish and think to yourself that would be the perfect decision.

 

Unless... that frigging talking snake make him do it.

 

Aaaah... never mind, you don't believe that weird story do you now?

 

A perfect brain can't be "talked" into anything by a "talking snake".

 

 

[pug]

Obviously he is getting from the same source as yours. Aren't you both supposed to be filled with the holy spirit?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not debating that point.

 

I'm disputing his 100%, no-fail. guaranteed "get baptised and you'll be filled with the HS" method.

[Amethyst]

So far, not one pastor has told me God wants us to hate ourselves. All the time is Jesus loves us. So much love I'm gonna burst. Ummm... who has been giving you the false brainwashing?

 

Not literally, no. But when I was younger, my mother made me hate myself because I was slightly overweight (like 5 pounds) and constantly told me I was going to hell. She also told me I was going to hell because I wasn't good enough for her, that I gave her her cancer (which she eventually died from), told me that if I got less than an "A" I would go to hell, etc. Also, I was forced to go to a Christian school. I was severely bullied to the point where I begged my parents to take me to a public school. You cannot tell me that Christianity doesn't lead to low self-esteem. I suspect that my mother had it, which was why she was so ultra-perfectionistic, and she passed it on to me. I was very lucky that I didn't kill myself or develop an eating disorder, although I have struggled with depression because of the bullying that I went through. Keep in mind that the teachers did nothing, even though I told them about it many times. Obviously, they must have condoned it.

 

So, you tell me. Does a good girl deserve go to hell because the only sin she's committed is not being pretty enough for her ultra-perfectionistic mother? Do I deserve to go to hell because I did the research and learned that Christianity is esentially a cult that was developed out of Paganism? Do you honestly believe people deserve to be tortured for all of eternity simply for being rational and asking for evidence?

 

I don't believe in deities who send people to hell. That's terrorism, as another thread pointed out.

 

And yes, I did try liberal Christianity. I couldn't believe in the myth then, either.