The Problem of Sin

[Casey]

In case you should think me an untaught knave Pug, here is the verse describing what happened:

 

Genesis 3

The Fall of Man

    1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

 

    2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

 

    4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

 

    6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7

Casey

[crazy-tiger]

That's why it's so weird.

 

How in the world could a perfectly created being make a wrong choice? The power of choice? That should be perfect too.

 

Maybe, ok just maybe... Adam also had the power to think and analyse. Aaaah what the hoo, I can't even see God. How do I know He's there? What command? Must be a dream. It's just another tree. No God, eat fruit. What's perfection anyway? I'm perfect, so whatever I do must be perfect.

 

Weird story. And I heard this story is even recorded in some book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um... what you've just described just happens to be the thought processes of an IMPERFECT being...

 

There is no way that Adam could be perfect AND think like that.

 

 

 

Sorry, but the only way that the apple could have got eaten was if God created imperfect beings. Since God is perfect, he couldn't have made a mistake, so he created them imperfect ON PURPOSE!

 

Ergo, God created us to fuck-up, so he could come sweeping in to "save" us from a fate that he made damn sure we couldn't avoid.

 

 

Thinking about it, would this mean that God suffers from Munchausen by Proxy?

[Amethyst]

Pug,

 

Take a look at the time-stamp on the post that you just responded to.

 

Well, he also replied to something I wrote way back in May. That's almost half a year ago!

[Fweethawt]

Well, he also replied to something I wrote way back in May. 

 

That's almost half a year ago!

That's more like six months.

[pug]

A perfect brain can't be "talked" into anything by a "talking snake". 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, that snake didn't talk to him directly. Eve did.

 

Oh, if that didn't happen.

 

Now it gets complicated. Does Adam want to do the right, perfect thing? Or piss off his life partner? Or piss off God? Who is more important?

 

On the one hand, he'll be condemened for being evil and sexist ~ blaming an innocent party and of the opposite sex. On top of that he won't be perfect any more. But Eve does warm his bed at night.

 

On the other hand, it is his God's tree of knowledge after all. And being perfect he should not have any problem making the right decision right?

 

Oh Hell.

[Asimov]

I beg to differ.

 

If you have the perfect brain you can perfectly analyse and make any decision you wish and think to yourself that would be the perfect decision.

 

Unless... that frigging talking snake make him do it.

 

Aaaah... never mind, you don't believe that weird story do you now?

 

You're such a moron.

 

How it is possible that you can live let alone type is beyond me.

[Fweethawt]

Actually, that snake didn't talk to him directly. Eve did.

Let me guess... Eve wasn't 'created' perfect, right?

[pug]

Not literally, no.  But when I was younger, my mother made me hate myself because I was slightly overweight (like 5 pounds) and constantly told me I was going to hell.  She also told me I was going to hell because I wasn't good enough for her, that I gave her her cancer (which she eventually died from), told me that if I got less than an "A" I would go to hell, etc.  Also, I was forced to go to a Christian school.  I was severely bullied to the point where I begged my parents to take me to a public school.  You cannot tell me that Christianity doesn't lead to low self-esteem.  I suspect that my mother had it, which was why she was so ultra-perfectionistic, and she passed it on to me.  I was very lucky that I didn't kill myself or develop an eating disorder, although I have struggled with depression because of the bullying that I went through.  Keep in mind that the teachers did nothing, even though I told them about it many times.  Obviously, they must have condoned it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is terrible Amethyst. And I know you are not the only one who had to go through this hell on earth. For us Chinese, our ma also used the same sure-fire trick, only it's not the Christian God hell. It's called hell as well. They even describe it to us ~ tell lies, cut off tongue. Steal, cut off hands. Well, the usual punishments. Terrifying. But no punishment for being (slightly) overweight.

 

Religion can be so easily used as a rod to terrorise kids. Well, at least profit from this bitter lesson when next time you educate your children. Hope you have risen above your low esteem and become stronger.

 

So, you tell me.  Does a good girl deserve go to hell because the only sin she's committed is not being pretty enough for her ultra-perfectionistic mother?

Of course not. (((hug)))

 

Do I deserve to go to hell because I did the research and learned that Christianity is esentially a cult that was developed out of Paganism? 

Nope. Hee hee be a salad bar troll like me. Just take the good stuff. Junk the rest. Don't know what I'll be labeled tho'.

 

Do you honestly believe people deserve to be tortured for all of eternity simply for being rational and asking for evidence?

No. I pray He touches you soon in His own way.

 

I don't believe in deities who send people to hell.  That's terrorism, as another thread pointed out.

Yaaaa, more or less. He'll only send you if you don't behave within a certain time span. He does gives you opportunities to not sin and sin again tho'. The way I'm behaving, it's certain a very hot place I'll be heading.

 

And yes, I did try liberal Christianity.  I couldn't believe in the myth then, either.

Errr... what is liberal Christianity?

[pug]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're such a moron.

we've established that. You may be interested to know, I'm a troll too.

 

How it is possible that you can live let alone type is beyond me.

Fortunately, it's not beyond my loving God. Go figure.

[pug]

Let me guess... Eve wasn't 'created' perfect, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

She had the same problem didn't she, perfect as she is?

 

On the one hand, blah, blah... On the other, ya dah, ya dah...

 

Which leaves da serpent. The perfect serpent? Did it say evil or crafty serpent? I forget.

[Asimov]

we've established that. You may be interested to know, I'm a troll too.

Fortunately, it's not beyond my loving God. Go figure.

 

No, you're not a troll. You're retarded.

 

You couldn't come up with a rational argument to save your life.

 

Listen....if Adam was created perfect, everything he did was perfect, including the choices he made.

 

There is no way around it except to admit that Adam wasn't created perfect. It's not that hard to wrap your brain around it.

[Kuroikaze]

Actually, that snake didn't talk to him directly. Eve did.

 

Oh, if that didn't happen.

 

Now it gets complicated. Does Adam want to do the right, perfect thing? Or piss off his life partner? Or piss off God? Who is more important?

 

On the one hand, he'll be condemened for being evil and sexist ~ blaming an innocent party and of the opposite sex. On top of that he won't be perfect any more. But Eve does warm his bed at night.

 

On the other hand, it is his God's tree of knowledge after all. And being perfect he should not have any problem making the right decision right?

 

Oh Hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What does it even mean to be perfect anyway, do you even have a deffinition?

 

By eating from the tree they learned the difference between good an evil, by the bibles own words. If this was knowledge they lacked before, then they were incomplete and therefore not perfect....not to mention the difficulty of God blaming them for eating from the tree when they could not have known that disobeying God was wrong...that is if they really didn't know the difference between good and evil.

[pug]

No, you're not a troll.  You're retarded.

 

You couldn't come up with a rational argument to save your life.

 

Listen....if Adam was created perfect, everything he did was perfect, including the choices he made.

 

There is no way around it except to admit that Adam wasn't created perfect.  It's not that hard to wrap your brain around it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Asimov, Asimov,

 

You have not really followed my retarded rationale, have you?

 

Adam is perfect. He makes perfect choices. Not wishing to listen to Eve is perfectly ok? Was that a perfect decision?

 

Let's imagine you are perfect too. Your father says don't take the bike for a night cruise. Your very own perfect Eve slides up to you and whispers let's go. Or are you chicken Mr. Perfect? Screw your father. Let's ride.

 

But then again Adam is perfect. He makes the perfect choice and he doesn't eat the fruit. He lives forever. No death for him. And they lived happily ever after.

 

It's a man-made tale to rationalise the fear of God.

 

Ok, that's good too.

 

But of course, I'm still a retarded troll.

 

That's good too.

[Kuroikaze]

Asimov, Asimov,

 

You have not really followed my retarded rationale, have you?

 

Adam is perfect. He makes perfect choices. Not wishing to listen to Eve is perfectly ok? Was that a perfect decision?

 

Let's imagine you are perfect too. Your father says don't take the bike for a night cruise. Your very own perfect Eve slides up to you and whispers let's go. Or are you chicken Mr. Perfect? Screw your father. Let's ride.

 

But then again Adam is perfect. He makes the perfect choice and he doesn't eat the fruit. He lives forever. No death for him. And they lived happily ever after.

 

It's a man-made tale to rationalise the fear of God.

 

Ok, that's good too.

 

But of course, I'm still a retarded troll.

 

That's good too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What? this makes no sense and only proves my point, the concept of perfection is absurd.

 

Is the perfect action to obey his father or his wife/lover/whatever. According to your logic he listens to his wife. However both choices have a down side. there is no perfect choice, and as such there is no such thing as perfection either.

[pug]

What does it even mean to be perfect anyway, do you even have a deffinition?

 

By eating from the tree they learned the difference between good an evil,  by the bibles own words.  If this was knowledge they lacked before, then they were incomplete and therefore not perfect....not to mention the difficulty of God blaming them for eating from the tree when they could not have known that disobeying God was wrong...that is if they really didn't know the difference between good and evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey Kuroikaze,

 

Exactly. What is perfect anyway? By whose standard?

 

Let's go back to my weird story. What I wish to illustrate is that God simply wanted to test His apparently perfect creation.

 

Maybe, He wanted to have more fun? Let's see if I throw in an extra feature, power of critical thinking. Ah haaa.

 

Then make Adam, my perfect creation, choose. Life? Or Death?

 

Then throw in a sultry female distraction.

 

Yeah, even the serpent can be part of His grand deception plan.

 

 

Or the easiest explaination. I wish to trick my creations into never forgetting me. So I test them (which I know they will fail) and blame them for eternity.

 

But they didn't give a fig. So next trick, send Jesus.

 

Even then, also not working perfectly. Some Christians telling other Christians they are not as Christian as them. Wham! Pow! Bam!

 

Not to mention other religions getting into the picture.

 

Ah, just like old times.

 

Time to do a makeover.

[Asimov]

Asimov, Asimov,

 

You have not really followed my retarded rationale, have you?

 

Adam is perfect. He makes perfect choices. Not wishing to listen to Eve is perfectly ok? Was that a perfect decision?

 

Well, let's see, Adam knows God's in charge, he knows that it's wrong to eat from the tree, so his decisions will perfectly coincide with the authority that he knows he must obey. He's not going to stray from that, because he is perfect.

 

Let's imagine you are perfect too. Your father says don't take the bike for a night cruise. Your very own perfect Eve slides up to you and whispers let's go. Or are you chicken Mr. Perfect? Screw your father. Let's ride.

 

Let's imagine you are dumb....not hard. Let's imagine that you make up this really dumb analogy...once again not hard. Then let's imagine that I don't respond to your dumb analogy, because it is dumb...definitely not hard.

 

But then again Adam is perfect. He makes the perfect choice and he doesn't eat the fruit. He lives forever. No death for him. And they lived happily ever after.

 

It's a man-made tale to rationalise the fear of God.

 

Ok, that's good too.

 

But that's not what happened, so now we have a story that has a plot hole in it. Since Genesis and Adam are the very foundation of Christianity, the entire religion crumbles into a heap of logic.

[pug]

What? this makes no sense and only proves my point, the concept of perfection is absurd.

 

Is the perfect action to obey his father or his wife/lover/whatever.  According to your logic he listens to his wife.  However both choices have a down side.  there is no perfect choice, and as such there is no such thing as perfection either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Adam is perfect, why no perfect choice?

[pug]

.[/b]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, let's see, Adam knows God's in charge, he knows that it's wrong to eat from the tree, so his decisions will perfectly coincide with the authority that he knows he must obey.  He's not going to stray from that, because he is perfect.

But why doesn't Adam obey?

 

Let's imagine you are dumb....not hard.  Let's imagine that you make up this really dumb analogy...once again not hard.  Then let's imagine that I don't respond to your dumb analogy, because it is dumb...definitely not hard.

But you did respond. But don't worry, be assured I'm still dumber than you.

 

But that's not what happened, so now we have a story that has a plot hole in it.  Since Genesis and Adam are the very foundation of Christianity, the entire religion crumbles into a heap of logic

And how do you know it didn't? You have proof? Oh, wait, wait, you were there?What plot hole? Adam is perfect, accordingly he should make the perfect choice. But he didn't, that's the key to the plot.

 

You base Genesis and Adam as THE very foundation of Christianity? OK I see. Bummer. My entire religion has just crumbled into a heap of illogical myths. Oh well *sob*

 

But you have a nice day...

[Ouroboros]

I read the same story too, in some dreary old book. Yet if I remember it correctly, it was Eve who first took the fruit. She then sought out Adam to share it with him. Now what choice had he?

Actually, Adam was with her.

Gen 3:6 KJVA  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

He was so in awe of Eve's beauty that he didn't even look at what she was doing.

 

Another problem with the Adam & Eve story is that they didn't have the capacity to choose between right and wrong, but yet expected to be able to understand the difference. How do we know that? Because that was exactly what the fruit would give you.

 

Gen 2:17 KJVA  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Basically, they didn't have the capacity to understand not to sin, because eating the fruit would give them that capacity. How can you be held responsible to know something when you don't even have the function in your brain to do it yet?

 

I our world, a person that is mentally not up to par with the rest of us, steals a candybar at the store, he won't get death penalty, but he will be treated in a ward instead for his mental incapacity.

 

While God, gives A&E a brain that can't understand the difference between good and evil, give them a law they can't understand, and when they do break that law, he not only give them death penalty, but eternal punishment.

 

Secondly, like Asimov was debating earlier, the world was Perfect, meaning, no faults, not errors, no bugs, no kinks in the system, no problems, but sin or acting on sin is an imperfect act! And not only that, the fruit of good and evil, alludes to that evil already existed, yet the world was perfect. How can that be? We have a world that is perfect, but already evil exists, before A&E sinned. This means evil is perfect too, and sinning is perfect also, it is God's perfect intention for sin and evil to exists, so why the frikkin hell does it bother him so much? Why eternal punishment and torture for something that he consider perfect and makes him happy? The only solution is that he enjoys the thought of people going to hell for torture.

[Ouroboros]

Um... what you've just described just happens to be the thought processes of an IMPERFECT being...

Good point.

 

God created the fruit of good and evil, so he create the preconditions for the possibilites of sin.

P1) God created sin.

P2) Sin is not perfect.

C1) God is not perfect

 

There is no way that Adam could be perfect AND think like that.

Sorry, but the only way that the apple could have got eaten was if God created imperfect beings. Since God is perfect, he couldn't have made a mistake, so he created them imperfect ON PURPOSE!

That's the thing. The fruit would give them the knowledge, so A&E were not perfect, they were already a faulty design. Idiotic Design.

 

Either the Bible is wrong about the world was perfect, or God didn't create sin. If God didn't create sin, then the Devil did it. But God created the Devil, so God still did create sin.

 

Ergo, God created us to fuck-up, so he could come sweeping in to "save" us from a fate that he made damn sure we couldn't avoid.

Yup. He wanted A&E to fail. He wanted the sin to be brought into the world. He wanted it, so he could make up a stupid concept for the salvation.

 

Thinking about it, would this mean that God suffers from Munchausen by Proxy?

Not sure what you mean?

[Ouroboros]

That's more like six months.

I thought a half-of-a-year was the same as six months?

[crazy-tiger]

Not sure what you mean?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"MUNCHAUSEN BY PROXY (MBP) (also called Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, and Factitious Disorder by Proxy) is a label for a pattern of behavior in which caretakers deliberately exaggerate and/or fabricate and/or induce physical and/or psychological-behavioral-mental health problems in others.

 

This pattern of behavior constitutes a separate kind of maltreatment (abuse/neglect) that manifests as physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, or a combination. The primary purpose of this behavior is to gain some form of internal gratification, such as attention, for the perpetrator."

 

 

 

 

 

Now tell me... doesn't that sound just like God?

[Amethyst]

That is terrible Amethyst. And I know you are not the only one who had to go through this hell on earth. For us Chinese, our ma also used the same sure-fire trick, only it's not the Christian God hell. It's called hell as well. They even describe it to us ~ tell lies, cut off tongue. Steal, cut off hands. Well, the usual punishments. Terrifying. But no punishment for being (slightly) overweight.

 

Religion can be so easily used as a rod to terrorise kids. Well, at least profit from this bitter lesson when next time you educate your children. Hope you have risen above your low esteem and become stronger.

 

I have much higher self-esteem now, but don't make the assumption that was the sole reason I deconverted. I did a heckuva lot of research into Christian history first. You see, I don't believe things just because people tell them to me.

 

Yaaaa, more or less. He'll only send you if you don't behave within a certain time span. He does gives you opportunities to not sin and sin again tho'. The way I'm behaving, it's certain a very hot place I'll be heading.

 

Okay, I'll bite. Let's say you get pissed off and kill someone. You immediately realize your stupidity, and run and stay in hiding for the rest of your life because you don't want to go to jail. But you don't feel sorry because you feel you were doing the "right thing" under the circumstances, whatever it may be. Let's say that person insulted you or something. You deserve to go to jail, but do you still deserve to burn in hell forever for that?

 

No.

 

And I'll tell you why.

 

An eternity of torture for a finite "sin" is patently unfair. It's like locking a child up in a bedroom for hitting a sibling or something, and grounding that child forever for making that mistake. Why would you want to worship a deity like that? I don't. Not that I would ever harm anyone except in self-defense, but the entire concept is still totally unfair.

 

Errr... what is liberal Christianity?

Essentially salad-bar Christianity. Or those Christians who think Jesus was a great philosopher, but the whole Bible is just a myth, but they still go to church anyway. Or Amandanity. I can't do that, though. I'm not willing to believe in parts of a myth if I don't believe in the main parts (like hell).

 

I'm agnostic. I'm not going to tell you that there is for sure no divine being, but if there is one, it's not the Judeo-Christian god. Divinity is NOT torturing people just because they disagree with you or make one mistake in their lives and aren't sorry for it. Think about that for a while.

[Skankboy]

Is it just me or do we x's tend to hold god to a higher standard than most active christians?

[mwc]

Pug,

 

Here's a few definitions for you (from Concise Oxford English Dictionary:

 

perfect

(adjective)

1) having all the required elements, qualities, or characteristics.

2) free from any flaw; faultless.

3) complete; absolute

 

desire

(noun)

a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen.

(verb)

strongly wish for or want.

 

want

(verb)

1) have a desire to possess or do (something); wish for.

3) (often want for) literary lack or be short of something desirable or essential.

(noun)

1) lack or deficiency.

2) a desire.

 

Now take a look at this verse (Genesis 3:6):

 

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat

 

By definition something that is perfect is complete. Something that is perfect, which is by definition complete, cannot want or desire anything as nothing is lacking to be added Being complete humans they would have not needed wisdom (a human might be perfect without wisdom) or they already possessed wisdom (if a perfect human requires it to be complete). If they had wisdom then they wouldn't have eaten the fruit to get it and if they didn't need wisdom, being perfect, would not have wanted it. Neither, Adam nor Eve could have desired to be made wise and eat from the tree (despite what any serpant did or did not do).

 

A bigger problem would be what is perfect? Don't you need two or more of something to even begin determining that in any meaningful way? If I had the only diamond in existance I could assume it was perfect even if it were yellowed, cracked and dull. If another diamond popped in from nowhere I could compare and discover my diamond is imperfect compared to the brilliant white diamond that appeared or I could find my diamond to still be perfect if the new diamond were even worse than mine. By this, as you claim only one god exists, it could be the most screwed up thing ever but without anything to compare to it would be "perfect" (and if it made us, and we're lesser than it, we'd get even more screwed up).

 

For the sake of argument let's go with the ideal concept of perfection for "god" (which is out of anything and everything that could ever possibly be he is the pinnacle of them all). So, bible god being perfect wants for nothing. He would not have made us to begin with. Here's a little run through I've been working on to help you out (the wording needs to work but it's still very understandable):

 

God is perfect

Perfection is unchanging

God is unchanging

 

God is all things (omni-everything, "I am", "Alpha and Omega" etc.)

All things wants for nothing as it is the collection of everything

God wants for nothing

 

God cannot want worship

God cannot want belief in him

God cannot want companionship

God cannot want change

God cannot change

 

If God cannot change God is not omni-everything

If God does change God was not perfect

 

If God does not want anything God is complete

If God is complete God does not act

If God does not act God is inert

 

Read it over a few times and realize that no matter how you sum it up that no creature like bible god can exist and act like anything described in your little book. He's either flawed or simply doesn't do anything. Since that alone is enough contradiction to falsify the entirety of the story (as it hinges on a perfect "god" as well as his perfect works and plan) there's no point in discussing, or believing in, a jesus or anything else related to the bible doctrine (I'll still debunk it since I find it to be harmful but beyond that it's barely a good myth).

 

mwc