The Unhijackable Thread

[Knightley]

^your clown siggy scares me

 

 

But you don't have a penis...

 

how do you know?

 

[Nihil]

^your clown siggy scares me

 

 

But you don't have a penis...

 

how do you know?

 

 

 

I checked while you were sleeping.

[Nihil]

I'm in the library kid section, and one of the books on the shelf is, I shit you not, "Who Killed Cock Robin?"

[Ex-COG]

^your clown siggy scares me

 

 

But you don't have a penis...

 

how do you know?

 

 

 

I checked while you were sleeping.

Hey, that's Santa's job! He sees you when you're sleeping,...

[Knightley]

I write sins not tragedies, man I love that song!

[Ladyfractal]

Differing greatly from the heterosexual world, homosexuals are an oppressed minority.

 

BWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

But, really, does it ever happen? I mean, people say mean shit to me all the time, that's just part of life, and i have to be a man and stand up for myself. But does anyone actually get bashed or oppressed these days because they're gay? Well, maybe, but only in their own head. I'd like to see some statistics on the per capita icidence of gay bashing/quantifiable discrimination compared to, say, the per capita incidece of people getting struck by lightening. I've met 2 people in my life who have been struck by lightening (or claimed to be);

 

Huai;

 

Firstly the per capita incidence of being struck by lightning is not a good measure against which to measure he per capita incidence of being gay bashed. So let's not compares apples to buffalo, shall we?

 

Now, although you have never met anyone who has been assaulted for being gay, I have. In my twenties, I was a freelance reporter just starting out in the SF Bay Area. Like a lot of newbies, I spent time covering the crime beat. In a two year period, in just SF, Oakland and Berkeley there were 950! reported cases of gays or lesbians being assaulted. There were seven deaths. Now, admittedly, this was about 15 years ago and I strongly suspect that the numbers have reduced dramatically (in that area)

 

Here are numbers from within the last five years;

 

-- Nationwide, 2,475 people were victimized by anti-gay violence, up 10 percent from 2,249 in 1999.

 

-- Attacks resulting in serious injury throughout the country were down 41 percent, from 363 in 1999 to 215 last year, while assaults in general rose 60 percent from 90 to 145.

 

-- One in six attacks nationwide were against transgender people.

 

-- Of the 415 incidents reported in Northern California, 271 occurred in San Francisco, while 144 were scattered across Northern California.

 

-- U.S. murders motivated by anti-gay hate were down 43 percent, from 28 in 1999 to 16 in 2000.

 

I don't have stats for any years past 2000...I'm sure they exist, I don't have time to search for them.

 

Now, as far as other issues. In 19 states in the Union you can lose custody of your children for no other sufficient reason than that you are gay or lesbian. Most of these states lie south of the Mason-Dixon line.

 

In only 14 states are there protections against discrimination in employment because of sexual orientation. In only 22 states are their protections against discimination in public accomodations because of sexual orientation. In only 17 states is the protection against discrimination in housing because of sexual orientation.

 

Now, the upshot of that is that unless you are very careful about selecting which state you are going to be in when you come out you can lose your job, your housing and your kids for no more sufficient reason than that you are gay or lesbian.

 

# 51 percent of lesbians and gay men in Pennsylvania reported experiencing discrimination in their lifetime

# 54 percent of respondents in a 2001 statewide survey of lesbian, gay, and bisexual New Yorkers had experienced discrimination in employment, housing, or public accommodation since 1996, with eight percent reporting that they were fired specifically because of their sexual orientation; 27 percent also reported being called names such as "faggot" and "dyke" in the workplace

# 35 percent of respondents in a 2004 Task Force survey of residents of Topeka, KS reported receiving harassing letters, e-mails, or faxes at work because of their sexual orientation, and 29% had observed discrimination based on sexual orientation seeking social or government services

 

Now, again, you may not have ever met anyone to whom this happened but I'm willing to bet that your sample size is smaller than my sample size. I know, personally, within my circle 3 people who have been fired for being gay, 5 people who had custody of their children taken away for being gay, some 9 people who have had some form of violence done to their person requiring medical intervention (i.e. they ended up in an emergency room), two women who were raped because they were lesbian and any number of us who have been harassed on the job for being gay.

 

This is over a period of just under two decades.

 

By the way, just so you know there are 73 people killed by lightning every year and 400 people injured after surviving a lightning strike. Contrast that with 2,400 injuries from gay bashings per year. Now, you were saying...how did you put it? "BWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!"

 

It's not a laughing matter, my friend. I know you will accuse me of trying to force you to be PC. I'm not. You made an inaccurate statement, I have corrected you on that inaccuracy. You may not believe that being gay or lesbian puts you at a disadvantage in this society, but it does.

 

Cheers

Lf

[Ladyfractal]

Btw. statistics were catenated from a number of sources:

 

US Department of Justice

Communities United Against Violence

National Gay and Lesbian Task Force

National Center for Lesbian Rights

Human Rights Campaign Fund

 

were my primary sources. This should blunt any accusations that I have made statistics up out of whole cloth.

 

While four of the sources are gay and lesbian organizations, and while they do have a dog in this fight, I would ask any who would impeach them on that basis alone where else they would have me pull in such statistics OTHER than organizations whose mandate is to know these things?

 

Cheers

Aj

(yes, I've had this discussion before. Just acting prophylactically)

[Knightley]

yeah you know its funny how this thread just keeps on going, but a few innocent topics elsewhere get deleted.

[duderonomy]

Knightley,

 

I don't know about the rest of 'em here, but nobody has been imperssed with my stamina in almost thirty years!

 

rrcanna,

 

You are indeed one intolerant person. I always get a kick out of people like you who rail against intolerance...and yet are so intolerant of the views of others.

 

If you would shut your keyboard and open your mind for just one moment, you may find that you and I aren't so far apart in our views. I'm against 'gay-bashing'. I don't think anyone should be bashed. But I also don't know how anyone would know that anyone was gay unless the gay person was making an issue of it. So then it comes down to whom one is boinking, and as I said before, I don't care. The same as the macho types who used to parade around the locker room and brag about who they boinked. I don't care. If one makes it the business of others, then it is the business of others, and those others may also have their views. There is nothing in the Constitution of the land I live in that says that I must agree with you.

 

Now, if someone is, say, working at their job, and that persons significant other happens to stop in, and be of the same gender, and that causes the worker to be discriminated against, then I find that to be wrong. Or if, say, two women are out for a walk and holding hands, and the neandrathals come out of their caves to throw rocks at them because 'they's just diffrent!'...that's reprehensible.

 

But if you parade past my house kissing and groping in some militant way, as if me and my kind aren't quite good enough, then the gay parades can take the same place in my heart as the parading hetero sub-idiots in the locker room, who think I care about whom they fuck, or that they fuck, and try to shove it down my throat (no pun intended). See? Or the Amish that shun my ways and my tax bought street and yet horse and cart down my road where I have to drive, and the neighbor kids around me have to walk to school and let their horses shit in the street. How pure they are!

 

I don't care what you do, and you'd better not care about what I do, as long as you aren't hurting kids or fido. But an intolerant hypocrite by any other name would stink just as bad, Oh Hateful One.

 

If that's over your head, then let me simplify it for you: Stop trying to spank me in front of all these people, mom, and practice what you preach.

[Ladyfractal]

 

I don't think anyone should be bashed. But I also don't know how anyone would know that anyone was gay unless the gay person was making an issue of it.

 

Dude:

 

Here's how. It's really quite simple. You will gather, by my name, that I'm female. Now, try this on for size: "Last weekend, my girlfriend and I went and saw "An Inconvenient Truth" Guess what I just did? I just came out as a lesbian. Did I say I was a lesbian? Nope. Did I throw it in anyone's face? Nope.

 

Now, if someone is, say, working at their job, and that persons significant other happens to stop in, and be of the same gender, and that causes the worker to be discriminated against, then I find that to be wrong. Or if, say, two women are out for a walk and holding hands, and the neandrathals come out of their caves to throw rocks at them because 'they's just diffrent!'...that's reprehensible.

 

The problem, Dude is that having one's same-sex partner stop in at one's work IS considered 'putting it in people's faces'. When I walk down the street holding greygirls' hand, we are "forcing it on other people'. Now, you were saying that it's fine to be gay as long as it's not put in your face? Does this change the equation a bit? Or should I just never hold my girlfriend's hand so that I'm not putting it in your face?

 

Cheers

lf

[woodsmoke]

I can't speak for Duder, obviously, but I think that's a matter of perception. If I see a homosexual couple holding hands or hear/read a comment similar to yours, I likely will start a bit, but not because I'm prejudiced. The truth is (and GreyGirl can confirm this) I live in Utah, and homosexuals are about as common here as standing water--at least, those who don't consciously hide their sexuality (I agree with you that the fact they feel the need to do this pretty clearly indicates something's wrong, but I think you'll find pretty universal agreement on that here, and it's another topic for another discussion). Beyond that initial moment of natural fascination with something new and different, however, I don't really give it much thought. It's not my business and in most cases I don't want it to be.

 

Of course, other people may react differently depending on how they perceive the situation. Some may persecute or harrass you, some may congratulate you, and still others will have the same reaction as myself. As with pretty well everything else in life, it all depends on the individual.

[duderonomy]

Knightley,

 

I don't know about the rest of 'em here, but nobody has been imperssed with my stamina in almost thirty years!

 

rrcanna,

 

You are indeed one intolerant person. I always get a kick out of people like you who rail against intolerance...and yet are so intolerant of the views of others.

 

If you would shut your keyboard and open your mind for just one moment, you may find that you and I aren't so far apart in our views. I'm against 'gay-bashing'. I don't think anyone should be bashed. But I also don't know how anyone would know that anyone was gay unless the gay person was making an issue of it. So then it comes down to whom one is boinking, and as I said before, I don't care. The same as the macho types who used to parade around the locker room and brag about who they boinked. I don't care. If one makes it the business of others, then it is the business of others, and those others may also have their views. There is nothing in the Constitution of the land I live in that says that I must agree with you.

 

Now, if someone is, say, working at their job, and that persons significant other happens to stop in, and be of the same gender, and that causes the worker to be discriminated against, then I find that to be wrong. Or if, say, two women are out for a walk and holding hands, and the neandrathals come out of their caves to throw rocks at them because 'they's just diffrent!'...that's reprehensible.

 

But if you parade past my house kissing and groping in some militant way, as if me and my kind aren't quite good enough, then the gay parades can take the same place in my heart as the parading hetero sub-idiots in the locker room, who think I care about whom they fuck, or that they fuck, and try to shove it down my throat (no pun intended). See? Or the Amish that shun my ways and my tax bought street and yet horse and cart down my road where I have to drive, and the neighbor kids around me have to walk to school and let their horses shit in the street. How pure they are!

 

I don't care what you do, and you'd better not care about what I do, as long as you aren't hurting kids or fido. But an intolerant hypocrite by any other name would stink just as bad, Oh Hateful One.

 

If that's over your head, then let me simplify it for you: Stop trying to spank me in front of all these people, mom, and practice what you preach.

 

OK. Here's my last post again. Which one of you two people can read but not understand? Or are you trolls?

 

I just can't believe that primates that can type, can also be so willfully ignorant. Or maybe you are trolls?

 

 

 

Again,

 

I always get a kick out of you who are against intolerance, and yet are so intolerant of the views of others.

 

 

 

Ladyfractal,

If you would reread my post, you would see that I agree with you as to the work thing. And much more.

[duderonomy]

Why then, do you love to hate?

[Nihil]

Am I the only one completely ignoring this discussion?

[Ladyfractal]

Dude:

 

I believe that you misunderstood the point that I was making so I'll try to make it in a different way.

 

You are saying that provided that homosexuals aren't parading around shoving it in your face then you have no problem with us. Okay, fine as far as it goes. The problem--and I'm not saying YOU feel like this so this is a more general statement--is that there are folks, very large numbers of them former co-religionists of the folks here, who think that any mention of a same-sex partnership is 'shoving it in their face'. To give you an example:

 

When I started dating greygirl I was, understandably, quite pleased. One of my co-workers came to me, I had just finished reading an email from her and had a big smile on my face. She asked what I was so happy about and I said "I met this amazing woman". Her immediate response was "I don't wanna know!" Now, if I had said "I met this amazing guy" her response would've been something along the lines of "Oh? That's wonderful! What does he do...etc." To her I was 'shoving my sex life in her face'. To me, I was talking about a new relationship like I would if it were a heterosexual one.

 

My point--and this is the important bit--was simply to illustrate that while *you* are tolerant the line for 'shoving it in people's faces' is a fuzzy one. I was not saying that you felt that way specifically simply illustrating a larger point.

 

Cheers

lf

ps. Really there's no need to be abrasive. It really is possible to have a principled disagreement with someone without resorting to being caustic. If you really have to do it that way, I can. My Post-Fu is strong but I very strongly prefer to discuss ideas and not the people propounding an idea. YMMV.

[woodsmoke]

Am I the only one completely ignoring this discussion?

 

Are you kidding? Your siggy pic adds more horror to the discussion than any amount of persecution accounts could possibly hope to.

 

[greygirl]

I can't speak for Duder, obviously, but I think that's a matter of perception. If I see a homosexual couple holding hands or hear/read a comment similar to yours, I likely will start a bit, but not because I'm prejudiced. The truth is (and GreyGirl can confirm this) I live in Utah, and homosexuals are about as common here as standing water--at least, those who don't consciously hide their sexuality (I agree with you that the fact they feel the need to do this pretty clearly indicates something's wrong, but I think you'll find pretty universal agreement on that here, and it's another topic for another discussion). Beyond that initial moment of natural fascination with something new and different, however, I don't really give it much thought. It's not my business and in most cases I don't want it to be.

 

Of course, other people may react differently depending on how they perceive the situation. Some may persecute or harrass you, some may congratulate you, and still others will have the same reaction as myself. As with pretty well everything else in life, it all depends on the individual.

 

Actually, sorry, I can't confirm that. Utah, in fact, has a rather large and active GLBT community. I can see how it wouldn't seem so to you, given the area where you live, but there it is. The only real difference between Utah and any other state is that the gay community is far more concentrated in specific areas, rather than spread out over a large area. In Utah, if you're homosexual, you're most likely going to live in downtown Salt Lake, Sugarhouse (where the community is large enough to have elected Jackie Biskupski-an out and unapologetic lesbian-to the legislature), or the Avenues. In those areas, there's a *lot* of queer people. Salt Lake is home to the Stonewall Center (a GLBT community center), a reasonably large Pride parade and Pride Day festival, several gay bars, one specifically lesbian club, and "the gay Denny's". Given the size of the city and the religious/political climate, that's pretty significant. And you're right, it does say something that a community that large has so few areas where it's even remotely okay to just live and be who you are, that the whole community would appear invisible in the rest of the state.

 

People tend to see what they want to see, or what they expect. In my mind, I'm just having a nice afternoon with my girlfriend, and I want to hold her hand. In the mind of a homophobe, we're forcing our lifestyle on other people by not hiding it and acting as though holding hands were a shameful thing we need to keep hidden. Ladyfractal and I currently live three hours apart and only get to see each other on the weekends. When she meets me at the train station, and we haven't seen each other all week, we're going to kiss. To me, I've missed my girlfriend, and I want to kiss her. Meeting your SO at the train station/airport and kissing in the terminal after a long separation is a time honored tradition, and I seriously doubt that anyone would begrudge a straight couple who did it, assuming they bothered to notice at all. In fact, most people would probably think it's sweet. To a homophobe, it's disgusting that she and I would kiss in public, where anyone can see us, even impressionable children. When we do kiss in public, we're both aware that we're taking a calculated risk. I find it incredibly sad that we should have to even think about that just to do something as simple and normal as greeting each other at the train station. To a homophobe, kissing my girlfriend means we're shoving our lifestyle in your face. We're not, but someone who wants to find evidence that gay people are doing something wrong is going to find it, even if they have to do the mental gymnastics required to see as disgusting and deviant something that's perfectly acceptable for 90% of the population.

[greygirl]

As for "in people's face" I believe duderonomy made it clear that "holding hands" isn't "in someone's face" People who believe it is, that's their personal problem. Basically I think his point is, and I agree, is that makeout sessions in public are gross, no matter WHAT orientation the parties involved are.

 

No, actually, he didn't. He specifically said that if he is aware of your orientation, then it's being forced on him. In order for him to not be aware of my orientation at all, I'd have to never hold hands with my girlfriend in public, never kiss her or touch her in public (note that I'm not talking about making out or having sex in public. I'm talking about the perfectly normal, not excessive, kissing that most healthy couples engage in), never mention my girlfriend in any way. In order to keep people from knowing my orientation at all, I have to put forth a lot of effort. It requires a lot of pronoun games, being hyper-aware of my surroundings, and quite often outright lying to keep it hidden.

 

I realize that you're saying only excessive PDA is unacceptable, and it's unacceptable for couples of any orientation. The thing is, for most people, "excessive" PDA for straight couples is very, very different. Even if you don't have a problem with holding hands (and I'm not claiming that you do), the fact is that we're taking a risk holding hands in public that straight couples don't.

 

Do you see the irony of pointing out how the extremists hurt the cause of gay rights as a whole (thus lumping all of us in together) while at the same time getting upset that people who say "you can be gay, I just don't want to know about it" get lumped in with the extremist homophobes? All I want is to be able to live my life and be with the woman I love. If you don't want to know about it, you don't have to watch. Just don't expect me to agree with you when you claim that I should have to hide who I am so you (general you, not "you" you) don't have to see it.

[woodsmoke]

Thanks for the info, GG. I should have realized things would be different in SLC--most everything is. That's exactly why I'd want to live there if it just weren't so frakking big.

 

We're both right, though, that just about anywhere in Utah excluding SLC and Dixie my perception of homosexuality as extremely uncommon holds true.

 

As far as defining what constitutes "in your face" behavior by a couple, I don't think anything posted thus far has actually contradicted my earlier statement that it's all a matter of perception. You and LFr are correct in stating that some people are going to take it to an unreasonably intolerant extreme, Duder and Zoe are correct in stating that PDsA are tacky and distasteful regardless of sexual orientation, and I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the observation that said definition is by its very nature hazy and difficult to pin down.

 

It seems to me that we're all pretty well in agreement on the issue, the only difference is in which point of view we approach it from. Then again, I suppose there doesn't necessarily need to be a disagreement for a discussion to take place.

[Dirac]

I prefer scrambled eggs on toast, if I am perfectly honest.

[woodsmoke]

With bacon, of course.

 

Everything is better with bacon.

[greygirl]

Meatcake. Meatcake is where it's at.

[dr_funkenstein]

Meatcake. Meatcake is where it's at.

 

Careful. Marie Antoinette was decapitated for saying something very similar.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Prefer elk backstrap myself..

 

kFL

[Knightley]

Am I the only one completely ignoring this discussion?

 

Nope, I too am ignoring it, frankly I think its fucking hilarious. I just pop in for random comments....