What Would Make You A Non-believer?

[Dhampir]

Here’s a side comment, which you will more than likely not appreciate. My very intelligent friend, my ‘dead body buddy’ Donna, told me a long time ago that people who use foul language all the time have a lazy vocabulary because they won’t go to the trouble to use better descriptive words. Just thought I’d throw that in there. I’m not putting you down, just letting you know that you might get your point across if you tried to throw in a few other words in now and then.

 

Your supercilious affect is simultaneously galling, enlivening and illuminating.

 

 

 

So, Asshole, is the above sentence descriptive enough for you and that renowned linguist, Donna?

 

(Please note the capitalization of "Asshole," since grammatical correctness necessitates use of the capital letter when addressing one by his/her proper name.)

The subtle sting of that last part is like a rapier between the ribs. She just got smacked a lot harder than she'll probably realize for a long time.

[pitchu]

Guess I've hit the point in life when one no longer has to put up with pretentiousness.

 

And I actually rather like this point in life!

 

May Ladylips live long enough to eschew (Wow! Another descriptive word!) pretentiousness in herself.

[Antlerman]

The problem with this question Sonya is that it assumes God is real. In asking someone if they're going to give their child a choice to choose whether they are going to believe in Jesus, you are assuming in your mind it’s a valid choice. It’s not a valid choice for everyone. It's no different than me asking if you are going to send your children to a Mosque and let them choose whether or not to follow Mohammad and Allah. They’re children and need to grow up first before being exposed to these sorts of things. Would you send your kids with a Hare Krishna relative to a Hindu temple to give them a choice about the Lord Krishna?

 

One doesn't have to believe any of these gods, including Jesus, are evil to not want to send your kids into every temple under the sun. To me it seems better to teach them at home about other beliefs, and when they're emotionally ready and are interested themselves to go see adults in the act of worshipping sky gods, then they can go (chaperoned of course for their own protection) to experience this face of culture. To me it's a good thing for them to experience from an anthropological point of view.

 

I'm curious; would you take you children to a Buddhist temple if they told you today they wanted to go? Would you say no? I would really like to hear your thoughts on this.

Those are good thoughts and questions. I’ve worked in children and youth ministry for 20+ years. Just from my experience working in church, most children are saved by the age of 12. The older they get, if they have not accepted Christ, the least likely it is that they will make a decision.

Do you see a problem with this? It sounds like you're saying you need to get a child fully indoctrinated (not converted) by the age of 12 or the chances are they won't adopt the belief as adults! I say ‘indoctrinated’ because a child under the age of 12 is not making a mature choice about something as personal as religious faith. They have laws surrounding how old a child must be before getting married. Why is that do you suppose? Then how come it doesn't apply when it comes to a child "deciding" to marry Jesus? Is it because Jesus is a “safe” husband for them? Really, it’s not about Jesus, it’s about making life commitments when you’re a child!

 

What is this about Churches? Go ahead and teach them about your beliefs, like you would about growing up and having babies and starting a family and all that, then when they’re old enough to make a mature decision about getting married, that’s when they can make a decision to convert to a religion or not. Set the age at least 18. Do you see any problem with this?

 

Really all this getting kids converted before 12 sounds like an unconscious admission that the beliefs can't stand on their own in the world of ideas, and you have to resort to the indoctrination of children to get converts.

I always go back to Jesus saying unless you come to Him “as a little child” you will not see the kingdom of heaven. I know that scripture means more than ‘only children can be saved’, but it is true that children are open to listen to God.

Let’s talk about that. What’s true is that children are open to trusting adults. They are also open to their imaginations being unencumbered by the complexities of life and free to indulge in satisfying fantasies. I was open to belief in Santa Clause. You’re saying their more open to listen to God. They’re not “listening to God” per se. They’re receptive of ideas about Him being told them from adults. I say the “listening about God” is identical to the child who is receptive to being told about Santa Clause. No difference.

I always hate it for the children’s sake when I see a family who does not go to church, because I feel like they aren’t giving that child the basic opportunity to learn and to come to know God.

 

I may be rambling but I don’t mean to. I think what I’m getting at is saying “Wait until they grow up and decide for themselves” I has never made sense for me, because by the time they grow up, statistically it will be too late for them to make a decision for Christ and they’ll end up “playing church” and never come to the saving knowledge of Christ.

Here you go. Read my first couple paragraphs again after this. It’s not a heart conversion as an adult, nor is it a heart commitment as a child who was indoctrinated into it. You might as well say arranged marriages between an eight year old and an adult man will be the only way there will be a chance that she will love him when she’s an adult. You don’t see anything inherently wrong with this?

 

Again, it sounds like you know that Christianity can’t compete in the world of ideas. I can see this in Christianity all the time, and in a way it’s refreshing to hear an open admission of this, even though you may have difficulty seeing what you’re actually saying here.

 

This may be a dumb example, but in our house, you are born a Dallas Cowboy fan.

That’s just the way it is. My husband started teaching our sons about football when they were tiny boys, and they watched games together before they could sit up alone. We didn’t wait until they were of a certain age and said “Ok, honey, today is the day you decide which football team you like.” If one of our boys would have decided to pick another team, we wouldn’t have disowned him, but they both knew what they had learned from us which team was “our team”.

 

Another, probably better example is that we don’t let them wait until they are 12 or 14 or 18 to decide for themselves if they’d like to brush their teeth or go to school. We lead them in the right direction until they are ready to make informed decisions on their own.

No one is suggesting you can’t teach your children the traditions and values of your family. Of course not. But back to what I said before, having them make a “conversion” commitment to a religious faith at 10 years old sounds pretty underhanded to me. Even if it’s your own kid, to me it’s tantamount to making a choice to get married. Unless you see it as something more “social” than personal??

 

So, if at one time you thought Christianity was a valid choice, but after on you rejected it, do you give your kids that choice to make, or do you make it for them. Sure, when they grown up they can do what they want, but we all know how that will turn out.

Sonya, you sound pessimistic here. Sincerely, respectfully, what I’m hearing behind your belief that they won’t accept your beliefs is some serious doubt of your own showing through the cracks here.

 

Listen to what you just said.

 

Is it that Christianity is more an identity for you and you’re afraid of loosing that connection with your children? You know, I love my mother and am supportive of her in her beliefs about God, even though I don’t share them. I respect her sincerity as a person. It’s about my relationship with her, not about my relationship with her through a common belief system.

 

To answer your questions, my husband would have a COW (no pun intended) I any of us went anywhere near a Mosque or a Buddhist temple! He doesn’t really like it when our oldest visited church with his Methodist friend! But because I believe Hindu and Buddhism are false religions, we would not allow our children, as long as they are under 18, to go to their services, (We are okay with the Methodists though.)

Footnote: They need to be 18 to be exposed to alternative choices, but 12 is OK to make a life commitment choice having only the information told them from their parents who won’t let them look at other options until they’re 18?

 

The simple fix is to not allow them to make a decision of conversion until they have looked at all options available for themselves as adults. Just like choosing a mate for marriage.

 

But if I had grown up in one of those faiths and then left it - if I had ever thought it was valid but had changed my mind through a process that led me to rejected belief in the teachings, then I’d probably have to rethink that. So that’s why I was curious.

I can see the point you’re making to a small degree. It is afterall the religion of your family and culture and exposure to that has some small value. However, a parent will naturally raise the child with the values they have, and if they no longer believe that faith has value, then it would be nonsensical to send their child there to be taught things you don’t believe in. Teach them about these things, yes. But send them to others to be indoctrinated? That wouldn’t make sense.

[HuaiDan]

Sonya, do you realize most of us reserve the same sympathy for you we would reserve for an HIV infected crack-addicted prostitute? We realize you're a product of your upbringing and environment, and we'll do our best to help you, but for the love of humanity stop trying to infect others with your addiction and disease!

 

IOW, stop preaching, and start listening. How could play the children card? Are you genuinely concerned or just a sleazy con? If the former, a heartfelt thanks but no thanks. If the latter, a hearty fuck you. My guess is that you can't tell the difference. If god wanted our children to be religious, he would've created them that way. Sure, I'll give mine the choice when I have mine, but by the time they make that choice it'll be a no-brainer because of the way I will raise them.

 

 

And FYI, in its purest essence, buddhism is not a religion, it's a philosophy. People turned it into a religion, because faith, not rationale, is what the uneducated understand.

[HuaiDan]

Damn this peeves me! telling us how to raise our children? How dare you! If I could only reach through the screen and bitch-slap you!

 

 

most children are saved by the age of 12.

 

Yeah, that should read most children are brainwashed by the age of 12. Girl, you are infected blind.

[Ouroboros]

Those are good thoughts and questions. I’ve worked in children and youth ministry for 20+ years. Just from my experience working in church, most children are saved by the age of 12. The older they get, if they have not accepted Christ, the least likely it is that they will make a decision. I always go back to Jesus saying unless you come to Him “as a little child” you will not see the kingdom of heaven. I know that scripture means more than ‘only children can be saved’, but it is true that children are open to listen to God. I always hate it for the children’s sake when I see a family who does not go to church, because I feel like they aren’t giving that child the basic opportunity to learn and to come to know God. I may be rambling but I don’t mean to. I think what I’m getting at is saying “Wait until they grow up and decide for themselves” I has never made sense for me, because by the time they grow up, statistically it will be too late for them to make a decision for Christ and they’ll end up “playing church” and never come to the saving knowledge of Christ.

 

Then, I started thinking about the situations of people like Hans - people who grew up in the church and later rejected it, and it made me wonder how they would handle it with their kids. Would they forbid church or allow them to go. How would they tell them about it?

Well, you see the problem is, if you really think about it seriously, do you forbid your kids to go to a Mosque, or a Buddhist Temple, or a Pagan Moon Watch? Let's say you are the one who's wrong and your religion is false, but one of these others are the real and true one, now you are the person who stopped them from knowing the truth and the lies keeps on spreading through Christian brainwashing.

 

I do let my kids find their path. And I'm not worried, because I trust their instincts and rational minds, since the only thing I really teach them hard is to think. It's very unfortunate the most Christians don't use their brains. They willingly stupify themselves just so they can stay in the cult.

 

This may be a dumb example, but in our house, you are born a Dallas Cowboy fan. That’s just the way it is. My husband started teaching our sons about football when they were tiny boys, and they watched games together before they could sit up alone. We didn’t wait until they were of a certain age and said “Ok, honey, today is the day you decide which football team you like.” If one of our boys would have decided to pick another team, we wouldn’t have disowned him, but they both knew what they had learned from us which team was “our team”.

And isn't it funny that your husband probably spent a thousand times more teaching your kids about football, then he ever talked to them about religion, faith, Bible and interpretations. There was some study some years ago that showed that people spend more time figuring out which car to buy, than they spend trying to figure out which religion to believe.

 

And here's another thing, your kids believe in Jesus because you forced them to. Do you really consider that a true conversion, when someone is made into a believer against their own ability to reason and think?

 

A kid is easy to manipulate and control, and what I can see from your post here is that you have used the feeble mind of a child against themselves and made them into believers instead of letting them make up their own minds. Shame on you! This is something I'd like to call "mind rape". You have raped the child of its own right to choose by forcing them to believe. Do you really think God will take them into heaven because they behave like Christians but they never really used their free will? Where is that argument about free will here? Why do you force them if free will is the key? Religion is definitely evil.

 

Another, probably better example is that we don’t let them wait until they are 12 or 14 or 18 to decide for themselves if they’d like to brush their teeth or go to school. We lead them in the right direction until they are ready to make informed decisions on their own.

 

So, if at one time you thought Christianity was a valid choice, but after on you rejected it, do you give your kids that choice to make, or do you make it for them. Sure, when they grown up they can do what they want, but we all know how that will turn out.

Here's the dilemma: you are not giving your kids the choice at all. You're taking them to church every week, you indoctrinate them with your theology, you force them to read your Holy Book, and do you seriously spend as much time at other religious places and teach your kids enough so they can make a choice? No, you don't. You brainwash them to a point that before they are old enough to make a choice, they're already programmed. Then you have the audacity to question if we are open minded to our kids and let them make up their own minds? Talk about hypocricy!

 

To answer your questions, my husband would have a COW (no pun intended) I any of us went anywhere near a Mosque or a Buddhist temple! He doesn’t really like it when our oldest visited church with his Methodist friend! But because I believe Hindu and Buddhism are false religions, we would not allow our children, as long as they are under 18, to go to their services, (We are okay with the Methodists though.) But if I had grown up in one of those faiths and then left it - if I had ever thought it was valid but had changed my mind through a process that led me to rejected belief in the teachings, then I’d probably have to rethink that. So that’s why I was curious.

You see. You indoctrinate your kids to hate other religions. You force them to follow your religion. And you claim they believe out of free will? SHAME ON YOU! You're absuing and raping your kids and making them robots and you think they'll go to Heaven that way. *Gah* All that stupidity in this world!

[white_raven23]

Here’s a side comment, which you will more than likely not appreciate. My very intelligent friend, my ‘dead body buddy’ Donna, told me a long time ago that people who use foul language all the time have a lazy vocabulary because they won’t go to the trouble to use better descriptive words. Just thought I’d throw that in there. I’m not putting you down, just letting you know that you might get your point across if you tried to throw in a few other words in now and then.

 

 

Then you and your 'dead body friend' (glad you have a couple BTW) are perfectly free to not swear around each other. Dandy for you.

 

But we don't cater to language police, fashion police, or especially religion police of any stripe here. If someone wishes to express themselves with the words: gangrenousmotherfuckingmooseballs, so be it. We do not make assumptions of people's intelligence based on the swear words they choose to use.

 

People who do make language an issue seem to suffer from craniorectal inversion anyway.

[pitchu]

But we don't cater to language police...

Thanks, WR.

 

When she flashed her badge at me it made me reflect that I've been remiss in not swearing up to the full extent of my fuckilicious capabilities.

[Antlerman]

I never fucking swear or lie for that matter, goddamnit.

[Vigile]

I never fucking swear or lie for that matter, goddamnit.

 

Fuckin' A dude! And it's painfully clear to everyone, especially Sonya with a "y," that your vocabulary (or should I say 'cab) is seriously underdeveloped; atrophied due to a lack of god-juice in your life it has. БОЖА МОЙ man!

 

[i used the little sheep thingy 'cause I be off the god juice even longer than you and find it difficult to string two words together and have them make sense.]

 

What the fuck is a dead body friend anyway? Sound's kinda Alice Cooperish.

[white_raven23]

What the fuck is a dead body friend anyway? Sound's kinda Alice Cooperish.

 

 

It's a friend you are so tight with, you can count on them to help you hide a body....no questions asked....and never breathe a word about it to anyone ever.

[Dhampir]

Here’s a side comment, which you will more than likely not appreciate. My very intelligent friend, my ‘dead body buddy’ Donna, told me a long time ago that people who use foul language all the time have a lazy vocabulary because they won’t go to the trouble to use better descriptive words. Just thought I’d throw that in there. I’m not putting you down, just letting you know that you might get your point across if you tried to throw in a few other words in now and then.

Y'know, if I could almost immediately reject that piece of "wisdom" from the first person that ever told me that, my father, you should have learned long ago that you're just spouting a bunch of untested (by you) platitudes.

 

BTW, Sonya has serious doubts.

[sonyaj68]

Here’s a side comment, which you will more than likely not appreciate. My very intelligent friend, my ‘dead body buddy’ Donna, told me a long time ago that people who use foul language all the time have a lazy vocabulary because they won’t go to the trouble to use better descriptive words. Just thought I’d throw that in there. I’m not putting you down, just letting you know that you might get your point across if you tried to throw in a few other words in now and then.

 

Your supercilious affect is simultaneously galling, enlivening and illuminating.

 

 

 

So, Asshole, is the above sentence descriptive enough for you and that renowned linguist, Donna?

 

(Please note the capitalization of "Asshole," since grammatical correctness necessitates use of the capital letter when addressing one by his/her proper name.)

 

Much better!!!!

[sonyaj68]

I don’t really care so much about the cursing - I think what really hurt my feelings was that pitchu thought I was picking on Hans by bringing up children. I’m certainly not the speech police. With all my typos…I even posted “Nark†when I meant “Mark†the other day…how embarrassing….I have no room to play “grammar Nazi†to anyone.

 

My question to Hans was one out of real curiosity. I know how we raise our children, why we raise them that way, and I was very curious how someone who had at one time had a faith in God but then stopped believing would ‘handle’ (for lack of a better term) that with their children. It is obvious that Hans is a wonderful parent and that his children are very fortunate to have Hans and Mrs. Hans for parents. I won’t answer your “accusations†about my parenting skills because frankly, you have no idea - my children are awesome, I‘m a wonderful mom, my husband is the best dad ever, and you are just completely wrong, but what difference does it make?!

 

I have realized and acknowledged that I am not going to change the mind of Hans (or anyone else on this website), and I don’t mean to come across as being judgmental. I once offered to stop posting because I was wasting his time, and he told me it was okay. (I don’t remember if it was this thread or another. I live in the “sticks†and all we can get is dial up and it would take me way too long to go back and find it.) However, I must admit that the information I am seeking is for my own curiosity at this point and also because I find you interesting.

 

I do not have doubts about my Christianity. Nothing you can say will make me question my faith in Christ. I am not a “troll†and I am not making up things or trying to insult you. I do care about you, but I realize that this is a place where you come for support and that my questions for my own information are causing many to be very offended. I don’t want to cause further damage. I know this means nothing to you, but I will remember you all in my prayers!

[Taphophilia]

Sonya,

 

I have been reading through this thread. I do understand that you are not like the other Christians who come here. For one thing, I understand that you are not trying to convert us back and that you are extremely curious about us. How could we once be believing and sincere Christians and we no longer are. I understand this. I would also like to thank you for your honesty. You have never once accused us of never being Christians in the first place. Most Christians who come here do so.

One thing you have to understand is that we are not used to dealing with Christians like you. We are used to having to defend ourselves. So, your posts are sometimes taken that way, when I understand that isn't your intent.

I would also like to commend you, as it isn't always easy for a Christian to deal with us. However, you have shown much character, which is something we respect. You have earned my respect.

Although, we may disagree on religious beliefs, I do believe that you are a wonderful friend, mother and all around human being.

 

Taph

[Guest Angel Face]

As a follow up to the "Why do you remain a Christian?" thread, I'd like to ask another question of believers....

 

What, if anything, would it take to change your mind and make you a non-believer? I am hoping to get serious responses from people who have thought about why they believe what they believe, and who have considered what evidence, realizations, etc, would cause you to decide that the claims of Christianity are most likely false.

 

My answer is simple. If it can be proven that Christ did not exist, I would no longer believe.

[Dhampir]

If it can be proven that Christ did not exist

Why is that so important? You could prove tomorrow that he did exist, and that would not constitute good reason to believe the bible. Whether he existed or not says nothing about whether he was born of a virgin, or brought people from the dead or rose from the dead himself.

[HuaiDan]

As a follow up to the "Why do you remain a Christian?" thread, I'd like to ask another question of believers....

 

What, if anything, would it take to change your mind and make you a non-believer? I am hoping to get serious responses from people who have thought about why they believe what they believe, and who have considered what evidence, realizations, etc, would cause you to decide that the claims of Christianity are most likely false.

 

My answer is simple. If it can be proven that Christ did not exist, I would no longer believe.

And if can be proven that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist, then I will no longer believe.

 

May I ask you an honest question? By making this statement, are you implying that if it can't be proven that christ did not exist, that you will continue to believe?

[Taphophilia]

My answer is simple. If it can be proven that Christ did not exist, I would no longer believe.

 

Hi Angel Face and welcome to Ex-C.

 

This may come as quite a surprise to you, if all you know about Jesus comes from what you've learned in church or been taught by other Christians. There is no historical evidence outside the Bible or Christianity that Jesus ever existed. It's one of the main reasons I'm not a Christian any longer. The other reason is that Christianity is a conceptual model of ancient pagan faiths at that time.

[Ouroboros]

My answer is simple. If it can be proven that Christ did not exist, I would no longer believe.

Why?

 

Do you need us to prove that Santa Clause doesn't exist before you stop believing that he doesn't?

 

Shouldn't you ask yourself why you even believe in a fictional character first?

 

There are millions of made up gods and supermans of different kinds, and you don't believe in any of those, why this one?

[Guest Angel Face]

Well no, Santa Claus is obviously a fictional character. Jesus Christ was a man who many believed was God, and even died for that belief. I believe there is evidence for His existence. I mean the Bible is not one book by one author, it is a series of books written by many different people at different times. Seems unlikely they all conspired together and then sacrificed their lives for a big hoax.

[Ouroboros]

I see. Did Paul see Jesus in real life?

 

What about Mohammeds visions and meetings with the angel, many believe that too, is it also true?

[Guest Angel Face]

My answer is simple. If it can be proven that Christ did not exist, I would no longer believe.

 

Hi Angel Face and welcome to Ex-C.

 

This may come as quite a surprise to you, if all you know about Jesus comes from what you've learned in church or been taught by other Christians. There is no historical evidence outside the Bible or Christianity that Jesus ever existed. It's one of the main reasons I'm not a Christian any longer. The other reason is that Christianity is a conceptual model of ancient pagan faiths at that time.

 

I recently heard this, and evidence for this is one thing I'm looking for.

[Guest Angel Face]

I see. Did Paul see Jesus in real life?

 

What about Mohammeds visions and meetings with the angel, many believe that too, is it also true?

 

Is there a reason you seem mad, or is this the general atmosphere around here?

Well I'm sure you already know about Paul's encounter with Christ. I think his account is more believable because of the gospels that back up his story. And those were written by those who knew Jesus or walked closely with those who walked closely with Him.

[pitchu]

I think what really hurt my feelings was that pitchu thought I was picking on Hans by bringing up children.

Wrong again, Thought Police.

 

"Picking on" is in no way descriptive of what I thought you were doing. Cavalierly blundering your way into someone's private life, of which you know nothing, without so much courtesy as to preface that inquiry with some sort of an acknowledgment that you understand it might be too sensitive or too intimate, or none of your business, or whatever... that is what I thought you were doing.

 

The sentence you did use as preface:

 

Hans, I have a question for you and it is asked with sincerety. What about your children?

 

...seemed to me to be in the Christian mode of knowing one is about to be intrusive, but if one professes that s/he is sincere ... well, then, everything's sunshine and rainbows; no-harm-no-foul. In my experience, this kind of Christian "professing of sincerity" is used not to address the reality of the other person's possible reticence upon being confronted, but to cover the Christian's ass before she blindsides her target.

 

When Hans said it was okay, I backed off, because his choice to have an exchange with you was more important than my pursuing what was, in my view, your incautious approach to interrogation. So now you have the sum total of my actual thoughts upon reading your post, as opposed to what you claim I thought.