What Would Make You A Non-believer?

[HuaiDan]

And my question just get ignored

[pitchu]

And my question just get ignored

Re-post in bold, HD. (And throw in a few swear words this time -- that seems to get attention. )

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

As a follow up to the "Why do you remain a Christian?" thread, I'd like to ask another question of believers....

 

What, if anything, would it take to change your mind and make you a non-believer? I am hoping to get serious responses from people who have thought about why they believe what they believe, and who have considered what evidence, realizations, etc, would cause you to decide that the claims of Christianity are most likely false.

 

My answer is simple. If it can be proven that Christ did not exist, I would no longer believe.

Thank you Angel Face for your response (and welcome to the site).

 

It's impossible to prove that someone didn't exist, so I think you're on pretty safe ground!

 

However, I wornder if it's really more than that. For example, we know with more certainty that Joseph Smith who founded the Morman religion existed, and we know with more historical backing that Mohammed (of Muslim fame) existed. Their existence isn't enough to make you follow their religions.

 

If it's conceded that Jesus did exist as a person on the earth is there nothing else that could change your belief? I'll ask you the same question I asked Sonya: Assume for a moment that you are wrong and there is no god. How would you be able to detect that situation?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

... I’ve worked in children and youth ministry for 20+ years. Just from my experience working in church, most children are saved by the age of 12. The older they get, if they have not accepted Christ, the least likely it is that they will make a decision.

Sonya,

 

If you take a step back and look at what you've said it should raise some red flags.

 

The people who are most likely to accept Jesus as their personal savior are those who have not fully developed their ability to reason and make adult choices. They are the same folks who are most likely to believe that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny exist. Their faculties for distinguishing reality from fantasy aren't functioning at full capacity.

 

That's the reason they are not allowed to enter into contracts or vote or marry or drink or drive or serve in political office or walk to the store on their own.

 

What does it say about a belief system when the vast majority of adherents signed on as young children (who have been told that eternal hell awaits those who don't sign up) as opposed to rational adults?

[Thackerie]

My answer is simple. If it can be proven that Christ did not exist, I would no longer believe.

 

Hi Angel Face and welcome to Ex-C.

 

This may come as quite a surprise to you, if all you know about Jesus comes from what you've learned in church or been taught by other Christians. There is no historical evidence outside the Bible or Christianity that Jesus ever existed. It's one of the main reasons I'm not a Christian any longer. The other reason is that Christianity is a conceptual model of ancient pagan faiths at that time.

 

I recently heard this, and evidence for this is one thing I'm looking for.

 

A true believer searching for evidence is a rarity indeed. If you are honestly searching and willing to consider scholarship that contradicts what you've been taught by christianity, the following website is a good place to start:

 

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

 

I hope you'll come back after you have had the opportunity to read and think about some of the information there and tell us what you think.

[Ouroboros]

I see. Did Paul see Jesus in real life?

 

What about Mohammeds visions and meetings with the angel, many believe that too, is it also true?

 

Is there a reason you seem mad, or is this the general atmosphere around here?

Well I'm sure you already know about Paul's encounter with Christ. I think his account is more believable because of the gospels that back up his story. And those were written by those who knew Jesus or walked closely with those who walked closely with Him.

Not at all. I'm not mad. I was just being very short because I'm doing so many other things so sometimes I just don't have enough time to argue my point. Right now I'm more curious about what you think, and why.

 

You said it is obvious that Santa Clause is not real. Why? There's no more evidence for Jesus then there is for Santa Clause.

 

Muhammad had visions and was visited by an angel and there are 2 billion people who believe this, does this make it true?

 

For your information, Paul himself admits that he never saw Jesus in person but only in visions. How do you know that it wasn't induced by some hallucinogenic drug or epileptic seizure?

 

You also said there are so many books in the bible and many authors, but you do realize that a majority of them do not talk about Jesus. The large portion of them talk about Jewish beliefs and you're not a Jew. I think Judaism was hijacked by Christianity. The Old Testament did not make prophesies about Jesus, but the Gospels were written to fit on top of the Old Testament stories to make it look like fulfillment of prophesies. A very clever trick.

 

The Gospels were written many, many years after the deaths of the last apostels, so they are not recollections of eyewitnesses at all. Besides who would write an eyewitness account and talk about themself in third person? You see Hans is writing to you that he thinks that it is all bullcrap, and he also is telling you that writing in third person as an eyewitness is a very strange way of telling your story and it is very indicative to a third person authorship rather than eyewitness account.

[Antlerman]

Well I'm sure you already know about Paul's encounter with Christ. I think his account is more believable because of the gospels that back up his story. And those were written by those who knew Jesus or walked closely with those who walked closely with Him.

Just a few thoughts for consideration of this. The gospels were written after Paul's visionary experiences. So it's quite easy to argue that a story created after the fact is not a corroboration, but an elaboration. Mark is the first Gospel document that is used by Matthew and Luke to build their futher devolped plot lines on top of. None of these were truely eyewitness accounts as Mark himself at best a disciple of Peter according to tradition and makes many references that are evidence of his lack of first hand knowledge:

 

John P. Meier provides an example in which the author of Mark shows himself to be dependent on oral tradition. The story of the feeding of the multitude is found twice in Mark and once in John. Meier writes (A Marginal Jew, v. 2, pp. 965-6): "This suggests a long and complicated tradition history reaching back to the early days of the first Christian generation. Prior to Mark's Gospel there seems to have been two cycles of traditions about Jesus' ministry in Galilee, each one beginning with one version of the feeding miracle (Mk 6:32-44 and Mk 8:1-10). Before these cycles were created, the two versions of the feeding would have circulated as independent units, the first version attracting to itself the story of Jesus' walking on the water (a development also witnessed in John 6), while the second version did not receive such an elaboration. Behind all three versions of the miracle story would have stood some primitive form."

 

The author of the Gospel of Mark does indeed seem to lack first-hand knowledge of the geography of Palestine. Randel Helms writes concerning Mark 11:1 (Who Wrote the Gospels?, p. 6): "Anyone approaching Jerusalem from Jericho would come first to Bethany and then Bethphage, not the reverse. This is one of several passages showing that Mark knew little about Palestine; we must assume, Dennis Nineham argues, that 'Mark did not know the relative positions of these two villages on the Jericho road' (1963, 294-295). Indeed, Mark knew so little about the area that he described Jesus going from Tyrian territory 'by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee through the territory of the Ten Towns' (Mark 7:31); this is similar to saying that one goes from London to Paris by way of Edinburgh and Rome. The simplist solution, says Nineham, is that 'the evangelist was not directly acquainted with Palestine' (40)."

 

From here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html

 

Refer to here to read up on the other Gospels and the other early christian writings that didn't make the editor's cuts during the early church council meetings in the 4th Century: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/alphabetical.html

 

I think you'll find that there's a lot more behind the story that what's put out there for general consumption in the churchs.

[Taphophilia]

You said it is obvious that Santa Clause is not real. Why? There's no more evidence for Jesus then there is for Santa Clause.

 

Hans, I hate to break it to you, but this isn't true. There is a lot more evidence that Santa Clause existed, well, St. Nicolas, than Jesus.

[Ouroboros]

You said it is obvious that Santa Clause is not real. Why? There's no more evidence for Jesus then there is for Santa Clause.

 

Hans, I hate to break it to you, but this isn't true. There is a lot more evidence that Santa Clause existed, well, St. Nicolas, than Jesus.

Oh noos! And I've been so angry at him and rejected Holy Santa Clause for so long and now I hear that he's real!? I have to repent immediately! (And it explains those strange pieces of coal I find on the doorstep every Christmas...)

[Taphophilia]

You said it is obvious that Santa Clause is not real. Why? There's no more evidence for Jesus then there is for Santa Clause.

 

Hans, I hate to break it to you, but this isn't true. There is a lot more evidence that Santa Clause existed, well, St. Nicolas, than Jesus.

Oh noos! And I've been so angry at him and rejected Holy Santa Clause for so long and now I hear that he's real!? I have to repent immediately! (And it explains those strange pieces of coal I find on the doorstep every Christmas...)

 

Perhaps, it's not coal. In his goodness, he could be leaving you fossils.

[white_raven23]

My answer is simple. If it can be proven that Christ did not exist, I would no longer believe.

 

Hi Angel Face and welcome to Ex-C.

 

This may come as quite a surprise to you, if all you know about Jesus comes from what you've learned in church or been taught by other Christians. There is no historical evidence outside the Bible or Christianity that Jesus ever existed. It's one of the main reasons I'm not a Christian any longer. The other reason is that Christianity is a conceptual model of ancient pagan faiths at that time.

 

I recently heard this, and evidence for this is one thing I'm looking for.

 

A true believer searching for evidence is a rarity indeed. If you are honestly searching and willing to consider scholarship that contradicts what you've been taught by christianity, the following website is a good place to start:

 

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

 

I hope you'll come back after you have had the opportunity to read and think about some of the information there and tell us what you think.

 

 

Hey Angel Face.... I have found often people have more intellectual respect for the printed word, and tend towards distrusting internet websites. Do you fall into this category? If so, here are some other resources you may find of interest.

http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Origins-Profo...0133417-7994550

http://www.amazon.com/Womens-Encyclopedia-...2168&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Puzzle-Christi...0133417-7994550

http://www.amazon.com/Year-1000-What-First...2427&sr=1-7

[sonyaj68]

... I’ve worked in children and youth ministry for 20+ years. Just from my experience working in church, most children are saved by the age of 12. The older they get, if they have not accepted Christ, the least likely it is that they will make a decision.

Sonya,

 

If you take a step back and look at what you've said it should raise some red flags.

 

The people who are most likely to accept Jesus as their personal savior are those who have not fully developed their ability to reason and make adult choices. They are the same folks who are most likely to believe that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny exist. Their faculties for distinguishing reality from fantasy aren't functioning at full capacity.

 

That's the reason they are not allowed to enter into contracts or vote or marry or drink or drive or serve in political office or walk to the store on their own.

 

What does it say about a belief system when the vast majority of adherents signed on as young children (who have been told that eternal hell awaits those who don't sign up) as opposed to rational adults?

 

I will refer you to my last post:

 

My question to Hans was one out of real curiosity. I know how we raise our children, why we raise them that way, and I was very curious how someone who had at one time had a faith in God but then stopped believing would ‘handle’ (for lack of a better term) that with their children. It is obvious that Hans is a wonderful parent and that his children are very fortunate to have Hans and Mrs. Hans for parents. I won’t answer your “accusations†about my parenting skills because frankly, you have no idea - my children are awesome, I‘m a wonderful mom, my husband is the best dad ever, and you are just completely wrong, but what difference does it make?!

 

I have realized and acknowledged that I am not going to change the mind of Hans (or anyone else on this website), and I don’t mean to come across as being judgmental. I once offered to stop posting because I was wasting his time, and he told me it was okay. (I don’t remember if it was this thread or another. I live in the “sticks†and all we can get is dial up and it would take me way too long to go back and find it.) However, I must admit that the information I am seeking is for my own curiosity at this point and also because I find you interesting.

 

I do not have doubts about my Christianity. Nothing you can say will make me question my faith in Christ. I am not a “troll†and I am not making up things or trying to insult you. I do care about you, but I realize that this is a place where you come for support and that my questions for my own information are causing many to be very offended. I don’t want to cause further damage. I know this means nothing to you, but I will remember you all in my prayers!

 

Again, I do not care to answer questions about the way I raise my children, but since Hans was so kind to share with me, I will say that you must remember that I believe that trusting in Christ as savor is the only way to eternal life in heaven. I believe the scriptures that tell us to train our children while they are young so that 'when they are old they will not depart from it'. Not telling my children about Christ and not raising them in church would be the same to me as not teaching your children to look both ways to cross the street. It would be the literal same thing as knowing they were headed down a road that dropped off into a huge hole and me not stopping them. That's how I feel about it We don't feel that we've scared our children at all. Our children are well-adjusted, self-sufficient people. They are the kind of kids that you'd love your children to be friends with, and I'm sure I'd feel the same way about your children. They have friends from all walks of life. My belief system teaches that trusting Christ as savior is more important that anything else you do - from getting a drivers license, to turning 21 and being old enough to be considered an adult or get married - so simple even a child can do it - but so important that the Son of God had to die for it. I don't expect you to apologize for your belief system, but I won't apologize for mine.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Sonya, I don't expect you to apologize for your beliefs - I have no doubt you honestly believe what you say you do.

 

However, I don't agree that raising up children to believe in something that can't be proven is as healthy as bringing up a child to think critically and to be questioning about all things, including religion. If your beliefs are the truth and your god truly wants people to find him it seems that there would be no issue in bringing up children to question instead of indoctrinating them in your beliefs in the hope that when they become adults they won't depart. If what you believe is the truth people raised with the tools to seek the truth will find it.

 

Do you see the difference?

[sonyaj68]

Sonya, I don't expect you to apologize for your beliefs - I have no doubt you honestly believe what you say you do.

 

However, I don't agree that raising up children to believe in something that can't be proven is as healthy as bringing up a child to think critically and to be questioning about all things, including religion. If your beliefs are the truth and your god truly wants people to find him it seems that there would be no issue in bringing up children to question instead of indoctrinating them in your beliefs in the hope that when they become adults they won't depart. If what you believe is the truth people raised with the tools to seek the truth will find it.

 

Do you see the difference?

Ah, but the real difference is that I believe that God is the only way, the one true way, and that He can be proven. I believe that it is a matter of life and death for people to choose Him. If you have children, and if you believed that there was something that they needed to do that would make a life-changing difference in their life, you would make sure they were constantly exposed to things that made that life changing experience available. I believe it would be horrible of me as a parent to do anything other than to do as the Bible commands and that is to raise my children in the ways of Christ. That's the choice WE make. I realize other people make other choices, and that's their choice with their children. I have found that parents who do not raise their children learning about Christ will find that their children usually do not accept Christ as adults. For your "cause", this is good. For my "cause", this is a tragedy. The Bible says that two people cannot walk together unless they are agreed. We can't come to an agreement on this matter because we have two dierent ways of thinking on this matter. I believe in God.

[Antlerman]

I have found that parents who do not raise their children learning about Christ will find that their children usually do not accept Christ as adults.

And this should tell you everything you need to understand about the truth of religion. You completely ignored everything I addressed in my other long post to you.

 

So you don't miss it again: Why can't Christianity appeal to people on it's own without indoctrinating them as children?

 

Clearly this is proof positive that it a cultural meme and not some universal truth that surpasses all others. You think adults don't care to find meaning in their lives? Honestly, please answer this for me.

[sonyaj68]

I have found that parents who do not raise their children learning about Christ will find that their children usually do not accept Christ as adults.

And this should tell you everything you need to understand about the truth of religion. You completely ignored everything I addressed in my other long post to you.

 

So you don't miss it again: Why can't Christianity appeal to people on it's own without indoctrinating them as children?

 

Clearly this is proof positive that it a cultural meme and not some universal truth that surpasses all others. You think adults don't care to find meaning in their lives? Honestly, please answer this for me.

I apologize for ignoring you, I was overwhelmed and was trying to answer everyone with my one post.

 

"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Christianity is not limited to children. I have seen aduts saved. In fact, I was saved as an adult as was my husband. I was talking about my children in particular, and the fact that children are easier to reach for God because they are more innocent and open and haven't been hardened by the world. We don't consider it that we are forcing Christ on them at a young age. We believe that everyone needs the Lord, they need Him as soon as they realize they are a sinner, and we feel it is the most important decision they can make and it should be taught by parents as well as church teachers and other leaders from an early age. Again, we have opposite viewpoints which is why we can't and won't ever agree on it. You believe we are indoctrinating them into our cult, and we believe we are following Christ's example and His command that we teach them when they are young.

 

Of course adults find meaning in their lives. Praise the Lord for an adult who realizes their lost condition and accepts Christ. Unfortunately, many times adults are too proud to humble themselves to admit they need a savior, and the older they get, the less of a chance there is that they wil accept Christ. Fortunateloy, all things are possible with Him.

[Dhampir]

QUOTE(sonyaj68 @ Oct 9 2007, 09:45 PM) *

I have found that parents who do not raise their children learning about Christ will find that their children usually do not accept Christ as adults.

Like I said: Doubting...

[dr_funkenstein]

Our children are well-adjusted, self-sufficient people...

Except for the fact that they believe in a delusion thrust upon them by their parents through fear. Of course, you can't be blamed - you had that message drummed into you out of fear too and no doubt your own delusion causes you to fear for your children. Isn't it interesting how child abuse tends to repeat down the generations?

 

It's also interesting how The Christianity Meme has evolved to take full advantage of young minds while they're still open to suggestion from authority figures and are just as likely to believe in God as they are in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and all manner of made up tales.

 

The Christianity Meme really behaves like a parasite when you think about it. The worst kind of parasite - one that allows its host to continue living in blissful ignorance of the suffering it is going through and the better life that can be experienced if the host rids itself of the parasite.

[Ouroboros]

Again, I do not care to answer questions about the way I raise my children, but since Hans was so kind to share with me, I will say that you must remember that I believe that trusting in Christ as savor is the only way to eternal life in heaven. I believe the scriptures that tell us to train our children while they are young so that 'when they are old they will not depart from it'. Not telling my children about Christ and not raising them in church would be the same to me as not teaching your children to look both ways to cross the street. It would be the literal same thing as knowing they were headed down a road that dropped off into a huge hole and me not stopping them. That's how I feel about it We don't feel that we've scared our children at all. Our children are well-adjusted, self-sufficient people. They are the kind of kids that you'd love your children to be friends with, and I'm sure I'd feel the same way about your children. They have friends from all walks of life. My belief system teaches that trusting Christ as savior is more important that anything else you do - from getting a drivers license, to turning 21 and being old enough to be considered an adult or get married - so simple even a child can do it - but so important that the Son of God had to die for it. I don't expect you to apologize for your belief system, but I won't apologize for mine.

It makes sense on the surface, but I don't think you ever considered the free will vs indoctrination. Most religious people are very oblivious to that they are indoctrinating their kids to believe, rather then give them a free option. If you make your kids believe, do they believe just because they are taught to believe or do they believe because they had all the options presented to them and they could choose?

 

The catholic church believe that if you are baptised and member of the church you will go to Heaven, that's why you baptise them as babies. But where does free will come into play when they are forced into the system?

 

Lets say you believe the world outside your house is a very dangerous place, and you lock yourself in and your kids, have you done the right thing? Do you trust your God that little that you can't trust him to take care of your kids and he will make them believe when they grow up? To me, your behavior shows that you don't trust God to do his work, but you have to do it for him and you have to save your kids and give them eternal life. Do you consider other religious people from other beliefs to do the right thing by indoctrinating their kids into their system and never let them have a chance of knowing your beliefs?

 

If belief and salvation can be forced, maybe you're thinking that it would be even a better step to take by enforcing Christianity on the whole population and make everyone Christian. That way everyone will go to Heaven... or will they not?

[pitchu]

If belief and salvation can be forced, maybe you're thinking that it would be even a better step to take by enforcing Christianity on the whole population and make everyone Christian. That way everyone will go to Heaven... or will they not?

 

I don't think Christians are capable of seeing what they're doing with their kids as indoctrination or force, Hans. Of course, the reason I'm personally repelled by cute, perfect miniature bonsai trees is that they remind me of little indoctrinated/forced kids whose spiritual limbs and roots are unrelentingly pruned, bent, focused and refocused, wired, twisted, tied and creatively mangled, so that they never will be able to reach out and grow, up to the skies.

 

Does this bit of instruction for creating bonsai sound at all familiar?

 

You will kill the plant if you do not have a large enough pot. At the same time, you want to maintain the illusion of nature and select a pot just large enough to support the tree.

[Antlerman]

Do you trust your God that little that you can't trust him to take care of your kids and he will make them believe when they grow up? To me, your behavior shows that you don't trust God to do his work, but you have to do it for him and you have to save your kids and give them eternal life.

Thank you for bring this up. I recall Sonya's first post to us on the site mentioned how she believed that it's impossible to be an EX-Christian, unknowingly citing John Calvin’s theology of "once saved always saved." Since she subscribes to that standard fare Baptist doctrine then what she is saying above is in direct conflict with that. The "you can't loose your salvation" idea is part of the whole Doctrine of Predestination. You are chosen before the beginning of time that you will be chosen for salvation. The only reason you are able to believe is because God has chosen you to believe and allows you to see the truth of the doctrines of the church.

 

In other words, if you failed to instill theological ideas into a child's mind as facts, when they become an adult they will no matter what happened in their youth still hear the voice of God and be saved!! The fact that Sonya does not believe God is capable of fulfilling his own specific will to save that specific person before He even created anything in the universe, shows:

 

1. That she is not really not believing God can talk to those he has predestined to be saved, or

2. She doesn't believe God predestines anyone and therefore all of us here in fact once were true Christians and are now true EX-Christians.

 

It's all part of Calvin's doctrine. You can't have only part of it, and not the other. Either she doesn't trust God, or she accepts we really were Christians once.

[Ouroboros]

If belief and salvation can be forced, maybe you're thinking that it would be even a better step to take by enforcing Christianity on the whole population and make everyone Christian. That way everyone will go to Heaven... or will they not?

 

I don't think Christians are capable of seeing what they're doing with their kids as indoctrination or force, Hans.

I know they don't. But I can always try to show it to them and hope they see they need to at least talk to their kids about other religions and give them information, but I don't think they even do that. But maybe it's a good thing. The more uneducated and ignorant the kids are, the easier it is to show them how much they have missed and how much they don't have any answers to. In a sense its in favor for a later de-conversion, when they realize their parents lied to them and kept them "protected" from alternative views.

[Ouroboros]

It's all part of Calvin's doctrine. You can't have only part of it, and not the other. Either she doesn't trust God, or she accepts we really were Christians once.

Is that what she thinks? My impression was that she wasn't foreign to that we were Christians once, but she's believe that we are still "Christians" in the sense that we are still saved, even though we don't believe in it. Kind of "once born, never die" concept rather than that we were never Christians to begin with. I kind of think that's cute, because it does mean I can swear and sin as much as I want and I will still go to Heaven. But I could be wrong, maybe that wasn't what she mean.

[Antlerman]

It's all part of Calvin's doctrine. You can't have only part of it, and not the other. Either she doesn't trust God, or she accepts we really were Christians once.

Is that what she thinks? My impression was that she wasn't foreign to that we were Christians once, but she's believe that we are still "Christians" in the sense that we are still saved, even though we don't believe in it. Kind of "once born, never die" concept rather than that we were never Christians to begin with. I kind of think that's cute, because it does mean I can swear and sin as much as I want and I will still go to Heaven. But I could be wrong, maybe that wasn't what she mean.

That's part of Calvinism. You can't lose your salvation, so either you never were really saved, or you still are even though you are in a state of rebellion. In strict unconditional eternal security, if we ever were true Christians we still are but are now just considered to be "out of fellowship". This doesn't make us lost, just confused in a sense. It's sort of a self-referencing loop. It's true, because if it wasn't the truth then it would be the truth which it is. We are predestined to be saved, therefore we get saved, therefore we can't loose our salvation, and therefore we haven't if we say we're not Christians now. It all works to protect the theology, but's really meaningless outside theory.

 

The interesting question I want to bring up that's part of this whole Calvinistic theology is that some people who object to the teaching cite that if a believer is eternally secure, what's the motive for him to be good then? It's a common objection. I find it absolutely beyond ironic then how these same people who counter that argument that that's not how it works, that they aren't good because of the threat of hell, then themselves turn right around and look at us who reject belief in God and dare to ask "Then what's to keep you from just going out and killing anyone?" Talk about a double standard in thinking! They don't need the threat of hell to be good, but somehow we can't be unless we're threatened by God?

[sonyaj68]

To all of you who keep answering all my wifes questions and statements;

 

here is the bottom line I do not care what you have to say, I do not care how loud you say it and much you push it on her and other people. If you do not put your trust and faith in Jesus you WILL DIE AND GO TO HELL. Now if that is what you want then do it but i not trust now and getg it overwith. These web sites are set up so people who do not beleive in God and His Son to make themselves feel better about NOT BEING SAVED AND ON THEIR WAY TO HEAVEN. You fight and gripe and talk tell you blue int he face about something you do not even understand and all that talking will do nothing but send you to HELL. So this is the last thing you will see from her because I don't fight or talk over things like this becasue I don't have to it was settled a long time ago BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!