Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Dark Matter, it has been proven? I didn't know. I barely follow science now, because I'm to occupied. But that's great. I wrote in an earlier post that the dark matter probably constituted 95% of the mass, which makes it even more craaaajzy! Then we have dark energy, which I understand is not necessarily the same as dark matter. And if they can find ways of tapping into the 9-11 dimensions... and if brane theory have any validity... we're talking about infinite matter and infinite energy. Now we're really, really, really small in the perspective of Everything! A while back I decided that my "God" is the Universe/Multiverse. It's all powerful, and all knowledge and intelligence that ever can exist in our universe, has emerged from this universe, so this universe encapsulates all knowledge and intelligence, and all future events in it must happen within it, so in a sense, it is omnipotent, omniscient and it balance energy, power, matter, time and events - in other words, it has blind justice - which makes it just and benevolent too. And of course it is also omnipresent. So today, when people talk about God, I think of the Universe. It "created" me after all. Soj, The sublime feeling you get when you see the wonders of the Universe and life. It's a transcendental feeling for sure. That is spirituality. And we can feel gratitude to life, existence and the Universe that we are alive, just as much to make up some target for our appreciation. Give the thanks to where the thanks are due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Dark Matter, it has been proven? I didn't know. I barely follow science now, because I'm to occupied. But that's great. Yes, last week they ran a show on the science channel and declared it totally proven. It was explained very well, I will have to do some digging to find the data on the web. This might be food for a new thread, it does impact the scale of things by making the already unfathonably big, even BIGGER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 It was explained very well, I will have to do some digging to find the data on the web. This might be food for a new thread, it does impact the scale of things by making the already unfathonably big, even BIGGER! God must be an American, they like everything super-sized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Thanks Hans I can see how you define 'God' or rather edited to say 'spirituality' and respect it very much I see creation and God so one that we could agree on many levels The more I study religion's the more I realize that all religion's are at the root worship or awe if you will, of creation, dont you think? sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 The more I study religion's the more I realize that all religion's are at the root worship or awe if you will, of creation, dont you think? Exactly. Or should I rather say, it is a major part. I think religious beliefs stem from different sources of the human mind. One is the awe for nature. One is the questions of life and death. Another one is the questions of how things or the world works. Yet another one is how we should live and survive in society. And so on. I think religion was the first attempt to science, philosophy and art. It is the root where it all started. It's like a big pit, where we throw anything we can't really answer. I can understand that need, to have a place like that. We put symbols and myths on these things, just because we don't have enough knowledge to explain them. But the serious problem I find is that when we finally do have the answers for the "unanswered questions", and when science do know how things work, or when philosophy is able to explain ethics, then religion lose its grip over these areas. The danger is when people tighten their grip and keep on holding to religion instead of the real answers. That's when religion turns to become a delusion. It now doesn't answer correctly these questions, but instead it misdirects the believer to think the answer is something else than it really is - in reality. This, I think, is what I would call a fundamentalist. A person who refuse to see the truth that has been revealed, and stick to the old fantasy. It's just like if someone still believed that thunderstorms are still made by Thor riding on a carriage and hitting the clouds with his hammer. We know now that it isn't so. We also know, in our modern time, all these things about nature, cosmos and evolution, and the closed minded fundamentalist refuse to move on and modify their faith to fit the new knowledge. It's dangerous, very dangerous. (Sorry for being so wordy) Comparing that to you, Soj, I know you're not a fundamentalist, but very open to see the world for what it is, and modify your faith accordingly. That's courage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I like that and you give me a lot to meditate on in this last post, thanks Hans sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I modified my post a little, because it was to cramped up. And shortened it a bit. I tend to get to excited and over-explain things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 And here's another mind boggler: Some people say that the Universe is "fine tuned" for life, and that's why the vast size etc, etc... but I've heard some scientists say that the universe is more fine tuned for black holes than for life. There are million times more black holes than the number of humans in human history. Have you read or seen anything on the science channel about "Dark Matter"? They actually have PROVEN it exists, not theory, but proof. AND it makes up the MAJORITY of the universe: In astrophysics and cosmology, dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter of unknown composition that does not emit or reflect enough electromagnetic radiation to be observed directly, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter. According to present observations of structures larger than galaxies, as well as Big Bang cosmology, dark matter accounts for the vast majority of mass in the observable universe. Food for thought? Last summer I attended a free lecture of a local astrophysicist at the university who definitely thinks dark matter exists. He showed diagrams and explained exactly how it is detected and why it has to be there and why it cannot be anything else. I don't remember his name but he was talking about his own work and he was really into it. Unfortunately, my unscientific and unmathematical brain cannot retain enough actual facts to report. But I can vouche for his sincerity and conviction and I am sure I can look him up if it is important. Send me a pm if you want name of school and department. What I did retain was the enormity of the universe. It all meshes with what is being said here. Different people use different ways of saying the same thing and that helps me learn the concepts. EDIT: And yes, dark energy accounts for the vast majority of the mass of the universe. EDIT 2: I read Hans's post about dark matter and dark energy. I don't know if the two are the same. I found the notes I took at this lecture. It was on dark matter. It accounts for the vast majority of the mass of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 It was explained very well, I will have to do some digging to find the data on the web. This might be food for a new thread, it does impact the scale of things by making the already unfathonably big, even BIGGER! God must be an American, they like everything super-sized. N-n-n-nooo. I found my notes and I found the name of the guy who lectured. It was at a Canadian university. I know because I did not go through Customs. Our land mass is far bigger than yours, if you're talking about BIG. But let's not fight about something as petty as size of country and the gods that go with them--you know, gods started out being tribal. We're talking about ultimate reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 the universe is more fine tuned for black holes than for life I like that, it reminds me of how its the mysteries in life that far outweigh what we actually know and that is what makes life so wonderful I dont want to know it all, I love the journey, the mystery, Do you really? I find a need to learn and find the answers. For me, mystery is something that demands an answer. Well, not everything. There are things that elude me, but some things that interest me or in some way impact my life directly, I need an answer. For example, if I am expected to profess belief in god in exchange for membership in the community, I need to know this god exists. Faith is not knowing. It's jumping off a cliff into a void. It's intellectual suicide, compromising my personal integrity. To me, mystery at that point is nothing but a fog of self-deception. If it works for you, I have no quarrel but that is why I cannot accept the "God as mystery" answer for myself. I could not accept it, either, when I had a church leader who believed it. It did not seem real or honest to me. That is why I ask whether you really and truly, in the depth of your heart of hearts, prefer mystery or whether that is your way of holding onto god because you so much want god to be true? No obligation to answer but that is my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 N-n-n-nooo. I found my notes and I found the name of the guy who lectured. It was at a Canadian university. I know because I did not go through Customs. Our land mass is far bigger than yours, if you're talking about BIG. I must refute that! No country in the world got bigger bellies than America! But let's not fight about something as petty as size of country and the gods that go with them--you know, gods started out being tribal. We're talking about ultimate reality. It's a funny word. Ultimate reality... How can anything be more ultimate real than it is right now?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Well, it seems we can't find the outer edge of the universe. But it probably is part of reality, too. So, ultimately, the universe is reality, once we can find it. I'm just standing this whole thing on its head. Not sure if I know what I'm doing. About big bellies. You Americans can have your big bellies if that is something you want to brag about. I hear big bellies are a health hazzard so I won't go hankering after them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 About big bellies. You Americans can have your big bellies if that is something you want to brag about. I hear big bellies are a health hazzard so I won't go hankering after them. Maybe its just where I am, but everyone seems more or less healthy and fit. Where are all these obese Americans I keep hearing about? Is it more of an urban thing b/c I dont see an unusual amount of overweight people, maybe 1 in 20 I would say. Not like Im out in the country either, Arlington is hardly the boonies it borders both Dallas and Fort Worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Well, it seems we can't find the outer edge of the universe. But it probably is part of reality, too. So, ultimately, the universe is reality, once we can find it. I'm just standing this whole thing on its head. Not sure if I know what I'm doing. Sure. The Universe is the reality. And it's the ultimate reality (as far as we know at the moment), so to me it is "God". Very Pantheistic, I know, but there's no need to prescribe this Universe God any mind or consciousness (or intent). About big bellies. You Americans can have your big bellies if that is something you want to brag about. I hear big bellies are a health hazzard so I won't go hankering after them. Some got their own gravital pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 In the subject of 'fine tuning' TBH, if the universe wasn't 'fine tuned' for stars (and thus black holes) and galaxies and planets, then we'd not be here to contemplate it... so, really, it's not that much of a surprise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 In other words, the universe is exactly the way it is because of the way things are. If things were slightly different the universe would be different. Things are the way they are because things are the way they are. If things were different things would be different. No purpose or miracle behind it to wonder at. The wonder and inspiration IS the universe itself, not something or someone behind it. This takes out all thought or ideas about fine-tuning for or about anything because "fine-tuning" points to a master-mind behind it. Is that your point, Gramps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Pretty much... change any of the 'Universal constants' in the 4th decimal place and whatever would be here, we'd not be looking at it, nor would any life. But a change inthe 4th dec. pl. would be fine tuning for a different type of star... Every possible configuration is 'fine tuned' for 'something' just not life, by necessity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 wow Hans, its so mind boggling and especially to my mind lol Not only for your mind, but for everyones. Mine too. And here's another mind boggler: Some people say that the Universe is "fine tuned" for life, and that's why the immense size etc, etc... but I've heard some scientists say that the universe is more fine tuned for black holes than for life. There are million times more black holes than the number of humans in human history. And another fascinating thought is, there's trillions of planets out there with their own sunrises and sunsets every Earth day. Right now there a billions of them, happening this instant, this second, and the next second. Each second there are more sunsets in the Universe than spoken words in history. Sunsets we will never see. If there is a God, and there's a purpose to the Universe, then one should ask themselves if it isn't possible that this "purpose" of "God" isn't really humans, but could be something else? I don't have the time right now, but of all the atheistic texts to come out recently, it was "The God Delusion" that helped me finally shed my Christianity. In the book, he addressed this idea yet I can't remember the exact name of it. Supposedly, there was a mathematical formula that had SEVEN variables in it or something like it and if one of them was tuned ever so slightly, then life on this planet would cease to exist. Maybe you know or SWIM or Grandpa Hurley may know, what is the name of this formula? I don't have much time to search for it, but I haven't forgotten about it. It would seem to me that if the universe is fine-tuned ever so slightly, some kind of deep and vast intelligence created it so life of all kind could exist. As I read over this thread, it still goes to show how much we do know and yet how much we don't know. Human knowledge is like dark matter, we know the ideas exist but we have a hard time trying to prove them. Great thread, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 In other words, the universe is exactly the way it is because of the way things are. If things were slightly different the universe would be different. Things are the way they are because things are the way they are. If things were different things would be different. No purpose or miracle behind it to wonder at. The wonder and inspiration IS the universe itself, not something or someone behind it. This takes out all thought or ideas about fine-tuning for or about anything because "fine-tuning" points to a master-mind behind it. Is that your point, Gramps? Exactly! Who needs a god, or even sci-fi when we have all this to ponder and be in awe of! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 TBH, doesn't the idea of something simply making it somehow rob it of magic? If it was all made just to entertain us, then the fine tuning becomes nothing much, in fact, based on the average human's mental capacity, it's an exercise in futility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Pretty much... change any of the 'Universal constants' in the 4th decimal place and whatever would be here, we'd not be looking at it, nor would any life. But a change inthe 4th dec. pl. would be fine tuning for a different type of star... Every possible configuration is 'fine tuned' for 'something' just not life, by necessity... Funny too, if you dig you will find that when two galaxies collide, the stars are far enough apart not to collide with one another, but the collision removes the hydrogen cloud that they are "born" with. Which means, since our galaxy is not engulfed in a hydrogen cloud, that our galaxy collided with another one deep in the past. That would have been a sight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 TBH, doesn't the idea of something simply making it somehow rob it of magic? If it was all made just to entertain us, then the fine tuning becomes nothing much, in fact, based on the average human's mental capacity, it's an exercise in futility... Indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Pretty much... change any of the 'Universal constants' in the 4th decimal place and whatever would be here, we'd not be looking at it, nor would any life. But a change inthe 4th dec. pl. would be fine tuning for a different type of star... Every possible configuration is 'fine tuned' for 'something' just not life, by necessity... Funny too, if you dig you will find that when two galaxies collide, the stars are far enough apart not to collide with one another, but the collision removes the hydrogen cloud that they are "born" with. Which means, since our galaxy is not engulfed in a hydrogen cloud, that our galaxy collided with another one deep in the past. That would have been a sight! Based on spectral analyses, there's a chance that our sun is not a native of this galaxy at all, but one of the Sagittarius globular clusters that they think are the galaxy that hit the Milky Way... I'd have to dig hard for that, but there is every chance we don't belong here at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 EDIT 2: I read Hans's post about dark matter and dark energy. I don't know if the two are the same. I found the notes I took at this lecture. It was on dark matter. It accounts for the vast majority of the mass of the universe. My understanding (and I could be wrong here) is that dark matter and dark energy are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Pretty much... change any of the 'Universal constants' in the 4th decimal place and whatever would be here, we'd not be looking at it, nor would any life. But a change inthe 4th dec. pl. would be fine tuning for a different type of star... Every possible configuration is 'fine tuned' for 'something' just not life, by necessity... Funny too, if you dig you will find that when two galaxies collide, the stars are far enough apart not to collide with one another, but the collision removes the hydrogen cloud that they are "born" with. Which means, since our galaxy is not engulfed in a hydrogen cloud, that our galaxy collided with another one deep in the past. That would have been a sight! Based on spectral analyses, there's a chance that our sun is not a native of this galaxy at all, but one of the Sagittarius globular clusters that they think are the galaxy that hit the Milky Way... I'd have to dig hard for that, but there is every chance we don't belong here at all... One thought I've had on the phenomenon is just speculative what if...how possible would you imagine it to be for a matter exchange in a galaxy collision to approach 100%? What if , instead of a random collision event involving particulate matter w(which is what I guess most would imagine in trying to picture such an event), there's a semi-orderly slingshot effect involving transfer of momentum, which sped up from a distance would appear as the galaxies bouncing off one another? SWIM's already mentioned that little or no collision would occur between star systems (easy to imagine), and the forces at play would be significantly different than those in two packets of loose particulate matter flung at each other. For example, strong gravitational forces are at work, which I imagine would have a strong slingshot effect between different star systems, varying by proximity, star mass, velocity and direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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