SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Well, some examples that I don't have socks older than would be good... LOL, granted they are young in the photos, but they are EYE examples. I LOVE your owl picture, saved it for future use/abuse. It really made me smile this morning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Ok, this one has a tad bit better eyes then the owl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 This one is a tad bit older (lucy liu) though she is pretty, IMO the eyes are a little bit TOO asian: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 And just one more for The-Doctor: There, now everyone has benefited from the thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Lucy Lui is cross eye... let's see... Michelle Yeoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I saw Han's post with The Pale Blue Dot picture in it, but if there is anything that may reinforce the Christian delusion, that is it. If we are that alone, how in the hell does anybody here expect a Christian to give up their belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I saw Han's post with The Pale Blue Dot picture in it, but if there is anything that may reinforce the Christian delusion, that is it. If we are that alone, how in the hell does anybody here expect a Christian to give up their belief? I think you missed the point. The point was about scale. Nobody said we are "alone", in fact, in all probablity there are likely infinite amounts of life bearing planet's out there. The idea is SCALE, and our insignific exisitance in the grand scheme of things, the BIG picture. Once one grasps scale, at least a little on this magnitude, all religion pales... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I think you missed the point. The point was about scale. Nobody said we are "alone", in fact, in all probablity there are likely infinite amounts of life bearing planet's out there. The idea is SCALE, and our insignific exisitance in the grand scheme of things, the BIG picture. Once one grasps scale, at least a little on this magnitude, all religion pales... True, I won't deny that. And Christians can reach for that quote in the Bible, the one about man's insignificance and make up some argument about great and huge God is despite our minute status. Point is, there is no concrete evidence of anything nearby us in this galaxy that supports life besides Earth, thereby not changing the mind of any fundamentalist. For many people, the scale matters but if one doesn't have the emotional will to admit what you said about THE BIG PICTURE, then they won't have the emotional will to leave the shackles of Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 The point is, there is nothing in the bible to support that scale of creator god... a creator god's interest in our tiny planet is out of proportion with the scale of the rest of the universe... almost like the Bible god is trapped here... presupposing its existence. To build THAT big a universe just to impress us is akin to my buying a topflight Aston Martin to impress the ants who live in the garden of a house in Japan... that is, it's nonsense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I would say another wishy-washy universalist. Flipping and flopping about with the self-delusion that he can thereby make the atheists happy by not contradicting them but also keeping his god out there front and center. The Jesus-God thing is the only consistent thing I see in him--everything else is up for grabs. He concedes everything else when he sees himself losing. He will cede his own Self, his own intelligence without so much as blinking an eye--just so long as his precious god remains out there front and center, his precious jesus. That's all he is--a projection of what he thinks he should be. Therefore he can twist his nose like it's made of soft wax. If only he knew how disgusting he makes himself. But sure, he can stay if he like. But real he is not. Since you do use the phrase 'another wishy-washy universalist' in your post I wish to respond. I would just like to say for clarity. I have already been thru having much of my beliefs dismantled and taken away, as in eternal torment, hell, blindness to elitism and tribalism, authority of the 'church' and positions of leadership within in a persons life, there are more but for sake of brevity I will leave it at that. I am wishy washy but speaking for myself I am open minded, always questioning, seeking and there is very little that gets a rise out of me so that I actually enter into debates or 'take a stand'. Those things dont come up here, for you all dont try and force me to accept the bible as inerrent and infallible, to not question the brutality and inconsistancy of the ot God with the nt God, nor do you try and force me to be elitist or fundamentalist. Therefore, the things that do tend to get a rise out of me never enter the picture here. I am definately flip flopping around right now, reading things that I have never considered, thinking thoughts I wouldnt dare to think just a few months ago. However, dont mistake that for some fakery. I am real. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It's a phrase, not a word... sorry, but it makes me wince... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 word was missing its s but I did change it to phrase, it is a much better sentence that way. thanks sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It's a phrase, not a word... sorry, but it makes me wince... Gramps this made me think of you. Mr. Period This too Mr. Period Returns March on ye stalwart defender of the English language. Edit: Grammar Mistakes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Han, you never said if any of the other two asian eyes pictures came closer to hitting your "beautiful" meter, I choose one of them that was mixed European... Weird, I thought I did. Maybe I didn't click the submit button. The second one is right on. Gorgeous eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It's a phrase, not a word... sorry, but it makes me wince... Gramps this made me think of you. Mr. Period This too Mr. Period Returns March on ye stalwart defender of the English language. Edit: Grammar Mistakes..... Somethings press my buttons... being called a sinner, people insulting my intelligence, and abuses of the English language... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 word was missing its s but I did change it to phrase, it is a much better sentence that way. thanks sojourner Yes... it has a better rhythm... I'm all for polished metre... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 True, I won't deny that. And Christians can reach for that quote in the Bible, the one about man's insignificance and make up some argument about great and huge God is despite our minute status. Point is, there is no concrete evidence of anything nearby us in this galaxy that supports life besides Earth, thereby not changing the mind of any fundamentalist. For many people, the scale matters but if one doesn't have the emotional will to admit what you said about THE BIG PICTURE, then they won't have the emotional will to leave the shackles of Christianity. When I was Christian, I was thinking in the lines that: "yes, the universe is big, but even if we're insignificant in the universe, we're still important to God" and such. But during the last couple of years when I have looked and read about the full size of the universe, at first you get the feeling "it is very big", then you start getting the feeling "oh, it is extremely big", then you realize it is: "frigging super extremely big", then you get to the point "it is so fucking super frigging big that it the point of beyond imagination was passed a trillion trillion trillion times!" And you start seriously thinking, why the heck didn't God just create one galaxy, because our galaxy is the size of "1 beyond-imagination", but the size of the universe is so far beyond that. Seriously, if God needed the universe only to create humans, it is just mind boggling why he would waste so much for that purpose? What is the purpose of the trillions of stars at the edge of the universe that we will never in human history be able to see or visit? The purpose is obviously not for us to see it or visit it, just because that's exactly the problem, we will never be able to, not unless we invent the Warp Drive. We hear from time to time that the "Fine Tuned" argument or the Ontological argument or Purpose of Design, etc, they all point to that the Universe and our existence has a purpose, meaning or they have been perfected with a final intent, or final cause. But what is the final cause or purpose of 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999% waste material? What is the purpose of our sun? To warm us. What is the purpose of the stars we can see? To light up the sky at night? What is the purpose of the stars we can't see, and will never be able to see? .... ehh, to give scientists something to do??? Our bio mass is so small in comparison to the universe that in math, or probability, you would pretty much exclude it from the calculation. Or if I put it this way, we hear the argument that the "probability for life" is so low, or for abiogenesis and such. But the problem with those arguments is that there is a probability, even so small, it is still there. But they make the mistake of taking a low probability and equate it with no probability. Basically they round the number to zero. Now, our bio mass, or even the planets whole mass, in comparison with the mass of the universe, is smaller than those probabilities! So the probability that God even can find us in the universe is statistically smaller than life to form by chance! Now, that is a frigging small existence. So I find it rather silly when those probabilities come up, because they haven't realized the tinniness of our existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Based on the percentage of biomass in the universe as a percentage of the universe there is no life in the universe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Based on the percentage of biomass in the universe as a percentage of the universe there is no life in the universe... Yup. HHGTTG makes it very clear. Humans are not even mentioned. I think that few people really sit down and start reading about the size of the U, and compare it and just think about it. When they do - as I did, and I'm sure you did - you got to a point beyond amazement, and you keep on going after that, and it doesn't stop. You realize how incredible incomprehensible and that it is surpassing even our imagination. Our planet is like an atom inside our Sun in comparison. So if people just think about it. We can't see the atoms directly, because they're so small. We can see the Sun, but we know it is incredible big, many, many times larger than our planet (which is already extremely big). Those two extremes, and somehow there's a God that did that intentionally for some unexplained purpose? Seriously, God only needed our solar system and a few stars, but go beyond that to make a whole galaxy, then another, then another, then another ... billions of them, so ridiculously far away from us... it's just silly to believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 ... We hear from time to time that the "Fine Tuned" argument or the Ontological argument or Purpose of Design, etc, they all point to that the Universe and our existence has a purpose, meaning or they have been perfected with a final intent, or final cause. But what is the final cause or purpose of 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% waste material? What is the purpose of our sun? To warm us. What is the purpose of the stars we can see? To light up the sky at night? What is the purpose of the stars we can't see, and will never be able to see? .... ehh, to give scientists something to do??? ... I thought the following seemed appropriate here: i met a toad the other day by the name of warty bliggens he was sitting under a toadstool feeling contented he explained that when the cosmos was created that toadstool was especially planned for his personal shelter from sun and rain thought out and prepared for him do not tell me said warty bliggens that there is not a purpose in the universe the thought is blasphemy a little more conversation revealed that warty bliggens considers himself to be the center of the same universe the earth exists to grow toadstools for him to sit under the sun to give him light by day and the moon and wheeling constellations to make beautiful the night for the sake of warty bliggens to what act of yours do you impute this interest on the part of the creator of the universe i asked him why is it that you are so greatly favored ask rather said warty bliggens what the universe has done to deserve me if i were a human being i would not laugh too complacently at poor warty bliggens for similar absurdities have only too often lodged in the crinkles of the human cerebrum archy (as reported by Don Marquis) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Awesome. I saved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Well, long as some one is benefitting from the whole thing, I'm happy... Ditto! At least all this we have been saying is not "dust in the wind". I too am glad this whole thing was not a waste of time. Yeah, it suddenly occurred to me that no one knows how much I'm soaking up all those posts if I don't say so. I was reading and absorbing every word and it seemed everyone would just know it and suddenly it hit me that of course you don't--can't--know it. So I figured I better post about it. I always like to know if the stuff I laboured over helped at least one person. And this stuff did help me. It's elementary enough for me to visualize. I also really liked the blue picture of the universe with the caption that questioned the significance of one man in all of that dying for the sins of humanity. I tried to pick out which speck of white might be our planet, and then imagine the billions of people on here--the thousands of us in my city. And the size of the universe explodes beyond anything I can begin to comprehend. Trying to have a god in there--or outside it--somewhere is just stupendously stupid. I've got one of the wildest imaginations known to humans and if I can't imagine it then no one can. It's as simple as that. What that boils down to is that xians fail to realistically imagine the size of the universe. Yes, that's arrogant. Hopelessly and incurably arrogant. But try to argue me out of it. SWIM, I think the most realistic idea is that the universe has always existed. At least so far as concerns humans. After all, all those billions of years gone by constitutes "always" so far as concerns the human mind, just as ten years constitutes "always" to a three-year-old. It's totally beyond comprehension and meaningless to argue beyond it. Needing a god in there somewhere indicates a lack of faith so far as I am concerned--a lack of faith in I-don't-know-what. I don't think faith needs an object. Faith just is. I have faith that the sun will rise again tomorrow. I have faith that things will work out in my life somehow or other. And that if they don't I'll die and that will be alright, too. And, if there happens to be a god, I trust this is the kind of faith a god would be looking for anyway. Faith in a specific literal thing as easy as Moses dividing the sea and god speaking the word to create a universe--that isn't faith. That is reciting a batch of words. Faith that I am a good enough person because Jesus died on a cross two thousand years ago isn't faith at all. It's just consoling oneself with a fantastic story, not to mention a whole batch of psychological processes that must come into play for it to work. Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen (Heb. 11:1). To me, those are profound words of wisdom about something much larger and much deeper than slain lambs and crucified lords and three-teired universes created by the spoken word by some demi-god sitting on the roof of the world. They are words that resound across a massive universe in which man doesn't count, yet exists. An existence among of swirling systems of frozen globes and molten masses and everything in between. Pure chaos ordered according to its own beauty. Clinging to his own globe, his own planet, man exists. Man boasts that the mind-boggling systems of the universe of which he is not even a speck somehow exists for him and him alone. If his fellow-humans disagree with him he will fight them with tooth and claw to prove himself right. And the masses of the universe continue to swirl. The man dies. His progeny dies. A thousand years have passed. His place has been long forgotten. Another thousand earth-years have passed since that was spoken. We are passing through the universe. The journey has barely begun. That, Cooligan, is faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Was the Cosmic Year of any use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I would say another wishy-washy universalist. Flipping and flopping about with the self-delusion that he can thereby make the atheists happy by not contradicting them but also keeping his god out there front and center. The Jesus-God thing is the only consistent thing I see in him--everything else is up for grabs. He concedes everything else when he sees himself losing. He will cede his own Self, his own intelligence without so much as blinking an eye--just so long as his precious god remains out there front and center, his precious jesus. That's all he is--a projection of what he thinks he should be. Therefore he can twist his nose like it's made of soft wax. If only he knew how disgusting he makes himself. But sure, he can stay if he like. But real he is not. <snip> I am definately flip flopping around right now, reading things that I have never considered, thinking thoughts I wouldnt dare to think just a few months ago. However, dont mistake that for some fakery. I am real. sojourner Sojourner, About universalists. I've seen that there's more than one kind of universalist. I spent two years in class with a universalist unitarian. And you are nothing like her at all. So right there we've got two kinds--her and you. Then there's Kratos--a third kind because he's very different from you. On another forum, before I was here, I learned to know a person who identified as an ordained unversalist unitarian minister. Different yet again. My classmate told me that they come in all shapes, sizes, and colours. Some of our exC members go to universalist churches because they don't have to be Christian to be part of the community. Some of our members are on committees of leadership at those churches. My classmate said that at the local universalist unitarian church there are Jewish people, Christians, atheists, any kind of Chrisian. She identified as a christian UU. She was training for the UU ministry at a Lutheran seminary. I don't know if universalist and universalist unitarian is the same or not but it sounds an awful lot alike to me so I have been assuming they're the same. Or at least related. I apologize if I'm wrong. Given that there are so many kinds of universalists, I don't expect you to take responsibility for the behaviour and beliefs of all universalists who venture onto these forums, nor would I expect you to take it personally when someone critiques the behaviour of one or more of these various personalities. Just to clarify, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote the above post. First of all, you don't come across to me as flip-flopping. You've been here for several months and to me you seem consistent across time. In contrast, Cooligan and some others seem to change colour in every post as needed to get positive feedback. I don't see that in you. I don't know Cooligan's affiliation. All I know is that he claims not to be fundamentalist. As I look over my post again, I can see why "another wishy-washy universalist" would seem like I think all universalists are wishy-washy. I don't. But some are. Wishy-washy types probably show up in all groups. At the time when I was writing that post Cooligan seemed to me to be another one of the wishy-washy type. At the point of writing this post I have no idea who or what he is except he's still trying to prove to all who will listen that god created the universe and that humans are the central purpose of it all. That seems ludicrous in the scale of things, literally. You seem to be as you present yourself, a sojourner on this planet, as I think we all are if we want to put it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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