The Beauty Of Nature

[Deva]

I think it is intrinsically beautiful because I would bet every human has found at least one part of nature to be beautiful.

 

There is so much variation in humans that I wouldn't use the term "every human". You say you are here not to prove anything, but why get on a website for ex-christians and start promoting a creator? You are very well aware there are atheists here. You should be prepared to back up your statements with some facts or face some fire. This is common sense.

[Dhampir]

QUOTE (Grandpa Harley @ Feb 6 2008, 02:56 PM) *

QUOTE (Cooligan @ Feb 6 2008, 06:51 PM) *

QUOTE (Dhampir @ Feb 6 2008, 02:48 PM) *

...Must it have been created because you find it beautiful, or do you find it beautiful because it was created? No, it's not a stupid or trick question.

 

 

 

Because it is beautiful, I think it must have been created. Good question.

 

 

and it is intrinsically beautiful HOW?

 

 

I think it is intrinsically beautiful because I would bet every human has found at least one part of nature to be beautiful.

 

I didn't write this with the intent to be convincing or original, as I didn't know that was a requirement for this forum. I wanted to engage people in conversation. Feel free to not read anything more I have to say.

So essentially your inference that nature is beautiful because god created it, and us to appreciate it, is only that, an inference? Not evidence at all, and certainly not proof of your claim.

 

I have a better question then: If god created nature, and he created us, is nature even beautiful at all? Or do we say it is because we have been created (in part) to marvel at god's work? That is, were we created to think it is beautiful, rather than it was created to BE what we think it is?

[Ouroboros]

So, when I look at a snowcapped mountain or a forest of redwoods, it isn't actually beautiful, I just think it is?

Kind of correct, but not completely. Think about it.

 

If you could travel to another planet with some alien life form. They have some art that just doesn't make sense to you. They claim it is perfect and beautiful beyond comprehension, but you think it stinks. Who is right? Your emotions, or their emotions? In either case it is subjective and not a universal beauty.

 

Do you think or feel a burnt forest is beautiful or is it ugly? If either or, why?

 

Another thing, I don't say: "I think it is beautiful", emotions are a part of human nature. You (as many Christians) want to remove emotions as a possible construct for people who don't feel belief in a fantasy God. That is not the same thing. To not to believe in imaginary friends does not automatically means that emotions are gone. We feel, we bleed, and have emotions just as much as people with religious delusions. It's part of human nature.

 

So when you say "I don't feel but think it is beautiful" it already show that you don't understand the difference. To feel that something is beautiful does not necessitate a rational argument, or fact based, to why we feel such and such is beautiful. I don't know if you understand this. The human is composed by more things than just rational thought and basic needs for food and drink. Biological responses and chemicals in our body do happen, that's a fact, so we do feel, even without thinking about it.

[Ouroboros]

The question, on an objective level, is like asking what does blue taste of...

And what color is sweet?

[The-Captain]

The question, on an objective level, is like asking what does blue taste of...

And what color is sweet?

 

Fuzzy...

[R. S. Martin]

Do you think humans are born with a natural inclination to enjoy their surroundings, or is nature really something special? Are some of you disappointed that nature isn't more beautiful?

 

Then what happened with the deserts, did god get bored. I absolutely detest the desert. I find it hot, ugly, dry and dull. So therefore, since I find no appreciation of the desert, god must no exist. Yet again, I think the ocean is marvelous even though it has the sand factor, so there must be a god. I don't know quite what you are asking, are you saying that the way nature looks and our ability to appreciate beauty proves there is a god? I can't ever remember looking around at a beautiful view and thinking, "wow there must be a god because this is awesome." Not even when I was a christian.

 

 

I've never seen a moutain or desert. I've lived all my life in a very fertile area of the country where the wild takes over any abandoned site in short order. Depending on the time of year and conditions, only a matter of weeks is required for the first greenery to appear. You can imagine what cultivated gardens and parks look like. Or conservation areas left to thrive at the natural pace.

 

Whenever I asked my mother how we know God is real she would insist all we have to do is look at nature. I did. I loved nature. I did not understand evolution and I assumed it's horrible and evil and ugly because that was all I ever heard. But never in my deepest heart of hearts could I convince myself that the natural beauty with which I found myself surrounded either in the lush green of spring or golden blue and white of winter that God was the reason for its existence.

 

This was in the 60s and 70s before powerfull electrical lights dimmed the stars out where we lived and I could see the stars in all their glory--what I could see with my very low vision. I loved the stars on a dark moonless night. I loved the naturally lighted moonlit nights just as much. I loved all the different moods and types of weather and seasons. But God wasn't in any of it. God just wasn't.

 

I went to church and learned all the right feelings that go along with the sermons, the singing, the prayers. I learned the Bible and other religious literature. But God did not manifest himself. The feelings did not bring God. Finally I read a book that told me the feelings were God.

 

Wow.

 

If that was true then I had known God for a very long time. But nobody had ever told me that God was a feeling. Somehow, it didn't really stick. Wasn't God supposed to be a literal Being who did things like smite the Egyptians' first-born of children and animals so they would let the Israelites go? Didn't he do material stuff for them like give bread in the wilderness and send hornets to drive their enemies out of the Promised Land?

 

And even in my own life, wasn't he supposedly responsible for stuff like making sure I saw that car zipping around the corner before I crossed the street? My mother said so. She was always saying "A higher hand must have been watching out for us." Or "This could not have been the doing of humans" when there was a fortunate coincidence. I made it my business to figure out whether or not she was correct about coincidences, but my point here is that she was talking about material real-life stuff--not just some mystical feeling.

 

Whether leading the Israelites out of Egypt or looking out for people today, or demanding the sacrifice of his own son, this God was more than a mystical feeling. And the beauties of nature somehow didn't cut it as evidence of his existence. Not that I ever thought it out in logical sequence like this but I "knew" that nature wasn't the evidence I needed.

 

Here is the story of that test. My younger siblings came home from school with a new song they had learned:

 

Some people say there is no God up in the heavens

They say he did not send his son for us to die

They mock his name and to their shame they live without him

But I believe in God and I can tell you why.

 

That's the first verse. I held my breath. Here was someone who could tell me why they believed in god! Oh how I longed for evidence! How I clung to every word of the chorus for dear life as they sung it out:

 

His hand created all the stars that light the heavens

His tender touch brought forth the beauty of the rose

His love so free he gave to us that's why I praise him

My God is real--is real to me all heaven knows.

 

My heart was crushed in bitter, bitter disappointment. I was devasted. Another broken promise. My siblings told me there were more verses. They would get them in the following weeks when the music teacher came again. I waited in suspence, not daring to tell anyone the intensity of my longing for an answer. Such deep, deep doubt about God's existence was simply not permissible. I had to bear it all alone, keep it all inside. And I pretended there was nothing wrong.

 

Time passed and they brought home the rest of the song. The other verses were more of the same. Just proclamations of God making the beauties of nature and the stupidity of anyone not believing it. Promise of explanation left devastatingly void and empty.

 

Cooligan, I hope you understand by this story, along with everyone else's posts, that your argument carries absolutely no weight and no water.

 

Also, it is quite evident by your repeated questions to Grandpa Harley (after he fully and completely answered every last one of your questions) that you intend to keep after us till you trip and trap us in our words and get a confession out of us that yes God does exist because just look at his wonderful creation. Cooligan, get this straight, that won't happen. You'll get ripped to shreds and eaten alive before that happens.

[Ouroboros]

What if everyone in the world, past, present and future, agreed that sunsets are beautiful, then are they beautiful?

It's a limited objective truth, but not necessarily a universal truth.

 

Are sunsets on Alpha Prime-X also beautiful? They must be universally and objectively so or not, so tell me, since you somehow think you it can be known.

 

By the way, which one of the sunsets are you talking about? The one yesterday, last week when it was raining, or 20,000 years ago, or for the people on some exploding volcano? Is really, truly, every sunset, all the time, everywhere always beautiful? What about Los Angeles smog filled air with a yellow setting? Or when it is a storm and you can't see shit, but people are freezing to death? Sure, everyone will sit down, and imagine the sunset being really nice, while people die next to them. You see, it's no fixed point or fact based conclusion to say "sunsets are all beautiful, everywhere, and everytime."

[Grandpa Harley]

...Must it have been created because you find it beautiful, or do you find it beautiful because it was created? No, it's not a stupid or trick question.

 

 

Because it is beautiful, I think it must have been created. Good question.

 

and it is intrinsically beautiful HOW?

 

I think it is intrinsically beautiful because I would bet every human has found at least one part of nature to be beautiful.

 

I didn't write this with the intent to be convincing or original, as I didn't know that was a requirement for this forum. I wanted to engage people in conversation. Feel free to not read anything more I have to say.

 

So, consensus is fact? So there there was a time the world was flat, or it was flat and rode on the back of four elephants on the back of a giant turtle... but which ever 'everyone' believed it to be so the sun did go round the earth that was at the centre of the universe, except when the sun was pushed across the sky by a giant dung beetle, or it was a flaming boat pursuing the moon... get the jist?

 

And as to 'original' if you don't want your arse handed to you on a plate with a side order of fries, anything much to do with the God of the bible, no matter how you read it, better be at least amusing... there is about 100 to 150 years of Christianity among the people posting on this thread, so, we've pretty much heard is all before...

[R. S. Martin]

Since we're on the topic of beauty, just to prove that it is totally subjective and in the eye of the beholder. No offense to anyone but I personally do not find the human body--any part of it--aesthetically appealing. I can tolerate face and hands but I want the other parts covered so I can concentrate on the person that lives inside. That, of course, would make the cooler months the better time of year for me aesthetically. However, I don't want to move north with winter. I value humans so much that I have disciplined myself to focus on what is meaningful for me regardless of how little or how much of their body people choose to cover.

 

I'm not sure if that adds or detracts from this discussion, but I think, Hans, you have an excellent point when you say: To feel that something is beautiful does not necessitate a rational argument, or fact based, to why we feel such and such is beautiful.

 

I think fundies have a serious problem in most areas of their lives to differentiate between feelings and thought. They rationalize everything, even their feelings. If they think their feelings don't measure up to a certain criteria they think they are sinning. Thus, they are so out of touch with their feelings that they have no idea who they really are. This is, I believe, why Cooligan has such a seriously difficult time understanding our answers. It seems he is trying to cross-examine us and see what we really believe because he can't believe that we really believe what we are saying; it just doesn't fit the template of atheists inside his head--the template his church passed down to him. And he can't--absolutely dare not--accept the plain truth as it appears to him. He has to keep prodding and seeking till he comes up with an alternative idea to explain away the plain truth so as to fit the inner template. That's just the way the fundy mind works.

 

So maybe he believes in evolution. It seems these days one can believe in evolution and still be fundy. Heck, you can be atheist and be fundy. Read up on Hans's post about the different types of atheism if you don't believe it.

[Cooligan]

Cooligan, I hope you understand by this story, along with everyone else's posts, that your argument carries absolutely no weight and no water.

 

Also, it is quite evident by your repeated questions to Grandpa Harley (after he fully and completely answered every last one of your questions) that you intend to keep after us till you trip and trap us in our words and get a confession out of us that yes God does exist because just look at his wonderful creation. Cooligan, get this straight, that won't happen. You'll get ripped to shreds and eaten alive before that happens.

 

 

Good post. I know when I'm beat. Adieu.

[Grandpa Harley]

Hang around... you could learn something...

[Grandpa Harley]

NO, when he said it, not when you asked... it meant he was going to explain it whether anyone asked or not... I mean... not one of us thinks it's going to be anything either convincing or original...

 

 

OK, Yes I am sure you are right. I know I am going to hear it and really I can hardly wait.

 

Was it worth the baited breath

[R. S. Martin]

Cooligan, I hope you understand by this story, along with everyone else's posts, that your argument carries absolutely no weight and no water.

 

Also, it is quite evident by your repeated questions to Grandpa Harley (after he fully and completely answered every last one of your questions) that you intend to keep after us till you trip and trap us in our words and get a confession out of us that yes God does exist because just look at his wonderful creation. Cooligan, get this straight, that won't happen. You'll get ripped to shreds and eaten alive before that happens.

 

 

Good post. I know when I'm beat. Adieu.

 

Like Gramps says, you can hang around. You might learn something. I didn't mean that to be fierce or vicious or anything though I can see that you might have taken it as such. I was just stating facts. I could see things going in that direction. I respect people who are willing to learn but I cannot respect people who come to evangelize me for any reason whatsoever. I am happy to discuss their beliefs and share ideas. I like to know why people believe as they do. If you're here to learn, have your beliefs challenged, ask questions, throw around ideas, welcome to the forums. If you're here to evangelize.....I think you got a bit of a taste as to what that entails. Few evangelizers get kicked out but many leave by choice. You stand out in that you actually got quite a discussion going with intelligent questions.

 

I think that with a bit of practice you could hone your skills to a pretty high and respectable quality. An invitation from Gramps to hang around and learn should probably be taken as a compliment.

[Ouroboros]

I'm not, and I can't, prove anything I'm saying, mostly because beauty is subjective. I guess I would like someone to agree with me, but just because they agree with me, not because I made them.

But... but... that's exactly right. Beauty is subjective. So beauty is not intrinsically beautiful by supernatural design or some concepts of Plato's Forms and such, it is so only on a personal opinion level. But however, we have as a species, evolved into certain concepts of agreements of what we consider (a genetic consensus if you will) to be beautiful. And it is very likely based on how, and where, we as primates grew and evolved and survived.

[Ouroboros]

I think it is intrinsically beautiful because I would bet every human has found at least one part of nature to be beautiful.

Gah! Now you contradicted yourself. If it is intrinsically beautiful, then it is NOT subjective. Intrinsic means that it has it without your subjective acknowledgment of it being so. An Alpha Centaurian slug, is beautiful in its own sense, but you haven't learned it yet, and you can't appreciate it, is that how you see things?

 

Intrinsic means that it has a value in an universal and objective way, and not subjective or from a personal viewpoint. If someone can see the sunset and say it's ugly, then it proves you wrong! An intrinsic beauty would have to be and always be truly so for everyone, at every time, everywhere. That's what intrinsic means.

[Ouroboros]

The question, on an objective level, is like asking what does blue taste of...

And what color is sweet?

 

Fuzzy...

And warm and wet. It is also a frequency of sound, A# I think... or maybe it's rather Db?

[R. S. Martin]

Talking about sunsets and beauty. One day I was at the bus stop when the sun was setting. There was what I considered a lovely sunset at the end of the street. I commented to another person also at the bus stop.

 

That was a mistake. She saw only air polution. According to her, the colours should not have been there; they are indication of air polution; hence they are not beautiful.

 

I could not accept her argument but neither could I think of a way to refute it successfully. She had spoiled a precious moment for me. I did not appreciate it. But my point is, colourful sunsets are not appreciated by all people.

[Ouroboros]

I could not accept her argument but neither could I think of a way to refute it successfully. She had spoiled a precious moment for me. I did not appreciate it. But my point is, colourful sunsets are not appreciated by all people.

Exactly.

 

When I go home from work and see a wonderful sunset over Orange County... it is orange. And it's because of pollution. So... well... I guess God created a polluted Orange County to create a very special and in some ways nice sunset here. Strange God...

 

 

Maybe Cooligan can explain this:

 

I love the color green. That is my favorite color. But of some reason, my wife and my kids think other colors are the colors to love. They are of course mistaken, because God created green for me and for everyone to love, and it's a universal and absolute truth that everyone has to love green, or they are delusional and stupid...

[The-Captain]

The question, on an objective level, is like asking what does blue taste of...

And what color is sweet?

 

Fuzzy...

And warm and wet. It is also a frequency of sound, A# I think... or maybe it's rather Db?

 

Intrinsically of course...

[Ouroboros]

Intrinsically of course...

Most definitely an innate capacity, dormant since ages, and through real metaphysical powers of unknown origins, can be brought out to full realization.

 

What our visitor doesn't know is that the sunset on the Moon is far more beautiful than that one on Earth. How do I know? Have I ever been there? No, I haven't been there but I know it must be, because God made it so...

[HuaiDan]

Same sappy argument. Heard it a million times.

Almost getting to be like an automated answering system.

 

 

For issues dealing with an omnipotent or omnipresent god, press 1. For issues dealing with intelligent design or the intrinsic beauty of nature, press 2. For issues dealing with biblical infallibility...

 

*2*

If you believe in a literal account of creation as expressed by the Bible, and that the earth was created approximately 6000 years ago by God, press 1. If you believe life may have evolved in some way, but guided by the will of an intelligent designer, press 2. If you believe....

[Vigile]

I live in one of the most naturally beautiful parts of this planet. I am stunned daily by the majesty of what is around me. Like Grampa Harley said, it's more amazing that it has come about on its own. The idea that someone just created it is not special at all.

 

 

 

But doesn't it seem strange that something so beautiful to you and your family happened out of sheer luck?

 

P.S. By the way, for everyone, no need to disprove creationism here, I believe in evolution.

 

Nature is beautiful, but only in the context of it being natural. If you introduce a god into the picture then you necessarily must question the morality of nature. If god caused nature, and a sentient god is necessarily a moral being, then why did he make it so harsh? An unfathomable amount of suffering exists in nature. If god created it, then he's a sadist. If, OTH, it's purely mechanical, then no need to consider the morality.

[Grandpa Harley]

 

I was raised in a steel town... the chemical smog ove the place made the sunsets look like Van Gogh had got the 'painiting the sky' detail in some after life... abolutly gorgeous...

 

The nights were less nice, since some nights you could read be the light of the sky when they were dumping the molten slag, and in winter, I didn't see significant snow that lasted more than a day until the pollution laws kicked in (I was about 7)

[Grandpa Harley]

I live in one of the most naturally beautiful parts of this planet. I am stunned daily by the majesty of what is around me. Like Grampa Harley said, it's more amazing that it has come about on its own. The idea that someone just created it is not special at all.

 

 

 

But doesn't it seem strange that something so beautiful to you and your family happened out of sheer luck?

 

P.S. By the way, for everyone, no need to disprove creationism here, I believe in evolution.

 

Nature is beautiful, but only in the context of it being natural. If you introduce a god into the picture then you necessarily must question the morality of nature. If god caused nature, and a sentient god is necessarily a moral being, then why did he make it so harsh? An unfathomable amount of suffering exists in nature. If god created it, then he's a sadist. If, OTH, it's purely mechanical, then no need to consider the morality.

 

Back to the sex lives of bed bugs...

[The-Captain]

I live in one of the most naturally beautiful parts of this planet. I am stunned daily by the majesty of what is around me. Like Grampa Harley said, it's more amazing that it has come about on its own. The idea that someone just created it is not special at all.

 

 

 

But doesn't it seem strange that something so beautiful to you and your family happened out of sheer luck?

 

P.S. By the way, for everyone, no need to disprove creationism here, I believe in evolution.

 

Nature is beautiful, but only in the context of it being natural. If you introduce a god into the picture then you necessarily must question the morality of nature. If god caused nature, and a sentient god is necessarily a moral being, then why did he make it so harsh? An unfathomable amount of suffering exists in nature. If god created it, then he's a sadist. If, OTH, it's purely mechanical, then no need to consider the morality.

 

Back to the sex lives of bed bugs...

 

I had rose colored glasses till the bed bugs fucked them...