R. S. Martin Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I don't know any famous people but this young woman looks very much like the young woman my landlady adopted as a baby twenty years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It's a phrase, not a word... sorry, but it makes me wince... Gramps this made me think of you. Mr. Period This too Mr. Period Returns March on ye stalwart defender of the English language. Edit: Grammar Mistakes..... Somethings press my buttons... being called a sinner, people insulting my intelligence, and abuses of the English language... Mine, too. That should be two words. Some things.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Was the Cosmic Year of any use? You asking me? Never heard of it so I guess it was of no use to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 But what is the final cause or purpose of 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% waste material? QUESTION: Is that an actual computation? Or did you rest your finger on the 9 key for a while and then decide after a while to lift it and put a % sign after it, just knowing it would be right any way and besides no one could prove you wrong? Also, I think it's that string of numbers that makes the window almost too wide from my screen. That's why I cut it in this quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I don't think we can actually type enough nines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 QUESTION: Is that an actual computation? Or did you rest your finger on the 9 key for a while and then decide after a while to lift it and put a % sign after it, just knowing it would be right any way and besides no one could prove you wrong? Also, I think it's that string of numbers that makes the window almost too wide from my screen. That's why I cut it in this quote. I will make it shorter so it won't cut off on the screen, and I basically just added a whole bunch of 9's. To give a more accurate computation, we have to start with the total mass of our planet with all biomass on it, it's estimated to about: 5.9742 × 10^24 kg. The mass of the Universe is very hard to estimate, but is one number: 3 x 10^52 kg. The percentage we'd get from 6x10^24 of 3x10^52 is 2x10^-26%. (Divide 6x10^24 with 3x10^52, multiply with 100 to get %). 2x10^-1 is the same as 0.2, and 2x10^-2 is the same as 0.02, so 2x10^-26 is this number: 0.00000000000000000000000002% So it would mean that (I hope I get the right number of 9's here) there's 99.99999999999999999999999998% mass out there that's pretty much waste. But also, consider I took the mass of Earth, which is a large planet. How small of a fraction of the total Earth mass is actually the mass of humans? We're about 6.6 billion people, that is 6,600,000,000 bodies. Let's say the average weight is 70 kg (I just picked a number), that means we constitute: 4.6x10^11 kg. That would add about 13 more 9's already there to the number above: 99. 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% is just non-human matter. Now, the next problem is... should dark matter be included in this formula too? If we include dark matter, we would get a huge amount of more "9"s. Because some suspect that the visible matter is just a small fraction of the mass of the dark matter. How much? Who knows. One estimate is that the visible Universe is only 5% of the total mass, in other words, dark matter would be 19 times larger than the first number we used. We'll end up with a much smaller number than I gave in the earlier post, that's true, but still it's a very large number of wasted matter just to have some humans to play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I don't think we can actually type enough nines... And if we also consider just one human, compared to all humans, I'm just 1/6,600,000,000th of the human bio-mass... the thought is mind-boggling... And in the end what is the gain for God? The majority of humanity will go to Hell anyway, so why? Why do all that wasted effort to get a few millions people in heaven to sing the same "Glory to God" song a billion times a day? It's just so beyond fantasy! It actually makes belief in Santa Clause sound more rational! And here's another weird thing. (Correct me if I'm wrong here Gramps) But I think the total bio-mass of all bacteria is much times larger than the bio-mass of humans! That would make bacteria the most important and purposeful being on this planet, not us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Was the Cosmic Year of any use? You asking me? Never heard of it so I guess it was of no use to me. It was in the pale blue dot post I did above... if the history of the universe were condensed to one year, with the Big Bang at 0000 on Jan 1st, all human history fits in the last ten seconds of 31st December... there's a picture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I don't think we can actually type enough nines... And if we also consider just one human, compared to all humans, I'm just 1/6,600,000,000th of the human bio-mass... the thought is mind-boggling... And in the end what is the gain for God? The majority of humanity will go to Hell anyway, so why? Why do all that wasted effort to get a few millions people in heaven to sing the same "Glory to God" song a billion times a day? It's just so beyond fantasy! It actually makes belief in Santa Clause sound more rational! And here's another weird thing. (Correct me if I'm wrong here Gramps) But I think the total bio-mass of all bacteria is much times larger than the bio-mass of humans! That would make bacteria the most important and purposeful being on this planet, not us. That's about right... from an alien view, the dominant species would be bacteria... they tend to be the top and tail of the food chain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 You will never be able to type enough nines. We have been mostly talking about ONE universe, but there is no reason to think that there are not endless amounts of them out there, some bigger, some smaller, some being banged in, others freezing out, growing, being born, dying... The BIG picture. It is so awesome, there just is not enough room in our imaginations to grasp it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 SWIM, I think the most realistic idea is that the universe has always existed. At least so far as concerns humans. After all, all those billions of years gone by constitutes "always" so far as concerns the human mind, just as ten years constitutes "always" to a three-year-old. It's totally beyond comprehension and meaningless to argue beyond it. Needing a god in there somewhere indicates a lack of faith so far as I am concerned--a lack of faith in I-don't-know-what. Yup, that is exactly what I have been trying in vain to relay to cooligan, though not in those words, the meanings is basically the same, in fact we all have been saying this in our own way this later part of the thread. I am suprised there have been no further interjections from cooligan, perhaps it is all a bit much for him. But he DID ask for it starting the whole "awe of nature" thing, we just took it to the outer limits, rather then just a sunset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 SWIM, this is so funny. Here's I'm striving to stretch my mind around an endless line of nines and a limitless batch of multiverses. And then: the cat will NOT run out of toilet paper. Talk about "jolt of reality" and "coming back to earth." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Was the Cosmic Year of any use? You asking me? Never heard of it so I guess it was of no use to me. It was in the pale blue dot post I did above... if the history of the universe were condensed to one year, with the Big Bang at 0000 on Jan 1st, all human history fits in the last ten seconds of 31st December... there's a picture... So THAT is what the Pale Blue Dot means? I read that post but didn't understand it. I looked for it now--checked through the last hundred or so posts--and couldn't find it. My eyes aren't good at this kind of thing. So I could not reread it in light of this new post. The analogy of this post here is something I'm going to be able to remember. Three to five thousand years of human history packed into five second of the Cosmic Year. "What a mighty....uh....god....uh.....we, ah, serve." This isn't going so well. I just felt inspired by the mighty ages of, uh, all the hymnology I know is geared to praising a deity and his eternity. This aw-inspiring universe must be hymned some way or another. Not in praise or service, just in tones and feelings expressed in words and music. Such vast spaces, such eternal ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 The Pale blue Dot picture isn't the clearest... a friend of mine who has 20/10 vision (better than 'perfect') had to have it explained... now she wants it as a large picture for her lounge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 SWIM, this is so funny. Here's I'm striving to stretch my mind around an endless line of nines and a limitless batch of multiverses. And then: the cat will NOT run out of toilet paper. Talk about "jolt of reality" and "coming back to earth." An example of infinity! hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 An example of infinity! hehe without recourse to pointing up human stupidity... I'm impressed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 This has been a very good thread for me. In that seeing the scale of creation is mind boggling. And looking at that and the need inside man to feel unique, special and loved juxtaposed to how small we are. I was thinking about the bible and how the entire bible is always about someone getting chosen over others. Its incredibly tribal. It seems so much of it is mans need to be special, chosen, elite and Gods desire for a special, chosen and elite human being or beings. For instance, this is from the message Deut. 10:14-18—"Look around you: Everything you see is God's—the heavens above and beyond, the Earth, and everything on it. But it was your ancestors who God fell in love with; he picked their children—that's you!—out of all the other peoples. That's where we are right now. So cut away the thick calluses from your heart and stop being so willfully hardheaded. GOD, your God, is the God of all gods, he's the Master of all masters, a God immense and powerful and awesome. He doesn't play favorites, takes no bribes, makes sure orphans and widows are treated fairly, takes loving care of foreigners by seeing that they get food and clothing." Im an only child, and the mother of an only child. I have never been loved less or more than another child nor do I as a parent have that to deal with that. But as this op was about nature and loving the beautiful parts of it and those inspiring a love or acknowledgment of God, that really opens my eyes. We do the same thing with nature that verse does with mankind. We choose and seperate in order to be inspired by the lovely parts, the special, the chosen and beautiful. I am so guilty of this and I can see how selective Ive been. However, everything has its beautiful and not so beautiful. Its really choosing a season in its life that we do rather than accepting its whole if you will. I dont think that is always arrogance in man to imagine his importance to God. When its aligned with that tribal elitist thing then its arrogance to me. Or choosing some small time in his life when he was at full bloom and defining his whole life by that moment. We do that in nature. We define the skys beauty by the moments at sunrise or sunset and so forth. I also noticed when spending much time on the hubble site how some of the most beautiful pictures we have are of dying stars, and I relate to how some sharing their hearts on this thread and how they have come to see mans smallness and our planets smallness in the vast creation is a dying of sorts to arrogance and a beautiful picture of the dying stars. Humility like that to me shines very bright as it is without all the elitist tribalism mentality. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 An example of infinity! Another example of infinity is the fundamentalist's stupidity. It never runs out either, like your cat's TP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Oh forgot to mention, did any of you look at the astronomy picture of the day today? http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html that so reminds me of the pictures you see under the microscope of millions of sperm racing thru the body lol and makes me think more on evolving. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Soj, Isn't it amazing? That's a picture of something that is 3 billion light years away. In other words, that light, that hit the camera when they took the picture, had traveled for 3 billion years. Who knows how it looks like today. Each one of those lights are not a single star, but each one is a galaxy, just like our own. Each one with 10-100 billions of stars, and maybe 100-300 billions of planets. And since this was so long ago, that baby galaxy they mention isn't a baby anymore, but might have millions of planets in it, with life on them. How would we ever know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 wow Hans, its so mind boggling and especially to my mind lol great thread and makes me in awe of this vast creation with or without a God it sure is amazing! sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 An example of infinity! Another example of infinity is the fundamentalist's stupidity. It never runs out either, like your cat's TP. Indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 wow Hans, its so mind boggling and especially to my mind lol Not only for your mind, but for everyones. Mine too. And here's another mind boggler: Some people say that the Universe is "fine tuned" for life, and that's why the immense size etc, etc... but I've heard some scientists say that the universe is more fine tuned for black holes than for life. There are million times more black holes than the number of humans in human history. And another fascinating thought is, there's trillions of planets out there with their own sunrises and sunsets every Earth day. Right now there a billions of them, happening this instant, this second, and the next second. Each second there are more sunsets in the Universe than spoken words in history. Sunsets we will never see. If there is a God, and there's a purpose to the Universe, then one should ask themselves if it isn't possible that this "purpose" of "God" isn't really humans, but could be something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 And here's another mind boggler: Some people say that the Universe is "fine tuned" for life, and that's why the vast size etc, etc... but I've heard some scientists say that the universe is more fine tuned for black holes than for life. There are million times more black holes than the number of humans in human history. Have you read or seen anything on the science channel about "Dark Matter"? They actually have PROVEN it exists, not theory, but proof. AND it makes up the MAJORITY of the universe: In astrophysics and cosmology, dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter of unknown composition that does not emit or reflect enough electromagnetic radiation to be observed directly, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter. According to present observations of structures larger than galaxies, as well as Big Bang cosmology, dark matter accounts for the vast majority of mass in the observable universe. Food for thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 the universe is more fine tuned for black holes than for life I like that, it reminds me of how its the mysteries in life that far outweigh what we actually know and that is what makes life so wonderful I dont want to know it all, I love the journey, the mystery, the treasure hunt is the thrill and how I know this is no matter what I find it eventually loses its luster compared to what there is to seek after that I dont know lol sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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