chefranden Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Prompted by the beating YoYo is taking in: accepted inaccuracy, another reason to not like Christians. Two Cents on the direction of this discussion from Sam Harris: "By failing to live by the letter of the texts, while tolerating the irrationality of those who do, religious moderates betray faith and reason equally." I'm mostly in agreement with Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens on the destructive power of religion and especially Abrahamic religions. However, I part company with them over the idea that reason is the answer to religion. As scientists, Dawkins and especially Harris ought to take into account the actual structure of the brain and how the brain constructs an individuals world view. No human forms a world view strictly on reason. If you feel a twinge of anger or insult over this statement you have an example of my point. Decisions can be informed by reason, but they are never formed by reason. Reason can give the individual a list of options, but it is in the end emotion that chooses from the list. Being Spock is beyond human capacity. I think that the emotion expressed against YoYo in the thread is evidence of what I'm trying to get at here. It is obvious that Ex-Christians FEEL that YoYo should submit to reason. YoYo on the other hand FEELS that he must maintain his faith, even in the face of reason. YoYo also feels that reason should have a place, but the feeling that directs him to maintain faith is stronger than the feeling that gives credence to reason. Thus he must maintain faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I largely agree. I guess I'll spend all day agreeing with people. Good post in my opinion Chef. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Good call. Though I could not have summed it up so neatly I kind of came to the same conclusion recently due to one of my YouTube discussions with a fellow. Slightly different line of thought, but your post kind of made some more pieces click together. Though I hate fundy arrogance with a passion, at some point I have to accept that faith really does work for them. If they can accept that faith doesn't work for me and actually starts driving me insane then perhaps we can get along and have genuine discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I have no problem with Yoyo selling his snake oil by the gallon... however why not do it where it's just more oil in a festering vat of it rather than here? ATM we have God boy calling people Fundamentalists and then getting pissy when I call him a cock-sucker...he wants to play name calling, I can do it better than he can without a blood pressure rise and probably come up with things most people find here vile if pressed... and HE IS PRESSING.... Basically anyone coming here selling snake oil is a troll, since they are after making an emotional response (someone going back to their vicious, nasty, blood-soaked, demon worshipping, stink hole faith) If I wanted dog shit in my head I'd go to a Christian site... Unless someone has a better reason for Yoyo to be here... then I'd be interested to know what they think it is the arse hole wants... Why the FUCK does he want to maintain his faith to us, if not to be irritating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I can almost sing it. Please don't drag your ass across the carpet of our minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 No human forms a world view strictly on reason. If you feel a twinge of anger or insult over this statement you have an example of my point. Decisions can be informed by reason, but they are never formed by reason. Reason can give the individual a list of options, but it is in the end emotion that chooses from the list. Being Spock is beyond human capacity. I think that the emotion expressed against YoYo in the thread is evidence of what I'm trying to get at here. It is obvious that Ex-Christians FEEL that YoYo should submit to reason. YoYo on the other hand FEELS that he must maintain his faith, even in the face of reason. YoYo also feels that reason should have a place, but the feeling that directs him to maintain faith is stronger than the feeling that gives credence to reason. Thus he must maintain faith. Nice to see another respected member saying this. Not an easy thing for people to accept. We all want "Answers" with a capital A. I for one see people like Dawkins being somewhat just a different face of fundamentalism, because it sees human reason as the supreme authority, whereas the fundamentalist sees divine revelation as the supreme authority. Reality is we choose what works for us, and we largely base what works for us on emotional reasons. But people want to feel secure in their choices. That's why we create all these 'justifications' or supports for those choices. But in reality, they're all always in flux, in constant motion, because we are always in motion and change and our knowledge is constantly shifting. Even those who point to divine revelation as unchangeable, can't! One needs only look at the sifting face or religion through the ages. Now Dawkins says science and reason is the Answer. To put your foot on a line and say "Here and no further", to me denies life, it denies our humanness, and is itself, to use Dawkins' own term is "Delusional". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 To put you foot on a line and say "Here and no further", to me denies life, it denies our humanness, and is itself to use Dawkins term a "Delusion". Cogitamus ergo sumus. Lingua est a secui nostrum. I will go no further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 The why of 'why Yoyo is like he is' isn't exactly a hard question answer... so easy in fact I didn't think it needed asking... the why of 'Why Yoyo feels he has to justify his faith HERE' is the problem I'm having... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 To put you foot on a line and say "Here and no further", to me denies life, it denies our humanness, and is itself to use Dawkins term a "Delusion". Cogitamus ergo sumus. Lingua est a secui nostrum. I will go no further. Explain the context in which Desrcartes made that statement? Was he out to establish absolutes, or something else? P.S. Once you've done that, answer if Descartes is the authoritative source of truth for modern man ever since the 1600's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 "[...]the authoritative source of truth for modern man?" That's the great Taoist sage, Homer Simpson, surely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 To put you foot on a line and say "Here and no further", to me denies life, it denies our humanness, and is itself to use Dawkins term a "Delusion". Cogitamus ergo sumus. Lingua est a secui nostrum. I will go no further. Explain the context in which Desrcartes made that statement? Was he out to establish absolutes, or something else? P.S. Once you've done that, answer if Descartes is the authoritative source of truth for modern man? Well, aren't we demanding? In my own mind I put Descarte in a hotel room. Come on Antlerman, the systematic acquisition of knowledge must start someplace right? Is it too much for you to aknowledge that your thinking gives evidence that you exist? What if I said, "We feel therefore we are."? Same result. We are. And not once have you criticized my assertion that language is a part of us. Because language is your darling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 "[...]the authoritative source of truth for modern man?" That's the great Taoist sage, Homer Simpson, surely... Doesn't that say something? It's always a created framework on which to build. Simpson can just as easily become that, just as Descartes is the father of modern Western philosophy. But it sure doesn't 't make it authoritative or necessarily relevant outside that context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 My purpose is served... I've never rated Mad Rene...although he is in the greatest philosophical joke EVAH!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 My purpose is served... I've never rated Mad Rene...although he is in the greatest philosophical joke EVAH!!! A waiter asked Rene after his meal, 'Would you care for a dessert Mr. Descartes?' To which he replied, 'I think not,' and vanished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 19, 2008 Author Share Posted March 19, 2008 I have no problem with Yoyo selling his snake oil by the gallon... however why not do it where it's just more oil in a festering vat of it rather than here? Having Christians here has always been part of the fun since way back when? I've always admired Christians that can make it past 20 posts. Anyway if there were no Christians you might have to learn to be polite. If I wanted dog shit in my head I'd go to a Christian site... Or contrariwise you might put them on ignore here, but I suspect you rather enjoy exercising your wonderful talent for vitriol. Unless someone has a better reason for Yoyo to be here... then I'd be interested to know what they think it is the arse hole wants... Why the FUCK does he want to maintain his faith to us, if not to be irritating? Perhaps he is testing himself to see if he really believes. Perhaps he likes to argue. When I was a Christian I would have loved this site as a place to test my wits. But alas the internet was just a baby last time I believed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I don't disagree with you one bit Chef. But. I really didn't get "emotional" with YoYo, until he decided to insinuate a physical threat towards us. If anyone of you were standing in front of me, I would be going to jail right now. And he justifies his insinuation of violence by stating he has a daughter. Well whoop-tee-do. Wow. A daughter. Those are sure rare. At NO point did either GH or I EVER suggest he should commit incest, so his justification for implied violence falls right on it's face there. We were discussing well known bible atrocities without referring to characters, verses, or books (because we expect folks here to already know these details are from 'Da Bibble'), and YoYo took this personally and lashed back at what he thought was a direct implication towards himself. Like he wasn't even familiar with the story we were referring to. And it's quite possible he was not. But therin lies the tale. YoYo implied physical violence as a justified response to not liking a conversation. I find it ironic that he will cherry-pick the bible to keep the "good parts", but say he rejects the "bad parts" while at the same time threatening physical violence for speech he don't like in true good ol' OT "bad parts" spirit! And this is the problem with "cherry-picking". As christians, they may "think" they are keeping the good in the bible, and disregarding the bad...but even a quick glance at history tells us they do NOT in fact disregard the bad at all! They emulate that good ol' OT spirit again and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 So GH, you are mad because Christians visit this site, yet there are invitaions for Christians to comment?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 and accusing me of fundementalism is a good way of getting called a cocksucker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 So GH, you are mad because Christians visit this site, yet there are invitaions for Christians to comment?????? No, there aren't... it says you can comment in the lion's den...don't make you welcome or anything else... so take a big steaming cup of STFU and just FUCK OFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 So GH, you are mad because Christians visit this site, yet there are invitaions for Christians to comment?????? Get him End! Sick him! Tear his damn leg off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 GH is hooked on emotions! Anger! Try logic..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I have no problem with Yoyo selling his snake oil by the gallon... however why not do it where it's just more oil in a festering vat of it rather than here? Having Christians here has always been part of the fun since way back when? I've always admired Christians that can make it past 20 posts. Anyway if there were no Christians you might have to learn to be polite. If I wanted dog shit in my head I'd go to a Christian site... Or contrariwise you might put them on ignore here, but I suspect you rather enjoy exercising your wonderful talent for vitriol. Unless someone has a better reason for Yoyo to be here... then I'd be interested to know what they think it is the arse hole wants... Why the FUCK does he want to maintain his faith to us, if not to be irritating? Perhaps he is testing himself to see if he really believes. Perhaps he likes to argue. When I was a Christian I would have loved this site as a place to test my wits. But alas the internet was just a baby last time I believed. and you can get out of my face as well. It's bad enough having assholes pontificating the Lurve of Gawd without you pontificating that you don't like my style... If someone shits on my carpet I don't see the need to be nice... I recommend you to the penultimate words of Russell Casse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 So GH, you are mad because Christians visit this site, yet there are invitaions for Christians to comment?????? No, there aren't... it says you can comment in the lion's den...don't make you welcome or anything else He may be referring to all the many topics that get started titled, "Question for Christians...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 GH is hooked on emotions! Anger! Try logic..... Try being sane... you've established yourself as alternating between semi illiterate fruit loop to patience trying arse wipe... I'll address you as I see fit you retard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 So GH, you are mad because Christians visit this site, yet there are invitaions for Christians to comment?????? No, there aren't... it says you can comment in the lion's den...don't make you welcome or anything else He may be referring to all the many topics that get started titled, "Question for Christians...." With End3 he may be pulling it out of his ass... The only reason those thread start is because they turn up like flies to a corpse in July... unwanted, uninvited and verminous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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