Definition of Sin

[Savedbyfaith]

 

Very interesting. The Twelwe Apostles are not literally but symbolically, just like Jesus death and resurrection is. Jesus never died, it was a symbol. Jesus never existed either, it was only symbolically speaking.

 

[sBF] You know that's not true. You asked me for an explanation. You got it. Now please explain to me what John 6:39 etal mean.

[Savedbyfaith]

Yay! After 23 pages, sbf at least tried to answer a question.

 

So, here are my thoughts: Jesus does not, nor ever has existed. He's a character in a story. Nothing more. That's why he let me go.

 

[sBF] How does someone who never existed let you go?

[Checkmate]

Yay! After 23 pages, sbf at least tried to answer a question.

 

So, here are my thoughts: Jesus does not, nor ever has existed. He's a character in a story. Nothing more. That's why he let me go.

 

[sBF] How does someone who never existed let you go?

 

EXACTLY!!! Hey SBF! You're finally getting it!!! "He" doesn't exist, ergo, "He" cannot let anyone go! THAT'S WHY NONE OF US BELIEVE!!!

 

Welcome to the world of logic!

[Mythra]

I used to read James Clavell novels. Shogun. Tai-Pan. King Rat. Noble House. Captivated me long after I was done reading them. They were just characters too. Seemed real at the time. But they eventually let me go, too. They were stories.

 

People get so wrapped up in soap operas that they control their lives too. (stories)

 

Book of Mormon (story)

 

Euripedes Bachaae (story)

 

Quran (story) - although I do think Muhammed was based on a historical character

 

William Tell (story)

 

Sherlock Holmes (story)

 

Jesus (story)

 

end of story.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Twenty-five pages of *stuff* should have adequately covered, discoverd, fixed, solved and repaired anything wrong with topic.

 

Seems this discussion has devolved into a case of who can toss the most bannana peels and fling the most feces.

 

Shit tossing stops after this post.

 

k, Big Frackin Mankee, L

 

 

>edit: I've trimmed every folllowup post since my last. Either find a subject and follow it, quit tossin' funny bones to sbf to turn into shit makin's, or find another subject.

 

savedbyfaith, consider this a polite warning. ExC is not your pigpen. While you visit here the only expectation I have as Mod is that you read and follow the Bosses guidelines.

 

My next stop is to issue you a *time out* and as politely preserve the Bosses resources to be as availible to the most users as possible.

If it becomes a choice of pissing you off, or having bandwidth for the majority to have to use, your use here at ExC is not high on the priority list.

 

kevinL.

[Guest Priapus]

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to to public disgrace. "

 

 

But didn't SBF also cite the Jesus who said that none of His would be lost or something to that effect? The Jesus said none can be lost, but then the unforgivable sin is to fall away. Huh?

 

Nivek, just what did SBF do to earn yer rebukination? I didn't see the specific offense and I wanna make sure I don't commits it.

[Savedbyfaith]

 

savedbyfaith, consider this a polite warning. ExC is not your pigpen. While you visit here the only expectation I have as Mod is that you read and follow the Bosses guidelines.

My next stop is to issue you a *time out* and as politely preserve the Bosses resources to be as availible to the most users as possible.

If it becomes a choice of pissing you off, or having bandwidth for the majority to have to use, your use here at ExC is not high on the priority list.

 

 

[sBF] thank you. But what do you mean that ExC is not my pigpen? I am all for following the bosses guidelines. Where have I strayed?

 

Thanks,

SBF

[Savedbyfaith]

 

EXACTLY!!! Hey SBF! You're finally getting it!!! "He" doesn't exist, ergo, "He" cannot let anyone go! THAT'S WHY NONE OF US BELIEVE!!!

 

[sBF] But you did say that, "he let me go." That does not dovetail with saying, "He doesn't exist." At least, it is confusing.

[Savedbyfaith]

 

Enlightened, sharing in the Holy Spirit, tasting of the heavenly gift - can only mean that they were christians. Pretend christians cannot share in the Holy Spirit.

Brought BACK to repentence - means that they were once in a state of repentence.

 

Also this: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BRING THEM BACK. ie: you are wasting your time here.

 

[sBF] There is no question that these few passages are among the most debated in all scripture. What I believe they mean is this: The author of Hebrews does not suggest that apostasy (falling away) from salvation is possible. Rather, he provides the strongest case possible for the IMPOSSIBILITY of reinstatement to salvation IF ONE WERE TO FALL. The hypothetical spiritual experiences mentioned are clearly those of a genuine believer. Enlightenment is followed by tasting the heavenly gift and sharing in the Holy Spirit. The fact that there is no thought of forfeiture of salvation can be seen in Heb. 6:19, 10:14, as well as such verses as I have presented (John 6:39, 10:28,29, 18:9) and many others (Phil. 1:6). So The case is hypothetical, referring to the biblical truth that IF one could fall from salvation, he could not be saved again. Jesus died once for all; hence a person is saved ONCE for all time.

[Guest Priapus]

SavedByFaith's in bold

 

I'm sorry, Priapus. I hadn't realized you wanted to see some of God's promises in the book of Psalms.

Yes, I accepted your offer to show me this stuff three times now in the past three days. Thanks fer noticing. Now, SavedByFaith, here you will see why I gave up on your Christian faith with specific examples. I think this story will be that of a number of other regulars here as well.

 

 

Well, let's start with Ps. 2:12 where it shows that those who love the Lord Jesus will be blessed. To be blessed means to be happy in the Lord through the graces of his love, joy and peace. We are not able to generate these within ourselves because they come with the new birth. One of the great promises of scripture is this new birth which results from repentance and faith in Christ.

 

The promise of Ps. 3:3 is that God is my shield, my glory and the one who lifts me up. We all need God's protection from evil influences. By his Spirit, he protects me from those things that are not pleasing to him, as he guides me into all truth.

OK, right there. The Guidance. Never really saw that. How should I have experienced this? I mean, I can read the moral and behavioral directives in the Bible, just like any unsaved can. No special salvation dividend to be realized there. In 12 years as a highly motivated, dutiful Christian from 26 to 38 years old I prayed for God's guidance and I gotta tellya, I never once got anything that I didn't get before or since being a Christian. That is, I'd get good and bad advice from people around me.

 

I prayed for a Godly wife to share my life and to raise a family to glorify the Lord. I found a woman and we wed. It's been a most difficult and unsatisfying marriage. We're together only because of our children. We make an effort to get along for their sake. It's friendly enough, but not much love. We nearly divorced and prayer yielded nothing. It was not until after we gave up on "God's blessing" and took matters into our own hands that things turned around and we have a more tolerable situation. Not satisfying, but tolerable. Had I not been waiting for God's guidance which never came I might not have entered into this wedding. My Christian friends and Pastor, at the time, took the "If you're asking and God's not telling you otherwise, you must be in His will. Go for it!" attitude.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

 

The promise of Ps. 23:3 is that God is leading down the path or righteousness. As a believer, I have God's righteousness in Christ through the new birth. By following his word, God promises to instruct me in the path of righteousness which is part of the blessed life inChrist.

As in the previous item, this promise was unfulfilled other than the dictates provided in the text of the Bible. But again, that is available to anyone, even the unsaved. Was there some special "still, small voice" I should have heard?

 

"God's righteousness in Christ through the new birth." Huh? This sounds a little like some justification or suggestion that I'm made better having been "born again", but this is so nebulous and abstract as to be meaningless. Initially I felt exhilarated and was full of joy and anticipation of a fabulous new life full of communion with the Living God, but that faded over the years as I learned that my life was utterly unchanged.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

 

The promise of Ps. 32:7 is that God is my "hiding place."  My life is hidden in him where there are "songs of deliverance" from trouble.  God places his  hedge of protection around me.

Except for when my house was burglarized and my car rear-ended on the Interstate with the driver fleeing the scene and leaving me with a wrecked car which my insurance wouldn't fix because the guy who hit me was gone. OK. I had bad stuff before and after being a Christian too. Never really saw any difference in "protection" while I was a believer.

 

Sure, you can push the "but you might have been in the house when it was robbed and hurt by the burglars" and "you might have been injured in the crash were it not for God's protection.", but that leaves me wondering: God'll protect me from really bad stuff, but not from ordinary bad stuff. Thanks.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

 

The promise of Ps. 34:7 is that God has special angels who encamp themselves around those who fear him and he delivers them from trouble.  Fearing God is to hate evil and follow in the footsteps of his word, which is"light unto my path and a lamp unto my feet." (Ps. 119:105).  God promises me that if I follow and apply his word to my life, my foot will not stumble.  He guides and protects.

See previous items on lack of guidance and protection.

 

I'd add to that the stories of my childrens' births, both of which ended up with a week in the neonatal intensive care units. We'd prayed and had our church friends praying for us to conceive and deliver healthy babys to God's glory. The pregnancies were unremarkable and all tests indicated healthy babies. Right up to the point where my son's born and they say, "Well, Mr. Priapus, your son's not breathing and we don't know why." After measuring and testing every last bit of his little body trying to figure out what was wrong, the doctors discovered a cyst on his larynx which they were able to remove on the 5th day.

 

My daughter was born according to plan except that her lungs didn't clear and she required antibiotics for a week. Not as scary as with her brother, but still, no coming home with our Precious Gift from Loving God for a week after delivery. What was the value of all the prayer? Where was the protection? I dunno.

 

Then there was my bicycle crash while training for a triathlon. Oh the joy I felt, glorifying God with my strength and giving thanks with each mile. That is, until I woke up in the hospital, wondering where I was and how I got there. 5 broken ribs, a collarbone and a severe concussion (busted my helmet into 3 pieces). I spent two days in the hospital way the f*ck far from home so my wife could worry. Thanks Lord. My left arm works alright, but that shoulder's never going to be the same. It was a freak crash from some odd groove in the pavement I never saw. He protected me from stumbling but I guess not losing control of my bike.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

 

The promise of Ps. 37:29 is that I will inherit the earth and live in it forever. I will reign with Jesus Christ. 

 

SO abstract as to be meaningless. Certainly irrelevant to this present life.

 

 

The promise of Ps. 56:3 says that trusting in God delivers me from fear.  Whatever arrows the devil shoots my way, by turning to God and trusting in him, there is nothing to fear.  No weapon formed against me will prosper (Isa. 54:17)

As I stated in the other items, I had bad deals, misfortune, and heartache before, during, and after my 12 years as a faithful, praying, believing Christian.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

 

The promise of Ps. 73:23 24 is that God is continually with me and he holds me by my right hand.  I will be received into glory when my days are done. 

 

How should I have experienced this? I had no greater sense of God's presence during my years in church, nor any diminished presence leaving. "Receipt into glory" is another of those abstractions which is (a) irrelevant to this present life and ( will not be proven or disproved as we all know Christians who've died and know nothing of their condition post-mortem. You'll say you know they're in Heaven, but that's not knowledge, it is belief. Unless you have a postcard.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

The promise of Ps. 89:24 is that God's faithfulness and mercy is with me and in his name I will be exalted.  God is faithful, his mercies are new every morning.  Great is his faithfulness to those who love him and are called according to his purpose.

 

I loved the Lord my God with all my heart, mind, soul, and spirit. What faithfulness did he show me? No better fortune, relationships, health, joy, anything than previous or since. Your citations from the Psalms suggest a real, tangible experience of God in this life, some manifestation that the life of a Christian will be different than that of his non-believing neighbors. Not merely some abstract confidence in an afterlife we'll never verify, but something in the here and now. I got nothing. That is, nothing I didn't get outside of Christian faith.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

The promise of Ps. 91:3-6 is that God will deliver me from the schemes and snares of my enemies and pestilence.  Under his wings I take refuge knowing that God is faithful to his word and to all who trust in it. 

 

...Or he won't. See my previous items. I had given up on Christian faith and within a year I was fired from a job I wanted to leave anyway. I was fired on false pretenses because a different department wanted control of the function I did and I came with it. I wasn't part of their inner circle, however, so they made up a reason to get rid of me. Not so bad, though, because a friend of ours at a very interesting consulting firm said, "You're available!? Fantastic! I've always wanted to work with you!" I've been much happier here in the past 18 months and career prospects are much enhanced, no thanks to Christian faith.

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

 

The promise of Ps. 91:14-16 is that because I love him he will set me on high.  I can call upon him and he will answer me.  God will satisfy me with long life and he will then show me his salvation (Jesus). 

For 12 years I called upon The Lord with no response I could legitimately claim was His. Perhaps I was expecting something else? How should I have heard God's answer?

 

Net value of Faith: zero.

 

 

These are a small fraction of the many promises in the Psalms.  To summarize, I can say that in Christ I receive all the blessings of heaven and there is nothing he witholds from those who love him.  I am his child and he will never leave me or forsake me.  I am sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise for the day of redemption and to be his child for all eternity. (Eph. 4:30)

 

I think the thing that finally put me off of God was having my own children. The image of God as the perfect, loving father was always compelling for me, never having had a father growing up. But I realized that while I always gave my children attention, affection, reassurance, and praise for doing the right thing, I never got any of that from my Heavenly Father. I never leave my children to wonder if I love them. If they are insecure, I hold them. If they are hurt, I comfort them. I don't send a friend to do it. I don't leave them with empty words, but I hold them in my arms.

 

I don't give them every trinket and candy they ask for, but neither do I leave them completely on their own. I discipline them when they do the wrong thing, but I give them clear instruction on what I expect from them and why. I teach them how to get along and thrive in the world, and when they succeed, I praise them for it. I making sure they know exactly what they did right and how happy it made me. I remind them how good and kind and clever they are with real examples of their achievements. My children never wonder if I love them or care or notice what they do.

 

I cannot say the same for my experience with my heavenly father. This is why I am no longer a Christian. The fear of Hell faded when I realized that since the promises of blessing were empty, so must be the threats of condemnation.

 

I hope you will take the time to read other Psalms and be blessed by them. 

 

Oh I have. I've read 'em all several times over. Much of it's real pretty poetry, but after actively applying them I found them to be little more.

 

*****I got a bum tag in there somewhere. Somebody help me debug this mofo, please*****

[Ouroboros]

 

Very interesting. The Twelwe Apostles are not literally but symbolically, just like Jesus death and resurrection is. Jesus never died, it was a symbol. Jesus never existed either, it was only symbolically speaking.

 

[sBF] You know that's not true. You asked me for an explanation. You got it. Now please explain to me what John 6:39 etal mean.

(Dang. My frog comment got deleted, anyway, then I make a serious post instead)

 

You wanted me to explain John 6:39 to you, first we have the quote:

Joh 6:39  And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything that he has given me, but should raise it to life on the last day.

 

First, we don't know if Jesus existed or taught anything of this, so the verse is moot and without effect or meaning in anyones life.

 

But if Jesus did exist, and to be serious here, notice the words "anything that HE has given me". Jesus wouldn't lose anything God would give him right? I was never given to Jesus from God, and neither were you. You give yourself to Jesus, so Jesus never got you from God. Jesus is God, so how can God give to God something that SBF gave to God? Do you see the logical inconcistency here?

 

Now you must see the verse separates Jesus from God in a clear and distinct way. He claims God gives him something, and if you give your life to Jesus, you give to Jesus, but God has to give it to Jesus for this to be valid.

 

The next thing is that what God gave Jesus are dead in the event Jesus talks about, since he clearly states that "it" (not who), he says "raise it to life on the last day", so he clearly states that it was GOING to be raised to life on the last day, and not being alive at the moment he spoke.

 

Now I want you to explain Mat 7:22-23.

[Savedbyfaith]

[sBF] You know that's not true. You asked me for an explanation. You got it. Now please explain to me what John 6:39 etal mean.

 

You wanted me to explain John 6:39 to you, first we have the quote:

First, we don't know if Jesus existed or taught anything of this, so the verse is moot and without effect or meaning in anyones life.

 

[sBF] But wait a second, my friend. You're using scritpure to show that a person can lose their Christianity, yet you won't consider scripture that shows you can't. This puts us in that shaky position of "pickin and choosin." If you accept Heb. 6:4-6 to show that you can lose your Christianity, from an author we don't know, how is that you are quick to reject John 6:39 because you question his existance. Why not question the existance of the writer of Hebrews and what he said? At least, we know that Matthew wrote his book and recorded the words of Jesus.

 

But if Jesus did exist, and to be serious here, notice the words "anything that HE has given me". Jesus wouldn't lose anything God would give him right? I was never given to Jesus from God, and neither were you.

 

[sBF] I was, you weren't (please don't take that personally). Ex-Christians are saying they were just that- Christians. So if they were true Christians, according to John 6:39, then they would had to have been given to Christ by the Father. So those who think they were once Christians, and then left the faith, were in fact, never given to Jesus by the Father. The whole point is that the Father is the One who knows whom he will give to Jesus. That is, He foreknew from the foundation of the world, at the appointed time, who would repent and receive Jesus for salvation.

 

You give yourself to Jesus, so Jesus never got you from God.

 

[sBF] No one "gives" themself to Jesus unless he is first drawn by the Father (John 6:44). (We'll see how he draws men below). If the Father doesn't draw, then nobody gets saved. Man plays no role whatsoever in becoming a Christian apart from believing when he is drawn.

 

Jesus is God, so how can God give to God something that SBF gave to God? Do you see the logical inconcistency here?

 

[sBF] Again, no man can give himself. Look what John 1:13 says: The children of God (Christians) are born, "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. Self, family, or any other another person have no role in making a Christian. God always makes the move by, first drawing men to Jesus, then giving them to him through faith. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself." (John 12:32). The Father uses the cross to draw, the interactive work of the Holy Spirit convicts (John 16:8), the person believes, then the Father gives him to Jesus. But God only gives to Jesus those whom he foreknew and who will repent of their sins and receive Jesus at the appointed time. The names of all Christians were recorded in the book of life before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8).

 

Now you must see the verse separates Jesus from God in a clear and distinct way. He claims God gives him something, and if you give your life to Jesus, you give to Jesus, but God has to give it to Jesus for this to be valid.

 

[sBf] Jesus and the Father are "one," so they are not separate (John 10:30). I think you have to get away from the idea that man plays any role in drawing or giving himself to Jesus.

 

The next thing is that what God gave Jesus are dead in the event Jesus talks about, since he clearly states that "it" (not who), he says "raise it to life on the last day", so he clearly states that it was GOING to be raised to life on the last day, and not being alive at the moment he spoke.

 

[sBF] Yes, before God gives Jesus anyone, he is "dead" in his transgressions and sins (Eph. 2:1). I think we have to look at "it" as referring to those "whom" the Father gives to Jesus. He was speaking metaphorically. However, some versions use "them." But in verse 6:44, Jesus clearly says "whom" the Father draws, he will raise "him" up at the last day.

 

Now I want you to explain Mat 7:22-23.

 

[sBF] Ok, but thank you for standing firm on your promise. I believe you are interpretting John 6:39 the way you see it. Yes, we disagree, but you are to be commended for doing what you said you would do. No one else in this forum has offered their understanding of the verse. I may not have it exactly right, but I think the general sense is that once a person is saved, he can't lose it.

 

I think Matt. 7:22-23 is a good example of what we're talking about. Whoever God gives to Jesus can't ever become unsaved because Jesus won't lose any. They will do the will of the Father. So those who say "Lord, Lord" to Jesus on that day obviously weren't given to Jesus because he says, "I never knew you." All who come to Jesus are brought into a close relationship where he knows them and they know him: "My sheep hear my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:28,29). The definition of eternal life is to "know God." (John 17:1). Matt. 7:22,23 are talking about those who thought they were Christians because they did thus and so. They thought they prophesied, cast out demons and performed miracles in Christ's name. But they didn't because they never knew Jesus and therefore didn't have the power to do these things. They knew "about him," but never had that born again experience where they were placed "in Christ."

 

Hope this is helpful.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

You know what SavedByFaith or whatever your stupid screen name is...

 

[sBF] Well, what a charming greeting :-)

 

Take that bible of yours and go screw yourself.

 

[sBF] If you're interested in speaking with me, you'll have to drop the profanity and disrespect. I assume you are able to ask your questions or present your views in a decent manner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What's decent about claiming that none of us were true and devoted Christians?

 

Until you retract this incredibly insensitive and hyperjudgmental statement, you've got no business pissing and moaning over our "incivility".

 

Bitch.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I feel ignored.

 

[sBF] Come to Jesus: "I will never forsake you or leave you." (Heb. 13:5)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*thinks back on her twenty-year hell as a devoutly Christian abused kid and young adult, praying in tears every night for comfort, relief, SOMETHING...getting jack and shit...having the abuse AND her disabilities AND the Christian god's silence basically crack her mind and destroy her self-esteem...while she still fought down her own logical questions and prayed fervently, studied, went to church, gave money she didn't have to spare, volunteered left and right...and still got jack shit, not so much as a sense of being loved....*

 

*erupts in gales and gales and GALES of bitter laughter*

 

I am living, scarred, pissed-off proof that Hebrews 13:5 is a BIG FAT FUCKING LIE.

 

And if you DARE say that that innocent, trusting, loved-Jesus-with-all-her-heart LITTLE KID "wasn't a true Christian", you will get the response you THOROUGHLY deserve.

[Ouroboros]

 

Welcome Beccas! Nice to have more people coming on board.

 

This thread/topic has gone for too long and out of hand, so we started the question about Once-Saved-Always-Saved in another topic, and also the question if Not-True-Christian.

 

And some people have problem to load this topic because its too long.

 

So with this statement, I think we'll close this topic, and continue the discussion somewhere else.