Definition of Sin

[Savedbyfaith]

 

Stalin's victims had no control over the torture once it'd started, and for that we rightly call him evil.

 

[sBF] Yes.

 

When God casts people down for torture, his victims will have no control over the torture. For this, I rightly call him evil.

 

[sBF] Why? He gave them what they chose to have. How do you fault the parent for giving his child what he wants?

 

So you would also argue that Stalin let his victims have exactly what they wanted, that the torture inflicted on his victims was self-inflicted and the person being tortured chose to be tortured... Are you really saying that what Stalin did was perfectly fine by your standards?

 

[sBF] There are some things worth martyring yourself for, while there are others that aren't. "Martyring" one's self to eternal torment for the sake of principle, or whatever, when a simple profession of faith could be made for eternal pleasure, in my view, is the height of pride and is irrational. OTOH, martyring yourself for something eternally good is another matter. Many Christians have martyred themselves and were willing to accept torture and death for the prize they will receive for holding fast to the their faith in Christ. Their martyship will be rewarded in heaven.

 

Now those who martyr themselves because they wouldn't obey Stalin (if in fact they really didn't) first suffer the pain and torture at the hands of Stalin's henchmen. When they die from the torture, they then proceed to eternal torment for not accepting the One who could have saved them from it. Look what the rich man said when he found out he was in hell. He begged for mercy, asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue. He was, and still is, in agony (Luke 16:23,24). Perhaps he was a proud man bent on principle. We don't know, but what difference did it make. His fate is sealed and he is in agony right now knowing that he made the wrong decision. So to this extent, you can't compare Stalin and God. But you do make some good points up to that exent. Nice going :-)

 

Yes, they could have chosen to obey Stalin. But what's left out of this equation is that God and Stalin are very different. One kills and tortures regardless what people do. God only lets those who refuse his mercy partake of the consequences of their choices. He is only being just.

 

You are really starting to make me feel sick just knowing that you're human...

 

[sBF] Well thanks for the compliment of calling me human. Some have said otherwise. I don't get too many compliments around here. I urge you to really think about this man in Luke who knows he made the wrong choice and is eternally regretting it. Repent and give your life to Christ. I guarantee you will never regret "that" decision.

[dogmatically_challenged]

SBF...  I look forward to meeting you in Allah's hell. Afterall, you choose not to believe in his "truths."  You had a choice to love and obey him but, to bad, you're gonna fry right along with me and everyone here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

 

I don't want him in hell with me! Allah is such a bastard!

[dogmatically_challenged]

Well, it's not supposed to be a vacation you know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I want hell all to myself and other heathens! Allah totaly suxors!

 

Pascals wager is a bitch! If the xers god is real then I'll have to put up with clueless Islamics! If allah is god then xians!

[dogmatically_challenged]

Or it could be one of many "levels" of hell in other religions.  Maybe there are so many levels because of all the various beliefs not believing in the correct deity(ies).  Who knows?  I look forward to meeting you though on the logic and reason unbelievers, hell level.  :-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too! Satan and us heathens may fail in taking over the world in our one world government conspiracy but we will always have hell. hehe!

[Savedbyfaith]

SBF... I look forward to meeting you in Allah's hell. Afterall, you choose not to believe in his "truths." You had a choice to love and obey him but, to bad, you're gonna fry right along with me and everyone here.

 

[sBF] You look forward to eternal agony??????? I don't think you really believe it's real. Please read the account of the rich man who went to hell (Luke 16). He knows he made the wrong decision and is in agony. Is that what you really want? I wish we could talk about other matters, but I was not the one to bring up this subject. But maybe God wants you to hear it. Whatever it takes to turn your heart. You have no idea how serious this is. I only pray God will change your heart.

[crazy-tiger]

 

Stalin's victims had no control over the torture once it'd started, and for that we rightly call him evil.

 

[sBF] Yes.

When God casts people down for torture, his victims will have no control over the torture. For this, I rightly call him evil.

 

[sBF] Why? He gave them what they chose to have. How do you fault the parent for giving his child what he wants?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But Stalin gave his victims what they chose to have. How can you fault him for giving his citizens what they want?

 

God will be doing far worse than Stalin ever did...

There are some things worth martyring yourself for, while there are others that aren't. "Martyring" one's self to eternal torment for the sake of principle, or whatever, when a simple profession of faith could be made for eternal pleasure, in my view, is the height of pride and is irrational. OTOH, martyring yourself for something eternally good is another matter. Many Christians have martyred themselves and were willing to accept torture and death for the prize they will receive for holding fast to the their faith in Christ. Their martyship will be rewarded in heaven.

 

Now those who martyr themselves because they wouldn't obey Stalin (if in fact they really didn't) first suffer the pain and torture at the hands of Stalin's henchmen. When they die from the torture, they then proceed to eternal torment for not accepting the One who could have saved them from it. Look what the rich man said when he found out he was in hell. He begged for mercy, asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue. He was, and still is, in agony (Luke 16:23,24). Perhaps he was a proud man bent on principle. We don't know, but what difference did it make. His fate is sealed and he is in agony right now knowing that he made the wrong decision. So to this extent, you can't compare Stalin and God. But you do make some good points up to that exent. Nice going :-)

 

Yes, they could have chosen to obey Stalin. But what's left out of this equation is that God and Stalin are very different. One kills and tortures regardless what people do. God only lets those who refuse his mercy partake of the consequences of their choices. He is only being just.

Funny... Stalin only let those who refused his mercy partake of the consequenses of their choices. He was only being just...

 

 

Yes, God and Stalin are different... Stalin never forced anyone to go through eternal torture for not obeying him...

Well thanks for the compliment of calling me human. Some have said otherwise. I don't get too many compliments around here. I urge you to really think about this man in Luke who knows he made the wrong choice and is eternally regretting it. Repent and give your life to Christ. I guarantee you will never regret "that" decision.

I did the first time... the moment I realised that God was the most evil being that could ever exist.

 

 

Oh, and I thought about that "man"...

23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

 

    25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Notice what it says... If you get good things in this life, you get tortured in the next.

It says NOTHING about being there because he didn't believe, just because he was rich...

Notice also that there's NO WAY OUT!

 

 

God tortures people for eternity simply for doing well in life.

 

A real sodding "good" God you worship there...

[crazy-tiger]

SBF...  I look forward to meeting you in Allah's hell. Afterall, you choose not to believe in his "truths."  You had a choice to love and obey him but, to bad, you're gonna fry right along with me and everyone here.

[sBF] You look forward to eternal agony??????? I don't think you really believe it's real. Please read the account of the rich man who went to hell (Luke 16). He knows he made the wrong decision and is in agony. Is that what you really want? I wish we could talk about other matters, but I was not the one to bring up this subject. But maybe God wants you to hear it. Whatever it takes to turn your heart. You have no idea how serious this is. I only pray God will change your heart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He knows he was a rich man and that God is punishing him for it, while Lazarus was a begger and gets rewarded...

 

 

Todays lesson from SBF... "Try to better yourself and my God will slap you back down."

[dogmatically_challenged]

thankful,Jul 24 2005, 08:27

SBF...  I look forward to meeting you in Allah's hell. Afterall, you choose not to believe in his "truths."  You had a choice to love and obey him but, to bad, you're gonna fry right along with me and everyone here.

 

[sBF] You look forward to eternal agony???????  I don't think you really believe it's real.  Please read the account of the rich man who went to hell (Luke 16).  He knows he made the wrong decision and is in agony. Is that what you really want?  I wish we could talk about other matters, but I was not the one to bring up this subject.  But maybe God wants you to hear it.  Whatever it takes to turn your heart.  You have no idea how serious this is.  I only pray God will change your heart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You look forward to eternal agony??????? I don't think you really believe it's real. Please read the account of the rich man who went to hell (Luke 16). He knows he made the wrong decision and is in agony. Is that what you really want? I wish we could talk about other matters, but I was not the one to bring up this subject. But maybe Allah wants you to hear it. Whatever it takes to turn your heart. You have no idea how serious this is. I only pray Allah will change your heart.

 

 

Damn boy. Get a freekin clue.

[Savedbyfaith]

 

Does a woman who has the "choice" between getting her head blown off and giving a mugger all her money have a self-inflicted robbery (or shot to the face)?

A choice between equally unappeasing options is no choice at all

 

SBF] Sorry about the quote stuff. I'm trying to get it right. Equally appeasing?? In the first place, no one expects to be robbed or have their head blown off. There is no advance knowledge. Once confronted, she has the choice of bankruptcy or death. Only a fool would choose the latter. The one who chooses hell through rejecting Christ, does have advance warning. Only a fool would choose to reject Him knowing the consequences of that choice. Your scenario is not comparable to a person understanding the consequences of his wrong decision to reject Jesus Christ. Unlike the unsuspecting victim above, he chooses to suffer eternally. The woman, in your story, can choose to go free, although broke. That's a no-brainer.

[crazy-tiger]

Does a woman who has the "choice" between getting her head blown off and giving a mugger all her money have a self-inflicted robbery (or shot to the face)?

A choice between equally unappeasing options is no choice at all

SBF] Sorry about the quote stuff. I'm trying to get it right. Equally appeasing?? In the first place, no one expects to be robbed or have their head blown off. There is no advance knowledge. Once confronted, she has the choice of bankruptcy or death. Only a fool would choose the latter. The one who chooses hell through rejecting Christ, does have advance warning. Only a fool would choose to reject Him knowing the consequences of that choice. Your scenario is not comparable to a person understanding the consequences of his wrong decision to reject Jesus Christ. Unlike the unsuspecting victim above, he chooses to suffer eternally. The woman, in your story, can choose to go free, although broke. That's a no-brainer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The one who chooses hell through rejecting Allah, has advance warning. Only a fool would choose to reject Him knowing the consequences of that choice.

 

 

Of course, God is all-knowing... He knows what will happen before he creates anything.

That means that he knew that billions would "reject" him. It means that he knew he was creating humans KNOWING that he'd have to torture them. It means that no-one chooses to reject God... It had already been decided before we were born.

 

Only an evil God would do that...

[Casey]

Of course, God is all-knowing... He knows what will happen before he creates anything.

That means that he knew that billions would "reject" him. It means that he knew he was creating humans KNOWING that he'd have to torture them. It means that no-one chooses to reject God... It had already been decided before we were born.

 

I do believe that's called Predestination by Calvinists.

 

As I have said before, it turns out that you can be an absolute rotter for your entire life. You can commit every crime in the calendar; you can in fact act up to the point where your execution would be a public benefaction, and yet, because you accept christ on your deathbed or in a condemned cell somewhere, you go to heaven. A certain Jeffery Dahmer springs to mind.

 

On the other hand you may have spent your entire life living a productive existence, albeit committing a few so-called "sins" here and there, but because you do not accept christ you go to hell, isn't that right?

 

D'you know what's ironic about all this? Assuming you had in fact lived an infamously criminal life like Dahmer's, well, if you had any sense of justice you would say on your deathbed, "What, accept christ and go to heaven? No thanks! I'll take what's coming to me and go to the hell I damn well deserve!"

 

However, if you were as immoral as such criminals were and are, your eye would as always be on the main chance and you would go for the easy money I suppose.

Casey

[Savedbyfaith]

Actually, I think you do work just by turning on the computer, and sitting down and writing. You better check with an orthodox Judaist, to check that you're not commiting a sin that you didn't know about.

 

[sBF] Why would flipping a switch be work? Wouldn't just sitting down and getting up be as much work? And how about raising your hand? All this requires effort and all without sweat and remuneration (see the legalism?). Let me take this to a higher absurdity. I'm Jewish and we're at home on the Sabbath when suddenly a tree limb comes flying through the window and pins my dauther on the floor. She can't move the limb and she is in great pain. What do I do? The law says no work and moving that limb would be work according to your illustration above. Jesus addressed the legalism of the pharisees in the parable of a man's sheep falling into a ditch on the Sabbath. Under pharisaical law, he would have to leave it there until the Sabbath was over. But Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt. 12:12). Who was right?

 

But I'm having fun with my computer, so how could that be work? :-) But thanks for the advice. I wonder if the Judaist understands that if he is to obey the law, then he must obey all 613 of the Mosaic laws without skipping a beat to avoid being cursed (Deut. 27:26, Gal. 3:10). Would you agree he has a problem?

[Ouroboros]

SBF...  I look forward to meeting you in Allah's hell. Afterall, you choose not to believe in his "truths."  You had a choice to love and obey him but, to bad, you're gonna fry right along with me and everyone here.

 

[sBF] You look forward to eternal agony??????? I don't think you really believe it's real.

Heh? You said wha'? Hehe! You did! HEHEHE! HAHAHAHAHAHA! EXACTLY! WE DON'T BELIEVE IT'S REAL!!! YOU DIDN'T GET IT UNTIL NOW!!!

 

DUUUUUUUUUUUH!

 

Please read the account of the rich man who went to hell (Luke 16).  He knows he made the wrong decision and is in agony. Is that what you really want?  I wish we could talk about other matters, but I was not the one to bring up this subject.  But maybe God wants you to hear it.  Whatever it takes to turn your heart.  You have no idea how serious this is.  I only pray God will change your heart.

Yup. The rich man fell love and compassion for his brothers and his family and urged Abraham to tell his family of Hell, instead of asking Abraham to be freed from it. This was an example of the mans true and pure heart of love and altruism, and still God kept him in punishment in Hell. Abraham show an uttermost example of arrogance and just flip the man off. It's a true masterpiece of how arrogant, obnoxious and selfish the Christian religion is in its core. Hell is not Justice, it's just God's furnice to warm his bathtub water, and he doesn't care who goes there. According to the Bible it might even be you...

[Ouroboros]

Actually, I think you do work just by turning on the computer, and sitting down and writing. You better check with an orthodox Judaist, to check that you're not commiting a sin that you didn't know about.

 

[sBF] Why would flipping a switch be work? Wouldn't just sitting down and getting up be as much work? And how about raising your hand? All this requires effort and all without sweat and remuneration (see the legalism?). Let me take this to a higher absurdity. I'm Jewish and we're at home on the Sabbath when suddenly a tree limb comes flying through the window and pins my dauther on the floor. She can't move the limb and she is in great pain. What do I do? The law says no work and moving that limb would be work according to your illustration above. Jesus addressed the legalism of the pharisees in the parable of a man's sheep falling into a ditch on the Sabbath. Under pharisaical law, he would have to leave it there until the Sabbath was over. But Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt. 12:12). Who was right?

 

But I'm having fun with my computer, so how could that be work? :-) But thanks for the advice. I wonder if the Judaist understands that if he is to obey the law, then he must obey all 613 of the Mosaic laws without skipping a beat to avoid being cursed (Deut. 27:26, Gal. 3:10). Would you agree he has a problem?

 

Flipping a switch is work. And it is not a "good act of saving your daughter", that's an outrageous comparison!

 

I know you believe that you can sin and ask Jesus for forgivness, but everytime you work on Sabbath, you are comitting a sin. Sure it can be taken to the extremes, but you're not supposed to have "fun" on Sabbath. You can make excuses, but God doesn't care about excuses, either you sin or you're not. Sure ask Jesus for forgivness again and again, but each Saturday you do something to piss of the man up there.

 

The Judaist knows that this is required to follow the law. That's what Paul says in Romans, that no one can follow the law. The intention of the law was that we would have to sin over and over again, and never be without sin. That is a system made to create frustration and feeling of incompetence all the time. It's like telling your kids that they're never enough, and good for nothing, every day. They will feel insecure and inferior all the time.

[Cerise]

 

Does a woman who has the "choice" between getting her head blown off and giving a mugger all her money have a self-inflicted robbery (or shot to the face)?

A choice between equally unappeasing options is no choice at all

 

SBF] Sorry about the quote stuff. I'm trying to get it right. Equally appeasing?? In the first place, no one expects to be robbed or have their head blown off. There is no advance knowledge.

 

Having some loser jump out at you on the street and say "uh, yeah, you're going to hell unless you believe _____" is not "advanced knowledge. Unless you consider the ranting of islamic jihadists that enemies of Allah shall perish to be "advanced warning" as well.

 

Once confronted, she has the choice of bankruptcy or death. Only a fool would choose the latter.

 

Why don't we make the choice more difficult....rape or death. Still going to argue that she "brough rape upon herself" by choosing not to die?

 

The one who chooses hell through rejecting Christ, does have advance warning. Only a fool would choose to reject Him knowing the consequences of that choice.

 

Did you know that Jesus himself said that those who call other people "fools" are in danger of hellfire? Welcome to hellfire, my friend. Try to remove your foot from your mouth.

 

Your scenario is not comparable to a person understanding the consequences of his wrong decision to reject Jesus Christ. Unlike the unsuspecting victim above, he chooses to suffer eternally. The woman, in your story, can choose to go free, although broke. That's a no-brainer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your pride is unbelievable. You ASSume that someone who would reject your megalomaniac God is making a "wrong" decision. Well Muslims think you are making a "wrong" decision by worshiping the lesser prophet, Jesus. You have no more authority in the matter then they do. Enjoy your arrogance. The "no-brain" part is something you already have covered I see.

[dogmatically_challenged]

 

Does a woman who has the "choice" between getting her head blown off and giving a mugger all her money have a self-inflicted robbery (or shot to the face)?

A choice between equally unappeasing options is no choice at all

 

SBF] Sorry about the quote stuff. I'm trying to get it right. Equally appeasing?? In the first place, no one expects to be robbed or have their head blown off. There is no advance knowledge. Once confronted, she has the choice of bankruptcy or death. Only a fool would choose the latter. The one who chooses hell through rejecting Christ, does have advance warning. Only a fool would choose to reject Him knowing the consequences of that choice. Your scenario is not comparable to a person understanding the consequences of his wrong decision to reject Jesus Christ. Unlike the unsuspecting victim above, he chooses to suffer eternally. The woman, in your story, can choose to go free, although broke. That's a no-brainer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I am a powerful wizard. If you give me your life savings at some point before you die I will save you from death. I have a majik elixer that will make you young again. If you meet my demands you will be immortal.

 

If you don't give me all your life savings before you die, I will send giants over to your house to eat you ever so slowly. You have been warned. If you defy me you have only yourself to blame. You have a choice to make buster. Oh yea, almost forgot. I love you.

 

Believe me?

No?

Why not?

[thomas]

Yes, God and Stalin are different... Stalin never forced anyone to go through eternal torture for not obeying him...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

According to this article http://www.atheistsunited.org/wordsofwisdo.../communism.html Stalin had many godly qualities. So if the Christian God is a cruel monster, then Stalin is also a monster. But if the Christian God is innocent (just giving people what they want), then Stalin must also have been a very very innocent man.

 

Actually, the former Soviet Union must have been close to the Christian paradise.

 

From the article:

 

Clearly, Stalins tyranny was based on the totalitarian premises that he learned from religion: Unquestioning obedience, reverence for a deity-figure (in human form) as well as a pie-in-the-sky utopian vision. His government never tolerated freedom of thought. Stalins policies were the antithesis of atheist philosophy.

[Saviourmachine]

Sorry about the quote stuff.  I'm trying to get it right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Help!

 

This doesn't work!

 

Advice:

1. Delete automatic markup. First and last line when you reply. It's gonna interfer with your bb code if you don't know how to handle it.
   
2. Use the quotes in square-brackets and don't forget to end with /quote in square brackets. So use the / sign, the slash, the solidus, the oblique, the diagonal, the separatrix, the shilling mark, the stroke, the virgule, the slant, the forward slash!
   
3. Use the Preview Post button to check the layout of your new post.
   
4. Use the BB Code Help on the left.
   
5. If you have questions you can't state them directly using the quotes in brackets because that would be regarded as a quote! Make for example a typographic mistake* or use code brackets around them.
   

*So, for example w=u:

 

[qwote]This doesn't work.[qwote]

 

[qwote]And this does work![/qwote]

 

Try this at home.

 

PS: How old are you?

[Vigile]

[sBF]  Why would flipping a switch be work? Wouldn't just sitting down and getting up be as much work?  And how about raising your hand?  All this requires effort and all without sweat and remuneration (see the legalism?).  Let me take this to a higher absurdity.  I'm Jewish and we're at home on the Sabbath when suddenly a tree limb comes flying through the window and pins my dauther on the floor.  She can't move the limb and she is in great pain.  What do I do?  The law says no work and moving that limb would be work according to your illustration above.  Jesus addressed the legalism of the pharisees in the parable of a man's sheep falling into a ditch on the Sabbath.  Under pharisaical law, he would have to leave it there until the Sabbath was over.  But Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt. 12:12).  Who was right?

 

 

Your god left a lot up to interpretation didn't he?

 

I suppose there will be a test on judgement day to determine who passed and really did become true christians.

[Vigile]

 

Does a woman who has the "choice" between getting her head blown off and giving a mugger all her money have a self-inflicted robbery (or shot to the face)?

A choice between equally unappeasing options is no choice at all

 

 

Uh, did it escape your attention that in the metaphor you are representing god is a mugger, ergo, god is the bad guy demanding a damned if you do, damned if you don't choice to an innocent victim?

[Mythra]

I don't believe the words in savedbyfear's bible. It's obvious he doesn't either. Praying that God would turn our hearts. If God exists, he already has. He's hardened our hearts. To pray for our hearts to be softened is to pray for something that is against the will of God.

 

Romans 9:18-21

 

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, Why did you make me like this? Does the potter not have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

 

So, one of two things is true: either biblegod doesn't exist, or he has intentionally hardened my heart.

 

Either way, it's EAT DRINK AND BE MERRY for now.

[Mythra]

[sBF] You look forward to eternal agony??????? I don't think you really believe it's real.

Heh? You said wha'? Hehe! You did! HEHEHE! HAHAHAHAHAHA! EXACTLY! WE DON'T BELIEVE IT'S REAL!!! YOU DIDN'T GET IT UNTIL NOW!!!

 

DUUUUUUUUUUUH!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good one, Hans. That IS really funny. 18 pages of dialogue, and the dude just now comes to the epiphany that we don't believe in his god or his hell.

[Savedbyfaith]

 

Your god left a lot up to interpretation didn't he?

 

[sBF] Not when it comes to being right with him.

 

I suppose there will be a test on judgement day to determine who passed and really did become true christians.

 

[sBF] Hello Vigile. According to the Bible, there will be no tests on judgment day. What a person does before that day is what matters. Being right with God is not a matter of "doing," but trusting; not works, but forgiveness and faith. Law was not given by God to save anyone, for through it comes the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20). No one is able to keep all God's laws all the time. That is what he would require from the one who wants to justify himself before God. In other words, perfection. It is an impossibility. Since we are all sinners, God will accept those whose sins have been forgiven, not based on how many laws one keeps.

 

In the OT, King David said "Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him...." (Ps. 32: 1,2). The only blessing for obeying God's laws is a happy life for those whose sins are forgiven. That forgiveness comes through Jesus Christ who died for all our sins.

 

Be blessed

[Mythra]

HOLY SHIT! These guys don't even believe in hell!

 

Damn. we need an emoticon with a light bulb coming on

[Savedbyfaith]

 

EVERY SINGLE argument that you have given us on "why" we should yet AGAIN believe in Jesus, I PUT BACK ON YOU in regards to Allah.

 

[sBF] Allah is not God. God has a Son whose name is Jesus Christ. I have asked many times for your understanding of John 6:39, 10:28,29 and 18:9. How about now :-)