Definition of Sin

[NotBlinded]

Wow...there is really no reason to try to talk reason with SBF. He is lost to reason.

[Savedbyfaith]

You are a hypocrite SBF, because you use the Pascal's Wager "what if it is real" for your religion only, when I showed you that it could very well apply to you too.

What if the other hell/hell's are real? Why should we cave to your beliefs and not others?

 

[sBF] I'm not asking you to "cave" to my beliefs. That would be like forcing you to believe. You must come to Christ by your own free will.

 

Other religions say that other religions are wrong. You refuse to see, you are one sided, it applies to everyone who isn't a Christian but not to the Christian. You are holding unbelievers and those of other than Christian beliefs, to something that you yourself do not adhere to concerning "what if's" of other religions.

 

[sBF] It is not hypocrisy if I firmly believe that it is not possible for anyone who does not have Christ to avoid hell. What you see as hypocrisy is my conviction of truth. However, I can understand why non-belivers would think this way. They will understand that hell is real when they take their last breath. That is not a hypocritcal statement if it is true, or even if I believe it to be true.

[NotBlinded]

[sBF]  It is not hypocrisy if I firmly believe that it is not possible for anyone who does not have Christ  to avoid hell.  What you see as hypocrisy is my conviction of truth.  However, I can understand why non-belivers would think this way. They will understand that hell is real when they take their last breath.  That is not a hypocritcal statement if it is true, or even if I believe it to be true.

I was really going to try to be nice, but you are getting on my nerves. You are arrogant and a blight on humanity. It is the believers like you that cause humanity to fight and kill. "They will understand that hell is real when they take their last breath." Who the hell are you to know what your god, or any god will do? Did your god appoint you judge?

[Guest Priapus]

John 6:39  And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

 

This verse was written in the early second century as an antithesis to Hebrews 6:4-6. The writer put these words into the mouth of Jesus so that it would be believed that they carried more weight.  Looks like it worked in your case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That's powerful stuff. You gotta source for this claim? I hope (and bet) you do.

 

 

 

 

 

Can you be a believer, and sin and go to hell for it?

 

[sBF] No, because the believers sins have been taken away through repentance and faith in Christ. But he will sin occasionally. When he does, he confesses and his sin is forgiven (1 John 1:19). This cleanses him of all unrighteousness.

 

What happens if the believer doesn't confess?

 

Please forgive me if this was addressed already. I lack the discipline and patience to search 11 pages of this thread for the answer.

 

 

I will no more call "Jesus" a hypocrit, than I will call Santa Claus unfair for not bringing me a "GI Joe with a Kung Fu grip".

 

With life-like hair and beard?

[Savedbyfaith]

Awww....What's a matter? Are we sad cause not everyone believes in your Jesus?

 

I love REAL people, animals, life, etc.

 

[sBF] I would think your love for these things would temper your anger since they seem to give you fulfillment. I don't understand how you can be so happy with the things you mention and then harbor such hatred for somebody just because they have faith in someone you believe doesn't exist.

 

Not inhumane mythical religious deities or anything else that they represent. IF Jesus were real, I'd hate him though because he threatens eternal torture,

 

[sBF] If you were driving down a dark road on a stormy night and saw a sign warning that the bridge was out, would you not be grateful to the person who put it there?

 

I'd hate YHWH because he's a monster.

 

[sBF] The "monster" is warning you the bridge is out. Your pride is causing you to ignore it. "Pride goes before destruction." (Prov. 16:18)

 

I hate Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden and any other monster real monster that is/has roamed the face of this earth............ And I feel not one bit bad about it either

 

[sBF] So Jesus, if he existed, would be a monster for telling you the truth.

[NotBlinded]

[sBF]  If you were driving down a dark road on a stormy night and saw a sign warning that the bridge was out, would you not be grateful to the person who put it there?

Would you? I doubt it...you would probably thank god for it wouldn't you?

[Checkmate]

No. In this I MUST correct you.

 

Our arguments ARE in fact with YOU. We don't believe in "Jesus". I would not be so insane as to "argue", or be angry with, "someone" I don't believe exists.

 

[sBF] Excuse me? That is precisely why you hate him. In your heart you know he really does exists. "Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light (Jesus), and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (John 3:19,20)

 

HUH? NOW you're going to psychoanalyze me, and tell me what I believe, and what I KNOW in my heart?!? Grrrr! {Edited in advance to prevent flaming!}

 

Okay...that's it. I broke my Number One rule. I tried to reason with a Xian, and the result was standard insanity. My bad. Won't happen again.

 

Reasoning with Xians is like reasoning with patients of insane asylums. No matter how much sense you make, they insist that YOU argue from THEIR position of unreality.

 

Sorry, dude. I don't have the training or stomach to deal with mental patients. I will now leave you to someone else's care.

 

May the IPU help you. (Closest thing an atheist has to a "prayer", and just as ineffective.)

 

[i hope the rest of you have fun with this nutcase, cause I'm done.]

[Guest Priapus]

[sBF]  If you were driving down a dark road on a stormy night and saw a sign warning that the bridge was out, would you not be grateful to the person who put it there?

.

.

.

The "monster" is warning you the bridge is out.  Your pride is causing you to ignore it.  "Pride goes before destruction."  (Prov. 16:18)

.

.

.

So Jesus, if he existed, would be a monster for telling you the truth.

 

 

Were the bridge out, I could venture further, albeit carefully down the road and see that indeed, it was out. BibleGod and the Jesus warn of something utterly unsubstantiated. Life after death is not a compelling argument, despite your menacing "They will understand that hell is real when they take their last breath."

 

 

It's similar to the "Protection" rackets run by organized crime. "Pay us $100/week and we'll make sure nothing bad happens to your store, see?" then they break your windows if you don't pay.

 

Since I never saw any of the "good stuff" promised by the Bible when I was a believer, I don't find the "bad stuff" all that intimidating.

 

 

Can you be a believer, and sin and go to hell for it?

 

No, because the believers sins have been taken away through repentance and faith in Christ. But he will sin occasionally. When he does, he confesses and his sin is forgiven (1 John 1:19). This cleanses him of all unrighteousness.

 

What happens if the believer doesn't confess?

 

Wassa verdict on this?

[Savedbyfaith]

I was really going to try to be nice, but you are getting on my nerves.

 

[sBF] Yes, truth does have a way of grating on our spirits :-) Actually, it is a good sign because you are being convicted, even though you may not realize it.

 

"Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (John 3:19,20).

 

You are arrogant and a blight on humanity.

 

[sBF] I am neither, rather a soft, refreshing breeze in the storms of anger, hate, strife and darkness :-)

 

It is the believers like you that cause humanity to fight and kill.

 

[sBF] No, it is people with anger, hate, strife and darkness in their hearts that cause them to fight and kill.

 

"They will understand that hell is real when they take their last breath."

 

Who the hell are you to know what your god, or any god will do?

 

[sBF] Silly :-) Don't you know it is written (Matt. 25:46).

 

Did your god appoint you judge?

 

[sBF] "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world." (1 Cor. 6:2)

[Savedbyfaith]

HUH? NOW you're going to psychoanalyze me, and tell me what I believe, and what I KNOW in my heart?!? Grrrr! {Edited in advance to prevent flaming!}

 

[sBF] No, just shining the light where it is needed. It is good that you "Grrrrrr." It shows that you recognize light and truth shining in the darkness.

 

Okay...that's it. I broke my Number One rule. I tried to reason with a Xian, and the result was standard insanity. My bad. Won't happen again.

 

[sBF] Hey man, don't quit. Good things are about to happen.

 

Reasoning with Xians is like reasoning with patients of insane asylums. No matter how much sense you make, they insist that YOU argue from THEIR position of unreality.

 

Sorry, dude. I don't have the training or stomach to deal with mental patients. I will now leave you to someone else's care.

 

[sBF] You know where to find me :-)

[NotBlinded]

[sBF] Yes, truth does have a way of grating on our spirits :-)  Actually, it is a good sign because you are being convicted, even though you may not realize it.

You should be convicted.

 

[sBF] I am neither, rather a soft, refreshing breeze in the storms of anger, hate, strife and  darkness :-)

See...you are delusional.

 

[sBF]  No, it is people with anger, hate, strife and darkness in their hearts that cause them to fight and kill.

And I wonder what causes that.

 

[sBF] Silly :-) Don't you know it is written (Matt. 25:46).

It's written that you are the judge? Sorry...I don't see that in that verse.

 

[sBF] "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world." (1 Cor. 6:2)

Oh forgive me! I didn't realize you were a saint.

[Vixentrox]

Assuming the bridge was out, it was god that blew it up in the first place. Nice try.

[Mythra]

The four gospels, eyewitnesses, historical writings.  The Babylonian Talmud records that Jesus was crucified.  ("Sanhedrin," vol. 3 of Nezikin, Babylonian Talmud, edited by Isidore Epstein, reprint (London: Soncino, 1938), p. 281

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do tell. (about the Talmudic references of Jesus.) There are six references in the Talmud referring to a Yeshu (Jesus) . Four are of Yeshu ben Pandira (80 BCE). This Yeshu was called "Yeshu the Notzri"(some think this refers to being of the Nazarene sect). He was executed the day before Passover by hanging.

 

Two Talmudic references relate to Yeshu ben Stada (100 CE). Ben Stada was a practicer of black magic. This Yeshu had a mother named Miriam and was also executed for idolatry on the day before Passover. (by stoning)

[NotBlinded]

Look...I found a definition of Savedbyfaith:

 

The result of using faith consistently is the complete inability to think. Without any criteria for accepting a statement as true, every random idea, whether true or false, would be just as likely to be accepted. Contradictions would exist. No higher level abstractions could be made. Faith nullifies the mind. To the degree ideas are taken on faith, the process of thinking is subverted.

[Ouroboros]

Heh! I haven't been in this thread for a couple of days, and I guess I have to say what TJR said: "I have created a monster!". Hehe.

 

See if I can catch up on everything that's been said.

 

SBF, it would be really, really, reeeeeeaaally nice if you learned how to use the quote functions. It takes awfully long to read some of your responses. And sometimes I'm not sure if it's you or someone else saying certain things.

[LloydDobler]

I don't understand how you can be so happy with the things you mention and then harbor such hatred for somebody just because they have faith in someone you believe doesn't exist.

 

It has absolutely zero to do with your faith. It has to do with the fact that you don't think or listen. You just barf out platitudes.

 

You're a total moron. One day if you're lucky, enough of your prayers will fail, and a few new neurons in your brain will fire. And you'll be disgusted with your behavior here instead of gleeful and oblivious.

 

It's time for you to leave. Obtuse rhetoric whores are not welcome here.

[NotBlinded]

It has absolutely zero to do with your faith.  It has to do with the fact that you don't think or listen.  You just barf out platitudes.

 

You're a total moron.  One day if you're lucky, enough of your prayers will fail, and a few new neurons in your brain will fire.  And you'll be disgusted with your behavior here instead of gleeful and oblivious.

 

It's time for you to leave. Obtuse rhetoric whores are not welcome here.

I second that. I think Losttofaith is beyond hope.

[Ouroboros]

I was really going to try to be nice, but you are getting on my nerves.

 

[sBF] Yes, truth does have a way of grating on our spirits :-) Actually, it is a good sign because you are being convicted, even though you may not realize it.

 

"Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (John 3:19,20).

 

You are arrogant and a blight on humanity.

 

[sBF] I am neither, rather a soft, refreshing breeze in the storms of anger, hate, strife and darkness :-)

 

It is the believers like you that cause humanity to fight and kill.

 

[sBF] No, it is people with anger, hate, strife and darkness in their hearts that cause them to fight and kill.

 

"They will understand that hell is real when they take their last breath."

 

Who the hell are you to know what your god, or any god will do?

 

[sBF] Silly :-) Don't you know it is written (Matt. 25:46).

 

Did your god appoint you judge?

 

[sBF] "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world." (1 Cor. 6:2)

Damn, you sound just like the Muslims I've been discussing with... Same kind of rhetoric. You're not a Muslim by chance?

[Savedbyfaith]

Were the bridge out, I could venture further, albeit carefully down the road and see that indeed, it was out.

 

[sBF] I think you get my point.

 

Bible God and Jesus warn of something utterly unsubstantiated.

 

[sBF] There have been cases of people being clinically dead and then restored to life. Here is an excerpt from a website you may want to visit: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

 

"Several years ago a book was published, entitled Beyond Death's Door by Dr. Maurice Rawlings. Dr. Rawlings, a specialist in Internal Medicine and Cardiovascular Disease, resuscitated many people who had been clinically dead. Dr. Rawlings, a devout atheist, "considered all religion "hocus-pocus" and death nothing more than a painless extinction". But something happened in 1977 that brought a dramatic change in the life of Dr. Rawlings! He was resuscitating a man, terrified and screaming — descending down into flames:

 

"Each time he regained heartbeat and respiration, the patient screamed, "I am in hell!" He was terrified and pleaded with me to help him. I was scared to death. . . Then I noticed a genuinely alarmed look on his face. He had a terrified look worse than the expression seen in death! This patient had a grotesque grimace expressing sheer horror! His pupils were dilated, and he was perspiring and trembling — he looked as if his hair was "on end."

 

Then still another strange thing happened. He said,"Don't you understand? I am in hell. . . Don't let me go back to hell!" . . .the man was serious, and it finally occurred to me that he was indeed in trouble. He was in a panic like I had never seen before."

(Maurice Rawlings, Beyond Death's Door,(Thomas Nelson Inc., 1979) p. 3).

 

Here is another site you can visit:

http://www.seekfind.net/Amazing_Facts/Note...l_Evidence.html

 

In his book, "Why I Believe," D. James Kennedy records his interview with one who has been there: I have heard the testimony of a man who went to hell. He is a living man, and his testimony is on tape. He has given me his permission to use it in any way that I wish. He described himself as an atheist. He believed neither in soul nor spirit nor angel nor God. "When you are dead," he said, "you are dead like a dog." One day he planned to crawl into a hole and pull the top in over him. He did not believe in heaven or hell or God. But then he did, in a very enlightening way--he died!

 

Not long ago he had a cardiac arrest, and the doctors pronounced him clinically dead. (In the last year or so numerous scientists have reported on more than five hundred people who have been pronounced clinically dead and have been resuscitated. Whatever that means, we may not wholly know, but the reports that they bring back have convinced scientists that there is life beyond death.) Later he was resuscitated, but he told me that during his "death" he experienced the following: He sank into a realm of darkness, a place of dark shadows--yet still he had a body. He found himself in great agony pushing a huge stone into a pit. (The Bible speaks of a pit.) He was in great pain, and there was nothing he could do to diminish it. "If you got shot in the arm," he said, "you could at least grab your arm and get some slight lessening of the pain, but not so with this." I asked, "Where was it? Was it localized?" His answer was, "No, it was everywhere. I am quite certain that if I had cut my throat I would not have lessened that pain at all. When I questioned how severe the pain was, he said, "It was worse than anything I have ever experienced in this world." I thought perhaps he had never known much pain. I asked, "Have you ever really suffered any pain in this world?" He said, "Well, when I was nine years old, a freight train ran over my leg and left it hanging by a tendon. Somehow I picked it up, dragged myself to a crossing, and was finally picked up by a man in a car. I never passed out but by blood squirted all over his windshield as he drove me to a hospital. I was never unconscious." "How did that pain compare to the time when the doctor said you were dead?" I asked. "It was insignificant," he answered. "I wouldn't even compare it." I told him, "I once burned my hand rather severely and experienced a pain unlike anything I have ever known before or since. Did you ever burn yourself?" He said, "Yes, I knocked a can of gasoline off a shelf over a candle onto my leg and set my remaining leg on fire. As a result I spent several weeks in the hospital." He raised his pants leg and showed me the scars. I said, "I know of nothing in this world that compares to the pain of burning. How did the pain you experienced when you were dead compare with that?" He answered, "It was one thousand times worse than when my leg was on fire! I tried every way I knew to explain that away, but everything dissolved before my attempts to do it. I did not believe in hell before, and I did not want to believe in it then. On the face of this earth, no matter what you did to me, I don't think you could experience the pain that I experienced in that hospital. I asked, "What do you think that was?" "Why, I feel that it definitely had to be something other than on this earth, so the only place I can think of is that there must be a hell, and I was in it." He told me that when he thought about that after he got out of the hospital, he began to tremble with an uncontrollable trembling. Hell is real!

 

Life after death is not a compelling argument, despite your menacing "They will understand that hell is real when they take their last breath."

 

[sBF] You can judge for yourself based on these testimonies and what the Bible says about hell.

 

It's similar to the "Protection" rackets run by organized crime.

 

[sBF] Do you really believe that?

 

Since I never saw any of the "good stuff" promised by the Bible when I was a believer, I don't find the "bad stuff" all that intimidating.

 

[sBF] Did you never read the Psalms? Would you let me show you some of the "good stuff?"

 

What happens if the believer doesn't confess?

 

[sBF] Loss of fellowship with God. You cannot belong to God and expect his blessing in unconfessed sin and repentance. This does not mean loss of salvation, rather loss of fellowship.

[Savedbyfaith]

Damn, you sound just like the Muslims I've been discussing with... Same kind of rhetoric. You're not a Muslim by chance?

 

[sBF] No, just a sinner saved by grace (through faith:-)

[Savedbyfaith]

It has absolutely zero to do with your faith. It has to do with the fact that you don't think or listen.

 

[sBF} So that is why you hate me? Could it be that you're the one who is not listening?

 

You just barf out platitudes.

 

[sBF] Let's call them truth platitudes.

 

You're a total moron.

 

[sBF] Well, I've been called worse. This is almost a compliment :-)

 

One day if you're lucky, enough of your prayers will fail, and a few new neurons in your brain will fire. And you'll be disgusted with your behavior here instead of gleeful and oblivious.

 

It's time for you to leave. Obtuse rhetoric whores are not welcome here.

 

[sBF] I'll leave if you all want. But you know what? I don't think you really want that.

[Guest Priapus]

It's similar to the "Protection" rackets run by organized crime.

 

Do you really believe that?

Yes, I do.

 

 

Since I never saw any of the "good stuff" promised by the Bible when I was a believer, I don't find the "bad stuff" all that intimidating.

 

Did you never read the Psalms? Would you let me show you some of the "good stuff?"

I've read the Psalms, the whole Bible several times through. I even had some of the Psalms committed to memory for a while. Show on, showman.

 

 

What happens if the believer doesn't confess?

 

Loss of fellowship with God. You cannot belong to God and expect his blessing in unconfessed sin and repentance. This does not mean loss of salvation, rather loss of fellowship.

Please define "fellowship" as you use it here, and give concrete examples of how a believer would experience it.

[Ouroboros]

Awww....What's a matter?  Are we sad cause not everyone believes in your Jesus? 

 

I love REAL people, animals, life, etc.

 

[sBF] I would think your love for these things would temper your anger since they seem to give you fulfillment.  I don't understand how you can be so happy with the things you mention and then harbor such hatred for somebody just because they have faith in someone you believe doesn't exist. 

Maybe because the people representing the group of people you're referring to maybe hurt her, and the explanation to their bad behaviour lies in the their belief based on a mythological book.

 

You have your independent look and interpretation of the Holy Book, but since you're not alone, and many Christians don't follow the book but their own sinful ways, they become really bad witnesses for their faith. So even if your view of the Bible could be correct, you still would be very alone in the masses of Christians persecution people of different beliefs.

 

Not inhumane mythical religious deities or anything else that they represent.  IF Jesus were real, I'd hate him though because he threatens eternal torture,

 

[sBF]  If you were driving down a dark road on a stormy night and saw a sign warning that the bridge was out, would you not be grateful to the person who put it there?

Unfortunately most Christians don't read the sign, and they forced people to ride along in the car while they're driving. So no, I don't care about how good hearted Cal-trans are, but why the heck the driver insisted on taking this road, and then negelected to read the sign.

 

Many Christians don't read the Bible, nor do they care to. Why is that a case if they truly believe the Bible be the handbook to survive their faith, and the key to go to Heaven? Read the Bible and survive, don't read it and die! And yet people don't read it, but claim to be Christians.

 

Something is out of phase between fiction and reality here. If the Bible was true, it would be in phase, or synchronized, with peoples attitudes and behaviour, and since it's not, something is not right.

 

I'd hate YHWH because he's a monster. 

 

[sBF]  The "monster" is warning you the bridge is out.  Your pride is causing you to ignore it.  "Pride goes before destruction."  (Prov. 16:18)

And you haven't headed the warning from the Quran, have you? So you're going to Hell as well...

 

I hate Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden and any other monster real monster that is/has roamed the face of this earth............ And I feel not one bit bad about it either

 

[sBF] So Jesus, if he existed, would be a monster for telling you the truth.

He would be a monster if he was lying and inderectly causing many wars and many innocent peoples death.

[Savedbyfaith]

Oh, my BLOB! It is Invictus!

 

Anger? What anger? Anger would describe a beast who would torture people for eternity...oh, that's Jesus, he is the king of anger. Oh, then we have biblegod, who has little temper fit's too. Who is the "somebody" that I hate? Did I say that I "hate" you? No, so don't slander me.

 

[sBF] Oh please, Thankful. Let not your pee-pickin heart be deceived. If there was a way you could reach though your screen and pop me one, you would do it. The hate and anger that pours out of you, and most others here, is so thick I could drive a tank on it. Sorry, but I call it as I see it. Read some of Dobler's comments. I should probably "shake the dust," but I feel led to stay.

 

If a rapist "warns" me that unless I give in, he'll do the same to my daughter....it doesn't make him any less of a monster.

Well, now that I think about it, if Jesus did exist I'd have to laugh it off because YHWH has no such place. YHWH might torture people to death but has nothing about eternal torture in the OT.

 

[sBF] So you believe the OT?

 

At best, Jesus should have been locked up in a pshyco ward for claiming to be the son of god, the messiah,etc. Poor guy had issues.

 

[sBF] Right, "cross" issues.

[Ouroboros]

 

Interesting with the Near Death Experience, since many stories have been told about Hindus see Krishna just before they die. So I guess Hinduism is true too.