Why Do You Remain A Christian?

February 24, 2013

Centauri.. brilliant! Thanks

Writings before Shurrupak?.. yes, quite a lot actually. Shurrupak is only the first real 'book' that we know of.

Writing actually started with the need to record things...quite a bit before Shurrupak, like, umm.. accounts of wealth, trade and taxes.. it was first used as a way to keep track of large amounts of things. (yes, economy is the herald of written language) There are thousands of cuneiform tablets with 'accounts' on them (how many sheep, goats, bushels of grain, amphora of oil, etc..) there are clay 'tags' describing whatever they were attached to, trade agreements, wills and inheritances, dowries, etc... I would think the very first writing would be though the signature.. or name, a mark of ownership (brands even), but don't quote me on that. There may have been writing long before - but on materials that have not stood the test of time.. leather, fabric, wood and plant material... it's the clay and stone samples that have survived.

Art and writing developed side by side. Early writing is pictographic.. a palm print, fingerprint, then little pictures of oxen or some such creature/plant.. only later did these become stylized and develop into abstractions... ie: hieroglyphics and cuneiform - are 'shorthand' so to speak.. which then evolved in alphabets and began to symbolize and incorporate oral language (sounds) as well.

Written language is art/speech rendered into symbols which convey abstract thought.

February 25, 2013

Hello Stranger.

One the subject of faith and facts, here's something you might like to think about.

Please read John 20: 19 - 31 and consider the following points.

1.

Thomas asked for evidence before he would believe that Jesus had risen from death. So, the sequence of events runs like this. Thomas doesn't believe - he asks for evidence - evidence is given - then he believes. In this case, belief (faith) was the result of evidence (facts). For Thomas, it was facts first, then faith. So, where the evidence and facts are availible, they can strengthen faith. But what happens when there is little or no evidence and there are no facts to be seen?

2.

Now please look at verse 29.

"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Now Stranger, in my last reply I said that you could not establish as fact, what the book of Genesis says about Cain, Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abram. Yet, you believe these people lived, just as scripture says, right? So, just as Jesus describes - you believe in them, but you have not seen them. Your faith has filled in the gap in the evidence, just as the Apostle Paul said it should in the book of Hebrews. This is what the faith of Christians is for. To believe in things they haven't witnessed or cannot see. Where no facts or evidence are available, faith takes over.

3.

Now please read verses 30 and 31, which explains why the Gospels were written.

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

The 'other signs' that Jesus performed, but which weren't recorded, were exclusively for the benefit of his disciples and nobody else. They weren't meant to strengthen your faith or the faith of any other Christian. This explains why they were not written down. They weren't meant for your eyes.

But the ones that are written in the Bible are for you, Stranger. They are recorded so that you may believe [without having seen them for yourself] and have faith in Jesus. This is why you are different from Thomas. He saw the facts and evidence and then believed. You cannot see any evidence or facts, yet you believe. As Jesus said, "... you have not seen and yet you have believed." By not seeing anything that happened in the Bible, but believing that these things did happen, you are therefore blessed. That's what your faith is for - to believe in things you have not and can never see.

4.

Now please look at what you wrote recently.

"That was some good scripture you put out there. And to some degree you are most certainly correct, but not replacing faith with facts, but using faith until we see the facts. This can often usually be done after seeing facts before hand."

I reckon that you're almost getting it.

But you're still stumbling over where facts come to an end and where faith takes over.

You're still treating the whole Bible as fact, when Jesus and John and Paul have clearly explained that the Bible was written for those (like yourself) who weren't there and who have not and can never see these events for themselves. No Christian can do as Thomas did and see and touch the evidence for themselves. No Christian can take scripture as fact, because the events happened thousands of years ago. But Christians can believe in scripture, by faith.

That's why Jesus said that Christians who believe without seeing the evidence and the facts are blessed with eternal life. That's the difference Stranger - the one you keep stumbling over. You believe the Bible is fact. This is exactly what it was written down for - for you to believe without seeing. For you to have faith without the facts and the evidence.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, here's the whole point of this post... so, listen up!

You believe by faith, not by the facts you've never seen. You believe by faith, not by the evidence you can never see. You believe by faith and are blessed because you have not seen the facts and the evidence. Therefore, when you claim that the Bible is fact, you are doing so as a Christian, thru your faith.

But we do not share in your faith, so we can't do that. We are like Thomas and must see before we can believe. That's why we ask for evidence and facts. Please look again at the sequence in #1. Thomas doesn't believe - he asks for evidence - evidence is given - then he believes.

So can you see what you have to do to help us believe?

Tell us that what you believe is true? Tell us that you believe the Bible is fact? Tell us that you believe it's history? Tell us that everyone chooses what the want to believe? Tell us that if we believe something, it becomes the truth?

Nope! None of the above. Doing those things won't work. Scripture says so. As I've clearly shown you.

No. You've got to show us the facts and show us the evidence.

It's up to you to persuade us by making a factual, evidence-based case for the Bible.

.

Thanks,

BAA.

p.s.

If you're interested in doing this Stranger, I think I can help you. Just let me know, ok?

February 26, 2013

Quote

Stranger wrote:

You know the word states Gods desire is that all come to Him. This
can be found throughout. You also know the bible makes it very clear
many times over that the choice to serve God is our choice and that the
responsibility falls on our own head. That being said yes, God
predestines, knowing who will follow Him and who will not from the very
beginning.

This is where you run into some big problems.

The word predestine means to determine in advance, not simply to know in advance.

Scripture states that God predestines according to his will.

Christians cannot come to any agreement on this issue because the Bible is internally conflicted.

<< Romans 8 >>
New International Version 1984

29For
those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness
of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

The
way I see it in scripture is this (1) Forknowledge (2) Because of His
forknowledge He is able to predestine or set in place or pre determine
(3) Because He foreknew, thus predestined, He also calls and ect.

Quote

Also
should be noted. The word hardened in Romans is interesting as all
other times it is used it implies choice. In Exodus the word used for
God hardening Pharaohs heart had the meaning of strengthen or, as I
would say, the ability to choose wrong over right. Paul also mentions
after this verse about God enduring with much patience of those destined
to wrath, again implying personel choice. The word prepare here means
also complete and is used in regards to finishing or to make ready, thus
also indication not something done from the start but something allowed
for the person to complete his own destruction. We also must remember
as the bible states that God take no pleasure in the death of the
wicked. He delights in no one spending eternity without Himself and I
know scripture is full of such facts.

Once again, you're trying to dilute God's direct manipulation into
passive onlooking, while the individual chooses to perform an action.

That's not what scripture says however.

Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

God made his heart stubborn, he didn't just allow him to be stubborn.

If God wants to use a human as a stage prop for his glory, he has no problem in doing so.

The situation with Pharaoh is the same.

<< Numbers 21 >>
New International Version 1984

22“Let
us pass through your country. We will not turn aside into any field or
vineyard, or drink water from any well. We will travel along the king’s
highway until we have passed through your territory.”

23But
Sihon would not let Israel pass through his territory. He mustered his
entire army and marched out into the desert against Israel. When he
reached Jahaz, he fought with Israel.

A
few points I think should be addressed. First, Was it said God hardened
any one's heart that was contary to the decision they wanted to make?
If not was it not more of a description of forknowledge? It is said that
God controls the hearts of Kings, and really has control over all of us
in that way, but what does this mean? Have you ever not had a choice to
accept or reject God? Have you ever really not had the choice to do the
right thing versing the wrong thing? What if God, in His control, uses
outside scources to perswade our mind and heart knowing our decisions
ahead of time and know those who have nothing but a heart bent on evil?

Quote

You
picture will is God gives no choice instead of knowing in advance. You
place Him as cause but this would be against scripture in regards to
personel choice. He causes no one their downfall, though allowes all to
choose life or death.

That directly contradicts Eph 1:4-5,11 which states that God predestines all things according to his will.

Once again, you cannot establish what God does or does not control.

Predestination (aka divine determinism) is alive and well in the
Bible, much to the distress of Christians that cannot deal with it.

Perhaps you can define exactly what the words "everything" and "your will" really mean, since you're denying they mean what they so clearly say:

Acts 4:28(NLT)

But everything they did was determined beforehand according to your will.

You have an intense denial for the word, when it doesn't line up with what you prefer to believe.

The reason I'm flogging this issue is because so many believers
refuse to accept that scripture cannot be used to establish anything
when it contradicts itself.

You cannot claim a universal ability to choose when it is clearly undermined by scripture.

The point being that there is no way to know what God has
predestined, and only one instance of it voids claims about God giving
choice to all people.

In
and of it's self I understand what you are saying. Again, however, if
predestined comes from forknowledge as stated earlier than there is no
counterdiction and ofcourse free will with limits remains. If all is set
in place according to His plan does that disallow free choice. In
Psalms 139 I believe it staes God knows all of our days meaning all that
will happen to everyone of us. That being said He also must know every
decision we will make just like He told David and Peter before they
sinned.

Again if the order is first forknowledge
and from that stems predestination than there is no contradiction.
However, He certainly does intervene but does He ever take away personel
choice thus personel freedom?

Just my thoughts. Thanks for asking

February 26, 2013

Quote

Quote

Quote

rape their daughters...

Where is this again? I musta missed it:)

NUMBERS

31 The Lord said to Moses, ²“Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”

³So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. ⁴Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” ⁵So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. ⁶Moses

sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with

Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the

sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

⁷They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. ⁸Among

their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of

Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. ⁹The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. ¹⁰They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. ¹¹They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, ¹²and

brought the captives, spoilsand plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest

and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the

Jordan across from Jericho.

¹³Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. ¹⁴Moses

was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and

commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

¹⁵“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. ¹⁶“They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. ¹⁷Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, ¹⁸but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

¹⁹“Anyone

who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay

outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must

purify yourselves and your captives. ²⁰Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”

²¹Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is what is required by the law that the Lord gave Moses: ²²Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead ²³and

anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and

then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of

cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that

water. ²⁴On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp.”

...

So, keep all the virgin girls for yourself...

I wonder what for?

Obviously not simply for use as labour slaves because the older women would have been good for that too.

Maybe

Moses thought the soldiers should wine, dine, and romance the young

girls until they accepted a proposal of marriage. Somehow I expect not,

since the soldiers had just killed the girls' mothers, fathers and

brothers and subjected them to vaginal inspection before kidnapping

them.

Your

thoughts are not of the Jewish law. First, a virgin could be known by

the outfits worn and outside signs, something now days not known of.

Secondly, this number could of included very young girls not fit for

sexual relations. Thirdly, for those who were to become wives the

Israelites had a seven day cleaning ritual outside the camp, plus an

allowence of 30 days was given to the woman for grieving, and if the

then husband found her unlikable he had to let her go. This means worst

case, there was a 37 day waiting period, and this by the way does not

include the traditions of marriage, thus the period of sexual

intercourse could of been quite lengthy. The bible is very directly

against rape.

the stranger, on 22 Feb 2013 - 01:28, said:

I read plenty of articles with just the title president. The exodus

was a major event, thus if giving a book about 9/11 one might only

refere to the term president as it might have been well known at the

time. I am not so sure these writers like Moses knew their books would

be forever published. It is believed Thutmoses

III was Pharaoh in 1440 BC for a total of 54 years. (1479-1425). Our President rules for eight years top.

You don't get it. Moses didn't write any part of the Bible. Moses

didn't even exist in the form you are thinking of. The closest thing to

Moses that was real were people like Thutmoses.  Moses

is an Egyptian word. The exodus was not a major event nor even a minor

event. It was as real as Rudolf leading Santa's Flying Sleigh through

the blizzard for the first time. There is zero evidence that the Exodus

happened.

People working for King Josiah wrote part of Deuteronomy. Then later

on some writers put out some Yhawaist and Elohem writings. When Ezra

came back from Babylon he took these sources along with traditions from a

wide variety of sources and he weaved them together to form the Old

Testament.

When you read the the Old Testament you find something curious. The

phrase " . . . and that is why it is called (name) to this very day".

The myth is trying to justify names that were modern to when the story

was written. You don't write a story about the 1990's and include

things like " . . . and that is why it is called (name) to this very

day".

Edit:

When Paul of Tarsus was writing his letters the Old Testament was

only about 500 years old. Ezra used older sources but he also changed

the material and there is no way to know how much he changed and how

much he conjured out of thin air. The Bible as reliable as the texts

for any other religion.

the stranger, on 22 Feb 2013 - 01:28, said:

>Yes,

it is true there are many gods or religions that share similar stories

with the bible. Does that discredit or support the bible? If all came

from a few on the ark than all would have flood stories, and they do.

Also being the Jews lived with the Greeks so long the Greeks may of used

the ideas from Israel. Read Acts where the Greek called Paul a Greek

God and Paul rebuked them, saying clearly Christianity is not part of

the Greek god system.

The evidence shows that Jewish religion came

from Egyptian and Babylonian sources that was later home brewed. The

evidence shows that Romans created Christianity from Jewish, Gnostic and

Mithraist sources. The evidence shows that humans create all kinds of

gods. The ones in the Bible are quite typical examples. Creating gods

is human nature. We have been doing it for at least 50,000 years.

the stranger, on 22 Feb 2013 - 01:28, said:

I

agree. In saying that, often times what one sees as evidence another

dismisses. So, even if we both have a stack of evidense, though they

point in two different directions, than it would be hard to call either

one fact, correct?

You don't have a stack of evidence. You don't have any objective

evidence at all. You just have the times when you lost your car keys

and then later found where you put them in your own home and told

yourself that this was some kind of miracle. You know atheists can find

their car keys too. And agnostics can roll up to an empty parking spot

sometimes without even asking any god. And pagans sometimes find it

stops raining just when it's time for them to go out.







                            Edited by mymistake, 22 February 2013 - 01:01 PM.

http://biblelight.net/moses.htm

Evidence for Moses authorship of the Pentateuch

Clay tablets like this were ideal for long-term written records. Far from ‘Flintstones’

clumsiness, these could be held in one hand.

Patriarchal records may have been carried on the Ark, later used by Moses in compiling

Genesis (under inspiration).

The evidence that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, often referred to in the Bible as

‘the Law’ (Hebrew torah), is

overwhelming:

Contrary to the views of Wellhausen and others, archaeological research has established
that writing was indeed well known in Moses’ day. The JEDP hypothesis falsely

assumes that the Iraelites waited until many centuries after the foundation of their

nation before committing any of their history or laws to written form, even though

their neighbours kept written records of their own history and religion from before

the time of Moses.⁴
The author is obviously an eyewitness of the Exodus from Egypt, familiar with the
geography,⁵ flora and fauna of the

region;⁶ he uses several Egyptian

words,⁷ and refers to customs that

go back to the second millennium BC.⁸
The Pentateuch claims in many places that Moses was the writer, e.g.
Exodus 17:14;

24:4–7;

34:27;

Numbers 33:2;

Deuteronomy 31:9, 22, 24.
Many times in the rest of the Old Testament, Moses is said to have been the writer,
e.g.

Joshua 1:7–8;

8:32–34;

Judges 3:4;

1 Kings 2:3;

2 Kings 14:6;

21:8;

2 Chronicles 25:4;

Ezra 6:18;

Nehemiah 8:1;

13:1;

Daniel 9:11–13.
In the New Testament, Jesus frequently spoke of Moses’ writings or the Law
of Moses, e.g.

Matthew 8:4;

19:7–8;

Mark 7:10;

12:26;

Luke 24:27, 44;

John 5:46–47;

7:19. Jesus said that those who ‘hear not [i.e. reject]

Moses’ would not be persuaded ‘though one

rose from the dead’ (Luke

16:31). Thus we see that those churches

and seminaries which reject the historicity of Moses’ writings often also

reject the literal bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Other New Testament speakers/writers said the same thing, e.g.
John 1:17;

Acts 6:14;

13:39;

15:5;

1 Corinthians 9:9;

2 Corinthians 3:15;

Hebrews 10:28.

http://creation.com/did-moses-really-write-genesis

I

am convinced there are many more reasons to believe than not to

believe. God revealed Himself to me before I did much bible reading. In

other words, for me, I believe because God came first, and that has lead

me to know the bible is His Holy word in which more and more evidense

is being found all the time even if everythinng is not concrete yet in

the evidence room.

I should add, these are some of

the mirackles which I believe to have happened in my life by God apart

from direct salvation. Twice now when well below 100 pounds after the

placement of my feeding tube I knew I was close to death and the doctors

could not figure it out. Both times I gave an earnest prayer and called

out for His will be done knowing He could heal me if He decided to.

Both times within 12 hours something happened concerning a fall or

tripping that enabled me from that point on to endure more feeding

through my tube. Perhaps a bent tube or whatever I do not know, but I do

believe even if there was a logical explanation that God alone caused

it to come about. One time driving I had no choice because of conditions

to put the ven in nutial and coast backward down a hill at 35 plus

miles per hour on a one lane street without sliding into the ditch. Now

truth is, many times in life we can see things as we will, but for me, I

know of the some of the times of Gods direct intervention on my behalf

and I choose to believe as such.

Perhaps a bit later I will detail your post out and respond accordingly.

====================================

I

hate sometimes not being able to respond to everyone when I would like

to. I should have more time coming up so I will atleast get to several a

day, though I know some I will have to dig deep for answeres if they

are out there. I will continue to go in order as to not leave earlier

ones out. Thanks for your patience.

February 26, 2013

A
few points I think should be addressed. First, Was it said God hardened
any one's heart that was contary to the decision they wanted to make?
If not was it not more of a description of forknowledge? It is said that
God controls the hearts of Kings, and really has control over all of us
in that way, but what does this mean? Have you ever not had a choice to
accept or reject God? Have you ever really not had the choice to do the
right thing versing the wrong thing? What if God, in His control, uses
outside scources to perswade our mind and heart knowing our decisions

ahead of time and know those who have nothing but a heart bent on evil?

Yes that is what "harden his heart" means. If God was going to let a person do whatever that person wanted then God would just have to get out of the way and do nothing. You see Ezra didn't care about an all-good God. That wasn't Ezra's theology. That is why Ezra's work has God doing genocide. Ezra didn't care that God was a monster. Ezra also didn't care that he made humanity completely inbred both when descending from Adam and again when descending from Noah. To Ezra's culture marring your half-sister or your cousin was quite normal. So naturally the practice shows up in their mythology.

Regarding the vid:

Very funny. I especially like the part where they show a rock that is just like all the other rocks around the world that have been split by the forces of nature but this guy declares it to be the one from the Moses. You still have zero objective evidence. Nothing at all. The evidence indicates that Moses was a made up story taken from earlier sources and the events described in Exodus never happened.

Do you realize that the size of clay tablet technology does not prove anything at all regarding Moses? You have zero objective evidence.

Edit:
I'm having trouble with the quoting. Sorry for any confusion.

February 26, 2013

The evidence that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, often referred to in the Bible as

‘the Law’ (Hebrew torah), is

overwhelming:

Contrary to the views of Wellhausen and others, archaeological research has established
that writing was indeed well known in Moses’ day. The JEDP hypothesis falsely

assumes that the Iraelites waited until many centuries after the foundation of their

nation before committing any of their history or laws to written form, even though

their neighbours kept written records of their own history and religion from before

the time of Moses.⁴

The author is obviously an eyewitness of the Exodus from Egypt, familiar with the
geography,⁵ flora and fauna of the

region;⁶ he uses several Egyptian

words,⁷ and refers to customs that

go back to the second millennium BC.⁸

The Pentateuch claims in many places that Moses was the writer, e.g.
Exodus 17:14;

24:4–7;

34:27;

Numbers 33:2;

Deuteronomy 31:9, 22, 24.

Many times in the rest of the Old Testament, Moses is said to have been the writer,
e.g.

Joshua 1:7–8;

8:32–34;

Judges 3:4;

1 Kings 2:3;

2 Kings 14:6;

21:8;

2 Chronicles 25:4;

Ezra 6:18;

Nehemiah 8:1;

13:1;

Daniel 9:11–13.

In the New Testament, Jesus frequently spoke of Moses’ writings or the Law
of Moses, e.g.

Matthew 8:4;

19:7–8;

Mark 7:10;

12:26;

Luke 24:27, 44;

John 5:46–47;

7:19. Jesus said that those who ‘hear not [i.e. reject]

Moses’ would not be persuaded ‘though one

rose from the dead’ (Luke

16:31). Thus we see that those churches

and seminaries which reject the historicity of Moses’ writings often also

reject the literal bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Other New Testament speakers/writers said the same thing, e.g.
John 1:17;

Acts 6:14;

13:39;

15:5;

1 Corinthians 9:9;

2 Corinthians 3:15;

Hebrews 10:28.

http://creation.com/did-moses-really-write-genesis

Stranger, I am glad that you have come through some dangerous times and have escaped death on at least two occasions. That is something to be thankful for!

I have to point out that of your categories of evidence for Mosaic authorship of the Torah, only #2 has the potential to count as evidence at all. It doesn't prove very much if later writers said that Moses wrote the Torah: 1) the time gap is great; 2) we don't know that they had the text of what we know as the "Torah;" 3) pseudepigraphical works abound in antiquity, especially when there was demand for them (i.e. written by someone later who represents the work as the product of a famous person from earlier times). I haven't done in-depth study of the Hebrew (used to read it but not for many years), but it needs to be shown that the style is consistent as though from one person.

As to your category #2, I'm not a specialist, so I defer. As a researcher and writer on ancient Greek stuff, though, I'll say that what you offer in #2 are all things that someone could have put in to add color and/or verisimilitude. At the same time, you do not address the glaring point that a massive migration like that described in Exodus would have left some archaeological record, and there is nothing. So alternative explanations for the text's references to flora, fauna, and customs gain strength.

February 26, 2013

The evidence that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, often referred to in the Bible as

‘the Law’ (Hebrew torah), is

overwhelming:

Contrary to the views of Wellhausen and others, archaeological research has established
that writing was indeed well known in Moses’ day. The JEDP hypothesis falsely

assumes that the Iraelites waited until many centuries after the foundation of their

nation before committing any of their history or laws to written form, even though

their neighbours kept written records of their own history and religion from before

the time of Moses.⁴

The author is obviously an eyewitness of the Exodus from Egypt, familiar with the
geography,⁵ flora and fauna of the

region;⁶ he uses several Egyptian

words,⁷ and refers to customs that

go back to the second millennium BC.⁸

The Pentateuch claims in many places that Moses was the writer, e.g.
Exodus 17:14;

24:4–7;

34:27;

Numbers 33:2;

Deuteronomy 31:9, 22, 24.

Many times in the rest of the Old Testament, Moses is said to have been the writer,
e.g.

Joshua 1:7–8;

8:32–34;

Judges 3:4;

1 Kings 2:3;

2 Kings 14:6;

21:8;

2 Chronicles 25:4;

Ezra 6:18;

Nehemiah 8:1;

13:1;

Daniel 9:11–13.

In the New Testament, Jesus frequently spoke of Moses’ writings or the Law
of Moses, e.g.

Matthew 8:4;

19:7–8;

Mark 7:10;

12:26;

Luke 24:27, 44;

John 5:46–47;

7:19. Jesus said that those who ‘hear not [i.e. reject]

Moses’ would not be persuaded ‘though one

rose from the dead’ (Luke

16:31). Thus we see that those churches

and seminaries which reject the historicity of Moses’ writings often also

reject the literal bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Other New Testament speakers/writers said the same thing, e.g.
John 1:17;

Acts 6:14;

13:39;

15:5;

1 Corinthians 9:9;

2 Corinthians 3:15;

Hebrews 10:28.

http://creation.com/did-moses-really-write-genesis

Are you kidding?

1 Assumes the time of Moses. There were no Israeli people prior to the arrival of the Sea People. Don't you get it? The Israelis didn't conquer Canaan. The Sea People drove the Israelites out of what would become Philistia. That was why Israel and the Philistines hated each other so much. The Israelites had been living in an Egyptian provence but then they had to run for the hills.

2 The "wilderness" was right next to where they lived. It's not like they lived in Europe or North America. It's not anything special for people living right next to a desert to know that locust and quail live in that desert.

3-6 rely on the Bible to prove the Bible. Come on man. You have zero objective evidence.

I

am convinced there are many more reasons to believe than not to

believe. God revealed Himself to me before I did much bible reading. In

other words, for me, I believe because God came first, and that has lead

me to know the bible is His Holy word in which more and more evidense

is being found all the time even if everythinng is not concrete yet in

the evidence room.

And yet if you had grown up with a different family or in a different part of the world you would be just as convinced that a different god(s) were the real one. Your subjective beliefs do not count as objective evidence.

I should add, these are some of

the mirackles which I believe to have happened in my life by God apart

from direct salvation. Twice now when well below 100 pounds after the

placement of my feeding tube I knew I was close to death and the doctors

could not figure it out. Both times I gave an earnest prayer and called

out for His will be done knowing He could heal me if He decided to.

Both times within 12 hours something happened concerning a fall or

tripping that enabled me from that point on to endure more feeding

through my tube. Perhaps a bent tube or whatever I do not know, but I do

believe even if there was a logical explanation that God alone caused

it to come about. One time driving I had no choice because of conditions

to put the ven in nutial and coast backward down a hill at 35 plus

miles per hour on a one lane street without sliding into the ditch. Now

truth is, many times in life we can see things as we will, but for me, I

know of the some of the times of Gods direct intervention on my behalf

and I choose to believe as such.

If you had been born a century earlier then God would have answered "no". You are only alive to credit God because humans saved you. Maybe doctors didn't know exactly what was wrong with you but they did know the methods that saved you life. There are many people who have been in a similar situation and died despite their prayers to what they believe is your very same God. And likewise some atheists and agnostics were in a smilier situation and survived due to human effort despite no prayer to God.

February 26, 2013

You lie and prevaricate and excuse and twist... and your sources suck

The whole 'bible light' reference:

  http://www.thebanmappingproject.com  

This is the only reputable site.

On the Torah... actual neutral info

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_arhs.htm

I'll leave the rest for others... though it's obvious you didn't really look at the stuff I provided for you. Figures.

February 26, 2013

Quote

Stranger wrote:

A

few points I think should be addressed. First, Was it said God hardened

any one's heart that was contary to the decision they wanted to make?

If not was it not more of a description of forknowledge? It is said that

God controls the hearts of Kings, and really has control over all of us

in that way, but what does this mean? Have you ever not had a choice to

accept or reject God? Have you ever really not had the choice to do the

right thing versing the wrong thing? What if God, in His control, uses

outside scources to perswade our mind and heart knowing our decisions

ahead of time and know those who have nothing but a heart bent on evil?

Stranger, this is a poor argument because according to the Christian doctrine of total depravity, no unbeliever wants to accept God or do God's will. All are controlled by sin. Only those who are stirred by the Holy Spirit can turn to God/accept God/do what pleases God. So "the decision they wanted to make" in Sihon's case was by default already to oppose God. MM pointed this out, too. There is no point in scripture's adding that God hardened any unbeliever's heart except to convey the idea that in that situation, God did something notable to cause that person to oppose.

It does violence to the meaning of scripture to deny that God hardened a heart when it says he hardened a heart. You have to confront the text.

In any case, those situations are enough to falsify any claim that God ALWAYS gives EVERYONE a chance.

February 26, 2013

Stranger wote:

You know the word states Gods desire is that all come to Him. This

can be found throughout. You also know the bible makes it very clear

many times over that the choice to serve God is our choice and that the

responsibility falls on our own head. That being said yes, God

predestines, knowing who will follow Him and who will not from the very

beginning.

This is where you run into some big problems.

The word predestine means to determine in advance, not simply to know in advance.

Scripture states that God predestines according to his will.

Christians cannot come to any agreement on this issue because the Bible is internally conflicted.

Stranger wrote:

<< Romans 8 >>

New International Version 1984

29For

those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness

of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

The

way I see it in scripture is this (1) Forknowledge (2) Because of His

forknowledge He is able to predestine or set in place or pre determine

(3) Because He foreknew, thus predestined, He also calls and ect.

Well, God is supposed to have foreknowledge of all things.

Eph 1:4,5 11 states that he works all things according to his will.

If that is literally true, then God has foreknowledge because he determines in advance.

Predestination makes foreknowledge possible.

Keep in mind Rom 9, where God destined Jacob and Esau for their roles in life before they had emerged from the womb.

The script was already written for these babies and their "choice" in the matter was zero.

February 26, 2013

Also

should be noted. The word hardened in Romans is interesting as all

other times it is used it implies choice. In Exodus the word used for

God hardening Pharaohs heart had the meaning of strengthen or, as I

would say, the ability to choose wrong over right. Paul also mentions

after this verse about God enduring with much patience of those destined

to wrath, again implying personel choice. The word prepare here means

also complete and is used in regards to finishing or to make ready, thus

also indication not something done from the start but something allowed

for the person to complete his own destruction. We also must remember

as the bible states that God take no pleasure in the death of the

wicked. He delights in no one spending eternity without Himself and I

know scripture is full of such facts.

Once again, you're trying to dilute God's direct manipulation into

passive onlooking, while the individual chooses to perform an action.

That's not what scripture says however.

Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

God made his heart stubborn, he didn't just allow him to be stubborn.

If God wants to use a human as a stage prop for his glory, he has no problem in doing so.

The situation with Pharaoh is the same.

<< Numbers 21 >>

New International Version 1984

22“Let

us pass through your country. We will not turn aside into any field or

vineyard, or drink water from any well. We will travel along the king’s

highway until we have passed through your territory.”

23But

Sihon would not let Israel pass through his territory. He mustered his

entire army and marched out into the desert against Israel. When he

reached Jahaz, he fought with Israel.

Stranger wrote:

A few points I think should be addressed. First, Was it said God hardened

any one's heart that was contary to the decision they wanted to make?

If not was it not more of a description of forknowledge? It is said that

God controls the hearts of Kings, and really has control over all of us

in that way, but what does this mean? Have you ever not had a choice to

accept or reject God? Have you ever really not had the choice to do the

right thing versing the wrong thing? What if God, in His control, uses

outside scources to perswade our mind and heart knowing our decisions

ahead of time and know those who have nothing but a heart bent on evil?

Well, if the king of Heshbon in Deut 2:30 was going to harden his heart all on his own, then there would have been no need for God to interfere at all.

Again, I'll go back to Rom 9 with Jacob and Esau.

Their roles were determined by God on the basis of his whim, not on the basis of them doing or choosing anything.

You picture will is God gives no choice instead of knowing in advance. You

place Him as cause but this would be against scripture in regards to

personel choice. He causes no one their downfall, though allowes all to

choose life or death.

That directly contradicts Eph 1:4-5,11 which states that God predestines all things according to his will.

Once again, you cannot establish what God does or does not control.

Predestination (aka divine determinism) is alive and well in the

Bible, much to the distress of Christians that cannot deal with it.

Perhaps you can define exactly what the words "everything" and "your will" really mean, since you're denying they mean what they so clearly say:

Acts 4:28(NLT)

But everything they did was determined beforehand according to your will.

You have an intense denial for the word, when it doesn't line up with what you prefer to believe.

The reason I'm flogging this issue is because so many believers

refuse to accept that scripture cannot be used to establish anything

when it contradicts itself.

You cannot claim a universal ability to choose when it is clearly undermined by scripture.

The point being that there is no way to know what God has

predestined, and only one instance of it voids claims about God giving

choice to all people.

Stranger wrote:

In and of it's self I understand what you are saying. Again, however, if

predestined comes from forknowledge as stated earlier than there is no

counterdiction and ofcourse free will with limits remains. If all is set

in place according to His plan does that disallow free choice. In

Psalms 139 I believe it staes God knows all of our days meaning all that

will happen to everyone of us. That being said He also must know every

decision we will make just like He told David and Peter before they

sinned.

Again if the order is first forknowledge

and from that stems predestination than there is no contradiction.

However, He certainly does intervene but does He ever take away personel

choice thus personel freedom?

Just my thoughts. Thanks for asking

There may be times when God does allow choice, but you have no way of knowing when those times are.

Jacob and Esau had no decision to make regarding who was inferior to God.

God determined that by divine whim before they were born or had done anything good or bad.

God's purpose trumped individual choice and will.

The chapter even calls it "God's sovereign choice".

Predestination made foreknowledge possible.

God determined in advance and as a result of that action, he then foreknew.

All it takes is one case of this to throw the entire issue of free will into an indeterminable funk.

February 26, 2013

I

hate sometimes not being able to respond to everyone when I would like

to. I should have more time coming up so I will atleast get to several a

day, though I know some I will have to dig deep for answeres if they

are out there. I will continue to go in order as to not leave earlier

ones out. Thanks for your patience.

Looks like this is directed at me (perhaps among others). Like I said, I understand that these responses take time. Back when I was a Christian, I too spent time on Internet forums carefully crafting my posts to others in defense of the Christian faith.

As you prepare your own defense of the Christian faith to me, I might suggest that you consider this. I know that to you belive Jesus is light, salvation, and lover of my soul. You believe that though he was rich, for my sake he became poor that by his poverty I might become rich. But keep in mind that to me, he's just a guy who's threatening to send me and most people I know to an eternal hell unless I believe in some random European religion and throw away all of my family's customs and traditions. In the Old Testament, God often talks disparagingly of the Israelites whoring after other gods and worshiping deities that their fathers did not know. I'm not trying to compare Jesus to a whore, but this is sort of the way I feel about Christianity. Even if your apologetic arguments were sound, this would be the major reason for my refusal to convert. It's easy for a European American, whose ancestry is purely Christian, to prop up Christianity as the only true religion, as practiced by his ancestors. By practicing it himself he is honoring his parents and heritage. For someone like myself, however, conversion to Christianity requires a rejection of identity and any cultural affilation. And let us not forget that the "if" concerning apologetic arguments is purely hypothetical. Again, no offense, but virtually every Christian apologetic argument I've ever heard was utterly indefensible. The logic is poor and the proposed facts are either misinformation or outright lies. These are points that I'd certainly like to hear your comments on.

February 26, 2013

Thirdly, for those who were to become wives the Israelites had a seven day cleaning ritual outside the camp, plus an allowence of 30 days was given to the woman for grieving, and if the then husband found her unlikable he had to let her go. This means worst case, there was a 37 day waiting period, and this by the way does not include the traditions of marriage, thus the period of sexual intercourse could of been quite lengthy.

And you think this is good?

So I murder your father and your mother, and you, and then take your virgin sister - but let her grieve for 37 days - and then she has to be married to me (your killer) for the rest of her life.

You think that is moral and good?

I don't believe you.

February 26, 2013

Thirdly, for those who were to become wives the Israelites had a seven day cleaning ritual outside the camp, plus an allowence of 30 days was given to the woman for grieving, and if the then husband found her unlikable he had to let her go. This means worst case, there was a 37 day waiting period, and this by the way does not include the traditions of marriage, thus the period of sexual intercourse could of been quite lengthy.

And you think this is good?

So I murder your father and your mother, and you, and then take your virgin sister - but let her grieve for 37 days - and then she has to be married to me (your killer) for the rest of her life.

You think that is moral and good?

I don't believe you.

SquareOne,

I think you're getting confused about this issue.

By definition, everything and anything God does or orders is... GOOD.

Therefore, if God orders that people be killed - there is no wrongdoing or evil involved, either on God's part or the part of those doing the killing in His name.

Scripture even confirms this. Please read Genesis 3.

All people since Adam and Eve are born into a natural state of rebellion against God and so all are worthy of death. That's what rebellion against the author of life results in - death. Spiritual and physical death. Since Eve is the mother of all the living, every person since that time has inherited the curses God (justly) placed on the first man and the first woman. They've also inherited the same pattern of sinful disobedience that was initiated by Adam and Eve. It's therefore a mistake to begin with the idea that all people are worthy of life in God's eyes. They aren't. Nobody is worthy of life and all are worthy of eternal hellfire. But God has prepared in advance for some to be saved from His wrath, not because they are worthy and not because they deserve to live, but in accordance with His will.

He will have mercy on who He will have mercy and have compassion on who He will have compassion.

If He has decided who will receive His mercy and who will receive His wrath, before they were born - that's His decision, not theirs. If He plans to be merciful to them, there's no thought they can think, no action they can take and no decision they can make that will prevent this outcome. Conversely, just as Esau found out, if God has predetermined someone to receive His wrath, there's nothing they can do to avoid this outcome.

After all, which weak and fallible human is able to resist God's perfect and eternal will? The Pharisee Gamaliel sums it up in Acts 5: 33-40. Any human purpose or activity will fail, but nobody is able to stop the will of God, which is sovereign in ALL matters. After all, if human desire and human effort could change God's will, then He wouldn't eternal and unchanging, would He? That's just simple, but irrefutable logic.

Psalm 139 explains it all.

Especially verses 13 to 16, which describe how God wrote down in His book, every day in a person's life, before they come to be. How, even though God knits a person's body together in their mother's womb, every detail of their life was prepared and written down by Him, before He even created the world.

Now please read Romans 9 and understand this.

The Midianites were 'objects of His wrath - prepared for destruction' before the creation of the world. God ordained this, but in His mercy he permitted the virgin Midianite girls to live and to become the wives of the Israelite men. Even though every such virgin deserved death. This is another example of God's mercy at work.

So there's no crime, no evil and no immorality on God's part in this story. Nor on the part of the Israelites. Therefore, you can't use the word murder to describe what happened to the Midianites. Nor are such terms as, 'ethnic cleansing' or 'genocide' appropriate. Since God is just and these people were all deserving of death, they were justly executed by those carrying out God's good and righteous and just commands.

I hope that explains this issue.

Thanks,

BAA.

February 26, 2013

BAA.. you're working for the wrong side! That was brilliant, and in biblical terms it's quite true.

Isaiah 46:10 is, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

1 Peter 1:2 "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

February 26, 2013

Ravenstar,

I would just like to point out that even though you thought you freely made the decision to reply to me - you didn't. In the same way, long before I was born, it was ordained that I'd be typing this.

BAA

February 26, 2013

Your

thoughts are not of the Jewish law. First, a virgin could be known by

the outfits worn and outside signs, something now days not known of.

Secondly, this number could of included very young girls not fit for

sexual relations. Thirdly, for those who were to become wives the

Israelites had a seven day cleaning ritual outside the camp, plus an

allowence of 30 days was given to the woman for grieving, and if the

then husband found her unlikable he had to let her go. This means worst

case, there was a 37 day waiting period, and this by the way does not

include the traditions of marriage, thus the period of sexual

intercourse could of been quite lengthy. The bible is very directly

against rape.

You're dangerously delusional. The Bible's absolutely fine with rape. Not only does it explicitly support rape in these verses, it supports rape in a number of other ones. The point is that you're trying to excuse RAPE. RAPE! A cleansing ritual of 37 days? A waiting period? A fine paid? Oh, that makes it totally okay to RAPE A WOMAN. You're trying to twist the Bible's words to make it sound absolutely fine. I mean, I'm a woman, and I think that'd be just awesome. I'm sure I'd see how wonderful my family's murderer and my kidnapper and future rapist is in that amount of time. I'd be totally consensual by then. You're advocating for rape and trying to say how oh no, that's totally fine, it's totally okay. Do you even listen to yourself? Are you that utterly incapable of recognizing barbarity when you see it?

Would you be okay with someone doing something like this to *your* family? Kidnapping your pre-teen daughter, holding her for 37 days, then forcing her to marry him? Cutting her hair off, trimming her nails, taking control over the most intimate functions of her body and controlling the smallest detail of even her appearance? You'd be fine with that? You think there's any circumstance under which any of this would be considered moral?

What is so broken in you that you're actually convinced that these verses are anything but ghastly beyond all human comprehension? If this were a real god, do you imagine he'd get any better treatment than any war criminal of the modern age? Your god had a chance to say "dudes, women are fully people too, and it's not okay to sexually assault them no matter what." And he didn't. And you're desperately splitting hairs, moving goalposts, and reaching for straws to explain that shortcoming away.

This religion gets more and more disgusting and repellent to me the more its adherents try to doublespeak their way into excusing its horrors. I'd have a lot more respect for Christians as a group if they acknowledged its evils and did what they could to redress it.

February 26, 2013

(BAA and everything happens for a reason!)

and Akheia, you are dead on as always. The misogyny bursts out of that blood-filled book from cover to cover. From Genesis on down...

I can't believe people let their children read it... good family values there, uh-huh.

February 26, 2013

I would just like to point out that even though you thought you freely made the decision to reply to me - you didn't. In the same way, long before I was born, it was ordained that I'd be typing this.

Praise Jebus!

February 27, 2013

I thought Stranger said he was going to reply to my posts....

Just one would be nice...

Maybe I'm too impatient? hmmm.... okay, I'll wait

____ INTERLUDE_____ macarena Jebus!

February 27, 2013

What is so broken in you that you're actually convinced that these verses are anything but ghastly beyond all human comprehension? If this were a real god, do you imagine he'd get any better treatment than any war criminal of the modern age? Your god had a chance to say "dudes, women are fully people too, and it's not okay to sexually assault them no matter what." And he didn't. And you're desperately splitting hairs, moving goalposts, and reaching for straws to explain that shortcoming away.

Seconded. It's patently obvious that the "divine laws" of the Bible and many other scriptures are 100% human and 0% divine in nature. Surely a god could come up with vastly better ways of dealing with the enemies of its "chosen people" -- Ways that didn't involve terrorizing young women and murdering their families.

Yes, Stranger, you are indeed broken if you're trying to glean something positive out of these verses. You are not something that I want to become.

February 27, 2013

Maybe I'm too impatient? hmmm.... okay, I'll wait

____ INTERLUDE_____ macarena Jebus!

Colo telo rik

zoom zoom zoom

pow

zoom zoom zoom

pow pow

zoom zoom zoom

pow pow pow pow pow pow pow

Everyone do the Harlem Shake

February 27, 2013

Is it just me or do we collectively get further and further away from reconverting the more Jesus' fan club shows up to try to explain away all our concerns?

February 27, 2013

Is it just me or do we collectively get further and further away from reconverting the more Jesus' fan club shows up to try to explain away all our concerns?

I think the problem here is that whereas most people are somewhat open to changing their minds based on new evidence, Christianity imposes the initial constraint that the Bible is true. We also have un-Biblical, culturally imposed societal values. For example, we all think it's wrong to own slaves or to force a girl to marry her parents' killers. Even Christians think this. So when the Bible says otherwise, Christian apologists make up explanations that try to demonstrate that the passage in question doesn't really say what it obviously says. Because the arguments aren't made from the perspective of trying to figure out what's true, they are inherently weak. If you're a Christian, you want to believe that the Bible is true, and you'll accept a weak explanation because it alleviates your cognitive dissonance. As former Christians, we are no longer bound by the requirement to believe the Bible is true, and so we won't hold to a weak argument just because it makes us feel better. Now Stranger isn't building arguments from scratch. He's taking them from apologetic websites intended to lessen Christians' cognitive dissonance. These arguments won't work so well on someone who's opened their mind to possibilites that aren't supported by the Bible.

Mind you, I'm not trying to insult him. I did exactly the same thing when I was a Christian. I repeated arguments that weren't very convincing because they made me feel better. It would be rather hypocritical for me to now blame Stranger for doing the same. But that doesn't make him correct. These arguments are quite wrong; Christian apologetics is an intellectual joke, and as has already been shown, the arguments put forth on apologetic websites are academically poor.

February 27, 2013

Your

thoughts are not of the Jewish law. First, a virgin could be known by

the outfits worn and outside signs, something now days not known of.

Secondly, this number could of included very young girls not fit for

sexual relations. Thirdly, for those who were to become wives the

Israelites had a seven day cleaning ritual outside the camp, plus an

allowence of 30 days was given to the woman for grieving, and if the

then husband found her unlikable he had to let her go. This means worst

case, there was a 37 day waiting period, and this by the way does not

include the traditions of marriage, thus the period of sexual

intercourse could of been quite lengthy. The bible is very directly

against rape.

You're dangerously delusional. The Bible's absolutely fine with rape. Not only does it explicitly support rape in these verses, it supports rape in a number of other ones. The point is that you're trying to excuse RAPE. RAPE! A cleansing ritual of 37 days? A waiting period? A fine paid? Oh, that makes it totally okay to RAPE A WOMAN. You're trying to twist the Bible's words to make it sound absolutely fine. I mean, I'm a woman, and I think that'd be just awesome. I'm sure I'd see how wonderful my family's murderer and my kidnapper and future rapist is in that amount of time. I'd be totally consensual by then. You're advocating for rape and trying to say how oh no, that's totally fine, it's totally okay. Do you even listen to yourself? Are you that utterly incapable of recognizing barbarity when you see it?

Would you be okay with someone doing something like this to *your* family? Kidnapping your pre-teen daughter, holding her for 37 days, then forcing her to marry him? Cutting her hair off, trimming her nails, taking control over the most intimate functions of her body and controlling the smallest detail of even her appearance? You'd be fine with that? You think there's any circumstance under which any of this would be considered moral?

What is so broken in you that you're actually convinced that these verses are anything but ghastly beyond all human comprehension? If this were a real god, do you imagine he'd get any better treatment than any war criminal of the modern age? Your god had a chance to say "dudes, women are fully people too, and it's not okay to sexually assault them no matter what." And he didn't. And you're desperately splitting hairs, moving goalposts, and reaching for straws to explain that shortcoming away.

This religion gets more and more disgusting and repellent to me the more its adherents try to doublespeak their way into excusing its horrors. I'd have a lot more respect for Christians as a group if they acknowledged its evils and did what they could to redress it.

I hope Stranger reads your excellent post over and over again until it sinks in. Unfortunately, that probably won't happen -- at least not until he takes off the god goggles and starts thinking for himself.

Why Do You Remain A Christian?

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