Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[mymistake]

Forgot to tell. Grecco was banned a couple of days ago. Just to confirm everyone's suspicion, he was JayL. The very same.

 

A big thank you goes out to our mod team for a job well done.

[Antlerman]

He's a strange cat, that one. I actually don't believe he's even a real Christian. Suspect he's just a troll out for jollies. No one is that stupid. His praise Jesus crap sounds forced.

[duderonomy]

I remain a Christian because it costs me nothing. I once believed in Jesus, and thus I was saved. No one shall pluck me out of His hand. His blood covers all of my sins; past, present, and future. Once saved, always saved. Does this give me a license to sin? God forbid! God knows I am weak in the flesh.

 

Thank God I can safely wrap myself in Romans 7, and the more I think I shouldn't do the deed, the more I want to do it. There will be consequences for all of this, of course. That's what Romans 8 explains. I can't lose salvation, and even if my most heinous deeds hurt me in any way, God will make it turn to be good for me.

 

Other than that, I don't.

[Akheia]

I'm confused, dude. Are you agnostic, as your profile claims?

 

I used to think Christianity "cost me nothing," but I was very wrong, both in terms of actual cost to my emotional stability and wholeness, and in terms of the opportunity cost of the things I didn't do because religion hamstrung and shackled me. It's amazing that people think Christianity has no cost. It has huge, tremendous costs. It makes you feel inadequate; it prompts you to spend your time and money chasing shit-stained rainbows; it encourages you to view other people as enemies for simply disagreeing; it makes you revel in the suffering of others and see omens and punishments behind every quirk of chance; it leads you to deny reality in favor of a moldy book of fairy tales. It keeps you from forming healthy relationships; it makes you unable to simply enjoy others' company without feeling you have to sell your religion to them; it gives you really weird and unhealthy views of sex; it discourages women especially from fully embracing their skills and talents in favor of dancing to a canned routine.

 

Part of my dalliance with that insane religion involved me not seeing its abuses and overreaches until well after I was out of it.

[raoul]

I remain a Christian because it costs me nothing. I once believed in Jesus, and thus I was saved. No one shall pluck me out of His hand. His blood covers all of my sins; past, present, and future. Once saved, always saved. Does this give me a license to sin? God forbid! God knows I am weak in the flesh.

 

Thank God I can safely wrap myself in Romans 7, and the more I think I shouldn't do the deed, the more I want to do it. There will be consequences for all of this, of course. That's what Romans 8 explains. I can't lose salvation, and even if my most heinous deeds hurt me in any way, God will make it turn to be good for me.

 

Other than that, I don't.

You'd better check on that 'once saved, always saved' thingie dingie because lately they've been preaching something different. IE: work out your salvation with fear and trembling - they cite this for supporting an endurance type salvation where you have to endure to the end in order to make it to jesusland. You see, they always have to change their tune in order to fleece the flock and keep the money rolling in.

[raoul]

I'm confused, dude. Are you agnostic, as your profile claims?

 

I used to think Christianity "cost me nothing," but I was very wrong, both in terms of actual cost to my emotional stability and wholeness, and in terms of the opportunity cost of the things I didn't do because religion hamstrung and shackled me. It's amazing that people think Christianity has no cost. It has huge, tremendous costs. It makes you feel inadequate; it prompts you to spend your time and money chasing shit-stained rainbows; it encourages you to view other people as enemies for simply disagreeing; it makes you revel in the suffering of others and see omens and punishments behind every quirk of chance; it leads you to deny reality in favor of a moldy book of fairy tales. It keeps you from forming healthy relationships; it makes you unable to simply enjoy others' company without feeling you have to sell your religion to them; it gives you really weird and unhealthy views of sex; it discourages women especially from fully embracing their skills and talents in favor of dancing to a canned routine.

 

Part of my dalliance with that insane religion involved me not seeing its abuses and overreaches until well after I was out of it.

the psychological damage alone is beyond comprehension. Going around all day long, looking over your shoulder whether you realize it or not is just an example of what they've done to people. I never realized I had this thing on my back until I said 'screw it, I'm done'. It's as if a giant boulder was taken off of my shoulders.

[mcdaddy]

That was a fucking awesome post, Ak. Seriously.

 

+ 1 Brazilian

[duderonomy]

Akheia, I agree with mcdaddy, your post was awesome and spot on.  I am an agnostic, which means to me simply that I don't know if there is a "God" or not.  

I used to be a Christian, and at one time what I posted above would have been very close to my answer on "Why do you remain a Christian?".  I'm not even sure why I posted it. 

I said I 'once believed in Jesus', and 'other than that I don't'. I should have been more clear though, and in re-reading what I wrote, I understand your confusion. I'm not the best at expressing myself in writing sometimes.

 

raoul, Now I gotta work for my salvation? I was saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest I should boast. The mind frak is terrible, isn't it?

[Strategos]

 

Hmm, this is a good question. I guess my biggest reason for believing would have to be creation. I haven't read all the posts on the subject, but from my POV, there is no stronger evidence than this. I have never been shown evidence to the contrary as far as creation, and I definitely don't believe we started as tiny cells, or that we came from apes. Everything in the universe, from the distance of the sun being just right, to the distance of the moon being just right, to trees giving off oxygen and taking in carbon dioxide, and us taking in oxygen and us giving off carbon dioxide, it all just fits to neatly for it to have been an accident.

It isn't as perfect as you think. For instance, the moon isn't in a perfect path, but follows an elliptic track. It's closest to Earth at its perigee of 364,000 km, and farthest at the apogee of 407,000 km. That means the Moon at perigee is 10% closer to Earth than at its apogee.

 

The same argument goes for Earth and the Sun. The path of Earth follows an elliptic track too. Also large differences in apogee and perigee. And the average distance of the Moon to Earth, and the Earth to the Sun is changing too. If I remember correctly, the Moon is slowly getting further away from us, but I could be wrong, maybe it was the other way around, that it's slowly getting closer. Also, the hour (24 hr about) is based on Earths spin around the Sun, and it's changing slowly too. And there's evidence that in the past these distances and spins and time to rotate around Earth or the Sun has changed over just the last few thousand years.

 

So, no, it's not "perfect" or "exact" at all.

 

You don't believe we come from tiny cells? So, have you heard about the egg, sperm and the first cell that grows into a fetus? You never studied biology? 6,000,000,000 people, alive today, came from one cell. Everyone.

 

Regarding the apes, there's evidence in the DNA to show that we come from the apes, or the alternative answer is that God intentionally created faulty identical genes that only we and apes share, and no other animals.

 

Supernova 1987A is a mathematical proof that the existence of the Universe is at least 150,000 years. It's of course much older than that, but the thing is that even if you don't believe in radioactive dating or any other method, the SN1987A is based on simple triangulation calculation. The world cannot be only 6,000 years old, because then our basic understanding of geometry and triangles would have to be completely wrong.

 

Another side to the argument of "perfect creation" is that, how come a "perfect" universe can only exist if a "perfect" creator created it? Doesn't that imply that the "perfect" creator must also be created? How else can he be "perfect" without being created, while the "perfect" universe cannot?

 

Well, we all agree that perfection is subjective, but what he's really talking about, or so I believe, is the way things are ordered. Ordered in a way that shows things were made by a creator and not just by random chance. And as far as my faith in God and keeping it, well that comes down to three things.

1.) Seeing God work in my life. But how can this be because no one today has seen God right? I mean really seen God. Not true, you are just not looking with the right eyes. Remember, if you seek God you will find him. But how will I find him?

The answer: By looking for his presents. In other words, not looking for his physical form, but the effect of him. Let me explain this a little more by asking a few questions, starting with this one: How did people discover a black hole? How did people discover the atom? How do people discover planets that are way beyond our capability to see? Well, I think you know the answer. They did it by seeing the effects of something that was present but could not physically be seen, right.

But how do you see God's presents then? I mean, how was he made known to me?

The answer: In many ways, but let me just explain one for now, that being: I was change from the inside out. I mean really changed. Changed to the point that I know down deep inside that I couldn't have done it myself, nor could anyone else have done it for me. That's because I'm a true believer that we are all self centered at the core from the moment of our birth. I know this because this self preservation is in everyone I have ever known. Take me for example. As I was growing up I didn't care much for other people as long as I got what was mine, whatever that happened to be. And I was like this in everything I did, from the biggest thing to the smallest. This was my religion.

Now don't get me wrong folks, I did helped others because in my eyes that's what a good person does, right? But the bottom line, even when I was doing good deeds, was that it was all about me. I mean, helping others made me feel good, brought me a lot of praise, got me noticed, secured help when I needed it. In other words, I was doing it for me more then for them. All in all, it still came down to one thing, that being, I benefited from it, after all, what goes around comes around, right? And this is how I lived my life until God came in and changed the very core of me just by his words alone. Imagine that, being changed, totally reversing the way I feel and think just by his words. And once that happened, I began to see him lingering around me.

I tell you now, I had no reason to change in the slightest. I was happy living life pleasing myself. I was completely fine with it. But something inside of me really changed and it is permanent. I feel a love for others that I had never felt before. A compassion for others that wasn't inside of me. And none of this came about because I was sickly or about to die. It came about because God took the old me and tossed it away, then replaced it with the new me. That is the truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God. And this is only one example.

2.) The preponderance of the overall evidence, both physical and spiritual, supports the existence of God then then his nonexistence, although this isn't the true foundation of my belief, for all know that we christens walk by faith, or should anyways.

3.) By faith. Faith in the evidence I have seen, both physical and spiritual. Faith in my own experiences. And last but not least, faith in the bible which I profess is the true word of God.

Anyways, these are the reasons, and I know they may not be enough to convince you to revisit the idea that God does exist and loves you, for walking with the Lord is a personal choice, a free choice, given unto you by God himself. However, if you feel like you haven’t considered everything, in other words, given God a fair shake, then email me at swimlikeafish04@yahoo.com and let me see if I can give you that opportunity. I won't try to convince you of his existence, God wouldn't want that because he wants each and everyone of us to freely come to him, but maybe I can give you a little direction, okay.

And as a side note, I hope my posting an email address hasn't violated the rules of this forum, but if it it has then I won't do it again.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Strategos, do you really think we haven't heard all of that before, and explored these issues in depth ourselves?  Sheesh.

[Deva]

I won't try to convince you of his existence, God wouldn't want that because he wants each and everyone of us to freely come to him, but maybe I can give you a little direction, okay.

 

 

Not a chance, Strategos.  We don't buy what you are selling.

[Strategos]

Strategos, do you really think we haven't heard all of that before, and explored these issues in depth ourselves?  Sheesh.

I'm not presuming anything. Just speaking my mind. But yet, it still may surprise you on how many people are still undecided about God even though they profess otherwise. I'm guessing the case has been settled for you based upon your reply, but do you speak for all here, or are you just speaking for yourself?

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I'm not presuming anything. Just speaking my mind. But yet, it still may surprise you on how many people are still undecided about God even though they profess otherwise. I'm guessing the case has been settled for you based upon your reply, but do you speak for all here, or are you just speaking for yourself?

 

For myself, obviously, but knowing what so many others have been through, here, I bet I'm far from alone.

[Strategos]

 

I won't try to convince you of his existence, God wouldn't want that because he wants each and everyone of us to freely come to him, but maybe I can give you a little direction, okay.

 

 

Not a chance, Strategos.  We don't buy what you are selling.

 

I'm not selling anything. In fact, that's the problem with Christens today, they think they have to sell God, but they don't. All Christens have to do is plant the seed and see if it grows.

 

 

I also know there are many Christens who misinterpret the word of God, and in the process, cause a lot of confusion. And others who use God's word for there own gains, whatever that may be, and this sickens me as well. But I understand this: It's not God's word that is corrupt and evil, but man's heart that takes it and uses it for corruption and evil. It's just like saying the gun is doing the killing, and so it is evil, but the truth is, it is the man pulling the trigger for evil intent that is making the gun look like it is doing the killing and is therefor evil.

[Deva]

Strategos:  No one has the "correct" interpretation of the Bible. However, I am sure you think you do. 

 

We do not subscribe to your views of man being "corrupt and evil". 

[emshi21]

Strategos, when you were talking about how you used to do good things more for yourself than for others, but now God has made yourself really compassionate, can you hear yourself? Does it not sound really arrogant? Or is that just how I'm reading it???

[Strategos]

Strategos:  No one has the "correct" interpretation of the Bible. However, I am sure you think you do. 

 

We do not subscribe to your views of man being "corrupt and evil". 

You still speaking for everyone huh? Well, then things have just got a lot easier then. For you see if I get you to bite, then the rest will follow and you won't have a need for this sight anymore. (: JK of course.

 

 

In any case, my offer still stands. And as far as no one having the correct interruption goes, you can't know that because you have not heard everyone’s interpretation right? Logic begets logic.

[Strategos]

Strategos, when you were talking about how you used to do good things more for yourself than for others, but now God has made yourself really compassionate, can you hear yourself? Does it not sound really arrogant? Or is that just how I'm reading it???

No, not at all. This is the problem when it comes to expressing yourself through emails as opposed to talking with someone face to face. You can't see my body language or my expressions when I say, write, things so therefor you can't know if I'm being arrogant or not. In any case, attacking my personal transformation does nothing to discredit what I have said, so you apparently have missed the mark. But that's okay because we all do at times. (: And just for the record, I'm not here to wage a war as a few of you seem to want to do. I just came to answer the op. Besides, not all unbelievers think it is necessary to carry around such a chip on their shoulder to prove they are nonbelievers. In other words, it's not necessary to be mean spirited to prove you are who you say you are, or so I believe. It is what it is though, I guess.

[emshi21]

Sorry if that came across as mean spirited, but when every Christian you know says the same thing and then proceeds to show you no compassion, you start to question the theory.

[Strategos]

Sorry if that came across as mean spirited, but when every Christian you know says the same thing and then proceeds to show you no compassion, you start to question the theory.

I do understand where you are coming from, and np. And you are right, there are many who profess they are Christians and their actions show them to be very different. They are indeed hypocrites and should be treated as such. But the truth is this happens all of the time no matter who we are talking about, be it God or otherwise. People are often not what they profess to be. Then again, lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater, right. There will always be bad apples in the bunch, you know that and so do I. It is what it is.

[Geezer]

 

 

I won't try to convince you of his existence, God wouldn't want that because he wants each and everyone of us to freely come to him, but maybe I can give you a little direction, okay.

 

 

Not a chance, Strategos.  We don't buy what you are selling.

 

I'm not selling anything. In fact, that's the problem with Christens today, they think they have to sell God, but they don't. All Christens have to do is plant the seed and see if it grows.

 

 

I also know there are many Christens who misinterpret the word of God, and in the process, cause a lot of confusion. And others who use God's word for there own gains, whatever that may be, and this sickens me as well. But I understand this: It's not God's word that is corrupt and evil, but man's heart that takes it and uses it for corruption and evil. It's just like saying the gun is doing the killing, and so it is evil, but the truth is, it is the man pulling the trigger for evil intent that is making the gun look like it is doing the killing and is therefor evil.

 

 

Whether or not there is more to our universe & reality than what has thus far been identified is a separate question from whether or not Christianity is true, or that it is the designated “religion” established by this hypothetical unknown and unidentified invisible force. Assuming this hypothetical force or energy exists there is no subjective evidence that “it” in any way directly intervenes in the daily events of creation. Likewise, there is no evidence that this “force” predetermines outcomes or has a specific plan for humanity much less for each individual living person.

 

The idea that mankind is born into a fallen state and will be forever separated from this mysterious hypothetical force due to the sin of one man, Adam, is beyond preposterous. If mankind will be forever “punished” for Adams sin then this “force” is itself evil and vindictive beyond description. Scholars have determined the creation story found in Genesis was written by multiple contributors during the Babylonian captivity. The famous Garden of Eden story apparently is a midrash interpretation taken from Ezekiel 28:11-19 during this same time period.

 

There are lots of invisible energy forces that science has identified as our technology has improved and evolved. It is reasonable to assume there is much that we still do not know. Based on a preponderance of authenticated evidence I can say with confidence that Christianity is a man made religion. Based on the evidence I can say with assurance that Jesus and his disciples were mythical historical characters and that the bible is certainly not true in any literal or historical sense. I can also say the evidence simply will not support any theory of sin, repentance, heaven, or hell being literally true. Developing rewards, punishment, and a way of controlling people are necessary ingredients for creating a religion and the evidence indicates that is how Christianity came to exist.

 

The laws of science, physics, and mathematics allow for predictability. Mathematics is the universal language because it is certain and therefore predicable.  So, where did the laws of science, math, and physics come from? Were they created or did they evolve naturally? I don’t know and that is why I do not identify myself as an atheists. I fluctuate between Deism and being Agnostic because I simply do not know. I can say with certainty there is no valid evidence that indicates God, however God might be defined, exists. So, based on the evidence that now exist I can say with certainty that God, at least the God of the bible, doesn’t exist.

 

I am aware, however, until the technology became available we didn’t know about black holes, dark matter, dark energy, or that quantum physics would reveal an entire micro world of physical phenomena at microscopic scales. Who would have ever believed an object could be in two places at the same time? Then there is the theory of multiple universes and dimensions. When I was a kid that kind of stuff was pure science fiction. We don’t know what we don’t know.

 

If we eventual discover that something we humans might call God does exist it isn’t likely this force or energy will be an anthropomorphic life form that demands worship or something that forgives sin or resurrects the dead so they can been tortured for all eternity because of their moral flaws and human failures. In other words this "god" or energy source won't be anything like the god of the bible.

[Ravenstar]

Paragraphs are good.. just sayin'

 

Well, we all agree that perfection is subjective, but what he's really talking about, or so I believe, is the way things are ordered. Ordered in a way that shows things were made by a creator and not just by random chance. And as far as my faith in God and keeping it, well that comes down to three things.

- You don't understand physics

 

1.) Seeing God work in my life. But how can this be because no one today has seen God right? I mean really seen God. Not true, you are just not looking with the right eyes. Remember, if you seek God you will find him. But how will I find him?

- I sincerely looked for a very long time, nothing.

 

The answer: By looking for his presents. In other words, not looking for his physical form, but the effect of him. Let me explain this a little more by asking a few questions, starting with this one: How did people discover a black hole? How did people discover the atom? How do people discover planets that are way beyond our capability to see? Well, I think you know the answer. They did it by seeing the effects of something that was present but could not physically be seen, right.

 

But how do you see God's presents then? I mean, how was he made known to me?

The answer: In many ways, but let me just explain one for now, that being: I was change from the inside out. I mean really changed. Changed to the point that I know down deep inside that I couldn't have done it myself, nor could anyone else have done it for me. That's because I'm a true believer that we are all self centered at the core from the moment of our birth. I know this because this self preservation is in everyone I have ever known. Take me for example. As I was growing up I didn't care much for other people as long as I got what was mine, whatever that happened to be. And I was like this in everything I did, from the biggest thing to the smallest. This was my religion.

 

Now don't get me wrong folks, I did helped others because in my eyes that's what a good person does, right? But the bottom line, even when I was doing good deeds, was that it was all about me. I mean, helping others made me feel good, brought me a lot of praise, got me noticed, secured help when I needed it. In other words, I was doing it for me more then for them. All in all, it still came down to one thing, that being, I benefited from it, after all, what goes around comes around, right? And this is how I lived my life until God came in and changed the very core of me just by his words alone. Imagine that, being changed, totally reversing the way I feel and think just by his words. And once that happened, I began to see him lingering around me.

 

I tell you now, I had no reason to change in the slightest. I was happy living life pleasing myself. I was completely fine with it. But something inside of me really changed and it is permanent. I feel a love for others that I had never felt before. A compassion for others that wasn't inside of me. And none of this came about because I was sickly or about to die. It came about because God took the old me and tossed it away, then replaced it with the new me. That is the truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God. And this is only one example.

- Confirmation bias

 

2.) The preponderance of the overall evidence, both physical and spiritual, supports the existence of God then then his nonexistence, although this isn't the true foundation of my belief, for all know that we christens walk by faith, or should anyways.

- Please share this preponderance of evidence.

 

3.) By faith. Faith in the evidence I have seen, both physical and spiritual. Faith in my own experiences. And last but not least, faith in the bible which I profess is the true word of God.

-You can profess the bible is the true word of god all you want - but the EVIDENCE does not support that. Faith is believing that which has no evidence... anything that can interact with the natural world will leave evidence (ie: planets around far away stars, black holes, dark matter) Faith is not a virtue, it's delusion.

 

Anyways, these are the reasons, and I know they may not be enough to convince you to revisit the idea that God does exist and loves you, for walking with the Lord is a personal choice, a free choice, given unto you by God himself. However, if you feel like you haven’t considered everything, in other words, given God a fair shake, then email me at swimlikeafish04@yahoo.com and let me see if I can give you that opportunity. I won't try to convince you of his existence, God wouldn't want that because he wants each and everyone of us to freely come to him, but maybe I can give you a little direction, okay.

- Free will is not equivalent to an ultimatum, neither is love, it's the antithesis. As for direction, I doubt it but you are welcome to try.

 

I gave god a fair shake, 40 years almost... nothing. For an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent being he sure doesn't try very hard.

[Ouroboros]

Strategos,

 

Did you mean God's presents or presence?

 

Evil is chaos. Chaos is not order. How can the world be in order and yet have evil (chaos)? Ordered chaos (like chaos theory)? Well, that would make chaos (evil) good.

 

The greater good is when there's balance between chaos and cosmos. Perfect order is stagnation and not motion.

 

Or let me put it another way, if the world is ordered there shouldn't be any evil. Evil is an antithesis to order. Man is evil and the world is ordered contradicts each other. Your worldview is not cohesive. Which would make the TAG false.

[Deva]

 

Strategos:  No one has the "correct" interpretation of the Bible. However, I am sure you think you do. 

 

We do not subscribe to your views of man being "corrupt and evil". 

You still speaking for everyone huh? Well, then things have just got a lot easier then. For you see if I get you to bite, then the rest will follow and you won't have a need for this sight anymore. (: JK of course.

 

 

In any case, my offer still stands. And as far as no one having the correct interruption goes, you can't know that because you have not heard everyone’s interpretation right? Logic begets logic.

 

 

 

I may not have heard everyone's interpretation in all of history, I guess you are right, there, BUT I have read a helluva lot of different ones.  Enough to convince me there is no agreement when it comes to "God's Word". Not to mention the existence of 50,000 different denominations.  Hey, it wouldn't be an issue, except this is supposed to be "the Word of God" and not just a book.  God can't get his act together.  It isn't clear enough.

 

As for speak for others here -  May I rephrase - I am saying you will find it VERY UNLIKELY that any ex-Christian (yep, that's who this site is for) that would support the idea of humans being evil and corrupt by nature.

[mymistake]

 

Strategos, do you really think we haven't heard all of that before, and explored these issues in depth ourselves?  Sheesh.

I'm not presuming anything. Just speaking my mind.

 

But you mind is full of presumptions so that when you speak your mind they all fall out.

 

 

But yet, it still may surprise you on how many people are still undecided about God even though they profess otherwise. I'm guessing the case has been settled for you based upon your reply, but do you speak for all here, or are you just speaking for yourself?

 

 

You only wrote that because the Invisible Pink Unicorns made you do it.  You cannot resist their magic.  You have no choice.  You believe whatever they make you believe.  You do and say whatever they make you do.  You think what they make you think.  You are a robot enslaved to their power.