Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[bornagainathiest]

Some questions on the subject of trolls.

 

1.

Why are we feeding this troll and not asking the Mods to just nuke it?

 

2.

Why this thread?

2a.

Why do the trolls keep popping up here and not elsewhere in the Den?

2b.

Why don't they start their own threads up?

2c.

Is the size of this thread (130 pages) a magnet for them, perhaps?

 

3.

Perhaps JayL's idea of fun is to see how long he can keep this thread going, hoping we won't notice it's him using sock-puppets?

 

4.

As a kind of test, why don't we just ask the Mods to lock this thread for a while and see where the trolls go then?

 

5.

Then, when it's unlocked again, if they return to it, we'll know that it's this thread that attracts them, won't we?

 

BAA

[mcdaddy]

your wisdom is unparalleled, BAA.

 

So it is written, so shall it be done.

 

Amen.

[Spectrox]

Calling a foreign woman a dog is not righteous.

 

 

Excellent post as usual Astreja. Do you have a reference for the dog bit (!) I must have missed that one. Mind you there's so much shite to wade through in the Bible.

 

 

Oh, she must be referring to the time when Jesus called a Canaanite woman as 'dog'. But it is a poor translation. The more accurate translation is 'pet puppie'. So he called her a puppie.

 

Greco, you're either a very unconvincing troll. Or just really, really stupid.

[Ravenstar]

The thread title IS 'Why do you remain a Christian', but other than some blather about 'art'..and other rather pointless statements couched in xianese— not seeing any real answers.

 

As an art historian I have to object- there are much better stories and aesthetics out there than the gospels (it's not very well written either—Plato had much better prose—you'd think the AWESOME CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE would be a better writer, wouldn't you?).

 

It is very old and worn out story with myriad variations in many cultures.. it isn't even remotely original... if one actually reads ancient mythology.... *yawn*

 

(and Hebrews WERE Canaanites [Yahweh is a Canaanite god]—though they didn't like to admit it. Ask Asherah, the goddess they dumped, WAIT! wasn't she the mother of Yahweh? El's wife? anyone? Or his consort...? probably both, deities were really into incest back then... hmmmm.. reminds me of another triad... no more than one )

 

Writing off the entire OT kind of INVALIDATES Jesus though, doesn't it? Didn't he specifically say he came not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it? Doesn't his authority come from the OT? How can you fulfill anything if you don't recognize it?

(Keep Leviticus though.. no, not all of it - just the part about teh GAYS!!!!!. Not the shrimp or pork laws though—it'd ruin the church BBQ)

 

Cherry pickers... so convenient this faith. New Age stuff is pretty much the same, you can pick from week to week what miracle method or cure you are going to follow. (this week it's Acai Berries and angel channeling! LOL, next week reflexology and HAARP conspiracies) It's all the same because it's about loooove and light working, fuzzy bunny feel good stuff, and angels...and synchronicity and answered prayers... and being not really responsible for yourself. The stars aren't right, or god DOES answer prayers, he say yes, no and wait (puke) or you need to just visualize the right way to manifest ack! Yup, not seeing much of a difference really.

 

Well, at least chanting to crystal skulls won't get you fried for eternity if you don't do it right. You might go to Atlantis though. lol

 

If someone honestly said... "because it makes me feel good, and feel less afraid of dying, I need the social structure and approval, and I need to believe to be a better person because I don't think I'm strong enough to do that myself and I'm confused about morals and ethics and even though there is no logical reason to believe, I choose to anyway", I'd fall over.

[Ouroboros]

Cherry pickers... so convenient this faith. New Age stuff is pretty much the same, you can pick from week to week what miracle method or cure you are going to follow.

That's why Christianity is so resilient and continues to change and persist to exist. It allows cherry-picking. In all honesty, we are all cherry-pickers to where we are at this moment. We pick what fits our world views best and how we understand things. Christians have a very limited view of reality, science, sociology, anthropology, psychology, ... and so on, and hence, the limited and outdated religion with a very obscure and multifaceted story-book fits them well. Just pick whatever in the "Book" you believe today.

[Akheia]

I was just thinking that last night as I watched a video of our patron saint NdGT talking about neuropsych and whatnot. Between humanity's advances in philosophy, astronomy, medicine, biology, and archaeology, absolutely the only way to function as a fundie is to close oneself off to a thousand years of science.

 

Ouro, this guy really did sound like JayL to me too.

[Ravenstar]

"Just pick whatever in the "Book" you believe today."

 

It's interesting when you study the history of the church, how many doctrines have been adopted, then set aside, then picked up... interpreted one way, then interpreted another way, discarded, etc... and it all reflects what was going on socially and culturally at whatever particular time.

 

For an extreme example take the witch hunts... poverty, ignorance and disease was rampant—and the male based medical community was just getting a foothold. The Church and the doctors (many probably priests because they were the only ones with any education at the time) needed someone to blame for disease and misery.. the 'wise' women (and midwives) were easy targets, and a threat to the physicians as well. So.. let's use the "You shall not suffer a witch to live" scripture. Which blew up into the Inquisition later as well. For those who know this history the witches and heretics lands were confiscated along with the burning, hanging and torture (which kept the serfs from rising up and rebelling because of the nasty living conditions—nothing like a little fear to keep the labor in line, as well as lining the pockets of the nobles and the Church) It's a great example of fear-mongering, divide and conquer... look over there! strategy. AND IT WORKED... until the protestant reformation and the enlightenment. (Funny what KNOWLEDGE and EDUCATION can do, huh?)

 

Today it's TEH GAYS!!!!!! *sigh*

[Akheia]

And uppity women, don't forget. Akin's foul morass of a campaign is doubling down on the "dog" comparisons with his opponent of late, implying that she's just not a "nice lady" anymore. OH BOO HOO TODD AKIN DON'T WIKE HER NOW THAT SHE'S NOT KEEPIN SWEET

 

They know they're losing the war on gays; it's just a matter of time before they swing around to pursuing the other arm of their agenda, the anti-woman crusade, full-time.

[♦ ficino ♦]

If someone honestly said... "because it makes me feel good, and feel less afraid of dying, I need the social structure and approval, and I need to believe to be a better person because I don't think I'm strong enough to do that myself and I'm confused about morals and ethics and even though there is no logical reason to believe, I choose to anyway", I'd fall over.

Hey, this all sounds really great. You've almost got me reconverted, Ravenstar!

[Ravenstar]

If someone honestly said... "because it makes me feel good, and feel less afraid of dying, I need the social structure and approval, and I need to believe to be a better person because I don't think I'm strong enough to do that myself and I'm confused about morals and ethics and even though there is no logical reason to believe, I choose to anyway", I'd fall over.

Hey, this all sounds really great. You've almost got me reconverted, Ravenstar!

 

Yes.. but reconverted to what?

 

 

Ahhh... teh uppity wimmins. Have we no SHAME! How dare we be more than arm candy, masturbation devices and incubators! (and unpaid servants). Sheesh—what were we thinking?

 

RADICAL MEN_HATING FEMINIST DYKES!!! Hell-bent on destroying the FAMILY... that's what we are, you know. It's what we live for... mwahahahahahahahaha

(shhhhh....they don't know about the secret anti-family strategy sessions we have in bathrooms across the world—yup, the REAL reason women go to the can in pairs and groups—we're plotting their destruction and having icky lesbian sex and no, they can't watch!!)

 

I wonder how many men really wonder if GAWD made a mistake by actually giving us more brains than we really need to do more than wipe our butts? Isn't it funny that men have always been the 'keepers' of religion? hmmm..... wouldn't be about power or anything, would it?

 

It's a good thing we are over-populated... because, and this is the truth... if there were a need for more chilluns... it would quickly be legislated and we could do nothing about it. I'm not joking. pro-life, pro-choice whatever aside—our reproductive freedom is IMPERATIVE to our freedom as people, no matter what anyone's personal feeling on it.

 

hmmm... women. yup, might be next. Studies have been done (can't cite at the moment) that when women are given equal rights, and equal education all sorts of good things happen... but it boils down to men not having all the control. I can see a backlash there.. and it's apparent in our media and it's rampant sexualization, objectification and exploitation of women which is increasing along with womens equality. *sigh*.

 

We need more punks again... shake things up a little.

[Akheia]

Oh you laugh about women plotting, but my husband's got two women on his team at work who are very religious and just got pregnant for the first time (both married... of course!). They were both up-and-comers at work, very bright and capable women, but both have fallen into the "I Give Up Forever" mom-to-be mode--they're uncomfortable even at this relatively early date in their pregnancies, and both are clearly seeing how hard it's going to be to juggle parenthood and work. So both have been plotting together how to coerce their husbands into not having to go back to work after the babies come. So far, the "push the going-back date off and off until he stops asking" tactic appears to be winning. They're making financial charts for just how barely they could squeak by if they cut off every single frill and luxury and he works 10 hours OT a week or whatever; they're starting the "I'm not sure I'd be able to go back that early" talks already to prime the pump, so to speak. They talk about it constantly when they think they're alone, but at work, it's so crowded that nobody's ever really alone. It's heartbreaking to hear about their fall, but chilling for my husband and the other men who've overheard them. Well, less so for my husband, whose wife is sterilized, but the other men are doing some quick mental arithmetic and noticing shit ain't adding up chez leur.

 

The "let's not breed till we're really sure we've got this thing" tactic did not appear to get discussed. They're women, and they're religious, which means that the idea of holding off kids till the couple was more established financially and being honest and up-front about their desires not to work afterward did not come up until it was way too late.

[Ravenstar]

Sad... and it makes the rest of us look like conniving deceitful people too. *sigh*

 

But I do have good news! (hehe) I have a teenager... (I eavesdrop-it's a necessary evil with a teenager) and her and her friends are actually questioning whether they ever want children, or even if they want to get married. At least that's a start... for young women to even consider that being child free (and even husband free) is an option for them is a step in the right direction. Society IS changing (albeit a little too slow for me).

 

Don't know if you've been there but I think you would adore this website: www heartlessbitches dotcom

[Akheia]

Joined 'em 10 years ago and got accepted on the first application. Their series on Nice Guys should be required reading for all men.

 

I'm so happy to hear about your teenager questioning those life scripts! I love your parenting style. So many parents just wing it and then expect the kid to magically turn into a thoughtful, responsible adult as soon as they blow out their birthday candles. My own mom was completely cool with me not wanting kids. I told her when I was like 14 or 15 or so and she just said maybe it was time we talked about birth control. And that was that. I got more hell from my friends and in-laws than I got from my own mother about my life choice. Fundies aren't content to be miserable by themselves. They need a lot of company. And they tend to view dissenters as living, breathing personal attacks on their own choices.

[centauri]

Fundies aren't content to be miserable by themselves. They need a lot of company. And they tend to view dissenters as living, breathing personal attacks on their own choices.

How true, and that thinking applies to virtually every aspect of their agenda.

By failing to accept their propaganda you're stepping on their "freedom".

You're persecuting them for daring to hold them accountable for their ill conceived claims.

Expressing critical thinking in response to their claims equates to persecution.

They play the victim card by saying that your refusal to accept their beliefs tries to take away their "freedom".

[Ravenstar]

You really have to wonder if they know what real happiness is, don't ya?

 

Like when they insinuate that us ungodly heathens are miserable... and not really unbelievers. Projection much?

 

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm much happier now... AND I understand freedom isn't just freedom of, but freedom from. (it applies to everyone too, but don't tell them that, their heads might asplode!)

[Ravenstar]

HA! I recognized a fellow HBI'er!

 

yup.. the nice guys stuff is awesome. I think I'll print it out for my kid.

[Akheia]

I have personally converted WAY more "nice guys" to being "good guys" than I ever converted non-believers to fundamentalism. Funny how much more effective such efforts are when the problem is perceptibly real, the fix achievable, and the methods life-affirming.

[bronxo]

I have personally converted WAY more "nice guys" to being "good guys" than I ever converted non-believers to fundamentalism. Funny how much more effective such efforts are when the problem is perceptibly real, the fix achievable, and the methods life-affirming.

 

Where do I sign up?

[Akheia]

Nice Guys - BLEAH!

 

 

Application form - they're not an easy crowd, but I bet you'd make it.

[duderonomy]

"Just pick whatever in the "Book" you believe today."

 

It's interesting when you study the history of the church, how many doctrines have been adopted, then set aside, then picked up... interpreted one way, then interpreted another way, discarded, etc... and it all reflects what was going on socially and culturally at whatever particular time.

 

For an extreme example take the witch hunts... poverty, ignorance and disease was rampant—and the male based medical community was just getting a foothold. The Church and the doctors (many probably priests because they were the only ones with any education at the time) needed someone to blame for disease and misery.. the 'wise' women (and midwives) were easy targets, and a threat to the physicians as well. So.. let's use the "You shall not suffer a witch to live" scripture. Which blew up into the Inquisition later as well. For those who know this history the witches and heretics lands were confiscated along with the burning, hanging and torture (which kept the serfs from rising up and rebelling because of the nasty living conditions—nothing like a little fear to keep the labor in line, as well as lining the pockets of the nobles and the Church) It's a great example of fear-mongering, divide and conquer... look over there! strategy. AND IT WORKED... until the protestant reformation and the enlightenment. (Funny what KNOWLEDGE and EDUCATION can do, huh?)

 

Today it's TEH GAYS!!!!!! *sigh*

 

Ravenstar,

 

Not looking to argue, but don't forget that there are several Christian churches mentioned in the New Testement. The Pauline letters address many, the rest of the epistles address many (or all), and the book of Revelation talks about seven in particular. Most of the churches in the N.T. were scolded/corrected/chastised/out right damned for the way they were. You shouldn't treat all churches the same, because the Bible doesn't.

 

I'm just thickening the soup, as it were.

[Ravenstar]

hmmm... I had just used the Catholic church as my example, because I know more about their history than I do any others and in the scale of 2000 years they have had the biggest influence....but usually when I say 'church' I am referring to christendom as a whole. More of an holistic historical view

 

I do treat them all the same though I guess.

 

Paul was an asshole. Just sayin'

[♦ ficino ♦]

Ironically, Jesus is exactly what the Hebrew God warned his people not to follow.

According to the Bible, to be reconciled with God requires repenting and keeping the law.

Jesus isn't involved.

 

 

 

That is a very interesting view point. Boy, we can talk for hours just on that one point.

 

Greco is JayL. Compare #1497 (I think it is) on this thread.

[♦ ficino ♦]

greco8088 tell us all about your testimony of how you became a Christian?

 

 

 

 

Take for example the Passion story of Jesus suffering, death and resurrection. In Gospel narrative as handed down to us from 2000 years ago. There is so much power there ! The whole story involves this utter despair and then this miraculous triumph that can inspire so much art - whether literature or painting or music.

 

strengths keep us going and living the Christian life. It is not in the brain. It is in the heart. Does this make sense? I will try again sometimes..

 

Greco is JayL. Compare #1574 on this thread.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Your words sound exactly like every other Christian. I used to talk just like you. Just parroting the baloney other Christians told me.

 

 

 

Yeah, OK, I do admit that I watched the movie 'Apostle' too many times.... I am just trying to have some fun here.... )

 

Greco is JayL. Compare #1574 on this thread.

[Ouroboros]

Forgot to tell. Grecco was banned a couple of days ago. Just to confirm everyone's suspicion, he was JayL. The very same.