Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[mymistake]

 

I also know there are many Christens who misinterpret the word of God, and in the process, cause a lot of confusion.

 

 

The big tip off that somebody misinterprets the Bible is if they call it the "word of God".

 

 

And others who use God's word for there own gains, whatever that may be, and this sickens me as well.

 

 

They are called pastors and priests.  They are the ones who collect the offering  . . . you know their own gain.

 

 

 

But I understand this: It's not God's word that is corrupt and evil, but man's heart that takes it and uses it for corruption and evil.

 

 

There is no "God's word".  It doesn't exist.  There is no such thing.

 

 

 

It's just like saying the gun is doing the killing, and so it is evil, but the truth is, it is the man pulling the trigger for evil intent that is making the gun look like it is doing the killing and is therefor evil.

 

 

The Bible is the word of men.

[falemon]

I'm not selling anything. In fact, that's the problem with Christens today, they think they have to sell God, but they don't. All Christens have to do is plant the seed and see if it grows.

 

 

I also know there are many Christens who misinterpret the word of God, and in the process, cause a lot of confusion. And others who use God's word for there own gains, whatever that may be, and this sickens me as well. But I understand this: It's not God's word that is corrupt and evil, but man's heart that takes it and uses it for corruption and evil. It's just like saying the gun is doing the killing, and so it is evil, but the truth is, it is the man pulling the trigger for evil intent that is making the gun look like it is doing the killing and is therefor evil.

If you take the metaphor of sowing seeds and and verb of selling and replace it with the actions required to satisfy the activity, how do they differ?

 

Are they not both exercises in taking someone from the point A of not believing to the point B of believing?

 

I've been trained heavily in sales, trust me when I say that the bible pretty much contains a sales guidebook for dummies You wouldn't believe the amount of business seminars I've been on where they show you parallels between good sales and being a good christian.

 

One of the top selling Business Plan books pretty much describes Paul as the best sales and business men of all time. Christianity is like the super template for marketing, sales, retention and peer training. Probably the most successful MLM scheme of all time.

[Deva]

The idea that mankind is born into a fallen state and will be forever separated from this mysterious hypothetical force due to the sin of one man, Adam, is beyond preposterous. If mankind will be forever “punished” for Adams sin then this “force” is itself evil and vindictive beyond description. Scholars have determined the creation story found in Genesis was written by multiple contributors during the Babylonian captivity. The famous Garden of Eden story apparently is a midrash interpretation taken from Ezekiel 28:11-19 during this same time period.

 

Quoted again for truth.  The moronic idea of  "original sin" has done more damage to people than almost anything I can think of, except maybe end times rapture BS - and that is also in "God's Word."

[mymistake]

 

 

1.) Seeing God work in my life. But how can this be because no one today has seen God right? I mean really seen God. Not true, you are just not looking with the right eyes. Remember, if you seek God you will find him. But how will I find him?

The answer: By looking for his presents. In other words, not looking for his physical form, but the effect of him. Let me explain this a little more by asking a few questions, starting with this one: How did people discover a black hole? How did people discover the atom? How do people discover planets that are way beyond our capability to see? Well, I think you know the answer. They did it by seeing the effects of something that was present but could not physically be seen, right.

 

 

This is a lie.  There is no seeing God.  There is only imagining God.  There is no effect of God.  The closest thing there is to God is your own imagination.  You can have a relationship with your own imagination and call that God.  People discovered atoms and black holes by following the evidence.  There is no evidence that there is a God.

 

 

 

 

But how do you see God's presents then? I mean, how was he made known to me?

The answer: In many ways, but let me just explain one for now, that being: I was change from the inside out. I mean really changed. Changed to the point that I know down deep inside that I couldn't have done it myself, nor could anyone else have done it for me. That's because I'm a true believer that we are all self centered at the core from the moment of our birth. I know this because this self preservation is in everyone I have ever known. Take me for example. As I was growing up I didn't care much for other people as long as I got what was mine, whatever that happened to be. And I was like this in everything I did, from the biggest thing to the smallest. This was my religion.

 

More lies.  You just made decisions.  Anybody can turn over a new leaf.  Many have without your God.  You might justify yourself this way but that doesn't make your imaginary friend real.

 

 

Now don't get me wrong folks, I did helped others because in my eyes that's what a good person does, right? But the bottom line, even when I was doing good deeds, was that it was all about me. I mean, helping others made me feel good, brought me a lot of praise, got me noticed, secured help when I needed it. In other words, I was doing it for me more then for them. All in all, it still came down to one thing, that being, I benefited from it, after all, what goes around comes around, right?

 

 

You don't need God to have a moral compass.  What matters is that good is done.  It is those who fear no God and expect no reward who act from the best motives.  Christians believe they are being watched and all their deeds are known.

 

 

 

And this is how I lived my life until God came in and changed the very core of me just by his words alone. Imagine that, being changed, totally reversing the way I feel and think just by his words.

 

Imagine is exactly right.  It's all in your imagination.  You change you.  There is no need for you to give credit to somebody who doesn't exist.

 

 

And once that happened, I began to see him lingering around me.

 

Again you imagin it.  You see the words in this message.  You imagine God.

 

 

2.) The preponderance of the overall evidence, both physical and spiritual, supports the existence of God then then his nonexistence, although this isn't the true foundation of my belief, for all know that we christens walk by faith, or should anyways.

 

You are seriously delusional.  There is no spiritual evidence.  There is no evidence of God.  You've been brainwashed so bad you don't even understand what evidence means.  Faith is being stupid. 

 

 

3.) By faith.

 

 

Did you know you can change the order of the letters in the word "faith" to spell out gullible?  Don't try it yourself.  Simply trust me and know that it is the truth.

 

 

Faith in the evidence . . . 

 

Faith is the opposite of following evidence.  Your world view is upside down and backwards.  You probably think hate is love and love is hate.

 

 I won't try to convince you of his existence, God wouldn't want that because he wants each and everyone of us to freely come to him . . .

 

God is too busy pretending that he doesn't exist.  That is all God ever does.  Say a prayer and God will do nothing as if he doesn't exist.  And it's not possible for people to freely come to God if they have no reason to believe he exists.  But of course you never hesitate to tell people what God thinks or what God wants because you are always in contact with your imagination.  That is how you have your personal relationship with yourself.

[Onyx]

Salvation is not in the bible nor is it in the latest Dawkins book, that's for damn sure. Really, salvation and redemption is completely up to us, rather than gods or God or goddesses and to say nothing of afterlives, which will remain only speculation until we die.

 

If Man fell, it was just an individual person like Hitler. Essentially, Adam's fall, passing his sin onto his children is akin to forcing Jews to shoulder Hitler's crimes. Nobody deserves to have that sort of shadow hanging over them, and it's actually the criminal/sinner's responsbility and nobody else. That is what makes Original Sin so vile. It restricts humanity - both collectively and individually - from genuinely redeeming itself. In reality, if original sin was in effect, Adam cannot redeem himself, if ever, due to some god telling him that he's unworthy of being a better person and it will hurt his children. Even after Jesus, the way it's going, it seemed to have never change. If that was the reality.

 

How can you consider that moral, an action of a loving god, if he would condemn his created children to the equivalent of Death row until they are forced to bend themselves to his will and live? That shows contempt for us all, and if you believe in this stuff, how would this would make you moral either? Better to let such a god go, if you don't think this is right. We have brains after all.

[midniterider]

 

Strategos:  No one has the "correct" interpretation of the Bible. However, I am sure you think you do. 

 

We do not subscribe to your views of man being "corrupt and evil". 

You still speaking for everyone huh? Well, then things have just got a lot easier then. For you see if I get you to bite, then the rest will follow and you won't have a need for this sight anymore. (: JK of course.

 

 

In any case, my offer still stands. And as far as no one having the correct interruption goes, you can't know that because you have not heard everyone’s interpretation right? Logic begets logic.

 

 

I got a word from God today. He said you're full of shit. :-)

[midniterider]

 

Strategos:  No one has the "correct" interpretation of the Bible. However, I am sure you think you do. 

 

We do not subscribe to your views of man being "corrupt and evil". 

You still speaking for everyone huh? Well, then things have just got a lot easier then. For you see if I get you to bite, then the rest will follow and you won't have a need for this sight anymore. (: JK of course.

 

 

In any case, my offer still stands. And as far as no one having the correct interruption goes, you can't know that because you have not heard everyone’s interpretation right? Logic begets logic.

 

 

Christianity begets stupidity.

[raoul]

 

Strategos:  No one has the "correct" interpretation of the Bible. However, I am sure you think you do. 

 

We do not subscribe to your views of man being "corrupt and evil". 

You still speaking for everyone huh? Well, then things have just got a lot easier then. For you see if I get you to bite, then the rest will follow and you won't have a need for this sight anymore. (: JK of course.

 

 

In any case, my offer still stands. And as far as no one having the correct interruption goes, you can't know that because you have not heard everyone’s interpretation right? Logic begets logic.

 

Your alleged experiences and 'testimony' means nothing to me and I assume the others around here. They are simply the musings of a deluded xtian mired in the cult. All of us have claimed, in the past, many of the same things you have stated here. The difference of course is that we concluded, after extensive and sometimes painful/agonizing processes, that your belief system is nothing more than a hot air balloon of lies and delusions. Everything you've spouted here has already been refuted in toto many times before. If you were really intellectually honest you would be willing to undergo the vigors of a formal debate regarding any of the premises you posited. You, like the rest in your cult, simply ignore such requests and go on preaching and preaching ad nauseum. Example - one person asked you to show your overwhelming evidence for a god's existence. Your response? Nothing! Just like you alleged faith - nothing.

[Ravenstar]

If the emotional appeal doesn't work - they got nothin'

[raoul]

If the emotional appeal doesn't work - they got nothin'

You got that right! And the ironic thing is that even though they use emotional blackmail (he died for you, we're so unworthy, how much greater the god is, et.al.), when it comes to empirical observations, life experiences, reality, etc., they are the FIRST ones to preach about 'not going by our feelings and just follow the god' or 'we can't have our circumstances get in the way of our walk', etc.

I guess they never learned what 'hypocrisy' meant.

[falemon]

 

If the emotional appeal doesn't work - they got nothin'

You got that right! And the ironic thing is that even though they use emotional blackmail (he died for you, we're so unworthy, how much greater the god is, et.al.), when it comes to empirical observations, life experiences, reality, etc., they are the FIRST ones to preach about 'not going by our feelings and just follow the god' or 'we can't have our circumstances get in the way of our walk', etc.

I guess they never learned what 'hypocrisy' meant.

 

I think something like this is alluded to in the 48 laws of power. Basically to exert power over people appear mystical, appear to have achieved your position by means of unobtainable magic, claiming they can achieve it by following you

[raoul]

I think something like this is alluded to in the 48 laws of power. Basically to exert power over people appear mystical, appear to have achieved your position by means of unobtainable magic, claiming they can achieve it by following you

Yes - another good point. In fact, while I'm writing this I'm listening to some pulpit pimp (clergy) literally begging for money to stay on the air. He begs every 6 months during the entire hour of the show by playing to emotions and weaknesses. He reads alleged testimonies from people he supposedly has helped through his teachings. He just read one letter which claimed that his show is the ONLY one that preaches the REAL thing. And he continues ad nauseum about how 'god' has delivered his ministry time after time - miraculous as he puts it. Yet he shamelessly begs the listeners, over and over, for the money. I just scratch my head in wonder over how people can be led by the nose so easily.

[Akheia]

Wow, I'm out for a few days and miss another arrogant Christian showing up and telling us we just never searched for God?

 

That's a hell of a statement, and it just isn't true. But the alternative--that we searched on our knees for years, wept tears of blood, howled our distress to the skies, begged for the merest crumb of exact same undeniable proof that God routinely gave people in both the Old and New Testaments, and got nothing but a nice view of the ceiling from all our effort--is scary beyond imagining to Strategos. If we're just like him, if we were once just as sure as he was, if we once believed just as fervently as he does, and we do not now, then that shatters his entire mythology.

 

And @Strategos... dude, saying that your fake god gives us "free will" is bullshit. Free will is not mentioned in the Bible. But spiritual extortion threats aren't free will. If a rapist holds a knife to your throat and tells you that he'll kill you if you resist, you're not exactly being given free will there, are you? But that is exactly what Yahweh does. "Believe, or you will suffer." Even if it were possible to believe something that I know is false (YOU try it--Now! Believe in pink unicorns controlling everybody on Earth!), that's about the most morally contemptible god I can possibly imagine. And I'm a pagan and a tabletop gamer, so you know I've come up with some doozies of gods. Alas, abuse victims are usually the last ones to realize that they're in an abusive relationship, and I was no exception to that observation, and neither are you.

 

Thankfully, no objective evidence suggests the existence of either a supreme omnimax god or that any of the Bible's promises or threats are true. All the evidence you have, by contrast, depends 100% on someone giving you the benefit of the doubt and suspending all disbelief. If all of your evidence hinges on the belief of the person observing the evidence, it isn't evidence. Evidence is evidence no matter who is observing or what his/her beliefs might be, if any. And now I have planted a seed, and I'll see how it grows...

[SquareOne]

 

Ok, very good responses, which I won't question. One more question, though. How did the universe appear? The planets, stars, etc. I do agree I am not here to preach, but to find answers for my questions. So far I've gotten very good answers.

The universe didn't appear out of nothing. The law of conservation of mass-energy dictates that it was always here in one form or another. Matter can change into energy and energy into matter, but it cannot be created nor destroyed.

 

 

Though, this leaves the question of how there was always "something" rather than "nothing".

 

And the answer is - we don't know.

 

There are many hypotheses, but to the best of my knowledge there is no unifying scientific theory that explains the origin of reality.

 

For an atheist, it is ok to say that we do not know, and keep searching for answers.

 

I would add that it does not solve the problem to say "God did it", because this does beg the question, why was there always a God rather than no God, to which all the theist can say is "we don't know".

 

As an atheist, do I believe that there is a possibility that God exists?  Absolutely.  There is a lot of mystery about the origin of the universe, and a higher power that we would regard as being supernatural could be the reason.  However, I have no evidence on which to support such a belief, and indeed it flies counter to everything we have so far learned about the natural universe.

 

In any event - even IF - there is a God - I am 99.9% percent certain that it is not YHWH of the Hebrew scriptures.  A deeper knowledge of the history of the scriptures would lead you to the same conclusion.

 

But that is a frightening road, and I would not encourage you to take it unless you are ready to have your entire world view shattered.

[raoul]

Amazing isn't it? I mean, how they ALL behave the same way - post some bullshit, dance around serious challenges hurled by the opponents, and then run the hell away with their tails between their legs. Typical cult like behavior...

[Ravenstar]

There's a script in a public bathroom somewhere that they all get their modus operandi from, I swear!

 

[raoul]

There's a script in a public bathroom somewhere that they all get their modus operandi from, I swear!

 

Yet another good one from you - thanks. Interestingly enough, I'm in the last part of an almost 2 hr debate between Dan Barker and a xtian named Jason Gastrich regarding quite a few things about the 'hallowed word of god'. Barker is tearing him a new one in a very nice manner while Gastrich is doing exactly what I just described earlier regarding their behavior. The only left for him to do is to run away which hasn't happened yet but I expect a hasty exist soon. LOL

[the stranger]

 

Stranger, I see you've moved and may not read this for a while, but I do want to respond to one thing. I suspect that eventually you'll be back and see it.

 

the Christian doctrine on once saved always saved is not biblicak.

Really? Do you not remember last year when I posted two things (either in this thread or the other one we were debating in) that I had written when I was a Christian and you praised them and said I could've been a pastor? One of those was on the very subject of eternal security, showing that it is biblical. Why are you now saying it's not biblical when you so enthusiastically supported that piece? Here it is again, to refresh your memory:         I apoligize. I do not remember much of this conversation but it was possible I was just commenting on your insight and not your doctrine as it seemed pointless. I have been against this view for a long time.

 

 

 

Can A Christian Lose His/Her Salvation?

 

The Bible tells us that we were saved by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We were buried with Christ through baptism into death in order that we may "live a new life" (Romans 6:4) and that "the body of sin might be done away with" (Romans 6:6). And, since "our old self was crucified with Him" (Romans 6:6), we have been "freed from sin" (Romans 6:7). "Since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again" (Romans 6:9), and we are to, "in the same way," count ourselves "dead to sin but alive to God" (Romans 6:11), and to not let sin master us, because we are "not under law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14). Christ came to "set us free" from the law (Galatians 5:1).

 

We also read that no one who continues in a lifestyle of sin has "either seen Him or known Him" (1 John 3:6).  the KJV uses "cannot". This word can also mean cannot with choice, as, should not or not normal under the situation. This can be seen in 2 Peter 2:14; 1 John 5:18; Ezera 10:13; and Deuteronomy 24:2. In 1 John 5:15, we can see clearly without full understanding we might ask God for a jet and expect to receive it.  After all, God never destroys free will. It also needs to be understood in the context of 1 John 5:16 (sin that leads to death) and the passage of John 15 where choice is ours, even upon choosing.  "We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:2) "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him" (1 John 3:9). Same principle here. By our new nature, a repeated and proud sinning goes against that new nature, not that it can not be done.These are clearly referring to a deliberate continuance in sin. Of course, this is not to say that Christians never commit any sin, for even the Apostle Paul had struggles with sin. It is significant to note, though, that the sins he struggled with were not things he wanted to do, but rather were things he actually hated (Romans 7:15). Why did he hate sin? It was his desire to please God, for he was "crucified with Christ" and he no longer lived, but Christ lived in him (Galatians 2:20).

 

Though we struggle with sin, we are clothed in Christ's righteousness (1 Corinthians 1:30) and thus are "made perfect forever" (Hebrews 10:14).He has perfected, not that He has made us choose. He has made away to be perfected forever. This righteousness is "by faith from first to last" (Romans 1:17), meaning that it begins and finishes with faith rather than works. Since Jesus is the "Author and Perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), it is God who makes us "stand firm in Christ" (2 Corinthians 1:21). The believer is marked in Christ with the "seal" (denoting ownership) of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), who is a "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (Ephesians 1:14).deposite is the word used here, and a great story is used, with the root of this Greek word, in Genesis 38:17-20. We must follow through on our end. In the same book of Eph. in 5:3-7 Paul makes clear those who proudly sin will not get to heaven. While it is true the Holy Spirit contunues to reside inside of us, we can grieve EPH 4:30 and we can put out the Spirits fire Isaiah 63:10. Infact, punishment must be given for those who never come back to God HEB. 10:29 It relates well with MATT 12:31-32 and REV 13:5

 

Jesus Himself said, "Whoever hears My Word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned" (John 5:24).Believes, a continues believing, of which follows a following of As such, eternal life is something that the true believer presently possesses, and one cannot come to an end of something that is eternal. Jesus also said that those to whom He has given eternal life "shall never perish" (John 10:28). His sheep that FOLLOW HimHe said that His sheep listen to His voice and follow Him, and He knows those who belong to Him (John 10:27). Indeed, nothing in all creation can separate true Christians from "the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39).True, nothing can separate us from the love of God on this earth. That does not mean we need to give love back. John 14:23; James 1:12 and our sins separate us from God Isaiah 59:2 and Amos 3:3

 

Scripture tells us that "those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" (Romans 8:29), and those who were predestined He also called, justified and glorified (Romans 8:30). Therefore, we can say with confidence that the believer is a "new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Corinthians 5:17) Paul goes as far as to say that we who are born again are already "seated with [Christ] in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 2:6).Predestined, knowing all who will follow Him until the end, also knowing those who will not.

 

Being this new creation clothed in Christ's righteousness, our faith requires action because "faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" (James 2:17). If it really is faith, won't it be evidenced in actions? "Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" (Matthew 7:17-18). A true, regenerated believer is the only one who can really, from the heart, bear good (Godly) fruit. In fact, our whole purpose is "to do good works" (Ephesians 2:10) and to "bear fruit to God" (Romans 7:4).But if not we will be cut down and burned

 

Although some say they know someone who used to be a Christian but now isn't, the Bible tells us that "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" (1 John 2:19). There is a clear distinction between those who "shrink back and are destroyed" and those who "believe and are saved" (Hebrews 10:39). If we do not "hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first," then we have not "come to share in Christ" (Hebrews 3:14).This clearly illistrates they at one time were considered to be brethren and sister. This also can be seen in 2 Corinthians 13:2-6; 1 Timothy 1:19-20; 2 Timothy 1:15; James 5:19-20; 2 Peter 2:14-15, 20-22; 3 John 9-10

 

Jesus plainly said, "First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean" (Matthew 23:26). And again, the Bible tells us, "No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him" (1 John 3:6), speaking of a deliberate (defiant) continuance in sin.

 

The problem with modern churchianity is that we seem to have forgotten the true meaning of repentance. We seem to think that quoting a "sinner's prayer" and promising to do better will save us. However, our focus is on us praying and on us doing, but not really on what Christ has already done. But Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).

 

When we truly begin to grasp just who Christ is -- God the Son (Hebrews 1:8) -- and the fact that any righteous act of ours is but "filthy rags" to God (Isaiah 64:6), we begin to realize that we are nothing! The "poor in spirit" are the ones to whom is given "the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:3). We must realize how spiritually bankrupt we are before God (Luke 18:10-14). How can we try to stand on anything we've done, even if it is reciting a "sinner's prayer"? Without Christ's sacrifice, such a prayer wouldn't do anything!

 

Indeed, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God knows who are His, and they are forever His. As the picture Jesus gave of a Shepherd and His sheep (John 10:11), so is the body of Christ. The sheep are totally dependent on the Shepherd (John 10:5), and no one can snatch them out of His hand (John 10:28). When one wanders, He goes and finds it (Matthew 18:12)! And when He finds it, it will follow Him (John 10:27).

 

In the one who is truly born again, "God's seed remains; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.... Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God" (1 John 3:9-10). "Everyone born of God overcomes the world" (1 John 5:4). God's grace doesn't run out, but it will change us.

 

Of course, there are a few passages that Christians use to counter these, but they typically have contextual explanations that fit rather well in the doctrine of eternal security (or Perseverance of the Saints). If any do not, then we have another contradiction within the already inconsistent Bible.

 

At any rate, I hope your move went well and that you're doing fine. Take care....

 

Ezekiel 18 makes this doctrine very clearly false. Hebrews chapter 6 and 10 also do the same.

 

In saying that, thank you for your best wishes and I am looking forward to talking with you again.

 

 

 

 

 

Christianity leaves us with several propositions (maybe their number can be reduced or some can be better worded):

1. God wills all things

2. God is the first cause of all effects and events, which include human decisions and actions

3. humans make decisions

4. humans are morally responsible for their decisions

5.

humans deserve to be rewarded or punished for the decisions they

make/acts they commit (I include mental acts like having faith)

6. God's rewarding or punishing humans is just

7.

a necessary condition for rewards and punishments to be just is that

the recipients had the ability to act otherwise than they did ( = had

free will)

 

You cannot hold all of these without contradiction, as

you are trying to do. You can have free will or God's sovereignty but

not both.

 

Some strategies:

1. continue to be a Christian by denying one of the terms, i.e. become a Calvinist or believe in a limited or finite God

2. drop the whole belief system as entailing pseudo-problems like this one

3.

hold to contradictory propositions (or propositions whose implications

entail contradictions) anyway and say that they are antinomies (a term

used by J.I. Packer re: God's sovereignty and human moral

responsibility) or mysteries that we cannot understand because we are

finite and/or sinful. A rhetorical move is to shift emphasis to an

attack on the other person's character, that the unbeliever is sinful

and sees such contradictions as objections because s/he does not want to

submit to God. As a step in an argument this would be an ad hominem

fallacy.

 

A sophisticated version of 1. is being pushed on here by

Ordinary Clay, who holds that a particular take on God's foreknowledge

is enough to safeguard human free will and account for God's control of

all events. Centauri, BAA, I and others do not think this "take"

(called Molinism) succeeds. For one, it goes against too much scripture

about God's omnipotence and God's causing all things.

 

I believe

of course that only 2 is really worthy, but maybe believing in a limited

or finite God is the least bad of the other strategies. Emphasizing

the idea that God is love and that God tries to bring people to himself

might square with your perceptions, Stranger, though I still find it

difficult to see how you can worship God if you imagine Him as saying "I

love you and I'm dropping you into hell for eternity that I designed

beforehand because you didn't worship me."

 

OK, catch you later, Stranger.

 

 

 (1) God knows all things, and allowes, makes, things happen.

(2) Just because God knows all things does not leave God responsible. If it is His will that all come to Himself, and hell was made not for humans, but for Satan and his angels (though God did know who would all be included) than how can we blame God? If God allows pain to hopefully draw us to Himself how can we be mad at God? Even up on knowing every decision we will ever make, how is it Gods fault we make those decisions? Forknowledge cannot mean responsibility unless one takes away free will. One may say God could bring a situation that would make anyone confess but the story in Luke (poor man and Laz.. tells us differently). One could say if God knew who would not serve Him then why would He allow them to be born? If allowing him to be born allows many more to believe, knowing it is his own choosing and responsibility, why do we blame God. If anything, maybe we should give Him praise for working out so many to be saved.

 

 I see no problem believing both. In fact, if my God did not know the future could I truly put all of my faith in Him? Anyone who wants to follow the truth can. He does not disallow anyone to follow Him. In fact, He wants and wills all to follow Him. He created us for His glory and to have fellowship with us. A mean God would never allow choice. Free will is what makes serving God so great.

 

You say things could not turn out other wise. To the extent of the forknowledge of God goes you are right. If He directs and knows all hearts, including those who will rebell or continue in a non belief, why is this still not self responsibility?

 

It is not only easy to have it both ways it is impossible not to.

 

 

 

You do understand nimrod that at the time of the first large scale

scinetific discoveries there was no other explanation for the universe

and existence except for God right?

 

I hear this alot, especially

with Issac Newton, "WELL DUH NEWTON BAR....I MEAN FIG NEWTON... I MEAN

ISSAC NETWON GUY WAS A CHRISTIAN SO GAWD IS REAL."

 

There was no

alternate theory at the time when this man made his discoveries, so your

point is invalid. What these men unknowingly did was create a world

where God was unnessesary, No star needs God to form and no economic

system needs God for business transactions.

 

 Choosing God or making exscuses has always been a choice from the very beginning. Thus partly why men worshiped God's from the very beginning. There has always been choices and options on what to believe. By the way, this very thing is what makes test results different. Each is based on a different beginning or orgin, concept or idea. The answers will always lay at the feet of the base.

 

 

 Stranger, I'm new to this thread and a new ex-C. Just wondering what

you think of Xians who chase others away from faith because they don't

go to church?

 

 Going to church and following Jesus does not need to be lumped into the same pile. The purpose is to be with others who believe the same way for support, uplifting, and praise and worship. Much for the same reasons most are members of this site. To say one must go to churct to be saved needs some lessons on the bible. It would be like saying you cannot be an ex Christian without being on such a site as this.

 

 

 Stranger, I don't deny that you've had some experiences that seem really

crazy to you. I have too. What I would gently suggest is that given

that the Bible cannot possibly be true--that its claims are debunked,

that not a single thing in it can be confirmed via historical finds,The bible is the most reliable historic book there is and so many new things have been found in late to support the historic accounts of the bible. The stories of the bible can be found and supported with many more books outside of the bible. There is no book like the bible. None.

that its mysteries are already discovered via scientific means, its

demands proven just through sheer logic to be irrational, its Savior

completely nonexistent, and its "miracles" just flukes of random chance,

given that the Bible is clearly a moldy book of fairy tales and "just

so" stories, maybe the divinity behind those experiences, if a divinity did them at all, was not who you thought it was.

He didn't actually send you a letter, after all. He didn't confirm his

identity verbally.The bible was written on eye witness accounts. Show me a book more diverse and accurate than the bible. He didn't send an email with an IP header from

heaven. He didn't leave any fingerprints. All you have is a cultural

expectation that if something crazy happens, it must have been

JEEEEEBUS. Or demons. Or Satan himself. What if it was none of those? Or

what if your cultural expectation to pin Jesus on everything and see

any coincidence as the clear work of your Divine Daddy Buddy is simply

wrong and it wasn't a divine happening at all?Everyone decides what to believe. I have lived years apart from Christ and know what my life was. I should of been dead many times over. I believe because He lives inside of me. I believe because He guides my every path. I believe because I sleep in peace, though death creeps upward. I know Satan well. I called Him daddy for too long. His only wish is demise. He is a lover of self and a liar like no other. I bet if you call out to Satan he will answer you as well, but I sure hope you do not. Life is believing everything is chance with no hope, or believing in a world that was created with no chance and with one true hope.

 

My, my, you're quick to potentially damn yourself by giving credit to the wrong person, aren't you?

 

Every

single person here will tell you the same story: we have all had the

exact same feelings in non-Christian contexts as we have in Christian

ones. I've felt that same feeling of bubbling-over spiritually in

contexts where, trust me, there was no fucking way Jesus was anywhere

near me or approving of what I was doing.I agree we can have different highlight or spiritual experiences apart from Christ. Many do. Myself, any past experience that I have ever had fails in comparison. No other experience gave me a hope and eternal peace and helped guide me in my daily life, except Satan who lies until you believe and hopes all do as he says and wants and dies to be with him. I have did many things myself. This is not a temporary feeling high but an eternal hope of love and peace. You have been taught that your

feelings are what you should go by in evaluating a religion's claims,

but that is a cruel lie. Your feelings are easily manipulated and

shaped. Feelings are in no way a trustworthy measure to assess what's

happening in the invisible spirit world. AND THEY ARE NOT FACTS.I agree. we are to go by the mind, heart, and soul. We cannot leave any one of those out. Thus partly why believeing the word of God is factual makes one huge difference. Satan gives feelings. So does sex, drugs, and other pagon worship events. Even some churches play more in feelings than fact. We need to go by everything in us, including facts.

 

Every

single person here will tell you something else, too: that when we

examined our memories of these supposedly divine events in hindsight,

without the blinders of faith, we discovered that a lot of these divine

happenings weren't actually that miraculous or weird. Of the ones left

over, we can see clearly that there wasn't any particular reason to

believe Jesus was behind it beyond that we were simply geared to think

it was Jesus due to our cultural indoctrinations. He never seems to sign

his work, does he? Weird experiences are a piss-poor reason to devote

your life to someone as cruel and evil as Yahweh/Jesus. AND THEY ARE NOT

FACTS EITHER.In my life, I know I would most certainly be dead without Christ. I am a different man than I ever was before. If I go back and say it was all by chance, it makes little sense to me. You know the saying, if it were not for bad luck I would have no luck a all? Welcome to the poster child. Given chance, our experiences often would not envolve what most relate to as out of this world experiences or God or angels talking to them. Chance does not seem to play in that game my friend.

 

A fact would be something like a pillar of fire

from heaven that anybody could see regardless of their level of "faith"

and their doctrinal stance, like God did in the OT to convince people of

his existence. It wouldn't matter if I believed in Yahweh or not. I'd

see the pillar just like you would. Does a burning pillar of fire in the

sky imply Yahweh did it? No, but the pillar itself is a shining beacon

in the night. A fact doesn't change no matter what you believe about it.

Natural selection happens regardless of whether or not you believe that

a sky fairy created the earth out of a song. The beautiful thing about

science is that if we saw a pillar like that, we'd be on it like white

on rice trying to figure out where it came from and what it meant. We

wouldn't just shrug and go "well! Guess it's Yahweh!" -- because what if

we're wrong?In the OT and NT you will find miracles, or facts, that some believed and some did not, but all responded.

 

Stranger, the simple truth is that you're not a

really strong critical thinker. You've been taught by evil men that your

experiences and feelings trump reality, and you've even had your

concept of reality warped to fit into these evil men's religion. You

don't even know what reality IS or how to deal with facts, so I'm

certainly not holding against you that you constantly get your science

wrong, misstate facts, and put words into the mouths of people. You are a

representative of the evangelical movement as a whole. But there is

hope for you. Educate yourself. Reach beyond your comfort zone and start

asking those hard questions. Refuse to settle for the usual

apologetics. Learn logic and educate yourself about the many cognitive

biases and logical fallacies the Christian faith holds so dear. And you

will break free.

 

Good luck with your move. I've lived near the area you're heading to and it's not bad

 

 I do thank you much for your kind words of "hope?" but you see, I lived a life that was far from the church ways of thinking. I was the one the pastor did not want to see when he came to the door (the door knockers) and would never see him again. I was there, right with you, asking all of these very tough questions. Just as Paul was very smart in regards to the law, it was not until he saw Jesus where he started thinking about all that he knew in a different light.

 

 I do appreciate your kindness. Many here believe I have a closed mind, but the fact is, I have always been open to change and I have openly admitted on this very site when the facts were not on my side and too, I have realigned some of my prior thoughts because of this site, both concerning viws or doctrines of Christianity and many of you (including all) who are on this site.

 

It is a blessed thing to be back.

 

 I need to make one thing clear. I believe, apart from the Holy Spirit, I can change no hearts or minds on this site, thus, I will not try doing so, though I will try to answer any questions except of those of which will only lead to negitivity. In saying that, you must realize I am in the same mind set. I have doubted plenty enough times for God to show Himself true to me. I can no longer doubt. For those of you who still want to talk, fantastic and I will be looking forward to it. Though my faith is set on the solid rock I am never beyond learning,

 

God bless

[Akheia]

Yes, you're the bright shiny sparkly snowflake who sees it all correctly. We've never ever heard that before. Ever. How do we know you're the real deal and know that we can safely disregard all the other Christians who are convinced that they're the bright shiny sparkly snowflakes who see their quirky interpretation as being the best and most correct one?

[the stranger]

 

 Yes, you're the bright shiny sparkly snowflake who sees it all

correctly. We've never ever heard that before. Ever. How do we know

you're the real deal and know that we can safely disregard all the other

Christians who are convinced that they're the bright shiny sparkly

snowflakes who see their quirky interpretation as being the best and

most correct one?

 

 I am no bright shiny sparkly snowflake who sees it all correctly. I also think second hand doctrines are generally a second hand issue. I just know who my Maker is and know Who my life remains in. I just know the One who gave me life and who brought me back from death. If I die today, tonight, or tomorrow I am ready and I am at peace. Can you say the same thing. I am at peace with my Maker. I am at peace with Jesus Christ. I really could care less about if you agree with all of my doctrines or not or my way of thinking. What I care about is your future.

[Ravenstar]

"The bible is the most reliable historic book there is and so many new things have been found in late to support the historic accounts of the bible. The stories of the bible can be found and supported with many more books outside of the bible. There is no book like the bible. None."

(emphasis mine)

 

Seriously? bwahahahahaha   ummm, no. You haven't done your homework...  citations please. If you have such evidence you may actually become really, really famous! Us heathens may even believe you if you can present this to us!

 

Biblical scholars throughout history have been looking for this!! The entire world would be shaken to its foundations... please, do tell!

 

Don't hold back now... our very souls are on the line.

[bornagainathiest]

Everyone decides what to believe.

 

No, Stranger! That is not correct. 

The facts decide for us what is true and what is false. 

All we do is choose to accept or deny them.  

 

Though my faith is set on the solid rock I am never beyond learning

 

If you are never beyond learning Stranger, then learn this. 

It is the facts that decide what is true and what is false. 

 

You don't get to decide what the facts are.

You don't get to decide which facts are true.

You either accept them or deny them.

 

Yes!  We are back to square one again. 

After years of going round in circles, after thousands and thousands of words and dozens and dozens of posts you and I are right back where we started.

 

You are still wrong.  You are still in error.  You are still in denial.

 

It's not up to you to pick and choose what the facts are. 

The facts are true or false, no matter what you believe about them.

 

Learn that, if you REALLY are never beyond learning.

 

BAA.

[mymistake]

    I just know who my Maker is and know Who my life remains in. I just know the One who gave me life and who brought me back from death. 

 

No you don't.  You just failed.

 

If I die today, tonight, or tomorrow I am ready and I am at peace. Can you say the same thing.

 

When you and I die the exact same thing will happen to both of us.

 

I am at peace with my Maker. I am at peace with Jesus Christ. I really could care less about if you agree with all of my doctrines or not or my way of thinking. What I care about is your future.

 

In other words you would like for us to join your cult.  There is no reason to believe your god is any different than the thousands of other man made gods.  It is a coincidence that you worship Jesus instead of Mithra.  And if you were born in a different part of the world you would be just as convinced that some other local religion was the right one.  Religion is a function of geography.  If you are born in one place you are Muslim if you are born in another you are Christian.

[SquareOne]

 

 

 I just know who my Maker is and know Who my life remains in. I just know the One who gave me life and who brought me back from death. 

 

How?  Have you seen him?

[♦ ficino ♦]

Dear Stranger, re #2667 (I'm not quoting it because the quote tool is driving me crazy):

 

I recognize a long piece of mine, to which you have the courtesy to reply.  I see from your reply that you have chosen the second alternative in the disjunction I proposed in my strategy #1, i.e. maintain creatures' free will and deny that God is the first cause of all things/effects.  You may possibly wish to deny that all that happens is willed by God, at least in some strong sense of "will." That's OK.  It entails that you believe in a universe in which a large number of things are not under God's control;  they are under the control of creatures, and God's 'will' must adjust to creatures' decisions - even if God foresees those decisions.  You might say that God has the power to do a sort of mopping up job in response to those things that have been done--or that He foresees will be done.

 

I know that many people believe this.  A number of people on here have already commented on how this denial goes against scripture.  I also think, as many have said, that to maintain God foreknows all things/events already lands you in the Problem of Evil.

 

I see how it gives depth to your life that you feel that you "just know" the things you talk about in #2669.  I get that (have been there).  I guess it's obvious that so far, you have not convinced many of us that your beliefs amount to knowledge. For starters, there are contradictions within your belief set.