Why Do You Remain A Christian?

February 18, 2013

If I die today, tonight, or tomorrow I am ready and I am at peace. Can you say the same thing. I am at peace with my Maker. I am at peace with Jesus Christ. I really could care less about if you agree with all of my doctrines or not or my way of thinking. What I care about is your future.

Stranger, I've already come to terms with My mortality. I have no false hope of life after death. I put My efforts into the real world and My resources into things that improve the lot of family, friends and community. I have a last will and testament on file, insurance in place and a positive net worth, and now I concentrate on experiencing the only life I expect to have.

I neither want nor need your mythology, and I really don't give a rodent's rear end how much you "care" in that regard.

February 18, 2013

Yes, you're the bright shiny sparkly snowflake who sees it all
correctly. We've never ever heard that before. Ever. How do we know

you're the real deal and know that we can safely disregard all the other

Christians who are convinced that they're the bright shiny sparkly

snowflakes who see their quirky interpretation as being the best and

most correct one?

I am no bright shiny sparkly snowflake who sees it all correctly. I also think second hand doctrines are generally a second hand issue. I just know who my Maker is and know Who my life remains in. I just know the One who gave me life and who brought me back from death. If I die today, tonight, or tomorrow I am ready and I am at peace. Can you say the same thing. I am at peace with my Maker. I am at peace with Jesus Christ. I really could care less about if you agree with all of my doctrines or not or my way of thinking. What I care about is your future.

1. You could care less if we agree with your doctrines and way of thinking, ( i.e. believing Jesus is our personal savior.)

2. You care about our future, (i.e. getting into heaven, avoiding hell which would require us to believe Jesus is our personal savior.)

3. Statements 1 and 2 conflict.

February 19, 2013

Everyone decides what to believe.

Actually church going bible thumping Christians tend to indoctrinate their children from birth through adulthood, crushing non-Christian ideas and beliefs contrary to their narrow religious view. Some manage to break out and think for themselves. Others remain mired in the fear of Christianity their whole lives. It's sad, really, especially in the USA where there is something called freedom of religion.... yet this freedom of religion is largely ignored by fanatical religious assholes who attempt to make everyone believe what they believe.

February 19, 2013

1. You could care less if we agree with your doctrines and way of thinking, ( i.e. believing Jesus is our personal savior.)

2. You care about our future, (i.e. getting into heaven, avoiding

hell which would require us to believe Jesus is our personal savior.)

3. Statements 1 and 2 conflict.

Not at all. If I were to say I was concerned or that it bothered me that you do not believe in Jesus Christ, I would be lying. It is no different from you saying to me you really are not effected or care about what I think concerning your non belief in God. Though at the same time, at least I would asume, just as if I could save your life from a high speed bus coming at you by pushing you out of the way I believe you would do the same for me. In other words, we can disagree on religion. WE can live our lives without other peoples point of view effecting ours, but at the same time hopefully love one another as to the extent we would push each other out of harms way. You see friend, I believe perhaps, we might be more alike on this than you care to admit, thus if it was a counterdiction, it would be found on both sides.

Stranger, I've already come to terms with My mortality. I have no

false hope of life after death. I put My efforts into the real world

and My resources into things that improve the lot of family, friends and

community. I have a last will and testament on file, insurance in

place and a positive net worth, and now I concentrate on experiencing

the only life I expect to have.

I neither want nor need your mythology, and I really don't give a rodent's rear end how much you "care" in that regard.

I am glad you have taken all action to help and protect your family up on your own death. Not many seem to do this or are able to do this. Friends and family sure are so important. I would ask, though. Do you see a purpose for this life? I mean, if we are just born to die and to be no more, is there any purpose at all?

Dear Stranger, re #2667 (I'm not quoting it because the quote tool is driving me crazy):

I recognize a long piece of mine, to which you have the courtesy to

reply. I see from your reply that you have chosen the second

alternative in the disjunction I proposed in my strategy #1, i.e.

maintain creatures' free will and deny that God is the first cause of

all things/effects. You may possibly wish to deny that all that happens

is willed by God, at least in some strong sense of "will." That's OK.

It entails that you believe in a universe in which a large number of

things are not under God's control; they are under the control of

creatures, and God's 'will' must adjust to creatures' decisions - even

if God foresees those decisions. You might say that God has the power

to do a sort of mopping up job in response to those things that have

been done--or that He foresees will be done.

I know that many people believe this. A number of people on here

have already commented on how this denial goes against scripture. I

also think, as many have said, that to maintain God foreknows all

things/events already lands you in the Problem of Evil.

I see how it gives depth to your life that you feel that you "just

know" the things you talk about in #2669. I get that (have been

there). I guess it's obvious that so far, you have not convinced many

of us that your beliefs amount to knowledge. For starters, there are

contradictions within your belief set.

You certainly do have away of putting things down my friend. If God, knowing, but allowing, every decision that was is and will be made, how does that make God adjust accordingly? Let me give you an example. Let us say that God knew Cain would mudure Abel. Now He could of stopped it if He chose to, right? But it was all part of His plan. As you know, Christ was predestined to be crucified before the creation of the world. Does this seem like an adjusting to choices?

You could say, if God knew in advance, from the beginning to the end, and allowed it to be so, then God is at fault. Not so. Again, everything is known in advance, including all decisions, thus all decisions all ready being part of Gods plan. But again, just because God knows these decisions before hand does not make Him accountable.

God, knowing in advance, what we would do with free will, still gave us free will, as to be a just God. He will not have anyone worship Him here that does not choose to do so. All decisions are already part of His plan but He holds no responsibility of decisions made.

Just because God knew evil would be had, as evil is really in the same pocket as sin, and thus bringing death, it still does not hold God accountable for our actions. Foreknowledge does not require responsibility.

Now some may say, if we knew one was to be murdured and we could stop it and we did not, than we could be held liable under God. Now I believe this to be true. However, we do not give life. We are not allowed to take life. God is God. He is the Maker and King. Do we know His ways? God has reasons for all He allows that we just cannot see. One day it will be revealed to us. As a baby grows we try to get them off the tit, then off the bottle, then solid foods all while trying to get him and help him to walk. Durring this process he will cry, fuss, fall, feel abandoned, and may even hate you for a while as he thinks you are being cruel to him by withholding help and food. In realality, you are letting him suffer, letting him go without to train and to teach him to be a bigger better boy. God often allows us to suffer to hopefully bring us to Himself. If we see no need for God then why would we ever call out to Him to save us. People worldwide have always looked deeper and higher than themselves. Eternity is built in us.

If you can, I would like to see where my way of thinking is not biblical. You truly do got me at a loss with this one friend. Thanks for reading.

I

just know who my Maker is and know Who my life remains in. I just know

the One who gave me life and who brought me back from death.

How? Have you seen him?

He lives inside of me. I see Him, I talk with Him, I joke with Him, and I follow Him everyday of my life. He is my life. He is my hope and my future.

In other words you would like for us to join your cult. There is no
reason to believe your god is any different than the thousands of other

man made gods. It is a coincidence that you worship Jesus instead of

Mithra. And if you were born in a different part of the world you would

be just as convinced that some other local religion was the right one.

Religion is a function of geography. If you are born in one place you

are Muslim if you are born in another you are Christian.

You are right in one thing. I wish all to be saved. You see, out of all Gods and religions, Jesus is the only one known to have died for our sins and rose again in three days. Christianity, that a transformed life brings actions, the basics are grace and forgiveness. Christians are world wide. All other religions are based on works and dead Gods or Gods who only wish to bring destruction and no love and peace can usually be found. Jesus is the only God Who is alive from the grave and gives all who ask His Holy Spirit do dwell inside of us.

BBA, do me a favor if you would. type out just ten things, just out of the blue, the first things that come to your head, that are "facts" and let us see where the road takes us. No cheating. LOL Just quick responses, than thinking.

"The bible is the most reliable historic book there is and so many new things have been found in late to support the historic accounts of the bible. The stories of the bible can be found and supported with many more books outside of the bible. There is no book like the bible. None."

(emphasis mine)

Seriously? bwahahahahaha ummm, no. You haven't done your homework... citations please.

If you have such evidence you may actually become really, really

famous! Us heathens may even believe you if you can present this to us!

Biblical scholars throughout history have been looking for this!! The

entire world would be shaken to its foundations... please, do tell!

Don't hold back now... our very souls are on the line.

Actually, I have done more homework on this subject than I ever have before. The bible is older, has many more authors, and spans thousands of years, and can be verified as true in almost every regard, more so than any other book, more so with those dating back even a fraction of the bible, and we have more copies of the bible than any other historic book. I mean, these words were written down well before paper. Can you show me even one book that comes close to the diversity, age, and factual points found true than what the bible has to say. I think not. There is none. You take for truth books a fraction of the bibles age written by one author with few copies yet throw the bible as trash. Honestly, have you done your homework? There is none other that comes close to comparing.

Thank you all for reading. I hope you all have a good Tuesday.

February 19, 2013

Actually church going bible thumping Christians tend to indoctrinate

their children from birth through adulthood, crushing non-Christian

ideas and beliefs contrary to their narrow religious view. Some manage

to break out and think for themselves. Others remain mired in the fear

of Christianity their whole lives. It's sad, really, especially in the

USA where there is something called freedom of religion.... yet this

freedom of religion is largely ignored by fanatical religious assholes

who attempt to make everyone believe what they believe.

How would you respond to those Christians that have never heard the gospel before or those that converted from muslim after 30 plus years or those never hearing about Jesus until late in life. It makes no sense for these people, unless Jesus really does live. Did you know in the US Congress use to pray to God every morning, prayer and bible teaching were the bases of public schools, and the the original states had God in every aspect of their lives. My, how things have changed. Now fiction is taught while the truth is denied. Talk with you later

February 19, 2013

He lives inside of me. I see Him, I talk with Him, I joke with Him, and I follow Him everyday of my life. He is my life. He is my hope and my future.

How is this different from Schizophrenia?

February 19, 2013

BBA, do me a favor if you would. type out just ten things, just out of the blue, the first things that come to your head, that are "facts" and let us see where the road takes us. No cheating. LOL Just quick responses, than thinking.

No problem!

1. I'm wearing glasses.

2. My cat is called Beauty.

3. She drinks mineral water.

4. I ate chicken yesterday.

5. The capital of China is Beijing.

6. I'm painfully slow at texting.

7. I like vanilla.

8. My garden needs some work.

9. Abraham Lincoln is dead.

10. You live near the Great Lakes.

Those do?

Fyi, Stranger, here are some additional facts about those ten facts I listed.

1. It doesn't matter what you believe about them - they remain facts, not beliefs.

2. It doesn't matter what you believe about them - your beliefs change nothing about them.

3. It doesn't matter what you believe about them - all you can do is accept or deny them.

4. It doesn't matter what I believe about them, either - all I can do is accept or deny them.

5. Beijing has been the capital of China since 1949 and nothing you or I believe can change that fact.

6. The truth of any fact is independent of anyone's belief or doubt in it. This explains why people can be killed by things don't know about (i.e., things they haven't had a chance to believe in or not.)

7. The truth of any fact remains the truth, regardless of anyone's belief. That's why a falling tree makes a noise, even if nobody hears it. Reality doesn't need us to believe in it, for it to be real.

8. The truth of any fact can't be altered by our decision to disbelieve it. Disbelief changes nothing, except our minds. Which is why we can only accept or deny the facts and never change them from what they are.

9. Abraham Lincoln's death is a recorded historical fact. All you can do is to accept or deny that. Nothing you believe or disbelieve changes anything, Stranger - except inside your head.

10. If I choose to believe that you live on Mars, does my belief change the truth of the fact that you don't?

BAA

p.s.

It's BAA, not BBA. ok?

February 19, 2013

You are right in one thing. I wish all to be saved. You see, out of all Gods and religions, Jesus is the only one known to have died for our sins and rose again in three days. Christianity, that a transformed life brings actions, the basics are grace and forgiveness. Christians are world wide. All other religions are based on works and dead Gods or Gods who only wish to bring destruction and no love and peace can usually be found. Jesus is the only God Who is alive from the grave and gives all who ask His Holy Spirit do dwell inside of us.

I was right about all of it. Many god myths have a god who died and three days later rose again. Jesus was just a plagiarism of earlier religions. And I've been the life transformed with Jesus dwelling inside me Christen filled with the Holy Spirit and all that. I lived it for 35 years. It is self-delusion and willful ignorance. Christianity brings the opposite of forgiveness because Christianity must invent the sin to make people feel guilty. Your God is no more real than any other man-made God. And in the original Old Testament sources Judaism was pagan and polytheistic. All those names for God were not different names for the same God. They were different names for the different gods worshiped by the Jewish people. Yahweh had a wife goddess. The "sons of God" mentioned in Job and Psalm mean the 70 gods who were the children of the High God. That is right - Yahweh and "the accuser" were originally brothers. That is why Yahweh's brother Jehovah commanded that no other gods be worshiped before him. And it's why in Genesis 2 the Gods and Goddesses were talking among themselves and decided to make humans in their own images. Eve was in the image of all the goddesses.

Your religion is a pack of lies.

How would you respond to those Christians that have never heard the gospel before or those that converted from muslim after 30 plus years or those never hearing about Jesus until late in life. It makes no sense for these people, unless Jesus really does live.

Jesus doesn't really live. However Christianity is a very appealing religion especially to people who were raised to be superstitious. Christianity has a long history of destroying pagan cultures all over the world. That doesn't mean Christianity is true. It just means that when the Romans invented Christianity they gave it an excellent marketing strategy. The Romans were brilliant and they knew a few things about empire building.

Did you know in the US Congress use to pray to God every morning, prayer and bible teaching were the bases of public schools, and the the original states had God in every aspect of their lives. My, how things have changed. Now fiction is taught while the truth is denied.

Fiction is taught while the truth is denied by pastors. Teaching fiction while denying truth is what your religion does. Bible teachings are fiction. When Bible teachings were the bases of public schools we were teaching ignorance. However the original states were based on deism. The founding fathers mostly rejected theism for deism. Having God in every aspect of life was the Dark Ages when armies would commit genocide for God and witches and unbelievers would be burned to death.

Your religion is still a pack of lies.

February 19, 2013

Nothing pisses me off more than liars. I am calling your bluff. You know NOTHING about ancient literature except what you have been fed by apologists. You insult every scholar, archaeologist and historian who has ever worked in the fields of ancient history, linguistics, even genetics. Your fallacious and ignorant ideas about your precious book has little support in the real world.

"Actually, I have done more homework on this subject than I ever have before."

Really?.. I don't believe you because you show a glaring lack of knowledge in your baseless assertions of ancient literature. So no, you haven't. You lie.

"The bible is older,"

Than what? And NO, IT'S NOT. There are other older texts out there... WAY older - in the original (cuneiform tablets by the thousands - many not even deciphered yet, Egyptian hieroglyphics carved in stone and written on papyri), quite a few actually.

All these are older than the Torah: Some by thousands of years.

Early Bronze Age:

2600 BCE Sumerian texts from Abu Salabikh, including the Instructions of Shuruppak and the Kesh temple hymn

2600 BCE Akkadian Legend of Etana

2400 BCE Egyptian Pyramid Texts, including the Cannibal Hymn

2400 BCE Sumerian Code of Urukagina

2400 BCE Egyptian Palermo stone

2350 BCE Egyptian The Maxims of Ptahhotep

2270 BCE Sumerian Enheduanna's Hymns

2250-2000 BCE Sumerian Earliest stories in the Epic of Gilgamesh

2100 BCE Sumerian Curse of Agade

2100 BCE Sumerian Debate between Bird and Fish

2050 BCE Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu

2000 BCE Egyptian Coffin Texts

2000 BCE Sumerian Lament for Ur

2000 BCE Sumerian Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta

1950 Akkadian Laws of Eshnunna

Middle Bronze Age:

1950 BCE Akkadian Laws of Eshnunna

1900 BCE Sumerian Code of Lipit-Ishtar

1900 BCE Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh

1850 BCE Akkadian Kultepe texts

1800 BCE Egyptian Story of Sinuhe (in Hieratic)

*1800 BCE Sumerian Eridu Genesis

*1800 BCE Akkadian Enûma Eliš (*these two are where the hebrews got their creation myth from - which goes back to the original story from 2200 BCE Sumerian stories)

1800 BCE Akkadian Atra-Hasis epic

1780 BCE Akkadian Code of Hammurabi stele

1780 BCE Akkadian Mari letters, including the Epic of Zimri-Lim

1750 BCE Hittite Anitta text

1700 BCE Egyptian Westcar Papyrus

1650 BCE Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus

Late Bronze Age:

1700-1100 BCE Vedic Sanskrit: approximate date of the composition of the Rigveda. (Oh looky - the Hindus show up)

1600 BCE Hittite Code of the Nesilim

1500 BCE Akkadian Poor Man of Nippur

1550 BCE Egyptian Book of the Dead

1500 BCE Akkadian Dynasty of Dunnum

Gee whiz, where are the Hebrews in all this history?

1400 BCE Akkadian Marriage of Nergal and Ereshkigal

1400 BCE Akkadian Autobiography of Kurigalzu

1400 BCE Akkadian Amarna letters

1330 BCE Egyptian Great Hymn to the Aten

1240 BCE Egyptian Papyrus of Ani, Book of the Dead

1200 BCE Akkadian Tukulti-Ninurta Epic

Iron Age:

1200-1100 BC approximate date of books RV 1 and RV 10 in the Rigveda (The Hindus again)

1200-800 BC approximate date of the Vedic Sanskrit Yajurveda, Atharvaveda

1050 BC Egyptian Story of Wenamun

1050 BC Akkadian Sakikkū (SA.GIG) “Diagnostic Omens” by Esagil-kin-apli

1050 BC The Babylonian Theodicy of Šaggil-kīnam-ubbib.

1000-600 BC Chinese Classic of Poetry (Shījīng), Classic of Documents (Shūjīng) (authentic portions), Classic of Changes (I Ching)

Where are the Hebrews again?

The oldest surviving Hebrew Bible manuscripts date to about the 2nd century BCE...

"has many more authors"...

So.. it's a collection of books. what's your point? It's also been revised many many times... Karen Armstrong has a good book on this, "The History of the Bible". and they still couldn't get it right - it's rife with contradictions.

"and spans thousands of years,"

the Rig Vedas also span thousands of years, actually more than the bible, so what?

"and can be verified as true in almost every regard,"

No it can't... and it hasn't. Even apologists would disagree with you here. True as in the Exodus? Never happened.. not one iota of archaeological or historical evidence exists to support that claim.. not one.

"more so than any other book, more so with those dating back even a fraction of the bible, and we have more copies of the bible than any other historic book."

I've dealt with the dating above... and of course we have more copies. The Catholic Church has made a living off of copying biblical texts—had entire monasteries devoted to it. Most copies were made after 200AD. The largest proportion probably after 800AD, your point?

I mean, these words were written down well before paper.

You are seriously an historical ignoramus. Do you even know who invented paper? Do you have any conception of the historical timeline of.. anything? (based in reality?)

"Paper, and the pulp papermaking process, was said to be developed in China during the early 2nd century AD by the Han court eunuch Cai Lun, although the earliest archaeological fragments of paper derive from the 2nd century BC in China"

"For a long time the Chinese closely guarded the secret of paper manufacture and tried to eliminate other Oriental centers of production to ensure a monopoly. However in 751 A.D. the T'ang army was defeated by the Ottoman Turks at a mighty battle at the Talas River. Some Chinese soldiers and paper makers were captured and brought to Samarkand. The Arabs learned the paper making from
the Chinese prisoners and built the first paper industry in Baghdad in 793 A.D. They, too, kept it a secret, and Europeans did not learn how to make paper until several centuries later. The Egyptians learned the paper making from the Arabs during the early 10th century. Around 1100 A.D. paper arrived in Northern Africa and by 1150 A.D. it arrived to Spain as a result of the crusades and established the first paper industry in Europe."

source - http://www.silk-road.com/artl/papermaking.shtml

The Dead Sea Scrolls were written on parchment.(inner lining of goatskin) Around 150 — 200BC. These are the oldest existing documents we have of the Hebrew texts.

Can you show me even one book that comes close to the diversity, age, and factual points found true than what the bible has to say. I think not. There is none.

What factual points found true? Talking donkeys? Vague assertions with no support. The rest is dealt with above. You lie.

You take for truth books a fraction of the bibles age written by one author with few copies yet throw the bible as trash. Honestly, have you done your homework? There is none other that comes
close to comparing."

What 'books' are you referring to that we take as truth?

I don't know one person here that swallows anything without investigation... no matter who wrote what.

You are making a fool of yourself with your incredible lack of knowledge of ancient history and literature.. and you lie. Yes, I have done my homework... I'm an art historian. hmmm... there is a decided lack of Hebrew art, including literature, in the ancient middle-east. However... there is TONS of it from Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc... There are some people, just on this website alone, that could mop the floor with your 'knowledge' with their eyes closed and one hand behind their backs.. because we cared enough to seek the truth no matter how uncomfortable it was, and we did our friggin' homework... my 14 year old daughter knows more about history than you do.

You are a liar.

February 19, 2013

Ravenstar, I regret that I have but only one rep to give you for kicking his ass. That was a masterpiece!

February 19, 2013

Stranger, just as your ignorance of history pisses off Ravenstar, this question of yours profoundly annoys Me:

Do you see a purpose for this life? I mean, if we are just born to die and to be no more, is there any purpose at all?

I might ask in response, "Do you see a purpose for eternal life? I mean, if we are just born to die and sit around in Heaven for eternity, is there any purpose at all?"

Or, even more to the point, "Do you, god of The Stranger, see a purpose for Your life? I mean, if you just sit around for eternity, creating and destroying stuff, is there any purpose at all?"

Purpose is what we make of it, no more and no less, and anything more than that is IMO just metaphysical masturbation and seeing a problem where none actually exists. Your hypothetical god simply cannot assign its idea of "meaning" to My life without hijacking and subverting My free will and My own sense of meaning and purpose.

Stranger, may you see -- As I did some 44 years ago -- the utter meaninglessness of eternal life. And from that moment to the end of your days on Earth, may you be unable to escape that vision.

February 19, 2013

1. You could care less if we agree with your doctrines and way of thinking, ( i.e. believing Jesus is our personal savior.)

2. You care about our future, (i.e. getting into heaven, avoiding

hell which would require us to believe Jesus is our personal savior.)

3. Statements 1 and 2 conflict.

Not at all. If I were to say I was concerned or that it bothered me that you do not believe in Jesus Christ, I would be lying. It is no different from you saying to me you really are not effected or care about what I think concerning your non belief in God. Though at the same time, at least I would asume, just as if I could save your life from a high speed bus coming at you by pushing you out of the way I believe you would do the same for me. In other words, we can disagree on religion. WE can live our lives without other peoples point of view effecting ours, but at the same time hopefully love one another as to the extent we would push each other out of harms way. You see friend, I believe perhaps, we might be more alike on this than you care to admit, thus if it was a counterdiction, it would be found on both sides.

I might push you clear of a real bus provided I would not put myself in danger doing so.

I would not need to push you clear of an imaginary bus, but I might call a mental health technician for you.

February 20, 2013

Point I was disputing: Everyone decides what to believe.

Actually church going bible thumping Christians tend to indoctrinate
their children from birth through adulthood, crushing non-Christian
ideas and beliefs contrary to their narrow religious view. Some manage
to break out and think for themselves. Others remain mired in the fear
of Christianity their whole lives. It's sad, really, especially in the
USA where there is something called freedom of religion.... yet this
freedom of religion is largely ignored by fanatical religious assholes
who attempt to make everyone believe what they believe.

How would you respond to those Christians that have never heard the gospel before or those that converted from muslim after 30 plus years or those never hearing about Jesus until late in life. It makes no sense for these people, unless Jesus really does live. Did you know in the US Congress use to pray to God every morning, prayer and bible teaching were the bases of public schools, and the the original states had God in every aspect of their lives. My, how things have changed. Now fiction is taught while the truth is denied. Talk with you later

People believe what they allow themselves to believe. Why do devout Christians (like on this forum) after 30 plus years of knowing Jesus decide to convert to atheism? Or convert to Islam? Or convert to Scientology? People change their beliefs. Maybe it was the will of Dawkins, or Allah, or Xenu. Probably not though. It was their own decision.

Congress used to pray .... probably why we've been involved in the Spanish American War, War of 1812, Civil War, WW1, WW2, Korean Conflict, Vietnam War, Gulf Wars, Afghan War .... biblegod is very bloodthirsty. :-)

February 20, 2013

" I am glad you have taken all action to help and protect your family up on your own death. Not many seem to do this or are able to do this. Friends and family sure are so important. I would ask, though. Do you see a purpose for this life? I mean, if we are just born to die and to be no more, is there any purpose at all?"

My purpose is to do whatever I please. Your purpose is to be a robot for Christ. I like my purpose better.

February 20, 2013

>>>

Dear Stranger, re #2667 (I'm not quoting it because the quote tool is driving me crazy):

I recognize a long piece of mine, to which you have the courtesy to

reply. I see from your reply that you have chosen the second

alternative in the disjunction I proposed in my strategy #1, i.e.

maintain creatures' free will and deny that God is the first cause of

all things/effects. You may possibly wish to deny that all that happens

is willed by God, at least in some strong sense of "will." That's OK.

It entails that you believe in a universe in which a large number of

things are not under God's control; they are under the control of

creatures, and God's 'will' must adjust to creatures' decisions - even

if God foresees those decisions. You might say that God has the power

to do a sort of mopping up job in response to those things that have

been done--or that He foresees will be done.

I know that many people believe this. A number of people on here

have already commented on how this denial goes against scripture. I

also think, as many have said, that to maintain God foreknows all

things/events already lands you in the Problem of Evil.

I see how it gives depth to your life that you feel that you "just

know" the things you talk about in #2669. I get that (have been

there). I guess it's obvious that so far, you have not convinced many

of us that your beliefs amount to knowledge. For starters, there are

contradictions within your belief set.

You certainly do have away of putting things down my friend. If God, knowing, but allowing, every decision that was is and will be made, how does that make God adjust accordingly? Let me give you an example. Let us say that God knew Cain would mudure Abel. Now He could of stopped it if He chose to, right? But it was all part of His plan. As you know, Christ was predestined to be crucified before the creation of the world. Does this seem like an adjusting to choices?

You could say, if God knew in advance, from the beginning to the end, and allowed it to be so, then God is at fault. Not so. Again, everything is known in advance, including all decisions, thus all decisions all ready being part of Gods plan. But again, just because God knows these decisions before hand does not make Him accountable.

God, knowing in advance, what we would do with free will, still gave us free will, as to be a just God. He will not have anyone worship Him here that does not choose to do so. All decisions are already part of His plan but He holds no responsibility of decisions made.

Just because God knew evil would be had, as evil is really in the same pocket as sin, and thus bringing death, it still does not hold God accountable for our actions. Foreknowledge does not require responsibility.

Now some may say, if we knew one was to be murdured and we could stop it and we did not, than we could be held liable under God. Now I believe this to be true. However, we do not give life. We are not allowed to take life. God is God. He is the Maker and King. Do we know His ways? God has reasons for all He allows that we just cannot see. One day it will be revealed to us. As a baby grows we try to get them off the tit, then off the bottle, then solid foods all while trying to get him and help him to walk. Durring this process he will cry, fuss, fall, feel abandoned, and may even hate you for a while as he thinks you are being cruel to him by withholding help and food. In realality, you are letting him suffer, letting him go without to train and to teach him to be a bigger better boy. God often allows us to suffer to hopefully bring us to Himself. If we see no need for God then why would we ever call out to Him to save us. People worldwide have always looked deeper and higher than themselves. Eternity is built in us.

If you can, I would like to see where my way of thinking is not biblical. You truly do got me at a loss with this one friend. Thanks for reading.

Stranger --

God from all eternity ordained/decided/decreed whatever comes to pass: Ephesians 1:11 says that the elect have been predestined according to the purpose of the one who works all things according to the counsel of his will. Romans 9:15 and 18 say that God has mercy on whom he will have mercy and hardens whom he will harden. There are many other verses.

The reason why God foreknows everything is that He knows all things in their causes. From eternity God is the first cause - in particular, his will is the first cause. He wills what he will create and then sets the whole thing in motion. His causative activity sets in motion other subordinate causes, so that he determines the entire causal network of all events from the beginning of time. You really can't deny that this is the classical Christian picture of God as derived from scripture. From another point of view, God is the first cause as "final cause," i.e. to fulfill his purpose is why every created thing exists and every event occurs.

Starting from that, I suggest you go back to what you wrote and:

1. get rid of your term "God's plan." "Plan" is vague the way you are using it. Ordinary Clay, bless his heart, would say you're equivocating on "plan." Find instead some word with scriptural and theological backing. The vagueness of "plan" contributes to the confusion in your first paragraph, where you seem to want to deny that God is the ultimate or first cause of your example, Cain's murder of Abel, and on the other hand, speak as though God is the ultimate or first cause of that murder after all, since you say it was part of his plan. The plan of an omnipotent creator cannot fail to come to effect precisely because that creator is omnipotent. To say X is part of God's plan means, in ordinary uses of language, that God ordained or decreed that thing - and thus, is its author after all.

You do the same thing in your second paragraph.

2. Do not rely on mere assertion. In your second paragraph, for example, you assert without argument that the fact that God knows all decisions beforehand does not make him accountable. I think you try to argue for your assertion with your example about someone who can stop a murder but not does stop it. Your argument in fact begins to lay the foundation for a strong case that god is in fact accountable. But you veer away and take recourse in asserting that God's ways are not our ways, etc. That is not an argument. It is instead a strategy for ending rational discussion.

3. What I said about your earlier post's implication that God "adjusts" to creatures' free decisions may not be what you want to hold, to the extent that your view so far expressed is coherent (which is really is not - sorry.) god's "adjustment" is a feature, if not a term, of the theory that Wm. Lane Craig maintains, i.e. before God creates the world, God knows what creatures will freely decide in all possible situations (all possible worlds), and then god chooses to create just the world that will produce the set of creaturely actions that he wants. On this theory (Molinism), the adjustment comes in this transition between God's middle knowledge - by which he knows all possibilities - and his free knowledge, by which he creates one world, one set of possibilities, in which creatures will wind up doing just the things he wants them to do. God, in other words, adjusts his creative act to what he supposedly foresees are creatures' possible decisions, so that God picks one set of total decisions out of all possible sets and actualizes that. so I was guessing that you would agree with Craig. In fact it seems you may want to be a Calvinist if you push seriously your claim that God plans for creatures to perform evil actions. But as I said, this is not clear.

I'm not urging you to become a Calvinist! Rather, to work on exposing the contradictions within your own belief set and to subject those beliefs, once clarified, to your best reflection and intuition about life.

February 20, 2013

Did our Christian sneak off to lick his wounds? But our eternal souls hang in the balance!

February 20, 2013

I am no bright shiny sparkly snowflake who sees it all correctly. I also think second hand doctrines are generally a second hand issue. I just know who my Maker is and know Who my life remains in. I just know the One who gave me life and who brought me back from death. If I die today, tonight, or tomorrow I am ready and I am at peace. Can you say the same thing. I am at peace with my Maker. I am at peace with Jesus Christ. I really could care less about if you agree with all of my doctrines or not or my way of thinking. What I care about is your future.

BULLSHIT.

Stop with the concern trolling. We know what it is, and we aren't fooled by your preening, self-serving assurances of concern. You don't care about my "future" because you don't even really know for 100% sure what YOUR future is. You just want me to give your delusions validation by buying into them like you have. And I won't. If you really cared for people's "futures," you wouldn't be sitting on your ass on a computer typing messages to heathens. And you'd genuinely listen to what those people have to say. You want more drone robot slaves for your cruel, crazy god, not people to have good futures.

I am more at peace with my life and my one-day death than I ever was as a Christian. I worried constantly about being "good enough," worried about every single little sin I might have forgotten to confess and repent of, worried every time I tried to call a friend and couldn't get through--ZOMG RAPTURE! LEFT BEHIND! AAAAUGH!!! If you try to tell me you don't worry about Hell, then I will call you a stone-cold liar to your face, because that is the threat that animates every single proselytizing Christian's every movement. Leaving behind that insane ideology meant I could come to peace with just not knowing. And not knowing is such a huge relief.

So no, I have no idea what comes next. But I do know you don't know either, any more than I did when I was busy lying for Jesus like you are now. Anything you say about the afterlife is mere bluster and wishful thinking. Whatever comes next, if it's anything at all, it's going to be something every human on the planet's experienced--the most universal experience there is, because not all of us are born, but all of us die. I'm okay with it. I have a medical problem that could well mean I'll die without warning one day. I've had to make peace with it, and I don't think I could have if I'd been laboring under the false hope of Christianity. If anything comes next, then I trust that it's going to take into account how I lived and contributed, not what religion I mouthed allegiance to out of the thousands of totally different religions that have dotted our beautiful planet since humanity gained sentience.

But not you. Oh no, you're so terrified of death you've had to delude yourself into an entire religion to get away from the fear of it. You're so un-special that you have to imagine yourself the center of a god's attention to pump yourself up. You've done so little to advance anything that you have to rest in this false hope, because without it you'd have no hope at all. I find that unspeakably sad, but not so sad that I'll validate your delusion by jumping into its pit with you.

PS Ravenstar is right: you are either freakishly bad at comprehending history or a fucking liar. It must suck to be among people who actually do know their shit--those lies might fly with the local Christians, but out here in the big bad internet, we fact-check.

PPS: BAA is also right: you are either ridiculously stupid or dangerously indoctrinated if you genuinely think that your beliefs impact or dictate reality. Next time a cop is positive you committed a crime, I expect you to bow to his beliefs rather than your knowledge that you're innocent.

February 21, 2013

Stranger --

God from all eternity ordained/decided/decreed whatever comes to

pass: Ephesians 1:11 says that the elect have been predestined

according to the purpose of the one who works all things according to

the counsel of his will. Romans 9:15 and 18 say that God has mercy on

whom he will have mercy and hardens whom he will harden. There are many

other verses.

Unless requested I will leave the scripture out as you already know scripture very well. You know the word states Gods desire is that all come to Him. This can be found throughout. You also know the bible makes it very clear many times over that the choice to serve God is our choice and that the responsibility falls on our own head. That being said yes, God predestines, knowing who will follow Him and who will not from the very beginning. Also should be noted. The word hardened in Romans is interesting as all other times it is used it implies choice. In Exodus the word used for God hardening Pharaohs heart had the meaning of strengthen or, as I would say, the ability to choose wrong over right. Paul also mentions after this verse about God enduring with much patience of those destined to wrath, again implying personel choice. The word prepare here means also complete and is used in regards to finishing or to make ready, thus also indication not something done from the start but something allowed for the person to complete his own destruction. We also must remember as the bible states that God take no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He delights in no one spending eternity without Himself and I know scripture is full of such facts.

You picture will is God gives no choice instead of knowing in advance. You place Him as cause but this would be against scripture in regards to personel choice. He causes no one their downfall, though allowes all to choose life or death.

The reason why God foreknows everything is that He knows all things

in their causes. From eternity God is the first cause - in particular,

his will is the first cause. He wills what he will create and then sets

the whole thing in motion. His causative activity sets in motion other

subordinate causes, so that he determines the entire causal network of

all events from the beginning of time. You really can't deny that this

is the classical Christian picture of God as derived from scripture.

From another point of view, God is the first cause as "final cause,"

i.e. to fulfill his purpose is why every created thing exists and every

event occurs.

Yes and no. Will His will or plan be done? Certainly. Does that mean He wills people to hell? If His desire is for all to come to Himself than He wills or, nor wants anyone to be in hell. His plan allows personell choice even if the causes and effects are know. Let us say a boss needed a job done. He had someone start the job, and while doing so training another for the job. Now the boss knew in advance the worker was a skrewball so to speak. Thus the boss knew this job was not going to be done right. Who was at fault for the job not being done right? Could of not the worker asked the boss for clear direction or not wanted to just finish the job to slack off therefore making sure he knew what he was doing and done it correctly? What if through this workers actions, in which the worker was at fault, the boss had intentions of showing the trainee what not to do and afterwards had a good worker train the trainee the proper way thus through experience the tranee knew better than to work in the same manner as the first worker. Do you kind of see where I am going. God does know all things and sets the people and nations in their place so we as a people will grope and reach out for God. What if in Gods every plan it details His power and mercy and love, in order to show us to Himself?

Starting from that, I suggest you go back to what you wrote and:

1. get rid of your term "God's plan." "Plan" is vague the way you are

using it. Ordinary Clay, bless his heart, would say you're

equivocating on "plan." Find instead some word with scriptural and

theological backing. The vagueness of "plan" contributes to the

confusion in your first paragraph, where you seem to want to deny

that God is the ultimate or first cause of your example, Cain's murder

of Abel, and on the other hand, speak as though God is the ultimate or

first cause of that murder after all, since you say it was part of his

plan. The plan of an omnipotent creator cannot fail to come to effect

precisely because that creator is omnipotent. To say X is part of God's

plan means, in ordinary uses of language, that God ordained or decreed

that thing - and thus, is its author after all.

So it was not Cain's fault? Did God make Cain mudure Abel? Yes, it was in the plan of God, thus the story above, but this is different from what He would want. Your thinking is what God wants God gets, what He desires, He has or will have. However, again, knowing His desire is for all to be with Him we know He does not often get what He desires nor can He if He was to allow free will at play. Gods plan allows our free will. Gods plan allows His great mercy on the cross. Gods plan allows death, rape, hurt and pain, though it was not how God created us. Thus Gods plan and Gods will or better put, Gods desire is far from always seen, thus our prayer, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven, implying right now, this is not the case. Part of His plan is free will and us to learn from our mistakes or serve our due penalty at the end of this life. Gods plan needs not be Gods desire.

You do the same thing in your second paragraph.

2. Do not rely on mere assertion. In your second paragraph, for

example, you assert without argument that the fact that God knows all

decisions beforehand does not make him accountable. I think you try to

argue for your assertion with your example about someone who can stop a

murder but not does stop it. Your argument in fact begins to lay the

foundation for a strong case that god is in fact accountable. But you

veer away and take recourse in asserting that God's ways are not our

ways, etc. That is not an argument. It is instead a strategy for

ending rational discussion.

There is a problem trying to compare ourselves with God. There is so much we do not know. Let me put it this way. If, since death, which God allowed through Adam, all here on earth will die, and since the beginning He allowed free will should God stop all murdure? First, it would take away our hope of heaven and being with Him. Secondly, it would mean He should put an end to death totaly and for that matter all things we consider bad. This is a problem. If all things not holy is sin, and to give life and not allow death, knowing that sin brought death and separated us from God, we have a lose lose case. First, God over rides our free will. Also, God never offers away to be with Him, as only through Jesus, Who had to die for us could be our connection. And where would we draw the line. If our sin separates us from God, and you say God should end all misery that we place on our own heads, than that can only mean God would have to be here as King, forcing His Kingship as He would need everything Holy. Thus the holy concepts for living would be enforced on all and take away free choice. If part of Gods plan was to allow sin and another part was for Jesus to take away sin, all which so far is free will, then sin must be allowed and cause death to all as flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom and sin cannot be tolorated in Gods presence.

For God to keep free will for us, He must allow decisions made by us, even if those choices bring out many finale destinies as results.

How about all the poor? Should you be forced to give all you have to the poor and you live in equal statis? Maybe you keeping your money, free wii, is causing another to starve. I am not really going after you as a person at all but just making a point that not every one can have justice and free will at the same time. This world has not been fair since the sin of Adam, however, Gods plan does envolve great days ahead for all who call on His holy name and follow Him.

3. What I said about your earlier post's implication that God

"adjusts" to creatures' free decisions may not be what you want to

hold, to the extent that your view so far expressed is coherent (which

is really is not - sorry.) god's "adjustment" is a feature, if not a

term, of the theory that Wm. Lane Craig maintains, i.e. before God

creates the world, God knows what creatures will freely decide in all

possible situations (all possible worlds), and then god chooses to

create just the world that will produce the set of creaturely actions

that he wants. On this theory (Molinism), the adjustment comes in

this transition between God's middle knowledge - by which he knows all

possibilities - and his free knowledge, by which he creates one world,

one set of possibilities, in which creatures will wind up doing just the

things he wants them to do. God, in other words, adjusts his creative

act to what he supposedly foresees are creatures' possible decisions, so

that God picks one set of total decisions out of all possible sets and

actualizes that. so I was guessing that you would agree with Craig. In

fact it seems you may want to be a Calvinist if you push seriously your

claim that God plans for creatures to perform evil actions. But as I

said, this is not clear.

Gods will again is for all to be saved, thus those destined to hell are not of His desire to be there but by personell decisions end up there. Implying if God set up things differently those destined for hell would instead call to Christ is flawed based alone on the story in Luke of the poor man and the rich man after they had physically died in which Abraham states even one being made alive again would not make one choose differently. God knows the heart. Yes, all things are known by Him in advance and knows all decisions that we will make, but by assuming different circumstances would bring different decisions than we are no longer basing it on the heart but the situation and furthure making a just God unjust, and again, would seem to be against free will. God never wills anyone to do evil. Nor did He will Adam to sin. Allowing abd desiring are two different things indeed. God cannot enforce His desires AND allow us free will. This is also why He must allow death and suffering.

I'm not urging you to become a Calvinist! Rather, to work on

exposing the contradictions within your own belief set and to subject

those beliefs, once clarified, to your best reflection and intuition

about life.

I do appreciate your questions. Certainly thought provoking.

My purpose is to do whatever I please. Your purpose is to be a robot for Christ. I like my purpose better.

When I made that choice, I seemed to have hurt a whole lot of people.

People believe what they allow themselves to believe. Why do devout

Christians (like on this forum) after 30 plus years of knowing Jesus

decide to convert to atheism? Or convert to Islam? Or convert to

Scientology? People change their beliefs. Maybe it was the will of

Dawkins, or Allah, or Xenu. Probably not though. It was their own

decision.

Congress used to pray .... probably why we've been involved in the

Spanish American War, War of 1812, Civil War, WW1, WW2, Korean Conflict,

Vietnam War, Gulf Wars, Afghan War .... biblegod is very bloodthirsty.

:-)

Your right. People do change their beliefs. In doing so, they change what they believe to be fact into a lie. That is why when any one calls something fact they better watch out because they in time might call this "fact" a lie.

Yes, the US was far from perfect. We still are and so much more so. One thing was for certain. Family values were held high and a respect for God and for this great nation was expected.

I might push you clear of a real bus provided I would not put myself in danger doing so.

I would not need to push you clear of an imaginary bus, but I might call a mental health technician for you.

Thanks I needed a chuckle.

I got plenty more to reply to. I intend to reply to all replies tonight.

February 21, 2013

Hello Stranger, I appreciate the time and thought you have put into your replies. I'm not going to push the ball further downfield in detailed theological discussion at this point. Christian theologians have been debating this stuff for centuries, and they have worked out a technical vocabulary and have drawn important distinctions for their purposes - for example, among different senses of "God's will." The distinction between God's decretive will and his preceptive will, for example, would add lucidity to your arguments. This is ground already worked over in depth in the Western church (Eastern Orthdoxy is not really into these questions). You may want to look into some classic treatments of these questions, if you haven't already.

I'll just make three points and try to do so briefly (not easy for me!):

1. The immediate issue in the posts we've exchanged is not, can humans make choices and decide things, or can humans do what they decide without some interference in their mental processes from God. No theologian claims that creatures don't make choices. No Calvinist has a problem saying that a creature is the proximate cause of its own choice. The issue is, whether God from eternity decided or determined all outcomes - including creatures' choices - that would occur in the creation he was about to create, or only some of them.

2. You speak about creaturely free will. You need to make clear that this concept - NOT the concept merely of creaturely will - is taught in scripture. BTW unless you can show that you understand ancient Greek, don't talk about the meanings of Greek words. Πότε έμαθες τα Ελληνικά;

3. You make noble efforts to reconcile God's ultimate causation of all things (still not fully clear what your take is - talk of "permission" from an all-powerful being is a cop-out) with his punishment of creatures. The difficulty, which theologians have faced since they had to deal with the NT (I don't comment on Judaism), points out how the bible is a collection of different writings that contain mutually contradictory statements. Some of the verses you point to don't harmonize with other verses. It's OK for believers to fall back on "it's a mystery too deep for us", but that's not a strong argument for belief. A lot of what we've been debating are in fact pseudo-questions; there is in principle no way to demonstrate that an answer is true.

February 21, 2013

Stranger wrote:

You know the word states Gods desire is that all come to Him. This can be found throughout. You also know the bible makes it very clear many times over that the choice to serve God is our choice and that the responsibility falls on our own head. That being said yes, God predestines, knowing who will follow Him and who will not from the very beginning.

This is where you run into some big problems.

The word predestine means to determine in advance, not simply to know in advance.

Scripture states that God predestines according to his will.

Christians cannot come to any agreement on this issue because the Bible is internally conflicted.

Also should be noted. The word hardened in Romans is interesting as all other times it is used it implies choice. In Exodus the word used for God hardening Pharaohs heart had the meaning of strengthen or, as I would say, the ability to choose wrong over right. Paul also mentions after this verse about God enduring with much patience of those destined to wrath, again implying personel choice. The word prepare here means also complete and is used in regards to finishing or to make ready, thus also indication not something done from the start but something allowed for the person to complete his own destruction. We also must remember as the bible states that God take no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He delights in no one spending eternity without Himself and I know scripture is full of such facts.

Once again, you're trying to dilute God's direct manipulation into passive onlooking, while the individual chooses to perform an action.

That's not what scripture says however.

Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

God made his heart stubborn, he didn't just allow him to be stubborn.

If God wants to use a human as a stage prop for his glory, he has no problem in doing so.

The situation with Pharaoh is the same.

You picture will is God gives no choice instead of knowing in advance. You place Him as cause but this would be against scripture in regards to personel choice. He causes no one their downfall, though allowes all to choose life or death.

That directly contradicts Eph 1:4-5,11 which states that God predestines all things according to his will.

Once again, you cannot establish what God does or does not control.

Predestination (aka divine determinism) is alive and well in the Bible, much to the distress of Christians that cannot deal with it.

Perhaps you can define exactly what the words "everything" and "your will" really mean, since you're denying they mean what they so clearly say:

Acts 4:28(NLT)

But everything they did was determined beforehand according to your will.

You have an intense denial for the word, when it doesn't line up with what you prefer to believe.

The reason I'm flogging this issue is because so many believers refuse to accept that scripture cannot be used to establish anything when it contradicts itself.

You cannot claim a universal ability to choose when it is clearly undermined by scripture.

The point being that there is no way to know what God has predestined, and only one instance of it voids claims about God giving choice to all people.

His plan allows personell choice even if the causes and effects are know.

...God does know all things and sets the people and nations in their place so we as a people will grope and reach out for God.

Foreknowledge means to know in advance, while predestine means to determine in advance.

You have no way to know how much personal choice God gives to anyone because God predestines according to his will.

It's his idea, he sets it and fixes it in place.

February 21, 2013

I'm new to this post, so I may be a pain in the ass with respect to the question I want to ask you, stranger. I have not read the whole post. I will later. But the question I want to ask you relates to a presumption that I want you to make for the purpose of discussion. It is intended to get to the real issues first, without presuming the very thing you want us to believe.

That is, will you be willing to presume for the purpose of discussion only that you don't know whether the Bible is the word of God, you don't know if the God of the Bible is the one true God, you don't if Jesus was God's son, or if he was resurrected from the dead, you don't know if there is a God at all, and you don't know who created the earth, stars, sun, moon, animals, plants and human beings Not only do you not know these things, but you neither believe nor deny that the any of the forgoing is true. You will put your mind in neutral to the extent humanly possible. You see, if one enters this discussion with "arguing points" that he wants the other side to take as true, and if these are in fact contested issues, we will get nowhere. So on the major issues, to wit: Is there a god who created the universe and all living creatures, who is omnipotent, all beneficent, all knowing of the past, present and future, and who involves himself in human affairs, I say, on these issues, will you agree to be totally neutral? This way we can discuss the issues based on what can be reasonably shown by empirical evidence and what logically follows from there. If you will do that, you will be the first christian I know of who would. bill

February 21, 2013

"The bible is older,"

Than what? And NO, IT'S NOT. There are other older texts out there... WAY older - in the original

(cuneiform tablets by the thousands - many not even deciphered yet,

Egyptian hieroglyphics carved in stone and written on papyri), quite a

few actually.

All these are older than the Torah: Some by thousands of years.

Early Bronze Age:

2600 BCE Sumerian texts from Abu Salabikh, including the Instructions of Shuruppak and the Kesh temple hymn

2600 BCE Akkadian Legend of Etana

2400 BCE Egyptian Pyramid Texts, including the Cannibal Hymn

2400 BCE Sumerian Code of Urukagina

2400 BCE Egyptian Palermo stone

2350 BCE Egyptian The Maxims of Ptahhotep

2270 BCE Sumerian Enheduanna's Hymns

2250-2000 BCE Sumerian Earliest stories in the Epic of Gilgamesh

2100 BCE Sumerian Curse of Agade

2100 BCE Sumerian Debate between Bird and Fish

2050 BCE Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu

2000 BCE Egyptian Coffin Texts

2000 BCE Sumerian Lament for Ur

2000 BCE Sumerian Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta

1950 Akkadian Laws of Eshnunna

Middle Bronze Age:

1950 BCE Akkadian Laws of Eshnunna

1900 BCE Sumerian Code of Lipit-Ishtar

1900 BCE Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh

1850 BCE Akkadian Kultepe texts

1800 BCE Egyptian Story of Sinuhe (in Hieratic)

*1800 BCE Sumerian Eridu Genesis

*1800 BCE Akkadian Enûma Eliš

(*these two are where the hebrews got their creation myth from - which

goes back to the original story from 2200 BCE Sumerian stories)

1800 BCE Akkadian Atra-Hasis epic

1780 BCE Akkadian Code of Hammurabi stele

1780 BCE Akkadian Mari letters, including the Epic of Zimri-Lim

1750 BCE Hittite Anitta text

1700 BCE Egyptian Westcar Papyrus

1650 BCE Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus

Late Bronze Age:

1700-1100 BCE Vedic Sanskrit: approximate date of the composition of the Rigveda. (Oh looky - the Hindus show up)

1600 BCE Hittite Code of the Nesilim

1500 BCE Akkadian Poor Man of Nippur

1550 BCE Egyptian Book of the Dead

1500 BCE Akkadian Dynasty of Dunnum

Gee whiz, where are the Hebrews in all this history?

1400 BCE Akkadian Marriage of Nergal and Ereshkigal

1400 BCE Akkadian Autobiography of Kurigalzu

1400 BCE Akkadian Amarna letters

1330 BCE Egyptian Great Hymn to the Aten

1240 BCE Egyptian Papyrus of Ani, Book of the Dead

1200 BCE Akkadian Tukulti-Ninurta Epic

Iron Age:

1200-1100 BC approximate date of books RV 1 and RV 10 in the Rigveda (The Hindus again)

1200-800 BC approximate date of the Vedic Sanskrit Yajurveda, Atharvaveda

1050 BC Egyptian Story of Wenamun

1050 BC Akkadian Sakikkū (SA.GIG) “Diagnostic Omens” by Esagil-kin-apli

1050 BC The Babylonian Theodicy of Šaggil-kīnam-ubbib.

1000-600 BC Chinese Classic of Poetry (Shījīng), Classic of Documents (Shūjīng) (authentic portions), Classic of Changes (I Ching)

Where are the Hebrews again?

The oldest surviving Hebrew Bible manuscripts date to about the 2nd century BCE...

You may be right on originals but it is believed by most that Moses wrote the first five books around 1450 putting it before any others and some believe Job to be older. The bible is believed to be the first printed book and everyonr certainly regards the bible to be the oldest book of religion. Ofcourse, dates can be questioned, but if correct, Moses did right the first books in history that are still read today.

"has many more authors"...

So.. it's a collection of books. what's your point? It's also been

revised many many times... Karen Armstrong has a good book on this, "The

History of the Bible". and they still couldn't get it right - it's rife

with contradictions.

"and spans thousands of years,"

the Rig Vedas also span thousands of years, actually more than the bible, so what?

"and can be verified as true in almost every regard,"

No it can't... and it hasn't. Even apologists would

disagree with you here. True as in the Exodus? Never happened.. not one

iota of archaeological or historical evidence exists to support that

claim.. not one.

http://www.charismamag.com/site-archives/570-news/featured-news/4255-archeologists-find-proof-of-israelite-exodus-entry-to-canaan

http://www.konig.org/wc188.htm

http://appleofgodseye.wordpress.com/2011/02/01/forgotten-sinai-inscriptions-prove-exodus-was-real/

"more so than any other book, more

so with those dating back even a fraction of the bible, and we have more

copies of the bible than any other historic book."

I've dealt with the dating above... and of course we have more

copies. The Catholic Church has made a living off of copying biblical

texts—had entire monasteries devoted to it. Most copies were made after

200AD. The largest proportion probably after 800AD, your point?

I mean, these words were written down well before paper.

You are seriously an historical ignoramus. Do you even know who

invented paper? Do you have any conception of the historical timeline

of.. anything? (based in reality?)

"Paper, and the pulp papermaking process, was said to be developed in China during the early 2nd century AD by the Han court eunuch Cai Lun, although the earliest archaeological fragments of paper derive from the 2nd century BC in China"

"For a long time the Chinese closely guarded the secret of paper

manufacture and tried to eliminate other Oriental centers of production

to ensure a monopoly. However in 751 A.D. the T'ang army was defeated by

the Ottoman Turks at a mighty battle at the Talas River. Some Chinese

soldiers and paper makers were captured and brought to Samarkand. The

Arabs learned the paper making from

the Chinese prisoners and built the first paper industry in Baghdad in

793 A.D. They, too, kept it a secret, and Europeans did not learn how to

make paper until several centuries later. The Egyptians learned the

paper making from the Arabs during the early 10th century. Around 1100

A.D. paper arrived in Northern Africa and by 1150 A.D. it arrived to Spain as a result of the crusades and established the first paper industry in Europe."

source - http://www.silk-road...permaking.shtml

Could be Egypt used papryus around 2500

The Dead Sea Scrolls were written on parchment.(inner lining of goatskin) Around 150 — 200BC. These are the oldest existing documents we have of the Hebrew texts.

Can you show me even one book that

comes close to the diversity, age, and factual points found true than

what the bible has to say. I think not. There is none.

What factual points found true? Talking donkeys? Vague assertions with no support. The rest is dealt with above. You lie.

You take for truth books a fraction

of the bibles age written by one author with few copies yet throw the

bible as trash. Honestly, have you done your homework? There is none

other that comes

close to comparing."

What 'books' are you referring to that we take as truth?

I don't know one person here that swallows anything without investigation... no matter who wrote what.

You are making a fool of yourself with your incredible lack of knowledge of ancient history and literature.. and you lie. Yes, I have done my homework... I'm an art historian. hmmm... there is a decided lack

of Hebrew art, including literature, in the ancient middle-east.

However... there is TONS of it from Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc... There are

some people, just on this website alone, that could mop the floor with

your 'knowledge' with their eyes closed and one hand behind their

backs.. because we cared enough to seek the truth no matter how uncomfortable it was, and we did our friggin' homework... my 14 year old daughter knows more about history than you do.

This could be true. I have read many books concerning the history of the bible but I did not do a huge study on comparing to all other books, though earlier when I did the evedince seemed prettty over whelming for the bible comparison being different from any other and earlier originals in the quanity. Any how, yes, you have done your homework.

I was right about all of it. Many god myths have a god who died and

three days later rose again. Jesus was just a plagiarism of earlier

religions. And I've been the life transformed with Jesus dwelling

inside me Christen filled with the Holy Spirit and all that. I lived it

for 35 years. It is self-delusion and willful ignorance. Christianity

brings the opposite of forgiveness because Christianity must invent the

sin to make people feel guilty. Your God is no more real than any

other man-made God. And in the original Old Testament sources Judaism

was pagan and polytheistic. All those names for God were not different

names for the same God. They were different names for the different

gods worshiped by the Jewish people. Yahweh had a wife goddess. The

"sons of God" mentioned in Job and Psalm mean the 70 gods who were the

children of the High God. That is right - Yahweh and "the accuser" were

originally brothers. That is why Yahweh's brother Jehovah commanded

that no other gods be worshiped before him. And it's why in Genesis 2

the Gods and Goddesses were talking among themselves and decided to make

humans in their own images. Eve was in the image of all the goddesses.

Your religion is a pack of lies.

That is a lot to chew on. Do you know of any links of these statements.

                    Posted Yesterday, 06:14 AM











BBA, do me a favor if you would. type out just ten things, just

out of the blue, the first things that come to your head, that are

"facts" and let us see where the road takes us. No cheating. LOL Just

quick responses, than thinking.

No problem!

1. I'm wearing glasses.

2. My cat is called Beauty.
does your cat get called any other names by any one on even on ocasion? If so, 2 could have more than one fact.

3. She drinks mineral water.
Like wise was statement 3. Does your cat drink milk?

4. I ate chicken yesterday.
Wings?, Thighs?, tenders?. If someone said you ate wings yesterday would they be wrong?

5. The capital of China is Beijing.

6. I'm painfully slow at texting.

7. I like vanilla.

8. My garden needs some work.

9. Abraham Lincoln is dead.

10. You live near the Great Lakes.

Those do?

Fyi, Stranger, here are some additional facts about those ten facts I listed.

1. It doesn't matter what you believe about them - they remain facts, not beliefs.
true, however, more than one fact can be said or found within, and if so, unless understood in context, someone learning English could declare contradictions.

2. It doesn't matter what you believe about them - your beliefs change nothing about them.
True, but if we claim our beliefs are facts or facts are our beliefs is it possible to change what one believes? if so, a preceived fact changes with it. You may say that in that case it was never fact but if at the time we believed it to be so, how many other facts are really just a wrong belief?

3. It doesn't matter what you believe about them - all you can do is accept or deny them.
Unless we learn different down the road.

4. It doesn't matter what I believe about them, either - all I can do is accept or deny them.

5. Beijing has been the capital of China since 1949 and nothing you or I believe can change that fact.

6. The truth of any fact is independent of anyone's belief or doubt

in it. This explains why people can be killed by things don't know about

(i.e., things they haven't had a chance to believe in or not.)
True. That being said, is there a good chance what we believe to be fact is not? Or unknown facts that will challenge the preceived facts of today?

7. The truth of any fact remains the truth, regardless of anyone's

belief. That's why a falling tree makes a noise, even if nobody hears

it. Reality doesn't need us to believe in it, for it to be real.

8. The truth of any fact can't be altered by our decision to

disbelieve it. Disbelief changes nothing, except our minds. Which is

why we can only accept or deny the facts and never change them from what

they are.

9. Abraham Lincoln's death is a recorded historical fact. All you

can do is to accept or deny that. Nothing you believe or disbelieve

changes anything, Stranger - except inside your head.

10. If I choose to believe that you live on Mars, does my belief change the truth of the fact that you don't?

BAA

p.s.

It's BAA, not BBA. ok?

I got ya BAA. BAA is a fact and another fact is it is not BBA. After all of these years I might just agree with you. The problem comes in when what we believe to be fact may be found out to be wrong later on. Sometimes misunderstandings happen when different points of the same facts are told in different ways. With science, our facts seem to change often, unless you would comply that what was thought of as fact was not fact at all. In doing so, one has to question everything else one considers or calls fact right now. If we say all the evidence points toward this fact thus conclude it to be fact but later find new evidence that dismantkes the first or puts it into a new light than we must conclude what we use to hold as fact was a lie. Thus why I always have said it is what we choose to be fact. You are right. A fact is a fact, but we must be very careful in understanding we may be wrong upon many things we believe or call facts.

February 21, 2013

You may be right on originals but it is believed by most that Moses wrote the first five books around 1450 putting it before any others and some believe Job to be older. The bible is believed to be the first printed book and everyonr certainly regards the bible to be the oldest book of religion. Ofcourse, dates can be questioned, but if correct, Moses did right the first books in history that are still read today.

If those same people believed the Earth was flat that would not make the world flat.

Moses was just as real as the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny. There was no "Let my people go". There was no Exodus. There was no climbing down the mountain with the Ten Commandments. There was no millions of people camping around the tabernacle. There was no mana from heaven, no wandering for 40 years and no conquering of the Promised Land. All of that was just make believe. The first seven books of Old Testament are complete fiction. You know the Ten Commandments were lifted strait out of Egyptian religion.

If you want to learn the truth it will probably end your faith. Wouldn't you rather stay in the Matrix and go back to sleep?

Edit:

That is a lot to chew on. Do you know of any links of these statements.

If you want to learn the truth SRD has already done a better job explaining it than I ever could.

http://contradictionsinthebible.com/conflicting-portraits-of-israels-deity/

http://contradictionsinthebible.com/how-the-bible-was-discovered-to-be-a-collection-of-contradictory-texts/

http://contradictionsinthebible.com/how-do-we-know-that-the-biblical-writers-were-not-writing-history/

That is very close to if not the exact consensus of the world's experts outside of Christianity. When you don't have a pastor's words biasing your view of the Bible you can see that it's a hodge podge of different religions.

February 21, 2013

You are right in one thing. I wish all to be saved. You see, out of all Gods and religions, Jesus is the only one known to have died for our sins and rose again in three days. Christianity, that a transformed life brings actions, the basics are grace and forgiveness. Christians are world wide. All other religions are based on works and dead Gods or Gods who only wish to bring destruction and no love and peace can usually be found. Jesus is the only God Who is alive from the grave and gives all who ask His Holy Spirit do dwell inside of us.

Hope you don't mind my butting into this discussion. If I may as, what do statements such as "Jesus is the only one know to have died for our sins..." and "all other religions are based on works and dead Gods..." even mean? Let me clarify this. As an ex-Christian who is not an atheist, I've got no problem with your claims of the existence of the supernatural. But when you say that only Jesus is the only god who died for our sins, you're assuming everyone believes that some atonement for sin is necessary in everyone's mind. I could just as well say that Sri Krishna is the only God who's instructed a warrior on the eve of a holy war (and I intentionally chose an example from a religion I actually believe in). And your statement that other religions are based on dead gods seems likewise meaningless. No one believes that their God is dead. I certainly don't.

I see evangelicals repeatedly making statements to the effect of "my God died for me and yours didn't," or "my God is alive and yours is dead." These statements aren't legitimate arguments; they are only persuasive if you already believe that they're true. I'm hoping that you can expand on this. A lot, if possible. If you say something substantive, I honestly don't mind reading a long post.

February 21, 2013

I got ya BAA. BAA is a fact and another fact is it is not BBA. After all of these years I might just agree with you. The problem comes in when what we believe to be fact may be found out to be wrong later on.

Stranger, you a truly, madly and deeply confused as to what these three words mean and how they should be used.

Truth. Fact. Belief.

Truth does not depend on belief. If you believe something to be true, your belief does not make it so.

Facts do not depend on belief. If you believe something is a fact, the onus is on you to verify your belief - with evidence.

If you cannot verify it, then you are free to believe that it is a fact, but don't expect anyone else to accept that it is, just because you believe it is.

Likewise, if you believe something is true, but you don't have the evidence to prove it, don't expect anyone else to accept that it is true, just because you believe it is.

Truth and facts exist independently of our beliefs and cannot be affected by them.

Belief is a personal choice on the part of the believer. Got that?

Sometimes misunderstandings happen when different points of the same facts are told in different ways. With science, our facts seem to change often, unless you would comply that what was thought of as fact was not fact at all. In doing so, one has to question everything else one considers or calls fact right now. If we say all the evidence points toward this fact thus conclude it to be fact but later find new evidence that dismantkes the first or puts it into a new light than we must conclude what we use to hold as fact was a lie.

No. That is not correct, Stranger.

A lie is an intentional attempt to subvert a known truth or fact. Like this... "The capital of China is Paris."

See? I deliberately subverted a known, true fact, with an incorrect, untrue one.

When new scientific evidence overturns an older concept or theory, this doesn't mean that the old automatically becomes lies. In science, nothing is ever fully or absolutely known for sure. Science is tentative and offers theoretical explanations for how and why things happen. These theories are tested with observations and experiments. If the results match up with the predictions, then that theory is deemed to be proven - that is all.

Science is not absolute truth and it's wrong to think that it is. Science never claims to the absolute truth. However, science does work. Our technological 21st century global society is evidence of that. Your use of a computer is evidence of that too. Ok Stranger, you can choose to believe otherwise... that's fine. Nobody's stopping you. But there's a word that describes a person who believes one thing, but lives according to another. It's got nine letters, starts with H and ends with E. I'll leave you to fill in the blanks.

Thus why I always have said it is what we choose to be fact. You are right. A fact is a fact, but we must be very careful in understanding we may be wrong upon many things we believe or call facts.

Indeed!

That is why we must always back up our beliefs with evidence. That is why we must always seek to find out the facts. If we can't do either of these things, the most honest course of action is to say that we cannot support our beliefs with evidence or facts. We must also say that our beliefs are not the truth, but that we believe that they are.

Agreed? Y? N?

BBA, do me a favor if you would. type out just ten things, just
out of the blue, the first things that come to your head, that are
"facts" and let us see where the road takes us. No cheating. LOL Just
quick responses, than thinking.

No problem!

1. I'm wearing glasses.

2. My cat is called Beauty.

does your cat get called any other names by any one on even on ocasion? If so, 2 could have more than one fact.

Even if she does, that doesn't change, alter, revoke, negate, nullify or call into question what her name is. That fact stays a fact.
Even if we believe she has another name, that doesn't change the fact that her name is Beauty. Our beliefs change nothing.

3. She drinks mineral water.

Like wise was statement 3. Does your cat drink milk?

That makes no difference to the fact that she drinks mineral water. Nor does it matter if we believe she does. Our beliefs don't change the facts.

4. I ate chicken yesterday.

Wings?, Thighs?, tenders?. If someone said you ate wings yesterday would they be wrong?

All three options are still chicken. You can't change that fact by messing around with language. Even if you believe that I ate fish, that doesn't change the fact that I ate chicken. There's a word to describe what you'd be if you believed I ate fish. It's called being... wrong.
There's another word to describe what you'd be Stranger, if you persisted in believing things because you want to. It's called... denial.

The facts stay the facts, no matter how much you believe otherwise and no matter how much you deny them.

5. The capital of China is Beijing.

6. I'm painfully slow at texting.

7. I like vanilla.

8. My garden needs some work.

9. Abraham Lincoln is dead.

10. You live near the Great Lakes.

Those do?

Fyi, Stranger, here are some additional facts about those ten facts I listed.

1. It doesn't matter what you believe about them - they remain facts, not beliefs.

true, however, more than one fact can be said or found within, and if so, unless understood in context, someone learning English could declare contradictions.

Even if the facts become contradictory, so long as you understand where the contradictions are, they remain as facts. Contradiction doesn't automatically equal lies. It does, if something is claimed to be true and is then found to be untrue. (The capital of China is Paris.) If I claim this is true, when I know it's not, that's a lie - an intentional untruth.

Contradictions are different to lies.

2. It doesn't matter what you believe about them - your beliefs change nothing about them.

True, but if we claim our beliefs are facts or facts are our beliefs is it possible to change what one believes? if so, a preceived fact changes with it. You may say that in that case it was never fact but if at the time we believed it to be so, how many other facts are really just a wrong belief?

Facts are not beliefs. How many times have I told you this, Stranger? (No. Don't answer that. Too many times is the answer.) Facts stand on their own and don't need us to believe in them or have faith in them. All we can do is accept or deny them. I don't need to believe that my glasses are resting on my nose - that is a fact. If I disbelieve that they are, do they vanish, with a loud 'pop'? No. Of course not.

Facts are true information about reality and have nothing to do with belief.

Agreed? Y? N?

3. It doesn't matter what you believe about them - all you can do is accept or deny them.

Unless we learn different down the road.

If we learn different down the road, all that will happen is that we are presented with the option of accepting or denying these new facts. The old ones don't automatically become lies.

4. It doesn't matter what I believe about them, either - all I can do is accept or deny them.

5. Beijing has been the capital of China since 1949 and nothing you or I believe can change that fact.

6. The truth of any fact is independent of anyone's belief or doubt
in it. This explains why people can be killed by things don't know about
(i.e., things they haven't had a chance to believe in or not.)

True. That being said, is there a good chance what we believe to be fact is not? Or unknown facts that will challenge the preceived facts of today?

Nobody 'believes' in a fact as an act of faith, Stranger.

If something is factual and correct and supported by evidence, there's no need to have faith in it is there? I don't need to have faith that my glasses are still on my nose, do I? This explains why Christianity is a FAITH, not a fact. It explains why Christianity is a BELIEF system, not a system of facts. If everything about Christianity were backed up with hard evidence, there'd be no need for Christians to have faith and belief, would there?

The Bible itself confirms this.

Please read Hebrews 11.

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for."

The apostle Paul then goes on to list people from the Old Testament, as examples of faith.

v3. It is by faith (not facts) that Christians understand about the creation of the universe. Christians cannot see the evidence, but God asks them to have faith - in the absence of evidence.

v4. Abel could not see God, as his parents Adam and Eve did, but he had faith in something (God) that he could not see.

v5&6. Ditto with Enoch. He could not see God, but had enough faith to please God.

v7. Noah was warned about things not yet seen and was obedient and faithful.

v8-12. Abraham did not see the place he was called to go to, but went there - guided by faith, not facts.

He did not see the heavenly city God had promised, but believed in it by faith.

They did not see the facts. They were not given evidence. They did not receive the things they were promised.

Paul lists Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets as examples of people who... did not receive what they had been promised.

Do you see it now?

Faith and belief fill in the gaps in the facts and the evidence.

Where there is hard, factual evidence, no faith or belief is needed.

7. The truth of any fact remains the truth, regardless of anyone's
belief. That's why a falling tree makes a noise, even if nobody hears
it. Reality doesn't need us to believe in it, for it to be real.

8. The truth of any fact can't be altered by our decision to
disbelieve it. Disbelief changes nothing, except our minds. Which is
why we can only accept or deny the facts and never change them from what
they are.

9. Abraham Lincoln's death is a recorded historical fact. All you
can do is to accept or deny that. Nothing you believe or disbelieve
changes anything, Stranger - except inside your head.

10. If I choose to believe that you live on Mars, does my belief change the truth of the fact that you don't?

BAA

Now Stranger, you can believe the Bible is factual, but your belief is an act of faith, not an acceptance of the facts. The facts of the Bible are mostly unverifiable. There's no evidence outside of the Bible to support most of what it says.

That's why Christians need faith and belief to fill in the gaps in the evidence.

Is that clearer now?

BAA.

Why Do You Remain A Christian?

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