Challenge for Christians - GO and preach!

[MQTA]

 

 

I'm not angry or disdainful. Once again jumping to conclusions and generalizing. The woman that got healed from MS is the worship leader at my church, Viola. No she doesn't have a link. So it's just my word you'll have to take.

 

Does she have before and after MRI's and lumbar punctures showing no more lesions or o-bands?

 

Was she taking LDN maybe? She's fully 'healed' (as in remission) and has not had any attacks in over 5 years?

 

The people I know with MS are majorly Christian and they pray and pray and pray and they just seem to get worse and worse and worse. Only those taking LDN seem to be improving.

[Ruth]

That'd be quite a "placebo effect" - bones growing back together. Although I've never witnessed a healing, I firmly believe in God's power to do so. I think that the reason that you typically don't see them is that a) in America, a public display of this sort would only incite skepticism and not further the Kingdom, and American Christians as a collective group don't have the faith of those in China who are *just trusting enough* to believe in God's power. My pastor has missionary friends in Korea and China and she's passed on the stories of miracles that have happened there. God's moving big time in China, praise Him!

 

In the past few days, I've personally experienced God's great love, seen people break down in grateful tears having received His grace, and heard my calling, loud and clear: I'm going to minister to the world, every way I can, trusting in God to lead me where I'm supposed to be. Y'all, I believe with all my heart and I wish you could too. Oh to grace, how great a debtor, daily I'm constrained to be...

 

I'm really tired right now, and I'll probably be laughed at a bit for this, but I do love y'all, and what's more, Jesus does too.

[SkepticOfBible]

That'd be quite a "placebo effect" - bones growing back together. Although I've never witnessed a healing, I firmly believe in God's power to do so.

I don't think he said about bones growing back in place. He said that the broken bone went back into place, and I said medically that is not an extraordinary, and plus this phenomema is not limited to christian.

 

Now a man growing limbs(bones). That would be a miracle

 

in America, a public display of this sort would only incite skepticism and not further the Kingdom

 

Well didn't jesus do miracles?

 

Do you why Christians are preaching a gospels?

 

Mark 16:15-19

 

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

 

Christian will blindly follow Mark 16:15, but whatever happened to the rest. Are christians just picking and choosing the verses they like. What sort of caferia religion is this?

 

Miracles would definately blow away a lot of my skeptism.

 

ironically this is what the biblegateway.com has the opinion of the above verses

 

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

 

That speaks so much for the reliabilty of textual integrity.

 

I'm going to minister to the world, every way I can, trusting in God

The day you can replicate one miracle that jesus claimed to do, then I will let go a lot of skeptism.

 

Don't think me as god-hater, think of me as the Doubting Thomas. If he could get his extraordinary evidence, then why can't I?

 

 

My pastor has missionary friends in Korea and China and she's passed on the stories of miracles that have happened there.

 

And I pretty sure in Roswell you will find tons of individuals who say that they were abducted by aliens? Do you believe them?

 

Anecdotes are just one of the methods of brainwashing

 

Both you and Sadie should check this out

 

http://www.dicksutphen.com/html/battlemind.html

 

Jesus loves you

 

No he doesn't. he is gonna burn me in hell because I don't believe in him

[Asimov]

God's moving big time in China, praise Him!

 

So did opium, and look what that did to China.

[All Gods Fail]

Y'all, I believe with all my heart and I wish you could too.

 

Well, we all did believe once - then we wised up. Hopefully you will too, some day.

[Sadie]

 

 

I'm not angry or disdainful. Once again jumping to conclusions and generalizing. The woman that got healed from MS is the worship leader at my church, Viola. No she doesn't have a link. So it's just my word you'll have to take.

 

Does she have before and after MRI's and lumbar punctures showing no more lesions or o-bands?

 

Was she taking LDN maybe? She's fully 'healed' (as in remission) and has not had any attacks in over 5 years?

 

The people I know with MS are majorly Christian and they pray and pray and pray and they just seem to get worse and worse and worse. Only those taking LDN seem to be improving.

 

She is on no medication what soever. and she hasn't had an attack for over 9 years. Soon to be ten. She has had MRI's done I do'nt know about lumbar punctures.

 

It sounds kinda warped to me to think that a bone protruding out of the skin which is an indication of a pretty bad break because it was WAY out of the skin(gross and not pretty yuck) magically bending back to where it is supposed to be and fusing back together to the point that there was NO indication whatsoever from the X-rays taken afterwards that there possibly could have been a break there. So it would have to be a pretty good placebo affect.

[Mythra]

It wasn't medically curable. She broker her leg it was broken out of the skin, we prayed and at that moment watched it bend back into place and heal as if nothing broke at all. To me that is amazing. It's not everyday I see a bone that is broken out of the skin go back into place and fuse back together before my eyes. So to me it's impressive.

 

I don't want to say you're lying, but you're lying.

 

For one thing, a compound fracture of a person's leg is medically curable. Unless the bone is shattered completely. And then the leg is amputated.

 

If you and other witnesses including doctors - had watched a compound fracture as it healed itself, it would have been the lead story on CNN.

 

You're a liar for Jesus. Welcome to the Eusebius club.

[Vixentrox]

You would think with all these miracles, some would be recorded on camera with doctors and scientists on hand to verify the event and the healing. But no, that never happens. Your god sure is stupid. He could get a lot more souls in heaven that way. Oh but then, that would mean less people for him to torture eternally, and he don't seem to want that since 90% of the people that ever lived are going to be in hell.

[Sadie]

It wasn't medically curable. She broker her leg it was broken out of the skin, we prayed and at that moment watched it bend back into place and heal as if nothing broke at all. To me that is amazing. It's not everyday I see a bone that is broken out of the skin go back into place and fuse back together before my eyes. So to me it's impressive.

 

I don't want to say you're lying, but you're lying.

 

For one thing, a compound fracture of a person's leg is medically curable. Unless the bone is shattered completely. And then the leg is amputated.

 

If you and other witnesses including doctors - had watched a compound fracture as it healed itself, it would have been the lead story on CNN.

 

You're a liar for Jesus. Welcome to the Eusebius club.

 

We didn't pray for her at the hospital. She broke it while a bunch of us were at her house. We prayed and watched it heal. She later went to the hospital to make sure that nothing else was wrong. Don't know why she went but her husband who isn't a believer made her go.

 

You would think with all these miracles, some would be recorded on camera with doctors and scientists on hand to verify the event and the healing. But no, that never happens. Your god sure is stupid. He could get a lot more souls in heaven that way. Oh but then, that would mean less people for him to torture eternally, and he don't seem to want that since 90% of the people that ever lived are going to be in hell.

 

Even if it was captured on camera or whatever it would still be explained away by someone or doubted by someone.

[SkepticOfBible]

You would think with all these miracles, some would be recorded on camera with doctors and scientists on hand to verify the event and the healing. But no, that never happens. Your god sure is stupid. He could get a lot more souls in heaven that way. Oh but then, that would mean less people for him to torture eternally, and he don't seem to want that since 90% of the people that ever lived are going to be in hell.

 

Even if it was captured on camera or whatever it would still be explained away by someone or doubted by someone.

 

 

So is skeptism wrong?

 

Would you believe a person if he came up to you and showed video evidence of aliens? What sort of objective criteria would use to see that this person is lying?

 

I have asked why we do not hear about the supernatural miracles that are described in the bible?and there are tons of it, eg walking on water, parting of the red sea, chain of lighting coming from the sky.

 

Those are fantastic events and that will definately lend a lot of credibility for the bible, because the bible say that those who believe will be able to perform great miracles.

 

Freak, even in acts there are some amazing miracles(eg Peter raising someone from the dead), so why don't happen today?

 

Does this mean that there no true christians?

 

And BTW you never answered my question?

 

1)What is a true christian

2)What do you mean when you say "To Walk in the way of Christ"

 

 

We didn't pray for her at the hospital. She broke it while a bunch of us were at her house. We prayed and watched it heal. She later went to the hospital to make sure that nothing else was wrong. Don't know why she went but her husband who isn't a believer made her go.

 

I believe you that ,this thing could have happened, but I also explained to you that is not something extraordinary.

[crazy-tiger]

I repeat..

What I want to know is... why do we never hear about these miracles in the news or anything? I mean, this kind of thing would be NEWS!

 

 

 

Actually, this isn't quite true... things like this do surface from time to time. Problem is, they turn up in the newspaper that also prints such stories as "Space Cabbages ate my underwear", "My son turned into a fishfinger", "B17 bomber found on moon", "London bus found frozen at south pole", "Hitler was a transvestite", and (one of my personal favourites) "Hitler steals B17 bomber on moon"...

 

Just how gullible would you have to be to believe any of those?

 

No way on earth would anyone be able to keep something like that quiet if it had indeed happened... So, why don't we ever hear about them?

[SkepticOfBible]

I think the following is sort of related to the discussion we are having ie regarding skepticism

 

The Christian claim of authenticity relies to a large extent on the validity of Old Testament prophecy. It is claimed by Christian apologists that these prophecies, said to have been given by God to selected men long before the birth of Jesus, foretell not only his coming but also many important events which took place during his brief lifetime. So, it’s all a part of God’s grand plan. But what about the prophecies of other holy books and their fulfillment? Are they legitimate? Do they have any claim on authenticity? In that regard, let us take a brief look at one example in the Book of Mormon.

 

In the Book of Mormon there is a very interesting prophecy foretelling its coming. The prediction is spelled out in language far more explicit and conclusive than can be found anywhere in Bible prophecies. In 2nd Nephi 11 verse 125 of the Revised Authorized Version*, it reads as follows:

 

And it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall bring forth to you the words of a book, and they shall be the words of them that have slumbered.

 

The book is described in the next seven verses. But, in Nephi 133 we are told:

 

Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered to the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hidden from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it, save it be that three witnesses shall behold it by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.

Sure enough, in the front of every Book of Mormon in a section appropriately titled "The Testimony of Three Witnesses" is a statement signed by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris swearing in the name of God that they had seen the actual plates with the engravings on them from which the book came. Prophecy made; prophecy fulfilled.

 

As if that weren’t enough, on the facing page is the testimony of eight additional witnesses who swear, also in the name of God, that they not only saw the golden plates but actually handled them. I understand that at the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints in Salt Lake City, Utah they still have the official signed affidavits of all of these witnesses. They are there for anyone and everyone to see.

 

Now, here is an example of a prophecy made and fulfilled with confirming witnesses. Yet I’m sure that most non-Mormons, particularly fundamentalist Christians, will put no credence what so ever in any of it. In fact, they might even scoff at it. When confronted with this evidence they quickly switch their demeanor from that of a true believer to that of a bonafide skeptic. Yet the evidence here is many times more convincing than anything they can come up with from the Bible. In fact, if Bible believers had anything even close to this confirming evidence they would be shouting it from the roof tops.

 

In reality, however, the Mormon claims of prophecy fulfillment are just as open to question as are any others. The reason is obvious. It is the common sense principal declaring that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. In the matter of a prophetic claim like this one, mere human testimony is inadequate. We are going to demand something far more convincing than a few words written in a book, particularly a book of dubious origin like the Bible. We are sensible enough to realize that there are more reasonable explanations than the one offered. We understand that men can be sincere but honestly mistaken. We understand also that men can deliberately lie.

 

So, I would suggest to those hinging their faith on the claim of Old Testament prophecy fulfillment that they apply the same common sense judgment to their beliefs that they so readily apply to similar claims cited in the holy books of other religions. Just ask yourself, "Why should I believe a thing simply because it is written in a book?"

 

Book of Mormon

[Mythra]

We didn't pray for her at the hospital. She broke it while a bunch of us were at her house. We prayed and watched it heal. She later went to the hospital to make sure that nothing else was wrong. Don't know why she went but her husband who isn't a believer made her go.

 

Okay - now we're getting somewhere. And, in the medical report after her examination and xrays - did it identify the location of the break, and mention that it had been healed on it's own? Did the doctor say OMG - the only way this could happen is by a miracle? No.

 

It said that there was no evidence that there had been a break. Which, of course, everyone took to be more proof of how thoroughly God heals when he heals.

 

Sadie - use your head, girl. Compound fractures don't heal themselves. I've seen plenty of em.

 

Sprains, strains, contusions, cuts, abrasions, heal themselves. Compound fractures do not. Not even with "God's" intervention.

[Checkmate]

...................

In reality, however, the Mormon claims of prophecy fulfillment are just as open to question as are any others. The reason is obvious. It is the common sense principal declaring that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. In the matter of a prophetic claim like this one, mere human testimony is inadequate. We are going to demand something far more convincing than a few words written in a book, particularly a book of dubious origin like the Bible. We are sensible enough to realize that there are more reasonable explanations than the one offered. We understand that men can be sincere but honestly mistaken. We understand also that men can deliberately lie.

 

So, I would suggest to those hinging their faith on the claim of Old Testament prophecy fulfillment that they apply the same common sense judgment to their beliefs that they so readily apply to similar claims cited in the holy books of other religions. Just ask yourself, "Why should I believe a thing simply because it is written in a book?"

 

Book of Mormon

This post is the PERFECT addition to my other thread that is being spammed to death (yet being avoided by Christians). Thanks for this post, pritishd! Great stuff.

[Checkmate]

And since we're still on the topic of miracles, and NOT evangelism, I may as well add this quote by John Hospers, as written in George Smith's "Atheism: The Case Against God." It reads:

It is interesting to observe...that people are quick to accept as a miracle any unusual event, or an event that goes contrary to natural probabilities, as long as it works in their favor. A hundred people are killed in an airplane accident, but one survives. "It's a miracle!" say the survivor and his family. What the families of the non-survivors had to say about the matter is usually not recorded...In general, people who already have some kind of theistic belief are apt to call miraculous any event that is unusual, whose causes they do not fully know, and that works in their favor...what people call a miracle depends very much on what they want to believe, more than on what the facts of the case are.

[Pariah]

On the subject of coincidences:

When my mother, then named Jennifer Rummel, entered her first year of high school she had someone in a few of her classes who had the same name, Jennifer Rummel. Her step-sister, Diane Rummel, was in the same classes. Because it was impractical for the teacher to call both my mom and the other Jenn Rummel the same name she decided to call the other girl by her middle name. When asked for her middle name the other girl replied "Diane". So now they had a Jennifer Rummel, a Diane Rummel, and a Jennifer Diane Rummel all in the same class. Just a coincidence, or divine intervention?

[Sadie]

There was no indication of a break. Why if it was a miracle, God couldn't heal it to the point there saw no break indication. God has no limits.

[crazy-tiger]

There was no indication of a break. Why if it was a miracle, God couldn't heal it to the point there saw no break indication. God has no limits.

I repeat..

What I want to know is... why do we never hear about these miracles in the news or anything? I mean, this kind of thing would be NEWS!

 

 

 

Actually, this isn't quite true... things like this do surface from time to time. Problem is, they turn up in the newspaper that also prints such stories as "Space Cabbages ate my underwear", "My son turned into a fishfinger", "B17 bomber found on moon", "London bus found frozen at south pole", "Hitler was a transvestite", and (one of my personal favourites) "Hitler steals B17 bomber on moon"...

 

Just how gullible would you have to be to believe any of those?

No way on earth would anyone be able to keep something like that quiet if it had indeed happened... So, why don't we ever hear about them?

 

 

 

 

Why do I get the idea you can't answer this?

[MQTA]

 

 

She is on no medication what soever. and she hasn't had an attack for over 9 years. Soon to be ten. She has had MRI's done I do'nt know about lumbar punctures.

 

 

 

And what has she done to share her secrets with the multitude suffering from MS? IN the last 9 years more people have been DX'd than ever before. They're all over the web in prayer circles but they don't seem to be getting any better.

 

Why hasn't she been on Larry King, Montel Williams, or wrote a book like Tom Bayuk?

 

What has she done differently than everyone else? She should be known all over the world by now, no? Or is she the only one of millions who can accomplish this wonderful feat?

[Mythra]

There was no indication of a break. Why if it was a miracle, God couldn't heal it to the point there saw no break indication. God has no limits.

 

Sadie. I know you want to believe. I do.

 

But, there was no indication of the break because the leg had never been broken. Exactly what I indicated in my post.

 

Why do you think I knew that the doctors would not be able to find where the break had been? I was a christian for 25 years, Sadie. 25 years. I have seen shit like this over and over again.

 

Let your gullibility support your faith if you like. But, if you hang out here, we are going to challenge you to think, to question things, to provide support for your claims. Fantastic claims will be called on the carpet here every time.

[Vigile]

I'm not getting records and posting them on here to prove to you anything. You can say I'm lying or not I really don't care. Because no matter what I would put on here you would never believe it.

 

Don't get huffy here, you're the one making outragious claims. Do you think that we should just roll over and accept your word here? Do you also have a bridge to sell us? We are being reasonable, if you're claims can't withstand reasonable scrutiny, then don't make them. That's all.

 

Now, it shouldn't be that hard to find just one medically document miracle in the world being that the almighty runs around performing miracles every day. Just one, that's not too much to ask don't you think? You are going to get called out on your hearsay every time here though. If you want a gulible audience then try church where you will find a crowd.

 

It wasn't medically curable. She broker her leg it was broken out of the skin, we prayed and at that moment watched it bend back into place and heal as if nothing broke at all. To me that is amazing. It's not everyday I see a bone that is broken out of the skin go back into place and fuse back together before my eyes. So to me it's impressive.

 

I don't believe you. I still think you are leaving out details.

 

We are reasonable people, but if one of us made the claim that they saw Santa magically flow down their chimney pipe, deliver his goods, twinkle his nose, and then vanish up the pipe as quickly as he came you would either think we are lying, on drugs, insane, or are not providing all the details.

[Jose]

Yeah, I'll never forget this one time, when I was hanging out with Jehovah, Satan, and Moses playing golf and I sliced my ball really bad over into the rough and Jesus was like, "Sorry... no miracles for atheists. Convert to Christianity and I'll put your ball on the fairway." but Satan was all like, "Dude, that's a bummer. Gimme your soul and I'll just plop your ball right in the hole."

 

I asked Moses, "What about you? You got anything to offer?"

 

and he said, "I can help you finance golf lessons."

 

Really, this happened. Just like that.

[Guest spumoni]

We should edit this slightly to get it by the censors and then post it on several christian forums to see what response it gets.

57668[/snapback]

 

I'm game if you are! I've already edited it for Xian content. (Made myself sound like a raving Fundie. Quite scary actually. Shudder!) I'd just like some of you to proofread it for content and believability.

 

The REAL trouble is doing this without the lurkers...DAMN! They've already seen THIS post! Someone is bound to blow the whistle on us.

 

Oh well. I'm still willing to go along with the gag. Let me know, children!

 

 

This post seems a little weak. Maybe you should direct your comments towards the Christians in the two thirds world who are sending missionaries HERE to the United States. Your view is very ethnocentric. There are more Christians in the rest of the world than America.

[Vixentrox]

They send them to the US becuase it's ummm...safe? Try sending your pathetic people into North Korea for a change. That is, unless Christians are afraid of death.....

[Asimov]

 

 

This post seems a little weak. Maybe you should direct your comments towards the Christians in the two thirds world who are sending missionaries HERE to the United States. Your view is very ethnocentric. There are more Christians in the rest of the world than America.

 

This doesn't even make any sense.