Challenge for Christians - GO and preach!

[Toxic]

I think its more the case of whoever did the creating, had the image. John 1 says it was Jesus, and when Jesus was chatting with the Pharises he said to them" If you do not believe what Moses wrote how would you believe what I say, since he wrote of me....." but Jesus is not specifically mentioned in the Torah.

And the point you're trying to make is?

[redneck22]

[

 

Oh, now I understand what your intention is. (Santa = Satan and I understand what you are implying to us.)

 

For a moment, I thought you might actually be sincere and maybe not just another brainwashed idiot fundy who trolls the board hoping to get brownie points by converting us back. Sorry for the mistake. I'm just too optimistic sometimes.

 

Taph

 

I am sorry if I offended you, but I thought the Lion's den was a call to "Real christians". I suppose because I dont come from an Amercian environment where you have been so hard done by the "fundys".

 

Anyway I would have thought the idea of santa would mean nothing to you anyway since you would not believe in such "non sense".I have come here to have my faith "shaken" and to see the "doubt" because i want ALL the questions All the evidence All the faith.

 

I dont believe I have tried to "convert us back", my posts are 630,632,640,642,646,649 show me what I have done wrong. This a forum of discussion " the lion's den" i have the lion and the lamb (genesis to revelation). We all have ulterior motives It just comes down to having the right and wrong ones.

 

As for the evidence for Jesus, in astrogical belief the cusp of Aries and Pisces represents the point of exit from mortal life and in the precession of the equinox this point in time comes once every 24,000years, right at the time of Jesus.

 

Anyway if you dont want me here Im happy to go, just let me know and I will leave, and you can all go back to chatting and exchanging ideas amongst yourselves.

[Taphophilia]

Redneck,

 

We welcome anyone here.

 

What I took offense with, was the thinly disguised Santa/Satan, when I said we know the Bible well. We have heard that before. (Satan knows Scripture well.) If you didn't mean it the way it sounded, I apoligize.

 

Actually, Santa did exist.

 

http://www.santas.net/stnicholas.htm

 

It's 25,786 years not 24,000 years. It's based on the Tropical zodiac which is used in Western Astrology. Indian and Arabian astrology have different calculations.

 

When astrology and astronomy were being formalised and written down in the Hellenistic culture of the Roman Empire, most notably by the Alexandrian Greek, Claudius Ptolemy (85-165 CE), the Sun’s position at the equinox was at the border between the constellations of Aries and Pisces.

 

This point was called the First Point of Aries and was therefore determined as the start of the Zodiac and of the "sign" of Aries. Although the equinoctial point has now moved to the beginning of Pisces, and almost to the border with Aquarius, it is still called the First Point of Aries and taken as the start of the Tropical Zodiac.

 

The time you are mentioning is about a century after the supposed birth of Jesus.

 

I don't believe this stuff, but I'm a history buff.

 

Taph

[redneck22]

 

 

 

Taph

 

 

 

Wow, Im most impressed. Is it historically true that Alexander the Great tried to rebuild new foundations for Babylon 3 weeks before he died, and the foundations are still there?

 

Also does the origin of the word mankind line up as I have stated in post 649?

 

I also have a fascination with cemeterys especially reading headstones.

[Checkmate]

With all due respect to all the recent participants in this thread, would you all be so kind as to take any separate discussions elsewhere? Not that this dialogue isn't stimulating, but I can't help but notice that we have veered somewhat into a tangent thread argument.

 

The subject is Challenging Christians to quit being cowards and go into the world and preach. If any Christian wishes to fall into my trap debate this issue ad nauseum, then well and good.

 

I'm not mad. I'm just trying to maintain some semblance of order and continuity. Thank you.

[redneck22]

With all due respect to all the recent participants in this thread, would you all be so kind as to take any separate discussions elsewhere? Not that this dialogue isn't stimulating, but I can't help but notice that we have veered somewhat into a tangent thread argument.

 

The subject is Challenging Christians to quit being cowards and go into the world and preach. If any Christian wishes to fall into my trap debate this issue ad nauseum, then well and good.

 

I'm not mad. I'm just trying to maintain some semblance of order and continuity. Thank you.

 

 

Sorry Mr G,

 

I think its my fault, but it goes to show things left on their own go to chaos.

[NotBlinded]

With all due respect to all the recent participants in this thread, would you all be so kind as to take any separate discussions elsewhere? Not that this dialogue isn't stimulating, but I can't help but notice that we have veered somewhat into a tangent thread argument.

 

The subject is Challenging Christians to quit being cowards and go into the world and preach. If any Christian wishes to fall into my trap debate this issue ad nauseum, then well and good.

 

I'm not mad. I'm just trying to maintain some semblance of order and continuity. Thank you.

 

 

Sorry Mr G,

 

I think its my fault, but it goes to show things left on their own go to chaos.

Only if you believe there is no order in chaos. Where is god? Out there somewhere controlling chaos as a semblence of order? Bahhh....

 

Sorry grinchy...

[redneck22]

[

Only if you believe there is no order in chaos. Where is god? Out there somewhere controlling chaos as a semblence of order? Bahhh....

 

Sorry grinchy...

 

Sorry Mr G

 

I do believe there is order in chaos

[jrmarlin]

CHALLENGE TO CHRISTIANS: GO into the world and preach the gospel!

 

Don't just hide behind your computer screen, debating fruitlessly with us heathens here at Ex-C!

 

Don't simply hide in your comfortable, air-conditioned home or office, arguing religion safely ensconced in the blanket of American free speech!

 

Stop preaching your faith in a country that is FULLY aware of Christianity, and is already dominated by "Christian" thoughts and values!

 

Why don't you hypocritical Christians, quit being cowards, stop making excuses, OBEY your "lord Jesus", and "GO into the WORLD and preach the gospel"!?

 

Isn't THAT the Great Commission? Matthew 28:19-20?

 

Take your Holy Ghost filled self, and your precious "armor of God", and GO into Muslim dominated countries (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Indonesia, etc.) and preach the "good news" to THESE lost souls!

 

Don't hide behind any feeble excuses such as, "But God hasn't called me!"

 

Nonsense! Not only is every believer "called" to do this, but "Jesus" COMMANDED IT! He said "GO into the world", not send out prayer requests and satellite TV transmissions!

 

So…what's the hold up?

 

Go on! Sell everything you have. Quit your jobs. Abandon your families. And follow in the footsteps of "Jesus"! "Glory be to gawd!"

 

Tertullian said, "The blood of the martyrs is seed for the church."

 

Well? Go plant some seeds, you gutless wonders!

 

Of course, NO American Christian worth his cable TV, will EVER do any of this. They love their worldly possessions too much. They don't REALLY believe in "God's" promises of protection, or necessary sacrifice of life when "He" decides it's time for them to die.

 

I am SICK to death of Christians. Always demanding that WE believe "God" and their bible, when it's painfully obvious that even THEY don't believe!

 

And don't tell me about how OTHER Christians have done just what I have proposed. So what? How does that excuse YOUR unbelief and disobedience to the "Great Commission"?

 

Obviously their message did NOT get through, since whole NATIONS are still NOT believing the "message of the cross". It seems to me that YOU Christians still have work to do abroad, and your FEW missionaries and Evangelists are not up to this daunting task alone!

 

Get out there and help them! (I'm sure your Pastor would agree with me!)

 

I want to see it! I want to see an exodus of millions of Christian missionaries, forsake all and go into Muslim dominated nations, where the penalty is DEATH for preaching anything other than Allah, and take one in the heart for the "lord".

 

It's SO easy to pretend you are a "suffering saint" here in the safe confines of America. Where the worse things that you must "suffer" here are people who won't vote YOUR Christian agenda into law, allow prayer in schools, or see the "Ten Commandments" taken out of Roy Moore's courtroom.

 

But it's another thing to preach boldly and fearlessly in the face of people who will horribly KILL you for being a believer in "Christ as King".

 

You Christians have no right and no standing on THIS forum, to preach righteousness to US, when you won't do as Jesus commands YOU.

 

IF you truly believe this God/Jesus stuff, then why delay? What are you waiting for? Stop telling me about the miracles of St. Paul and how he "boldly" proclaimed Christ everywhere HE went.

 

YOU do it!

 

 

 

 

But if you CAN'T see your way to take up this challenge, I fully understand. You're not a "True Christian" ™, but in reality a closet atheist who doesn't REALLY believe any of this bible BS, and you just hang out with church folk for the social benefits. I understand. Truly, I do!

 

I could not agree with you more, Mr. Grinch. I have said exactly the same thing in other venues to Xtians that really were dogmatic about their religion on line but fell like a limp dick when push came to shove. YOU ROCK. I could just kiss myou - even if your picture is a little sinister for me!

 

Can I have your autograph?

[jrmarlin]

I'm sorry, but this is not good enough. Most of you believe that unbelievers are going to fry in hell for eternity, no matter how sweet or kind you are, that is what you believe. Your bible tells you what will happen as a sign that you believe in Jesus and it also gives you promises. You pick and choose the easy stuff and then march in here and everywhere telling people that they will BURN IN ETERNAL HELL for not believing in Jesus because the bible says it's so. Pretty easy to do, isn't it? When you believe the whole bible, no, forget it, when you believe what Jesus says to do and then do it; you're a Christian.

57847[/snapback]

 

 

The twelve apostles did do exactly those things in Mark 16, even though i may not be able to prove so to your satisfaction. The Holy Spirit can do anything through us. You demand miracles, but my God does not take commands from anyone. That is part of being God. Even if you were to see a miracle right in front of your eyes, you would not beleive it. You would explain it away scientifically. Such are the times that we live in.

 

"Living a good christian life" does not include walking around telling people that they will burn in hell.

Never underestimate the power of denial... American Beauty.

 

You are so delusioned you really believe this shite. I can't believe you still sit on this chat board and spout this bullhookie when the message was to get up off your ass and go out there into the world and preach. Noone said, "Hey, tell us about the other people who did Mark 16," It said, "If you don't do Mark 16, you are no more a Xian than I am..."

 

You just can't even get the directions right. Christ on a Crutch... Go - do what you're supposed to do. Quit sitting in your easy chair, spouting off on a stupid computer. Go get your hands 'dirty.' And make it happen!

 

 

The twelve apostles did do exactly those things in Mark 16, even though i may not be able to prove so to your satisfaction. The Holy Spirit can do anything through us. You demand miracles, but my God does not take commands from anyone. That is part of being God. Even if you were to see a miracle right in front of your eyes, you would not beleive it. You would explain it away scientifically. Such are the times that we live in.

 

"Living a good christian life" does not include walking around telling people that they will burn in hell.

57852[/snapback]

 

Excuses, Excuses, nothing but sorry excuses and wiggling out of the uncomfortable...No wiggle room Aaron because there is something in the scripture, and here it is, again that separates this from being just for the "twelve"

 

Mark 16 17 And these signs will accompany those who BELIEVE: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

 

You have zero leg to stand on. Have you even tried, just tried to BOLDLY walk into a terminally ill children's hospital and say "outloud KNOWING THAT GOD hear's you and say "You are HEALED in Jesus name, get up and walk!"? I bet that you haven't even tried, it's because you lack faith in your god's promises.

 

 

 

 

Now THAT was a good one. You are most definitely onto something here!

 

 

The point is just that. COMMANDS AND ASKING are two different things. A command implies that that person/being MUST do the command, a request is just that: a simple question that is not always answered to the questioner's satisfaction.

 

Why do you think i came back here? Ive been absent from these forums for a long time, and i came back b/c you guys either give me some good things to chew on, or you just get pissed and make me roll on the floor laughing. YOU my friend, are the stand-up comedian. And quite frankly, you arent that good at it.

 

Did you just insult, Mr. Grinch? How christian of you... I guess the turn the other cheek thing is a big fraud. Just like Christianity on the whole. Nice example of Christian love. Are you proud of yourself? Does it make you feel more superior or do you feel like one of the gang now, you sinner?

 

Your Xianity is a cheap dime store joke. You kill me. Christian my , cupcake....

 

Bearing false witness. That's a pretty big sin...

 

 

Jesus isn't asking he's telling here, it's "his" will for believers to do this....

 

Mark 16 17 And these signs will accompany those who BELIEVE: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

57866[/snapback]

 

 

First off, i wasnt replying to you. I was replying to TK.

 

God can CHOOSE to do those things through those who believe, and that is the point. Anyone with faith "the size of a mustard seed" can do these things, but not by his own power, it is God who works through him. In that section of Mark, Jesus was rebuking the disciples for their lack of faith. He was telling them what was POSSIBLE, if they just had faith.

 

The text does NOT state that every single Christian will go and heal the sick, etc... Jesus is saying that if we just have faith, then the Holy Spirit can do great things through us.

If you look at the verse, it doesn't say anything about making a choice, cupcake. It says that anyone who believes must go out... etc. etc....

 

I love the way Xians turn their own bible's words into whatever they feel at the moment. When backed into the proverbial wall they get so fussy and start twisting the bible all over the place... "It doesn't mean this... it doesn't mean that...." I love it!

 

Such devotion....

 

 

 

Also, if your missionaries "work frantically" as you say, MAYBE it's because people like YOU are farting around arguing with apostates like ME, instead of GOING AND PREACHING THE GOSPEL to those millions who have NEVER heard! (See how I keep bringing us BACK on topic?

I concur... and second that... So, Aaryn, when's your friggin' plane leaving? Need a ride to the airport?

[Vixentrox]

I'm still waiting to hear the a tale of a trip to North Korea to win converst for Jesus. Guess these Christians too chickenshit and weak in thier faith to attempt it.

[Gobbler]

I'm still waiting to hear the a tale of a trip to North Korea to win converst for Jesus. Guess these Christians too chickenshit and weak in thier faith to attempt it.

 

 

Vixentrox, Congrats on being the 666th reply on this thread! You could be the anti-christ we've all been waiting for! I'll hang out with you anytime!

[jrmarlin]

I'm still waiting to hear the a tale of a trip to North Korea to win converst for Jesus. Guess these Christians too chickenshit and weak in thier faith to attempt it.

 

 

Vixentrox, Congrats on being the 666th reply on this thread! You could be the anti-christ we've all been waiting for! I'll hang out with you anytime!

Gobbler, I am hurt. Why? Because I am the 666th poster on this tread and you don't want to hang out with me... Now this is making the doll sad.

[Gobbler]

I'm still waiting to hear the a tale of a trip to North Korea to win converst for Jesus. Guess these Christians too chickenshit and weak in thier faith to attempt it.

 

 

Vixentrox, Congrats on being the 666th reply on this thread! You could be the anti-christ we've all been waiting for! I'll hang out with you anytime!

Gobbler, I am hurt. Why? Because I am the 666th poster on this tread and you don't want to hang out with me... Now this is making the doll sad.

 

 

My most humble apologies! How do I make the the doll unsad? If that's a word. I do not want to incur your wrath or the doll for that matter! Besides, if you look anything like your avatar, evil could be a whole lot of fun! Sorry Vixentrox, you've been usurped!

[Vixentrox]

Pfft...666 isn't THE number any more, have't you heard?

[Johnny Smith]

The sad thing is that there really are some Christians in the places that you mentioned, preaching about a Jesus that does not exist, and even being persecuted and killed for their beliefs. Of course, one could say the same thing about Hindus being massacred by militant Muslims in northern India. One could also say the same thing about Muslims being massacred by militant Hindus in the same area.

 

My de-conversion is in process. However, just before making the final "step" into my de-conversion, I worked for a worldwide evangelistic association where we heard/saw first hand the violence taking place in the name of religion.

 

I am not advocating this violence, but am simply commenting that there are indeed some Christians outside of our comfortable culture that are suffering in the name of their fantasy god. Likewise, there are people of all nationalities and religion that are having blood spilled in the name of religion.

 

Sad.

 

Johnny Smith

[diggin]

The sad thing is that there really are some Christians in the places that you mentioned, preaching about a Jesus that does not exist, and even being persecuted and killed for their beliefs. Of course, one could say the same thing about Hindus being massacred by militant Muslims in northern India. One could also say the same thing about Muslims being massacred by militant Hindus in the same area.

 

My de-conversion is in process. However, just before making the final "step" into my de-conversion, I worked for a worldwide evangelistic association where we heard/saw first hand the violence taking place in the name of religion.

 

I am not advocating this violence, but am simply commenting that there are indeed some Christians outside of our comfortable culture that are suffering in the name of their fantasy god. Likewise, there are people of all nationalities and religion that are having blood spilled in the name of religion.

 

Sad.

 

Johnny Smith

 

I don't have a specific response to your sadness, Johnny.... but I agree with lots of your sentiments, and would like to enter the discussion about evangelism from an entirely different perspective. Think of me as a Christian who is joining the jeering against missionary work ... so would like to be a "friend of the court" of those holding Christianity's feet to the flames for its talk about preaching, without a proportional walk.

 

I am a Christian (that is, a person who thinks that Jesus is the son of God and the savior of all the world), but I think that ...

 

1. God knew in advance that the main message of Christianity would get corrupted into "turn or burn", and that huge apostate "churches" would imagine that they were needed to "reach the world for Christ". (example: Wheat and Tares parable)

 

2. Wherever mainstream Christianity has been strongest, resistance to all Christian preaching is the greatest. This is because most Christians are a terrible advertisement ... don't fit the claims at all. (evidence: surveys published by missionary societies showing the cost per baptism ranges from about $1000 in a few places where Christianity has not made many inroads, to almost a Million bucks in Europe and about $700,000 in the U.S. And Barna says 20 million people have left mainstream Christianity in the U.S. since 2000.)

 

3. This is now the Post-Christian era because of the failure of institutional Christianity to deliver as advertised... where "Christians" have had the most political power, the greatest abuses have occurred, such as in the dark ages, colonial Africa and South America, "christian" ethnic cleansing of indigenous peoples on every continent, and the institution of slavery worldwide but especially as practiced by "Christian" powers in Europe around the golden triangle of Africa, the Americas, and Europe.

 

4. The "aftertaste" of Judaism and Christianity, however, has not been all bad, because the liberating, personal accountability, health, and equality-fostering ideas of the Bible seem to have equipped the people (not necessarily the governments) of those areas where the Bible has been published to upgrade their personal freedom and commerce. I don't think it's an accident that the first nations to develop economically and democratically had a Judeo-Christian heritage... and to the extent that those principles have been followed, some good things have happened -- along with a whole bunch of abuses that I believe Christian people and governments are now in the process of being judged and punished for.

 

5. True Christianity is such a tiny enterprise that it can hardly be found anywhere on the pages of history. Apostate Christianity enjoys all the press, but here and there a pure-hearted person is anonymously learning to be humble, righteous, and loving. The trend toward mass-defection from "Christianity" is actually part of the plan, predicted in the Bible and perfectly logical for everyone who has joined the exodus. (The litany of evils that are laid at mainstream Christianity's doorstep can be read in Revelation chapter 18)

 

6. The thesis of this debate is correct, that most Christians are too materialistic to obey what Jesus said, and if they're not, they may be wise enough to realize that a new religious reality has set in, and the goal of converting the world was never Jesus' expectation... he was calling obedient disciples to find other disciples from among all nations... not expecting that their message would be widely received. And today's highest goal for serious Christians, as I read the Bible, is to abandon historical Christianity, not try to expand it or repair it.

 

7. I do not believe the ideas that are used to support mainstream preaching, either: that one must convert now or be tossed into eternal torment; I believe that all people will ultimately have a full opportunity to experience real honest to goodness miracles such as the resurrection of all people who have ever lived, the elimination of all disease, the youthful transformation of all old people, the solving of all worldwide ecological and geopolitical problems through a combination of human voluntary cooperation and the sweet spirit of God at work in quiet ways across centuries of gradual improvement.

 

Therefore, I agree with much of your challenge but have now given you lots of silly-sounding ideas to poke fun at. No problem, I'll probably surprise you with how much of your harangue I agree with, and can even find to be anticipated by prophets who decry the same kinds of conditions 2000 years ago and more.

[chefranden]

Lukewarm Christians and Hypocrisy are synonymous.

 

You seem to think that in order to preach the "Good news" it is necessary to go into other countries. I would suggest that America is in just as much need of evangelism as other countries. It IS possible to be a witness in your home country.

 

Jesus himself hated hypocrites. Witness the whole Jesus-and-the-tax-collectors-in-the-temple story.

 

No point in replying to this guy now.

 

But I just want to make it clear what it means to be a missionary in the States. Back when I was a preacher, I was a "Church Planter" i.e. a missionary in the States. My mission as I chose to accept was to preach the gospel to the heathen Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, and occasional Baptists of Northern Wisconsin. I was to round them up and get them Immersed into Jesus Christ proper like, and get them to take the Lord's Supper with grape juice once a week! Thus they would be saved and be restored to the primitive and pristine Church as described in Acts. I did not risk martyrdom in my mission, but I did suffer a great deal of indifference from the targets of my appeal.

[chefranden]

2. Wherever mainstream Christianity has been strongest, resistance to all Christian preaching is the greatest. This is because most Christians are a terrible advertisement ... don't fit the claims at all. (evidence: surveys published by missionary societies showing the cost per baptism ranges from about $1000 in a few places where Christianity has not made many inroads, to almost a Million bucks in Europe and about $700,000 in the U.S. And Barna says 20 million people have left mainstream Christianity in the U.S. since 2000.)

 

Could it be that being close to Christianity makes the bullshit more obvious, and therefore less appealing?

 

This is because most Christians are a terrible advertisement Well I can't help but agree, but could you explain this to us in the light of John 17? Can you explain why God prays to himself for the opposite of this and then doesn't answer his own prayer? Could it be that Jesus/god didn't have enough faith to hear his own prayer and answer it in the affirmative?

 

As a side question: why should I believe that God answers prayer, when he doesn't even bother to answer his own prayer?

[R. S. Martin]

Diggin, the possitive stuff you attribute to religion probably came from the skeptical philosophers and thinkers of the enlightenment. A glance at history informs me that the missionary, explorer, fur trader, slave trader, gold miner, and war lord pushed back the boundaries of the known world hand in hand. This was mainline churches like RC and Anglican because most others did not yet exist in the early days.

[Euthyphro's Thorn]

This is now the Post-Christian era because of the failure of institutional Christianity to deliver as advertised...

If this is the Post-Christian era (that sure sounds good, by the way), it's only because the majority of people are finally seeing Christianity for the myth it is.

 

I don't think it's an accident that the first nations to develop economically and democratically had a Judeo-Christian heritage...

Two words. Ancient Rome.

 

Edit for correction. Economic development, yes. Democracies, no. Not only was Ancient Rome not a democracy, but there's a reason why so many people left England for the "New World."

[Euthyphro's Thorn]

I had a thought last night after logging off. If I'm not mistaken, Egypt was quite developed for their time, perhaps thousands of years before the Hebrews hit the scene. So no, the first nation to develop economically was neither Judeo-Christian nor democratic.

 

I also meant to thank Diggin for diggin up this thread that hadn't been posted in for two years, because I wouldn't have seen it otherwise. I've only read the first 5 pages and yesterday's posts, but I'm guessing it's safe to say no one ever accepted the challenge?

[dunany77]

...I'm guessing it's safe to say no one ever accepted the challenge?

This challenge will never be accepted by any xian reading this thread, because that means they have a computer, they live in a warm home with running water, electricity, food, clothing and go to nice happy churches where the pastors/priests give them nice fuzzy sermons about doing good deeds, self help crap, marriage stuff and how to pray better.

 

Nobody in North America preaches that xians should go preach the word in North Korea or Iran because they would die. And dead xians can't TITHE now can they!!!

 

I submit that ALL xians in America are cowards for not obeying the commands of jesus christ their lord. And they know it!

"GO AND TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM."

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the

name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have

commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto

the end of the world." Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20 KJV)

 

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith

and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will

be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name

they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes

with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all;

they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Mark 16:14-18

 

"KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."

"If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15 KJV)

[diggin]

This is now the Post-Christian era because of the failure of institutional Christianity to deliver as advertised...

If this is the Post-Christian era (that sure sounds good, by the way), it's only because the majority of people are finally seeing Christianity for the myth it is.

 

I don't think it's an accident that the first nations to develop economically and democratically had a Judeo-Christian heritage...

Two words. Ancient Rome.

 

Edit for correction. Economic development, yes. Democracies, no. Not only was Ancient Rome not a democracy, but there's a reason why so many people left England for the "New World."

 

 

You're right. I overstated the historic record, and it's not that relevant to my point anyway. Besides, a lot of the cultures that haven't won the competition in the last millennia have lost to "Christian" guns. "God is on the side of the fat cannons" as Barbara Tuchman quotes a French general, as I recall.

[diggin]

2. Wherever mainstream Christianity has been strongest, resistance to all Christian preaching is the greatest. This is because most Christians are a terrible advertisement ... don't fit the claims at all. (evidence: surveys published by missionary societies showing the cost per baptism ranges from about $1000 in a few places where Christianity has not made many inroads, to almost a Million bucks in Europe and about $700,000 in the U.S. And Barna says 20 million people have left mainstream Christianity in the U.S. since 2000.)

 

Could it be that being close to Christianity makes the bullshit more obvious, and therefore less appealing?

 

This is because most Christians are a terrible advertisement Well I can't help but agree, but could you explain this to us in the light of John 17? Can you explain why God prays to himself for the opposite of this and then doesn't answer his own prayer? Could it be that Jesus/god didn't have enough faith to hear his own prayer and answer it in the affirmative?

 

As a side question: why should I believe that God answers prayer, when he doesn't even bother to answer his own prayer?

 

Yes, the historic record of mainstream Christianity, and all the visible bad fruitage, are there for all to see. In the language of Revelation, "the grapes [of the 'vine of the earth'] are rotten". (ripe in some translations, but that's the thought). Obviously, I'm agreeing with the reformers that Babylon and Jezebel equal mainstream Christianity. Mother church and daughter churches, harlots all of them, who made the earth drunk with the doctrine of hypocrisy.

 

John 17 is a great acid test... anything that claims to be Christian and doesn't fit that standard ain't what it claims.

 

And I agree with your implication if Jesus is God, the prayer is a farce. I am not a trinitarian.

 

But I do think and have observed in a variety of denominational and extradenominational circles, small groups of people who do demonstrate the kind of fruitage Jesus described and is looking for. Again, an insignificant number that gives the lie to the "great swelling words" of arrogance and hubris that the church has been croaking for centuries now.

 

 

 

Think back to the first world war. Boy, did that expose the empty claims of the church... you had nation states, each with their own titular religious head, and each claiming to crown their respective kings by "divine right". And they all went to war against each other, praying to the same God to deliver them. (a la Mark Twain's War Prayer). And what happened? Within 5 to 10 years every one of those monarchies was replaced with a secular democratic government (or "dictatorship of the proletariat"), with varying amounts of socialism sprinkled in. The grandiose Christian claims of the previous centuries were exposed and smashed by the reality of unfolding events.