Kuroikaze Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Are you saying all Christian charities do this? Secondly, is it not true that most people who need charity need more than just physical material for their needs? If so, what do you tell them as an atheist when they feel depressed and without hope? What would you say to encourage them? Well the first thing I would NOT tell a depressed person is that when they die they can go to happy land. That sounds like a recipe for suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 What is the foundation for these principles? What does the humanist do when a country does not want to affirm the human equality? They bomb them and force them to subservience and tell them what to do. The humanist organizations try to convince countries to change, without violence. If the country won't, the humanist accepts their autonomy, but of course, they're not happy about it. They recognize that a country got the right to their own laws and principles. And there are ways of sanctioning or forcing the hand of countries too. Boycott, embargo, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 i don't know of any. Then Zeus makes people good, and only if they believe in Zeus can they be good. What historical evidence do you have that shows that Zeus existed? You mean that it's part of your argument? I thought the argument was that since there are no atheist-help-organizations, therefore Christians are good people and Christianity is true. Isn't that where you were going with this? Since there are no help organizations established on the principles of azeusism, then zeusism must be something good. It's a false dilemma. It doesn't matter of someone started an help organization based on non-belief or not, it doesn't change the rest of the picture. The rest of the picture is that there are thousands of non-Christian help organizations, so Christians DO NOT have the patent on altruism. You're stacking the argument. I agree that people can base there doing on superstitious things. I never claimed that non-Christian help organizations don't do good. They do. However, if charity was esentially started by Christians in the early centuries. Its good to see non-christians involved in charity. It was Christianity that first gave the world true charity because of the teachings of Christ. It motivated many people in the name of Christ to sacrifice greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Are you saying all Christian charities do this? Secondly, is it not true that most people who need charity need more than just physical material for their needs? If so, what do you tell them as an atheist when they feel depressed and without hope? What would you say to encourage them? Well the first thing I would NOT tell a depressed person is that when they die they can go to happy land. That sounds like a recipe for suicide. But what would you say then? Secondly, many people who have heard the Christian message of hope have had their lives turned around for the better. What would be the message of atheism that could do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I agree that people can base there doing on superstitious things. I never claimed that non-Christian help organizations don't do good. They do. However, if charity was esentially started by Christians in the early centuries. Its good to see non-christians involved in charity. It was Christianity that first gave the world true charity because of the teachings of Christ. It motivated many people in the name of Christ to sacrifice greatly. Bull shit, people have been charitable in civilizations where Christianity never even existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 If you go back to the Roman empire you don't see them educating the poor. Secondly, a lot of private schools today are Christian and do a far better job at education than the secular schools. Also home schooled kids is also done predominately by Chrisian parents and these kids usually do better than those in public schools. There are many different societies and ways of approaching education. If you want to go back even further, prior to the Roman Empire, you will find some cultures that valued education as much as we do. 1550 BCE. - Egyptian education In the ancient times education was just as important as it is now, especially in ancient Egypt. In Egypt all the children received an education. They would attend school and learn all the necessary skills and traits there. It was the parents responsibility to teach there children there traits so that they could continue to do that once there parents could no longer complete there duties. They were taught morals and ethics and the things that the Egyptians thought most important for a child to learn so that they could become a good citizen and that they could be a good civilian for society. Your grammar could use a little work. "Also home schooled kids is also done..." Are you home schooled? I am not convinced that home schooling is necessarily better overall. Let's test knowledge of evolution between home schooled kids and those taught in secular (public) schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I agree that people can base there doing on superstitious things. I never claimed that non-Christian help organizations don't do good. They do. However, if charity was esentially started by Christians in the early centuries. Its good to see non-christians involved in charity. It was Christianity that first gave the world true charity because of the teachings of Christ. It motivated many people in the name of Christ to sacrifice greatly. Bull shit, people have been charitable in civilizations where Christianity never even existed. You might want to read up on how ancient Rome practiced charity. There was no welfare system for the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 But what would you say then? Secondly, many people who have heard the Christian message of hope have had their lives turned around for the better. What would be the message of atheism that could do that? I happened to be very depressed while I was a christian and I recovered from it after becoming an atheist. I was actually suicidal because I thought life sucked and if I ended I would go to heaven where things were better. part of why I hated everything was because I felt out of control, when I realized that there was no god, and no one pulling the strings, I realized that I was solely responsible for making my life better, and if I wanted a better life I would have to make it myself. I think that message is far more hopeful then some silly pie in the sky. That would be my message, if things are bad, the MAKE THEM BETTER. Do what you can and just accept the things you can not change cause no amount of begging god is going to change those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 But what would you say then? Secondly, many people who have heard the Christian message of hope have had their lives turned around for the better. What would be the message of atheism that could do that? Atheism has no message! How many times do we have to tell you? Then it has nothing to offer of any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 You might want to read up on how ancient Rome practiced charity. There was no welfare system for the poor. Did I mention Rome? is that the only civilization that counts? The Romans were kind of jerks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Then it has nothing to offer of any good. Do you think that truth is not good simply for truths sake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 But what would you say then? Secondly, many people who have heard the Christian message of hope have had their lives turned around for the better. What would be the message of atheism that could do that? I happened to be very depressed while I was a christian and I recovered from it after becoming an atheist. I was actually suicidal because I thought life sucked and if I ended I would go to heaven where things were better. part of why I hated everything was because I felt out of control, when I realized that there was no god, and no one pulling the strings, I realized that I was solely responsible for making my life better, and if I wanted a better life I would have to make it myself. I think that message is far more hopeful then some silly pie in the sky. That would be my message, if things are bad, the MAKE THEM BETTER. Do what you can and just accept the things you can not change cause no amount of begging god is going to change those things. Its good to hear you pulled out of it. What would you say to parents who lost their 5 year old son to some sickness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Then it has nothing to offer of any good. Do you think that truth is not good simply for truths sake? Sometimes the truth can be painful and some truths are not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Then it has nothing to offer of any good. It's not a religion! It's not supposed to offer anything! What does it do for you then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I agree that people can base there doing on superstitious things. I never claimed that non-Christian help organizations don't do good. They do. However, if charity was esentially started by Christians in the early centuries. Its good to see non-christians involved in charity. It was Christianity that first gave the world true charity because of the teachings of Christ. It motivated many people in the name of Christ to sacrifice greatly. It's not quite true. I have a some information of pre-Christian charities. There were examples of it in ancient Greece, 300 BC. Look into Isocrates' quote about the Athenian taxation. Or Hippocrates public work. So no, charity was not invented by Christians. And in all honesty, the charity we see today is fairly modern and not a long standing tradition in Christian circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Then it has nothing to offer of any good. Do you think that truth is not good simply for truths sake? Sometimes the truth can be painful and some truths are not good. Apply this answer to your own question in post #318 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Then it has nothing to offer of any good. Do you think that truth is not good simply for truths sake? Sometimes the truth can be painful and some truths are not good. Apply this answer to your own question in post #318 My answer would give them hope while i don't see how an atheist could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 You might want to read up on how ancient Rome practiced charity. There was no welfare system for the poor. That's a strawman. The world didn't come into existence in Rome. There were societies before Rome. There even existed a democracy in Athens long before Rome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I agree that people can base there doing on superstitious things. I never claimed that non-Christian help organizations don't do good. They do. However, if charity was esentially started by Christians in the early centuries. Its good to see non-christians involved in charity. It was Christianity that first gave the world true charity because of the teachings of Christ. It motivated many people in the name of Christ to sacrifice greatly. It's not quite true. I have a some information of pre-Christian charities. There were examples of it in ancient Greece, 300 BC. Look into Isocrates' quote about the Athenian taxation. Or Hippocrates public work. So no, charity was not invented by Christians. And in all honesty, the charity we see today is fairly modern and not a long standing tradition in Christian circles. Did the Greeks have charities for the poor? Was it widespread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 You might want to read up on how ancient Rome practiced charity. There was no welfare system for the poor. That's a strawman. The world didn't come into existence in Rome. There were societies before Rome. There even existed a democracy in Athens long before Rome. I'm using ancient Rome as an example that there we no there was no welfare system for the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Then it has nothing to offer of any good. No one here became an atheist because they chose to or that it offered anything. So what's your point? I think I speak for the rest when I say that you become an atheist more after the fact. First you lose your faith, then you become agnostic, and some become atheists. So it's not picked as an option with better offers. It's more of a default position when everything else is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 [ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Then it has nothing to offer of any good. It's not a religion! It's not supposed to offer anything! What does it do for you then? The same thing my lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy does for me. So you are saying it does nothing for you? If so why embrace this? Why embrace something that offers you no hope in this world? Why embrace something that destroys any hope beyond the grave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Did the Greeks have charities for the poor? Was it widespread? Yes. "That no citizen was destitute of the necessaries of life, or was reduced to the shame of the State, to beg his bread of those whom he accosted." -- Isocrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I'm using ancient Rome as an example that there we no there was no welfare system for the poor. Just like during the dark ages under the rule of the Roman Catholic Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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