What Good Has Atheism Done?

[Guest amazed]

I'm arguing that if a person believes in hell and can find himself there by living a corrupt life then that person has at least one good reason not to engage in evil if he believes such a place exist. I think many people do evil because they think they will never be caught.

 

Without your understanding of Hell and Jesus, would you be one of these?

 

Phanta

If i didn't believe in hell or judgement i could see myself cheating and lying more. Why not? If there is no judgement why not?

[SEEtheScorn]

That's amazing. Simply amazing.

 

Sooo... why are you here?

 

How about you ask God if He's there. Then when he doesn't answer, you'll have all the reason to do whatever the hell you want?

[ContraBardus]

If it is true there are rewards for doing good after this life then this would be a powerful incentive to do good and avoid doing evil. Good is not just limited to needy people (although we are all needy to some degree) but to all people. As for the Christian reasons to do good there has been nothing like it in the past 2000 years.

Using that logic, the Muslims would be the people who do most good. They are supposed to add up good and bad things during the day, and the number of good things should exceed the number of bad.

 

The problem I see is, what is "good" and what is "bad"? God commanded Israel to commit genocide, was that a good thing? So genocide in the name of God is good?

 

So define what "good" is, please.

The problem with atheism is that there are not standards of good or bad. What criteria does an atheist use for what is good or bad except his own thinking?

When God commanded Israel to commit genocide what was the reason he did so? What was so evil about the Cananites (?) that it was required to exterminate them completely? Sometimes some races are so wicked and corrupt that they must be destroyed or they will corrupt other nations.

From a Christian perspective good would be defined as that is found in the nature of God i.e. mercy, truth, compassion etc.

 

Except none of those things are purely the nature of God. In fact, none of them really have any relation to Christian God. They are all completely separate ideas.

 

God lies in the Bible, he does many unmerciful things, the very concept of Hell is the antithesis of merciful, and is not particularly compassionate.

 

Christian God is a human analog just like any other God. He gets angry, throws tantrums, and does numerous things that are the complete opposite of what you portray him as here. He gives punishment that does not fit the crime quite often. He's vain and needy, requiring worship and praise.

 

If God's only measure of how good a person I am is how much I believe in him then he's not really worthy of worship to begin with.

 

Again, this is a completely false dilemma to begin with. Atheist do have standards of morality, they just aren't based on scripture, but rather upbringing and the standards of the society they live in. Just like Chiristians.

 

The truth of the matter is that you're not living by the standards God presented in the Bible at all. No one today does. It's just a false assertion that your morals have any basis in the Bible. They don't, you just pick scriptures that back the moral standards and ethics you already have based on the society you live in.

 

If you were to end up back in the early days of Christianity, and tried to live or promote the Church as you see it today, they would stone you to death, if you were lucky.

 

Christianity today bears no resemblance to what it was then. It has evolved and conformed to today's society, today's standards of ethics and morals, not the other way around.

 

The truth is, that you've got it backwards. Your morals are not based on Christian beliefs, your Christian beliefs are based on today's morals and ethical standards. Just as the early Church, and the Church throughout history had it's morals based on the ethical and moral standards of the time.

 

That's the thing about the Bible. It can be used to promote any moral or ethical standing. Simply by picking the right verses that fit the situation and placing emphasis on those as opposed to others that do not live up to today's standards.

 

Take the Church's stance on homosexuals. They consider it a Sin, yet they do not consider shaving, eating shellfish, eating pork, or any meat that has not been drained of blood immoral or sinful. Yet all of those things are explicitly stated as equally wrong and just as bad as Homosexuality in the Bible. The Faith changed to fit today's standards, if those things are fine now, why not being gay too? All of them are mentioned -more often- as immoral abominations [never as 'sins' though, and neither is being Gay].

 

Christians today have no qualms about taking quotes from their own book out of context and over analyzing them to fit today's standards and their own beliefs. Yet are quick to cry out that others do so when they point those facts out. It's more than a bit hypocritical.

 

They go on about how things are 'metaphorical' in nature, yet fail to account that the early Christians in no way saw them that way, not until very recently. They were never meant to be metaphorical, but always literal in nature. It's just the failure of those things to fit known evidence and modern logical and rational standards forces them to push them into that area.

 

You're not really following the Bible or using it to guide your morals, but are rather using it to support the morals and ethics you already have. You just don't notice it, because the Church uses poor rationalization to sway the opinions of believers towards the conclusion that the opposite of reality is true, and that they are indeed getting their morals from the Bible instead.

 

Neither the Bible, nor God really provides any sort of ethical or moral blueprint to follow. It's just a mash of many philosophical ideas with many varying and often conflicting ideas that can be sifted through to fit the standards you already hold or that your society/upbringing have already given you.

[Ouroboros]

If i didn't believe in hell or judgement i could see myself cheating and lying more. Why not? If there is no judgement why not?

Then it is settled:

 

Your statement shows that you have a bad character and you really need religion to keep you good. While we have good character and do not need religion to be good.

[belladonna]

Christianity has a long long record of providing charity and education to countless people through the centuries. What have any atheistic institutions done to help the poor and sick through the centuries?

 

Matthew 6:1-4

 

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them, otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

 

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily, I say unto you, they have their reward.

 

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.

 

That thine alms may be in secret, and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

 

*******

 

And there's the crux; perhaps the reason you don't know of any atheists who do charity is because we follow your Lord and Savior's advice better than you do.

[Guest amazed]

Genocide is never necessary, though occasionally war is, this is not the same thing at all. we didn't go out of our way to kill children, or turn the virgin women in to sex slaves. Though the bible god commands both in the OT.

 

The fact that you can even defend this kind of behavior shows that you have given up your own sense of morals. You just believe what you are told to believe, you are not more a moral agent than a robot is.

Why don't you give the specific passages in the Bible that you thinks says what you are claiming? Maybe we can see something here that you might not have noticed.

Keep in mind the following:

 

1. The God of the Old testament does not exist. If I express the opinion that "HE" is cruel, I mean the description of this fanciful being is cruel.

2. The Bible itself is a collection of mythology with no more connection than the Koran, Rig Veda, or ancient mesopotamian writings predating the Bible.

 

Now on to the "passages."

 

Deut 7:1-2, 9:3,

Num 21

Num 25:17,31:1-2, 7, 15-18 (the bolded is particularly horrific. Captives slaughtered including infants, boys and women)

Joshua 6:21

Joshua 8:24-26

Joshua 10:32-40

Joshua 11:11-12

(and more - too disgusting to read)

Judges 21:11-12

1 Sam 15:1-9

 

There's more, of course.

On what grounds are you asserting that the God of the Old Testament does not exist? Secondly, there are countless scholars who do not believe that the Bible itself is a collection of mythologies. That has never been demonstrated in all the studies I have seen. For example the gospels themselves are not even classified as myths or legends by scholars. Just because something predates the Bible in some area does not mean the Bible is a myth.

Let’s take Joshua. Do you know why Joshua did this? Not e what scholars say about these nations:

According to the Old Testament, the Canaanites and other tribes in the land widely practiced child sacrifice, incest, bestiality, and other behaviors that almost everyone in history, including today, rightly regard as unspeakably, grossly immoral. For this reason this nation needed to be exterminated.

[Guest amazed]

Christianity has a long long record of providing charity and education to countless people through the centuries. What have any atheistic institutions done to help the poor and sick through the centuries?

 

Matthew 6:1-4

 

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them, otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

 

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily, I say unto you, they have their reward.

 

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.

 

That thine alms may be in secret, and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

 

*******

 

And there's the crux; perhaps the reason you don't know of any atheists who do charity is because we follow your Lord and Savior's advice better than you do.

I don't doubt atheist do charity. That's not the issue. The issue is: does an atheistic worldview lead to charity on its own merits?

[Ouroboros]

According to the Old Testament, the Canaanites and other tribes in the land widely practiced child sacrifice, incest, bestiality, and other behaviors that almost everyone in history, including today, rightly regard as unspeakably, grossly immoral. For this reason this nation needed to be exterminated.

So the solution was to kill them all, including their children? Seriously. If there (and I say "if", because I read some archeological report that these accusations have not been substantiated) were child-sacrifice going on, then why kill the children and women too? Donkey, horses, and all the cattle as well. Burn down their houses and beat the crap out of the kittens. All in the name of the vengeful and hateful God called YHWH.

 

How sick and twisted is that?

[Guest amazed]

If i didn't believe in hell or judgement i could see myself cheating and lying more. Why not? If there is no judgement why not?

Then it is settled:

 

Your statement shows that you have a bad character and you really need religion to keep you good. While we have good character and do not need religion to be good.

Were all bad. What you don't have in atheism itself as non-belief is any reason to do good. That's why we don't see any atheistic institutions down through the centuries that have benefited mankind. At least i haven't seen any and i have not read of any here. If you know of any atheistic institutions based on atheistic philosphy then i would like to see it.

[Guest amazed]

According to the Old Testament, the Canaanites and other tribes in the land widely practiced child sacrifice, incest, bestiality, and other behaviors that almost everyone in history, including today, rightly regard as unspeakably, grossly immoral. For this reason this nation needed to be exterminated.

So the solution was to kill them all, including their children? Seriously. If there (and I say "if", because I read some archeological report that these accusations have not been substantiated) were child-sacrifice going on, then why kill the children and women too? Donkey, horses, and all the cattle as well. Burn down their houses and beat the crap out of the kittens. All in the name of the vengeful and hateful God called YHWH.

 

How sick and twisted is that?

Did this action by Israel stop the spread of these horrible practices?

[Mike D]

Christianity has a long long record of providing charity and education to countless people through the centuries. What have any atheistic institutions done to help the poor and sick through the centuries?

Who cares? Atheism isn't a lifestyle like Christianity it's a disbelief in god(s).

[Ouroboros]

I don't doubt atheist do charity. That's not the issue. The issue is: does an atheistic worldview lead to charity on its own merits?

Then we first must establish what an "atheistic worldview" is. (And it has been said 10 times that atheism isn't a worldview.)

 

Does it include the facts of evolution and biology? Then yes, an "atheistic worldview" could lead to charity on its own merits, because biologically we do feel good by giving.

 

(Which has been said three times in this thread already)

[Shyone]

If i didn't believe in hell or judgement i could see myself cheating and lying more. Why not? If there is no judgement why not?

Then it is settled:

 

Your statement shows that you have a bad character and you really need religion to keep you good. While we have good character and do not need religion to be good.

Hans, I fear you are right, but...

 

amazed, you haven't really thought this through.

 

Lying. Lie to people, then ask them for a favor. Lie to them, and see if they will be your partner. Lie to them, and see if they will trust you with their money, their children, or their lives. Who will want to be with you? Your livelihood, your friendships and your reputation will be ruined. Move to another city to start over? Lie anew and reap the same.

 

Cheating. Cheat on your spouse, and you may get a disease. Cheat on your spouse, and she will cry, and maybe leave you. Cheat on your spouse, and you may lose your children, or if you don't have any, you may lose the opportunity to have them and pass on your genes. Try to date another woman who knows the story of your wife's heartache, and you will be rejected. You may have to leave town to start over again, and if you do the same in your new town, you will never be truly loved.

 

Good behavior begets good relationships which lead to all of the benefits of life.

 

Why do Christians lie and cheat? Because they are "forgiven"?

[SEEtheScorn]

According to the Old Testament, the Canaanites and other tribes in the land widely practiced child sacrifice, incest, bestiality, and other behaviors that almost everyone in history, including today, rightly regard as unspeakably, grossly immoral. For this reason this nation needed to be exterminated.

 

That above statement is why Christianity is so bad. You try to find reasons to rationalize the slaughter of women and children due to their "evilness." Although nowhere did God give the Canaanite people a chance. He just said to slaughter all of them.

 

Did you read the passages? Have you ever even read the Bible all the way through? Do you even know of any "scholars" by which you speak?

[Ouroboros]

Were all bad. What you don't have in atheism itself as non-belief is any reason to do good.

Again, for the second time, did you read my earlier response to that question? I do have extremely good reasons to do good. But if you do not listen or read the answers, then you will keep on asking the question. Listen and learn instead of blindfolding yourself.

 

That's why we don't see any atheistic institutions down through the centuries that have benefited mankind.

Are you an idiot? I gave you a list. There are plenty of organizations. Are you dumb or just a troll?

 

At least i haven't seen any and i have not read of any here.

You probably are one of the dumbest posters we've ever had here. I listed UNICEF, WHO, Doctors for peace. And there are others.

 

You must be a robot with ID10T error printing on your forehead.

 

If you know of any atheistic institutions based on atheistic philosphy then i would like to see it.

OH, that's what you're asking. Atheistic philosophy does not exist. There is not specific philosophy plainly atheistic. Atheism is just straight out of the gate nothing but No-Belief-In-God. In other words, every organization which is NOT based on religious belief is an atheistic organization.

 

Did this action by Israel stop the spread of these horrible practices?

I don't think it did, since they kept on going at it over and over again. Killing women and children because they had "displeased God."

 

It's a very good excuse for the rulers to use God when they go to war. Every extreme religious individual backs it up and will die willingly during the massacre. So pleasant. So nice. So good. Isn't it? Until you're on the other end of the stick...

[ContraBardus]

On what grounds are you asserting that the God of the Old Testament does not exist? Secondly, there are countless scholars who do not believe that the Bible itself is a collection of mythologies. That has never been demonstrated in all the studies I have seen. For example the gospels themselves are not even classified as myths or legends by scholars. Just because something predates the Bible in some area does not mean the Bible is a myth.

 

On what grounds do you claim that the God of Abraham does exist?

 

There's no such thing as evidence of something not existing. You cannot prove a negative. We do not need to prove that yours or any God does not exist.

 

The burden of proof lies on those making claims. It's on your shoulders. There is no burden on the shoulders of those who ask for verification or evidence of a claim.

 

You need to prove your God, we don't need to disprove it.

 

Of course Christian scholars don't classify it as myth. Biblical scholar Christians are biased by their own faith. There's no way to avoid it. Secular scholars do indeed classify the Bible as historical fiction and myth.

 

The Bible is in the exact same category as any other religious text. It's in the same group as the Quaran, the Book of Mormon, the Vedas, the Sutra, or any other scripture text that exists. It does not have it's own special place, and is not counted as a historical manuscript in any way.

 

The Bible is a myth because it contains a great deal of absurd claims. Would you really believe the stories in it if they were presented to you today as if they were true and happened yesterday? Even with no evidence of any kind to support the claim as a true one except a single book, and other papers and documents written about the event that only use accounts from that book?

 

I seriously doubt you would believe that a man walked on water or turned water into wine if it was said to happen yesterday, and had no evidence to support it aside from a baseless claim with no other evidence in one single book.

 

That's all the evidence Biblical claims have. Nothing but hearsay accounts usually sourced from the Bible itself.

 

Why is something that supposedly happened 2,000 years ago any different?

 

Why does it not need to meet the same standards of proof and evidence as something that happened in today's world? What's the excuse for belief?

 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence on it's own, but absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence when there should be evidence of something and there isn't.

 

I don't doubt atheist do charity. That's not the issue. The issue is: does an atheistic worldview lead to charity on its own merits?

 

What other reason would Atheists have for charity other than the rewards on it's own merits?

 

You've already clearly stated that you don't perform charity on it's own merits. Atheist have no other reason to do so. They do not believe in rewards in the afterlife or that there is a God to please.

 

Your own earlier arguments undo this assertion. You -don't- do charitable things for the merits of charity on it's own. You've already said so.

 

It's a bit silly to accuse others of having -better- standards than your own. We've got no reason to be charitable other than it's own merits. That's enough for us, why not you?

[Kuroikaze]

 

Why don't you give the specific passages in the Bible that you thinks says what you are claiming? Maybe we can see something here that you might not have noticed.

 

In other words you are going to correct the poor stupid atheist who couldn't posibly understand the bible.

 

I majored in religious studies so spare me your drivel, you cannot white wash genocide and sexual slavery, there is not justification for it.

 

I noticed someone already provided you with several verses, but why should we need to, you are such a biblical expert why are you making us do your research. I've read the passages in question hundreds of times, and you have apparently never read it but you expect to see "what I missed" in a few minutes? How full of yourself are you?

[Kuroikaze]

According to the Old Testament, the Canaanites and other tribes in the land widely practiced child sacrifice, incest, bestiality, and other behaviors that almost everyone in history, including today, rightly regard as unspeakably, grossly immoral. For this reason this nation needed to be exterminated.

So the solution was to kill them all, including their children? Seriously. If there (and I say "if", because I read some archeological report that these accusations have not been substantiated) were child-sacrifice going on, then why kill the children and women too? Donkey, horses, and all the cattle as well. Burn down their houses and beat the crap out of the kittens. All in the name of the vengeful and hateful God called YHWH.

 

How sick and twisted is that?

Did this action by Israel stop the spread of these horrible practices?

 

I am speechless..... the utter stupidity of the argument you are making makes my brain hurt.

 

To stop OTHER cultures from killing children, god order Israel to kill children, thus defeating his own goal? are you kidding me?

 

Why not just take the rational answer, which is that Israel, like most ancient cultures did not care what happened to people outside their own culture. Murder was only immoral if you killed someone within the bounds of your culture, those outside were barely human.

[florduh]

Nowhere will you find in the Bible this kind of thing of denigrating another human being.

 

You make my point. Perhaps YOU didn't find this message in the Bible but OTHERS DO.

 

Now, who has the correct interpretation? I know, YOU DO!

 

Bugger off.

[Shyone]

 

On what grounds are you asserting that the God of the Old Testament does not exist? Secondly, there are countless scholars who do not believe that the Bible itself is a collection of mythologies. That has never been demonstrated in all the studies I have seen. For example the gospels themselves are not even classified as myths or legends by scholars. Just because something predates the Bible in some area does not mean the Bible is a myth.

Let’s take Joshua. Do you know why Joshua did this? Not e what scholars say about these nations:

According to the Old Testament, the Canaanites and other tribes in the land widely practiced child sacrifice, incest, bestiality, and other behaviors that almost everyone in history, including today, rightly regard as unspeakably, grossly immoral. For this reason this nation needed to be exterminated.

Why is the Bible Myth (with a bit of distorted history)? I take it you don't believe in the multiple gods of ancient Sumeria or Babylon. Their literature, however, is included in the Bible - even the "wisdom" literature and lamentations. If you believe the words of the ancient Sumerian priests were bullshit, then - the bible is too.

 

Where did the idea of God come from? Unknown phenomena prompted a search for explanations that the ancients did not have the knowledge to provide, so gods explained the winds, the rains, the earthquakes, why the sun "rises and sets" and why the sky was blue. This was true for all civilizations, and the Hebrews were no different. The reasons for not believing in God are too numerous to mention in a single post, but perhaps you might read some of the testimonies about how we "figured out" that gods, from the Greeks, to the Mesopotamians, to the Egyptians, Aztecs, Hindus and Hebrews were all the same.

 

Did you know that "God" ordered the same human sacrifices as their neighbors (Bible verse on request, but I'm wondering if you know the verse...)? I'm not just talking about Abraham; I'm talking about laws that God regretted making in the first place. Or maybe the Hebrews got a conscience.

 

Regardless, there is no such thing as an evil nation. Nations are made of people, some of whom are good, some of whom are bad. To "dehumanize" the people of Canaan like that is immoral. Infants were killed! Oh, those evil Infants.

 

But the virgins of Midian. Ummmmm! Can't kill them, can we? No, they are my preciousssssss.

 

Sexual slavery. Now that's a novel concept!

[Kuroikaze]

Nowhere will you find in the Bible this kind of thing of denigrating another human being.

 

You make my point. Perhaps YOU didn't find this message in the Bible but OTHERS DO.

 

Now, who has the correct interpretation? I know, YOU DO!

 

Bugger off.

 

yeah, I saw this earlier and almost fell of my chair laughing. How much of the bible has this person actually read?

[SEEtheScorn]

He's a troll.

 

Or a complete idiot.

 

I regret wasting my time here.

[Guest amazed]

Christianity has a long long record of providing charity and education to countless people through the centuries. What have any atheistic institutions done to help the poor and sick through the centuries?

Who cares? Atheism isn't a lifestyle like Christianity it's a disbelief in god(s).

If atheism was as popular as Christianity over the centuries i would not expect to see much if any good from it.

[Guest amazed]

According to the Old Testament, the Canaanites and other tribes in the land widely practiced child sacrifice, incest, bestiality, and other behaviors that almost everyone in history, including today, rightly regard as unspeakably, grossly immoral. For this reason this nation needed to be exterminated.

So the solution was to kill them all, including their children? Seriously. If there (and I say "if", because I read some archeological report that these accusations have not been substantiated) were child-sacrifice going on, then why kill the children and women too? Donkey, horses, and all the cattle as well. Burn down their houses and beat the crap out of the kittens. All in the name of the vengeful and hateful God called YHWH.

 

How sick and twisted is that?

Did this action by Israel stop the spread of these horrible practices?

 

What part did killing the babies play in stopping the spread of these horrible practices?

 

What part did killing the donkeys and cattle play in stopping the spread of these horrible practices?

 

Phanta

These are good questions and again i would have to do some research on this.

[Kuroikaze]

If atheism was as popular as Christianity over the centuries i would not expect to see much if any good from it.

 

you would expect? who cares what you would expect. Your expectations and reality do not seem to match very often from what I can gather.