What Good Has Atheism Done?

[Guest amazed]

 

Here is the article:

Hell boosts the economy: survey

 

Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study the latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up government support.

"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they do so they turn to other things," she said.

"I cannot imagine what the belief in mythological beings or things that don't exist can do for business. What about the pornographic industry? That is probably very good for growth."

- Reuters

Do you think it is significant that all of us look at quality of life, and your study looks only at per capita GDP?

 

Is money all that matters in life?

 

And why would an atheist say that the "Federal Reserve Bank" of St. Louis is part of the "religious establishment"?

 

Considering that there are no atheists in Islamic countries (it's against the law), and all Muslims fear hell (by definition), then the countries that fear hell the most would not include the US with 10% atheist and a bunch of other religions that do not recognize hell.

 

What does that have to do with truth anyway? Are you arguing that Muslims are right because they fear hell more than the US?

I'm arguing that if a person believes in hell and can find himself there by living a corrupt life then that person has at least one good reason not to engage in evil if he believes such a place exist. I think many people do evil because they think they will never be caught.

[Ouroboros]

Do you think those commands in the Bible that tells us not to steal, commit adultery and to honor your parents as being outdated?

There are 613 commands in the OT. Most of them are outdated. You can't follow them all or think that all of them fit into our society.

 

Honor your parents is a very subjective code.

 

The law against stealing is still functional, and was first put into law by Hammurabi, a looooong time before Moses.

 

To commit adultery or not, that should be a question for the person, not a moral code. I don't do it, because it would hurt my wife, not because God commands it. I have a rational reason to not do it. No one is forcing me. It's a rational reason to why not do it.

 

No I would not stone a disobedient son unless it was some horrific crime. This was not some trivial offense in ancient Israel but one that threatened the entire family.

One of the 613 laws says that you should stone an unruly child.

 

Do you follow the moral of the Bible or not?

 

Genocide in ancient times would have been a good thing under certain conditions.

Yes, it was good for the purpose of enforcing a new religion on the region and totally eradicate the opposition. Genocide works, but it's still wrong.

 

I would not say that genocide is the same as mercy and compassion but sometimes, especially in the past it was necessary to stop evil.

It's the same excuse every dictator or despot has used to justify genocide. Saddam Hussein killed the Kurds because he wanted to stop their "evil" against his kingdom.

 

In a sense we did this kind of thing in WW2 with Germany and Japan.

No, we didn't.

 

And even if we would have, it doesn't justify it as good. It is still evil to do.

[bdp]

 

Once you die, then what will it have mattered if your life and all that you did ends at the grave and is forgotten in a short time?

 

 

It won't. So what, I won't be here to care whether anyone remembers.

Do we agree then that if atheism is true our lives are ultimately meaningless like a leaf that falls off a tree? That there is no difference between a worm that dies or man who also dies?

 

why not? death is a fact, the conclusion of life, nothing more.

[bdp]

 

I'm arguing that if a person believes in hell and can find himself there by living a corrupt life then that person has at least one good reason not to engage in evil if he believes such a place exist. I think many people do evil because they think they will never be caught.

 

People who do 'evil' are sociopaths.

[Guest amazed]

No I would not stone a disobedient son unless it was some horrific crime. This was not some trivial offense in ancient Israel but one that threatened the entire family. Genocide in ancient times would have been a good thing under certain conditions. I would not say that genocide is the same as mercy and compassion but sometimes, especially in the past it was necessary to stop evil. In a sense we did this kind of thing in WW2 with Germany and Japan.

 

Benefit of the doubt time is over, you really are a reprehensible idiot.

Wow.. Yer smart......

[Shyone]

Genocide in ancient times would have been a good thing under certain conditions.

 

Holy Shit!

 

What a heartless, selfish, inhuman, blind, immoral Bastard! Use your "God-Given" common sense "for Christ's sake!"

 

What child has ever deserved to die for some cause?

 

I can understand (although not agree with or support) "incidental casualties of war", but the deliberate slaughter of children is incomprehensible.

 

Your reasoning is not just cold and inhuman, it is appalling.

[FiddlingAround]

The problem with atheism is that there are not standards of good or bad. What criteria does an atheist use for what is good or bad except his own thinking?

When God commanded Israel to commit genocide what was the reason he did so? What was so evil about the Cananites (?) that it was required to exterminate them completely? Sometimes some races are so wicked and corrupt that they must be destroyed or they will corrupt other nations.

From a Christian perspective good would be defined as that is found in the nature of God i.e. mercy, truth, compassion etc.

 

No. "Good" from a Christian perspective is not "mercy, truth, compassion, etc;" it's whatever they convince themselves God happens to do or say regardless of how repulsive those sayings or deeds are. Your cheerful defense of OT massacres is a case in point.

 

Atheistic morality is not based on the arbitrary declarations of a despot in the sky. It's based on the ramifications for living, breathing, feeling human beings. How is this not a standard?

[Kuroikaze]

Do you think those commands in the Bible that tells us not to steal, commit adultery and to honor your parents as being outdated?

No I would not stone a disobedient son unless it was some horrific crime. This was not some trivial offense in ancient Israel but one that threatened the entire family. Genocide in ancient times would have been a good thing under certain conditions. I would not say that genocide is the same as mercy and compassion but sometimes, especially in the past it was necessary to stop evil. In a sense we did this kind of thing in WW2 with Germany and Japan.

 

The fact that you can sit here and defend genocide is all the proof i need that my atheist morality is better than yours. The bible is hardly the only book to contain rules against theft.

 

 

We committed genocide against Germany and Japan? That is a funny thing to say, cause I lived in Japan 8 months last year, and guess what there are still Japanese people there. Seems you are wrong.

 

Genocide is never necessary, though occasionally war is, this is not the same thing at all. we didn't go out of our way to kill children, or turn the virgin women in to sex slaves. Though the bible god commands both in the OT.

 

The fact that you can even defend this kind of behavior shows that you have given up your own sense of morals. You just believe what you are told to believe, you are not more a moral agent than a robot is.

[SEEtheScorn]

Aw, read my post, eh? I took much angry energy to write that, ne.

 

I think I just realized why you're here though. Your comments say it all.

 

I don't think you buy the shit you believe either. Maybe you do, I don't think you do.

 

I think you just want to find what's better. Cause you're selfish like that. You believe in Christianity because it works better for you. Believe in Jesus, and you get in to Heaven. Do good things, and you get rewards in that heaven that's already given to you. Seems like a win-win situation. You seem like a Pascal's Wager kind of man/woman(?). I think you're also afraid of Hell. Don't worry, we all went through that fear. It can be conquered.

 

Is that it? Do you want us to convince you that atheism has pros too? Well, many of us aren't convinced that there is not life after death. So there is that. That and you can focus all your time and energy on improving your life, the life of those around you, and the intellectual progress of man kind and put superstitions beside.

 

What good has atheism do? What good can YOU do? Ask yourself that. Not God, YOU. Don't give me that crap of "Jesus working through me." That's bull.What can you do? What has humanity done?

 

Humanity, humans, have done wonderful things. Christian, muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Pagan, or Atheist. Humans have done much good. Tell me what has God done?

[Guest amazed]

Genocide in ancient times would have been a good thing under certain conditions.

 

Holy Shit!

 

What a heartless, selfish, inhuman, blind, immoral Bastard! Use your "God-Given" common sense "for Christ's sake!"

 

What child has ever deserved to die for some cause?

 

I can understand (although not agree with or support) "incidental casualties of war", but the deliberate slaughter of children is incomprehensible.

 

Your reasoning is not just cold and inhuman, it is appalling.

It is a difficult issue and one that i personally don't like either.

[Kuroikaze]

 

I'm arguing that if a person believes in hell and can find himself there by living a corrupt life then that person has at least one good reason not to engage in evil if he believes such a place exist. I think many people do evil because they think they will never be caught.

 

I think you have a rather disturbing (and inaccurate) view of human nature.

[Guest amazed]

Do you think those commands in the Bible that tells us not to steal, commit adultery and to honor your parents as being outdated?

No I would not stone a disobedient son unless it was some horrific crime. This was not some trivial offense in ancient Israel but one that threatened the entire family. Genocide in ancient times would have been a good thing under certain conditions. I would not say that genocide is the same as mercy and compassion but sometimes, especially in the past it was necessary to stop evil. In a sense we did this kind of thing in WW2 with Germany and Japan.

 

The fact that you can sit here and defend genocide is all the proof i need that my atheist morality is better than yours. The bible is hardly the only book to contain rules against theft.

 

 

We committed genocide against Germany and Japan? That is a funny thing to say, cause I lived in Japan 8 months last year, and guess what there are still Japanese people there. Seems you are wrong.

 

Genocide is never necessary, though occasionally war is, this is not the same thing at all. we didn't go out of our way to kill children, or turn the virgin women in to sex slaves. Though the bible god commands both in the OT.

 

The fact that you can even defend this kind of behavior shows that you have given up your own sense of morals. You just believe what you are told to believe, you are not more a moral agent than a robot is.

Why don't you give the specific passages in the Bible that you thinks says what you are claiming? Maybe we can see something here that you might not have noticed.

[Shyone]

 

I'm arguing that if a person believes in hell and can find himself there by living a corrupt life then that person has at least one good reason not to engage in evil if he believes such a place exist. I think many people do evil because they think they will never be caught.

 

Why do Christians do evil? The televangelists alone would take a page to list, and the average Christian seems to be prone to evil acts as well. The proportion of God-believers in prison is higher than the proportion of atheists relative to their numbers in society.

 

Remember the mass murderer "BTK" (Bind, Torture, Kill)? He was a deacon in the Zion Lutheran Church.

 

[i can't wait for the "They're not True Christians[sup]TM[/sup]" argument.]

[Guest amazed]

 

I'm arguing that if a person believes in hell and can find himself there by living a corrupt life then that person has at least one good reason not to engage in evil if he believes such a place exist. I think many people do evil because they think they will never be caught.

 

I think you have a rather disturbing (and inaccurate) view of human nature.

What is your view of human nature? Is man in his nature good or bad?

[Guest amazed]

Do you think those commands in the Bible that tells us not to steal, commit adultery and to honor your parents as being outdated?

No I would not stone a disobedient son unless it was some horrific crime. This was not some trivial offense in ancient Israel but one that threatened the entire family. Genocide in ancient times would have been a good thing under certain conditions. I would not say that genocide is the same as mercy and compassion but sometimes, especially in the past it was necessary to stop evil. In a sense we did this kind of thing in WW2 with Germany and Japan.

 

What was it about those ancient times that made genocide acceptable in a way that it is no longer acceptable?

 

Phanta

I would to do some research to find out.

[Ouroboros]

I would to do some research to find out.

Are you saying that you'll come back and use arguments and reason to explain it? But... you said that it's wrong to use reason and logic for morality. That's what we atheists use, and it can't be used because morality, good, and evil can only be established by the Bible. So which way is it? Are you going to use emotional appeal based on a 2,000 year old book, or will you use reason--just like us?

[Guest amazed]

The church did not give us the Dark Ages but had other causes.

 

Which church didn't cause it? Please be specific.

 

Thank you.

 

Phanta

Here are some of the causes of the dark ages.

 

Yes, that didn't answer my question. Perhaps you can reread my question.

 

Here it is rephrased:

 

Which specific church body are you absolving of guilt for the Dark Ages?

 

Thank you.

 

Phanta

The church was not responsible for the dark ages. Just read the history of it.

[Guest amazed]

I would to do some research to find out.

Are you saying that you'll come back and use arguments and reason to explain it? But... you said that it's wrong to use reason and logic for morality. That's what we atheists use, and it can't be used because morality, good, and evil can only be established by the Bible. So which way is it? Are you going to use emotional appeal based on a 2,000 year old book, or will you use reason--just like us?

Both. I use the Bible and reason.

[Ouroboros]

Both. I use the Bible and reason.

So if reason contradict the Bible, what do you do?

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Atheists give life inherit meaning, without the need of subjective beliefs to make it so. You say genocide can be a good thing so obviously your morality is subjective to what god commands (or more correctly what you think god commands). Mankind can do with a dose of humility and stop thinking that the entire cosmos is there for his benefit, that infinitely powerful creators go through each mundane struggle with them and spin the laws of probability in their favor. I became a much better person when I stopped being a Christian because I started treating each person as a unique individual with a finite life as important to them as mine was to me. The word is empathy and its a function of our brains that allows us to put ourselves in the "shoes" of others because we are a social species. We evolved to survive by looking out for one another in loyalty. We reproduce by partnering and having intimate relationships with our offspring. As far as we have come, we are not an end result but a continuing process. There is meaning in that. We are a part of the universe, a very tiny part, that actually has the ability to discover the universe. We are literally personifications of the universe and there is meaning in that. Its big - so much bigger than anything we can comprehend so maybe you look up and see stars that shine from billions of years away and that feeling of awe makes you feel meaningless. As big as as amazing as the stars are, they can't look back at you and wonder. So there is meaning in that too.

 

Does each action we do have eternal meaning? No. Eternal life is absurd. Death bringing an end to our conscious selves does not negate the meaning of the life but rather amplifies it. I am sorry that you cannot see it that way.

 

If you want to know my personal meaning of life, at the moment it revolves around my children and husband. Real love between real people that has enriched my life far more than enforced love with an immaterial being. I looked for the love of god and found it in a man. I looked for the feeling of spiritual ecstasy and found it in an orgasm. I looked for the courage to overcome my life problems and found it within myself. I did not need god to give my life meaning.

 

The falling of leaves is a great image. Without the death and fall of old leaves, the soil would lack nutrients, the trees would suffer from winter cold, and new fruits would never grow in the spring. There is meaning in the falling of the yearly leaves and there is meaning in your life and in your death.

[Kuroikaze]

What is your view of human nature? Is man in his nature good or bad?

 

Neither, ones actions define their nature, and human nature contains an impetus to do both things we define and good and things we define as bad.

[Kuroikaze]

The church was not responsible for the dark ages. Just read the history of it.

 

While I would agree that there were many things that caused the scientific and social stagnation of the dark ages, to claim that the Catholic church had NOTHING to do with those things is rather silly.

[Ouroboros]

Deut 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and unruly son, who will not hear the commandments of his father or mother, and being corrected, slighteth obedience: 19 They shall take him and bring him to the ancients of the city, and to the gate of judgment, 20 And shall say to them: This our son is rebellious and stubborn, he slighteth hearing our admonitions, he giveth himself to revelling, and to debauchery and banquetings: 21 The people of the city shall stone him: and he shall die, that you may take away the evil out of the midst of you, and all Israel hearing it may be afraid.

(Douay-Rheims trans)

 

And perhaps we should bring out the commandments about stoning your lazy ox (and the owners).

[Shyone]

Genocide is never necessary, though occasionally war is, this is not the same thing at all. we didn't go out of our way to kill children, or turn the virgin women in to sex slaves. Though the bible god commands both in the OT.

 

The fact that you can even defend this kind of behavior shows that you have given up your own sense of morals. You just believe what you are told to believe, you are not more a moral agent than a robot is.

Why don't you give the specific passages in the Bible that you thinks says what you are claiming? Maybe we can see something here that you might not have noticed.

Keep in mind the following:

 

1. The God of the Old testament does not exist. If I express the opinion that "HE" is cruel, I mean the description of this fanciful being is cruel.

2. The Bible itself is a collection of mythology with no more connection than the Koran, Rig Veda, or ancient mesopotamian writings predating the Bible.

 

Now on to the "passages."

 

Deut 7:1-2, 9:3,

Num 21

Num 25:17,31:1-2, 7, 15-18 (the bolded is particularly horrific. Captives slaughtered including infants, boys and women)

Joshua 6:21

Joshua 8:24-26

Joshua 10:32-40

Joshua 11:11-12

(and more - too disgusting to read)

Judges 21:11-12

1 Sam 15:1-9

 

There's more, of course.

[dagnarus]

 

Those that promote such things as "God hates fags" to "burn the witch" are not speaking from the Christian Scriptures but from their own hatreds. Nowhere will you find in the Bible this kind of thing of denigrating another human being.

 

 

Yes they are speaking from scripture.

Do you have chapter and verse?

 

Are you one of those Christians who thinks the Bible is the best book in the existence, yet has never actually read the whole thing?