What Good Has Atheism Done?

[Guest amazed]

If there is no afterlife and any accountablity before God how i live here i would not be that motivated to help many outside my family.

 

So with no imagined reward or punishment you would be too self-absorbed to care about the misery of your fellow human beings. Perhaps believing that the god of the Bible really exists keeps you from being a complete sociopath. Normal people don't need the stick and carrot to have empathy and altruistic motives.

 

Please bear in mind that atheism is not a religion, an organized movement, or a choice. It's a conclusion many people arrive at after considering, or especially experiencing, religion. It's a conclusion some reach after much prayer, study of the Bible, and an education in the physical sciences, history and psychology.

 

The church has historically had people who did good and others who did unspeakable evil. If your point is that belief in your god is a requirement to do good, you're beyond any rational discussion.

Actually I think there are a lot atheist who self-absorbed for the mere fact their atheism gives no grounds to do good. Being an atheist makes it possible for that person to make up his own rules to live by. If he decides that helping your fellow man then who is to say that is wrong from an atheistic view?

There really is no incentive for atheist to organize and do good as the church has done for centuries. Atheism is a belief or non belief in God primarily for some of the reasons you give. Now let’s see where this non belief leads you. For one it gives you no foundation for doing good to others in the ultimate sense since this is all there is. Once you die you become worm food. Why do good to a stranger if it doesn’t really matter in the long run?

Belief in God is not a requirement to do good but without God there is no ultimate reason for doing so since it does not matter.

[Guest amazed]

I sacrifice for others based on my religious convictions that what i do in this life will impact my life in the afterlife. Christ commanded it and i do find it personally rewarding and know that such actions please God in whom i will be held accountable to. If there is no afterlife and any accountablity before God how i live here i would not be that motivated to help many outside my family. Its to costly in time and resources if this is all there is.

Wow. That's interesting.

 

Basically you're admitting to be a self-centered arrogant prick who wouldn't give shit for other people unless God forced you to. That shows your true nature, doesn't it? I'm acting good to people because I want to, not because I have to. Who is the better person? The one who acts good because they are good, or the one who acts good because he has to please his master?

 

I don’t claim to be a good person because I know what’s in my heart and I know what the standard of goodness is. I fall far short of this perfect standard as does the rest of mankind. I am by nature self-centered as we all are. Have you ever been self-centered? Have you ever ignored the needs of someone? Have you always been loving towards everyone?

[Guest amazed]

Since you are a doctor then you must know that it was the Christians in the early centuries the started hospitals for the common people and the poor.

 

Christians did many things to get more converts and stockpile their imagined rewards in their equally imagined afterlife. So what?

 

This was not the reason they did so. They did it because they had an example of it in Christ and he commanded his followers to care for the poor.

[Ouroboros]

I don’t claim to be a good person because I know what’s in my heart and I know what the standard of goodness is. I fall far short of this perfect standard as does the rest of mankind. I am by nature self-centered as we all are. Have you ever been self-centered? Have you ever ignored the needs of someone? Have you always been loving towards everyone?

Exactly my point. You're not a better person because you're a Christian. We are all the same. So why compare when you can admit that Christianity doesn't make you a better person?

[Guest amazed]

I'm not treating charity as a contest nor is this topic primarily about numbers and organizations but the outworking, the fruit of our different worldviews and how they impact the world. In the atheistic worldview i see no reason to do good if this life is all there is. It has no ulimate value.

Atheism is more like a lack of a specific category of worldviews. It's the non-believe in a religious worldview, but it doesn't mean it has a defined worldview in itself. Many different worldviews can arise from the atheist standpoint, not just one.

 

And why can't there be a value just because God doesn't exist?

 

Are you saying that your value is to be God's slave? What is your value? Can you explain your view of the meaning of live and what value life has? Please. Lets see if it makes sense or not.

What I’m saying is that I have a ultimate meaning to my life since I will be held accountable for what I do. How I am judged will have eternal consequences. From the simplest action to what I say will have significance either in heaven or hell. I also believe that we are more than just our physical bodies. We have spirits that will live forever.

 

If God does not exist there is no ultimate value to our lives. When we die that’s it. We turn to dust and are forgotten. Our deaths will have no more significance than when a leaf falls off a tree and is forgotten. This is where atheism leads.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

 

Actually I think there are a lot atheist who self-absorbed for the mere fact their atheism gives no grounds to do good. Being an atheist makes it possible for that person to make up his own rules to live by. If he decides that helping your fellow man then who is to say that is wrong from an atheistic view?

There really is no incentive for atheist to organize and do good as the church has done for centuries. Atheism is a belief or non belief in God primarily for some of the reasons you give. Now let’s see where this non belief leads you. For one it gives you no foundation for doing good to others in the ultimate sense since this is all there is. Once you die you become worm food. Why do good to a stranger if it doesn’t really matter in the long run?

Belief in God is not a requirement to do good but without God there is no ultimate reason for doing so since it does not matter.

 

We have been trying to establish that atheism doesn't indicate any sort of lifestyle or motivation on its own. Its why comparing religion to atheism doesn't make sense.

 

As someone who is not an atheist, I am not sure why you think you can catagorically state the beliefs, attitudes or motivations of atheists.

 

This discussion will be much more profitable on both sides if it is about secularism vs theism/ Christianity. Because secularism and humanism have views that can be argued as it pertains to morality where atheism alone does not.

[Karhoof]

Amazed, in less than 15 posts, you've shown yourself to be arrogant, extremely self-centered, ruthless, cut-throat, vile, selfish, uncaring, completely dismissive of others, ignorant, uneducated and an all-around fuckwit.

 

 

You almost make me want to be religious again.

So I can ask god to please keep you out of my life.

[Guest amazed]

This was not the reason they did so. They did it because they had an example of it in Christ and he commanded his followers to care for the poor.

 

 

Oh right I forgot about that motivation: obedience.

 

Point is, their motivations were fueled by something other than compassion.

 

The fact that Jesus had to command and bribe people to help the poor, just shows what a sorry bunch of assholes his followers were/are.

Do you have the chapter and verse where Jesus bribed people to help the poor?

It is true that sometimes we do good out of obedience and not compassion. Many do it for compassionate reasons though. Those who live among the poor are in this category. i wish i were that compassionate but i'm not.

[Ouroboros]

What I’m saying is that I have a ultimate meaning to my life since I will be held accountable for what I do. How I am judged will have eternal consequences. From the simplest action to what I say will have significance either in heaven or hell. I also believe that we are more than just our physical bodies. We have spirits that will live forever.

So basically you only do good because you have to. You're accountable, that's why you do good, and not because you really want to. Right?

 

Well, as a matter of fact, I do feel a duty and accountability as well. But not to your God.

 

There are two aspects in my view (which is not the common atheist view), which is that I believe life is a "gift" from Nature. And I owe it to the privilege to the Universe to show respect and do what is best for the overall community. I feel a certain duty to life.

 

The second is, I feel a duty towards my future self. Ten years from now I will be looking back (if I'm still alive) and wonder what the hell I did with it. What choices did I make? Do I regret anything? What kind of future do I want? And my want is that when I lay down on a hospital bed, ready to pass away into the realm of nothingness, I want to be surrounded by a family who loves me. What would I have to do to get there? I have to act according to it now, not later. So I have a duty towards my future self to act appropriately now.

 

So do I have duties and accountability? Yes, I do too.

 

If God does not exist there is no ultimate value to our lives.

If God exists and I don't believe in him, then the ultimate value is to be the entertainment for God. We have to suffer excruciating pain for all eternity, just because we didn't believe in him. What kind of twisted value is that?

 

And you, you will go to Heaven and stand in front of the throne for eternity and sing songs. What value is that?

 

I don't see how God adds any value to life.

 

Living adds value to life. Maximize your potential. Make life worth living. That is the value.

 

When we die that’s it. We turn to dust and are forgotten. Our deaths will have no more significance than when a leaf falls off a tree and is forgotten. This is where atheism leads.

Actually what atheism leads to is this, we value our current life much more. It's the only time, and only chance we have to live. We try our hardest to make the best life and create most value out of it. As an atheist, now is more important, and now has the value, not tomorrow.

 

For you on the other hand, this life doesn't mean anything. For you Heaven is the goal. You can't feel as much for this life, or even value this life, because this life is nothing compared to where you believe you're going.

 

So how does your faith add any more value to life than my view? I feel that my view adds more value.

[oddbird1963]

 

What I’m saying is that I have a ultimate meaning to my life since I will be held accountable for what I do. How I am judged will have eternal consequences. From the simplest action to what I say will have significance either in heaven or hell. I also believe that we are more than just our physical bodies. We have spirits that will live forever.

 

If God does not exist there is no ultimate value to our lives. When we die that’s it. We turn to dust and are forgotten. Our deaths will have no more significance than when a leaf falls off a tree and is forgotten. This is where atheism leads.

 

Why does there need to be ultimate value to life?

 

And why is it you don't seem to acknowledge the reason atheists do good? Once again it seems you are ignoring what people are telling you in favor of your own pre-conceived notions of what Atheists are like.

 

If you are talking in terms about the good that people do, we have provided an explanation without calling a god into the equation.

[Guest amazed]

What I’m saying is that I have a ultimate meaning to my life since I will be held accountable for what I do.

 

 

The ultimate meaning to your life is to be judged? How miserable.

 

How is that "meaning"?

It may be miserable but its true. If what the Bible says about this is true then that’s puts us in the position of having to either accept it or reject it. Once we die we find out if this is true or not.

Think of meaning like going to school. You strive to get good grades and to be rewarded for your work not based on what you think but what the school authorities say. Only they have the power to give you grades and certificates that matter.

[Shyone]

 

Does Bill Gates claim to be an atheist?

The church was the one institution in the early centuries that stood up against all kinds of plagues by helping those who were sick. Most of the early scienctists were Christians and devoloped science from a Christian worldview. The church did not give us the Dark Ages but had other causes.

My question is not silly but one that needs to be discussed since all beliefs have consquences in the world. The atheistic worldview does not lead to charity and thats why we don't see atheistic institutions based on it.

 

First, in the ages you are speaking about there were no atheists. Or rather, the ones that said so were executed.

 

When scientists do something, atheist or not, and they have to fight to Church to do it, then the church must accept the blame for the lack of progress, and "mankind" take the credit for any progress. Anesthesia for childbirth, for example, was objected to by the Church on the grounds that it was contrary to the biblical claim that childbirth was supposed to be painful.

 

ASV Genesis 3:16

16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception;

in pain thou shalt bring forth children

; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

Help the poor? How about slavery? Oh, yes Christians want to take credit for eliminating slavery, but the Church, for millenia, has supported and promoted slavery - and if you don't know the biblical basis for this, I'll be happy to provide it for you.

 

How about all of the poor witches y'all burned? I'll be your real proud of that.

 

Churches have opposed all sorts of health measures based on the verses suggesting that illness is from God and Man should not interfere.

 

Edward Massey argued that diseases are sent by God to punish sin and that any attempt to prevent smallpox via inoculation is a "diabolical operation". Some anti-vaccinationists still base their stance against vaccination with reference to their religious beliefs.

 

Therefore, be it known, that based upon the teachings of the Holy Bible,

it is our religious conviction not to have our children our [sic] ourselves vaccinated.

 

Do you claim that atheist never donate? Do you claim that all Christians donate? If your arguments are statistical, then that's poor evidence for any god.

 

Let me ask you a question:

 

If it could be shown that Muslims are twice as generous as Christians, would you become a Muslim?

 

I'm not asking if they are more generous, but rather whether the generosity of any other religion would lead you to abandon Christianity.

 

If not, then the generosity of Christians does not attest to the truth of the religion.

 

Incidentally, there is a secular institution that has done more for the poor and disabled than any Christian organization: The United States Government. Oh, I know - you'll say they're Christian.

 

If Christianity does so much for the poor, then why are there still poor people? Why does the public, myself included, pay for their medical care and, in many cases, housing and food?

 

They sure do have some mighty fine churches though. Really pretty. Paid for with donations to - the Church.

 

[Guest amazed]

 

What I’m saying is that I have a ultimate meaning to my life since I will be held accountable for what I do. How I am judged will have eternal consequences. From the simplest action to what I say will have significance either in heaven or hell. I also believe that we are more than just our physical bodies. We have spirits that will live forever.

 

If God does not exist there is no ultimate value to our lives. When we die that’s it. We turn to dust and are forgotten. Our deaths will have no more significance than when a leaf falls off a tree and is forgotten. This is where atheism leads.

 

Why does there need to be ultimate value to life?

 

And why is it you don't seem to acknowledge the reason atheists do good? Once again it seems you are ignoring what people are telling you in favor of your own pre-conceived notions of what Atheists are like.

 

If you are talking in terms about the good that people do, we have provided an explanation without calling a god into the equation.

I think many of us want to live lives that matter in the ultimate sense. I think most people want to know their lives mattered for something. When we face death do you want to continue to exist or do you find comfort in non existence as dust in the ground?

I do agree atheist can do good. What the atheist cannot do is to tell me why they should do so if their lives are essentially meaningless.

What happens if an atheist decides not to good and live selfishly for himself? What’s wrong with that? Who’s to say in the atheistic view it’s wrong to do this? How do you get beyond mere opinion on this?

[bdp]

When we die that’s it. We turn to dust and are forgotten. Our deaths will have no more significance than when a leaf falls off a tree and is forgotten.

 

Yes - precisely. I'm fine with that.

[oddbird1963]

 

Incidentally, there is a secular institution that has done more for the poor and disabled than any Christian organization: The United States Government. Oh, I know - you'll say they're Christian.

 

 

And lets not forget to give props to Noelle George and The SECULAR Center .

 

I just heard her on the most recent Chariots of Iron Podcast.

 

This group is bringing together atheists/skeptics/humanists to volunteer in non-profit organizations. They plan to organize their own charities, partly because non-profits with Christian biases will sometimes not let people from their group volunteer.

 

How's that for "What Good Has the Church done?"

[florduh]

Actually I think there are a lot atheist who self-absorbed for the mere fact their atheism gives no grounds to do good. Being an atheist makes it possible for that person to make up his own rules to live by.

 

There are Christians (I won't mention any screen names) who are self absorbed because they need the threat of Hell to behave in a decent manner. As for making up rules, your rules are made up too. In addition, your rules are open to a diverse interpretation, from "turn the other cheek" to "God hates fags" to "burn the witch". You are interpreting what you think a god said to suit your own needs and desires. Get off your high horse.

[Guest amazed]

 

It may be miserable but its true. If what the Bible says about this is true then that’s puts us in the position of having to either accept it or reject it. Once we die we find out if this is true or not.

 

 

"If" is the key word here. Why do you think the bible is true?

There are a lot of good arguments I could give you. One that I find persuasive is that I believe that the best explanation for the universe is the existence of a creator with vast powers and intelligence. I just don’t think that this universe which is so high fined tuned could come about without some intelligence behind it. Now if I’m correct about this then it would not be impossible if this being (God) could communicate with mankind if he so chose to. That’s why I have no problem with accepting the Bible as his communication to us. Secondly, if a being can create a universe like this then it would not be unreasonable to believe to think that he could also take on human form and live among us. That’s what I think and believe that the Bible is his communication to us. It gives us such hope not only in this life but in the life to come. It tells us what we are like and the problem we have and it offers us a solution to it.

 

Have you ever read it? If so, what did you think?

[NotBlinded]

I sacrifice for others based on my religious convictions that what i do in this life will impact my life in the afterlife.

 

Self-serving altrusim? Isn't that an oxymoron?

 

Christ commanded it and i do find it personally rewarding and know that such actions please God in whom i will be held accountable to.

 

Alruism under threat? Another oxymoron?

 

If there is no afterlife and any accountablity before God how i live here i would not be that motivated to help many outside my family.

 

Self-serving again.

 

Its to costly in time and resources if this is all there is.

What?

[Shyone]

 

Do you have the chapter and verse where Jesus bribed people to help the poor?

It is true that sometimes we do good out of obedience and not compassion. Many do it for compassionate reasons though. Those who live among the poor are in this category. i wish i were that compassionate but i'm not.

Bribery:

 

ASV Matthew 19:21

21. Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

 

Those Christians that have compassion share that quality with atheists. I am that compassionate. It is a pity that you are not.

 

Extorsion:

 

ASV Matthew 19:23-24

23. And Jesus said unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, It is hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses.

Matt 6:25

[NotBlinded]

Also, treating charity as a contest totally devalues any good you have done. Why is it always about numbers and organizations with you people?

 

Well said, charity or good towards others can not be measured as such and to treat it as a contest shows ill motives.

I'm not treating charity as a contest nor is this topic primarily about numbers and organizations but the outworking, the fruit of our different worldviews and how they impact the world. In the atheistic worldview i see no reason to do good if this life is all there is. It has no ulimate value.

Life is the value. In your view life is the waste land that leads to paradise. We see life as being the paradise. The meaning of life is life itself. Isn't that enough for you? Obviously not, so you look to the future for fulfillment. We value life and want to help those living to value it also. Much more meaning in giving this way.

[Guest amazed]

Actually I think there are a lot atheist who self-absorbed for the mere fact their atheism gives no grounds to do good. Being an atheist makes it possible for that person to make up his own rules to live by.

 

There are Christians (I won't mention any screen names) who are self absorbed because they need the threat of Hell to behave in a decent manner. As for making up rules, your rules are made up too. In addition, your rules are open to a diverse interpretation, from "turn the other cheek" to "God hates fags" to "burn the witch". You are interpreting what you think a god said to suit your own needs and desires. Get off your high horse.

I was reading an article awhile back that found in a study that those societies that believed in hell had better standards of living and less corruption. We should be surprised by this since if people do fear hell they will be less likely to do evil.

No doubt churches do make up rules to govern themselves. I’m sure some are silly. Those that promote such things as "God hates fags" to "burn the witch" are not speaking from the Christian Scriptures but from their own hatreds. Nowhere will you find in the Bible this kind of thing of denigrating another human being.

It is true that I do interpret the what God says in the Bible. There is no way getting around that. I will tell you I don’t interpret with the intent to suit my own needs. I struggle with a lot of what it says but I strive to follow it.

By what standard of right and wrong do you live by?

[Guest amazed]

 

Do you have the chapter and verse where Jesus bribed people to help the poor?

It is true that sometimes we do good out of obedience and not compassion. Many do it for compassionate reasons though. Those who live among the poor are in this category. i wish i were that compassionate but i'm not.

Bribery:

 

ASV Matthew 19:21

21. Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

 

Those Christians that have compassion share that quality with atheists. I am that compassionate. It is a pity that you are not.

 

Extorsion:

 

ASV Matthew 19:23-24

23. And Jesus said unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, It is hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses.

Matt 6:25

 

How are you defining the word bribery?

 

Its great you are that compassionate. Do you have enough compassion to give up all that you own and give to the poor?

[Shyone]

 

I do agree atheist can do good. What the atheist cannot do is to tell me why they should do so if their lives are essentially meaningless.

What happens if an atheist decides not to good and live selfishly for himself? What’s wrong with that? Who’s to say in the atheistic view it’s wrong to do this? How do you get beyond mere opinion on this?

If atheists do good, and you don't understand why, that's your problem.

 

Do a bible search for the words "Morality" and "Ethics".

 

What you seem to lack is a basic understanding of society. I help my neighbor, and I am gratified. He helps me, and I appreciate that (and thank him - not God). The desire to help others is a big part of why we can exist harmoniously. Acting selfishly is truly, in every respect, counter productive because one that acts that way will not benefit from society.

 

You are basically expressing selfish motivations, and I think you know that. If everything you do that is good is to gain brownie points with the sky-daddy (and avoid hell), then your generosity is not from within, but essentially coerced.

 

You had better start living, or you will waste your life seeking that which does not exist.

[Guest amazed]

Also, treating charity as a contest totally devalues any good you have done. Why is it always about numbers and organizations with you people?

 

Well said, charity or good towards others can not be measured as such and to treat it as a contest shows ill motives.

I'm not treating charity as a contest nor is this topic primarily about numbers and organizations but the outworking, the fruit of our different worldviews and how they impact the world. In the atheistic worldview i see no reason to do good if this life is all there is. It has no ulimate value.

Life is the value. In your view life is the waste land that leads to paradise. We see life as being the paradise. The meaning of life is life itself. Isn't that enough for you? Obviously not, so you look to the future for fulfillment. We value life and want to help those living to value it also. Much more meaning in giving this way.

 

You misunderstand me. This life has great value and that value is based on God himself who gives life.

How can you say life as being the paradise when there is so much pain, suffering and death in it?

What meaning does death have for you?

[NotBlinded]

Matthew 6

 

Giving to the Needy

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

amazed if you are expecting a reward, your left hand knows damn well what your right hand is doing. WWJD?