What Good Has Atheism Done?

[Guest amazed]

I to at times do good out of compassion etc. I also know that it ultimately matters because God sees it. The atheist cannot make such claims. He is trapped in this world and once his physical life dies that’s it. Your good deeds done even for compassionate reasons end at the grave if atheism is true.

You know, this thought here is getting pretty damn tiresome. BFD if it ends at the grave! It only ends at the grave FOR US, not for the ones we have helped. How freakin' self-centered can you get??

It is dismal if atheism is true.

[bdp]

whatever, I don't care, besides the Red Wings are on.

[Ouroboros]

Damn Phanta! You're starting to sound like me!

 

Go girl! (Can I say that even if I'm a guy?)

[ContraBardus]

What an incredibly stupid question.

 

What part of 'Ex-Christian' did you have difficulty understanding?

 

All of us have been Christians, do you know any Christians who haven't read the Bible? Is it even possible to be a Christian without reading it, or at the very least having someone else read it to you?

 

Most of us here know the Bible better than most Christians do. A common factor of leaving Christianity is an attempt to validate it. Most of us tried very hard to validate the claims in the Bible, we studied it extensively and instead, discovered that it did not fit the evidence, and was contradicted by the actual evidence. That's why we stopped believing in it.

 

As for your Question. It's easy to rebut with the obvious counter question. What harm has Atheism done?

 

There have been no Historical atrocities committed -because- of Atheism. Sure, some Atheist have done bad things, but those things were not motivated by Atheism. They were all motivated by other factors, not related to Atheism in the slightest. Ambition, politics, power, and other things that had nothing to do with their belief in God. Nor is there any reason to believe that any of it would have not happened if they had believed in God.

 

Christians cannot say the same thing. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Conquistadors, the Nazis, the Dark Ages, Numerous Witch Huntings [Not just Salem, and it continues to this day], and numerous other horrific acts were all committed by people -because- of their Christian beliefs.

 

Even if the leaders or politicians who instigated them did them for other reasons, the rank and file were following their religious beliefs, obeying their clergy leaders, and did what -they- did because of their faith in their religion and the Church. The Church told them to do it, so they believed they were right, and that what they were doing was the work of God. They did it -because- they were Christian. Their belief in God did not stop them from doing bad things, and in fact facilitated it and made it easier to get them to do those things.

 

Atheist do not do such things. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing anyone has done simply because they are Atheist.

 

It does not matter if they do not fit -your- personal Christians beliefs, or if you think they were 'real Christians' or not. Those things were motivated, promoted, and supported by their faith. It was either a direct cause, or used to facilitate those acts.

 

They thought they were real Christians, they believed in what they were doing, they thought it was what God wanted, and they had the support of the Church, their religion, and the Bible to do them. They used scripture to justify their motivations, were supported by the clergy, and really believed they were following God's word, and God's commands doing it.

 

There are lots of secularist charities. No one needs God to be charitable. There is not one single act of Charity or morality that a Christian can perform that an Atheist does not perform as well. Provide one example of a good thing any Christian can do that I can not.

 

Your entire argument is based on a false dilemma. That good cannot exist without your God. There's no evidence to support that claim at all. In fact, it's completely contradicted and can easily be proven false.

 

There are Islamic charities, Hindu charities, Buddhist charities, every single faith has charities, and does good things. That includes people with secularist or Atheistic beliefs. There is no evidence whatsoever that anyone is any more charitable because they are Christian than they would be without the faith. None.

 

Hitler didn't start killing Jews, spouting angry tirades, and bullying people with fear. He built roads, spoke of hope and a better world, promised rewards, and did a lot of good things for Germany as well as doing a lot of charitable work.

 

The Church is no different. It also does many horrible things, but it does not use those things to draw people to it. First, it speaks of love, and charity. It promises hope, and a better place, rewards for good behavior, and justice.

 

Then, after you believe and have an emotional investment in the Church, it speaks of punishment. Then it tells you who you should hate, what you should work against, how wrong everyone else is. Then it tells of sinners and the evils of those who do not believe. Then it uses the threat of Hell, an unmerciful horrible place of eternal torment used to punish finite sins. Then it speaks of God's cruelty and wrath, as a warning to keep you in the faith and of how it wants to 'save' you from this horrible fate.

 

It's a consistent and clearly defined pattern that's easy to see if you really look at it. Attract believers with promises of love, hope, and a better future. Then, use fear of punishment and warnings of the evils of others who do not believe and what fate awaits them to control them.

 

Of course, none of the claims, the promise of Heaven, or the punishment of Hell, actually have any evidence to support them. They're just unverifiable, unfalsifiable claims, but they only need you to believe in them. Whether they can actually back up their threats is irrelevant, because just believing in the fear of both missing out on the paradise pipe dream, and being rejected into eternal torture is enough.

 

There is nothing charitable, merciful, or loving about the God in the Bible. You cannot separate the OT from the NT. If one is not literally true, then the other makes no sense.

 

If Adam and Eve did not exist to eat of the tree, if Noah's flood did not really happen, then there was no reason for Jesus to die in the first place. It's all directly connected, and there's no evidence that either is true. The actual evidence completely contradicts it.

 

There's not even any evidence Jesus was a real person. There are no first hand accounts, no contemporary records, no archeological artifacts, or any other support. Not even indirect reports. No accounts of anyone rising from the dead after the resurrection, no reports of any mass teachings, nothing at all until about a century after his death.

 

Your beliefs are just claims. There is no other basis for them other than hearsay accounts. Even the 'execution' of the Apostles have no evidence outside of Christian tradition that they ever really happened.

 

There is no evidence any of the claims made by the Bible are true, and what evidence there is, contradicts those claims.

 

The point is really that you've got no basis for any of your claims. It's just your opinion, which is fine, but there's nothing to back any of it. That includes your assertion about charity and Atheism. It's contradicted by the evidence, many important discoveries and improvements to the lives of men were the result of Atheists. Atheists have done a lot of good for the world, and Atheism does not harm the world.

 

Christianity cannot make the same claim. Charity and good works are not enough to counterbalance all the harm that it has done. It's like giving a mass murderer community service as a punishment instead of locking them away from others to protect society from their regular fits of violence because they don't harm people 'most of the time'.

 

Being Christian does not make you a better person, being an Atheist does not make you worse. How charitable a person is has nothing to do with belief in any God. It's got to do with their upbringing, and no, Christian upbringing or faith in a God is not necessary to provide that grounding, nor is it any better at achieving the effect than a good upbringing without the concept of God. It's just something Christians claim, but cannot back up. Just another baseless claim that no Christian can prove or verify.

 

It's true, whether you like it or not, that your claims thus far just show your bias and ignorance of Atheism/Humanism/Secularism. You've got no backing for any claim you've made at all.

 

Your anthology of Jewish fairy tales is not any sort of evidence of your claims any more than Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade is evidence that an American Archeologist fought Nazis over the Holy Grail in 1938. Both are equally fictional.

[SEEtheScorn]

Wow.

 

I usually am quite level-headed with discussion, but let me make myself clear right now when I say this topic does not deserve such civility. I'm only going to try to avoid name-calling and that's about it.

 

That’s what I think and believe that the Bible is his communication to us.

 

Take it from me, I'm a Bible student. I've read it many many times. I can read it and understand it in Hebrew. I know many of the documents that influenced as well as the history behind, after, and during it's writing. I learned under great teachers of the Bible, and done much independent study.

 

If only you knew what I knew, and actually cared enough about your Bible as I do to actually LEARN about it and not just swallow whatever your pastors and parents have spoon fed you... well, then.. maybe you'd be back in these forums in my shoes and we could have a good chat. Trust me when I say I love the Bible. Trust me also when I say that if you loved it enough to study as I did, you would no longer believe in it either.

 

What the atheist cannot do is to tell me why they should do so if their lives are essentially meaningless.

 

I can't avoid name-calling here, I'm sorry, but this statement is more a reflection of you and your tremendous selfishness than it is about Atheism. Sadly, many have tried to open your eyes concerning this and have apparently gotten nowhere because you won't listen.

 

Let me ask you, why are you here? To try to tell all of us that our lives mean nothing and to define our lives by your God? To make yourself feel more confident in your ridiculous beliefs? Are you here, though I doubt it, to learn? Why are you here?

 

What's more amazing is how you can't seem to realize that Atheism has a better perspective of their meaning than you do. You define your life on God's judegment of you. Atheism (and Deists!) define their lives based on how it effects humanity and later generations. If anything, they/we are more compassionate than you. Your only concern is over covering your own ass. We realize there may, or may not, be life after ours other than our impact on our species.

[Shyone]

 

What other reason can you give to do good outside that it helps your neighbor?

The Bible tells me to do good because it ultimately matters but you don’t have that in atheism. If an atheist wants to live his life totally for himself without helping others who is to say that is wrong?

A Tale of Two Gifts.

 

You are sitting in a pew and the collection plate is being passed. The person to your left puts a wad of bills into the plate and passes it to you. You feel obligated, and it is expected of you to give. You don't really know where the money is going, but you think it's for a "good cause" because it's at church. As the guy that passed you the plate watches, you put money into the plate.

 

------------------------------------

 

Tonight, I went to the grocery store; one that does not encourage tipping. A young man helped us with the groceries and I asked him some questions as we went to the car. He was working until 9:00 tonight and he will have to go to school tomorrow. I gave him $5.00 for a tip; it was not expected of me and I did not "owe" it to him, but I know that it will help him in ways I can't imagine. If his education is helped, he may become a leader, inventor, and be an asset to the community and/or the country. If it helps his family pay a bill, their lives will be easier, and he will benefit.

 

Why give anything? The benefits of giving are for the living, and he may "pay it forward." I didn't do it to get to heaven, or to "keep up with the Joneses" and certainly not to avoid hell. I thought it was a good thing to do that may have consequences worth more than $5.00. It was an investment in life but not one that I will personally reap rewards from.

 

Again, this "ultimate" reason you have for giving; it's for you. You, you, you, you, you, you, you.

 

Think about others for a change.

[Guest amazed]

Would you consider this a weakness in the atheistic worldview since it does not lead to a massive amount of good?

 

 

I consider it a weakness of the Christianity worldview that it leads to "good" based not on doing good-for-goodness-sake, but because of some imagined reward from some imagined being during some imagined non-physical life. Using needy people as a means to an end is not something to be proud of.

If it is true there are rewards for doing good after this life then this would be a powerful incentive to do good and avoid doing evil. Good is not just limited to needy people (although we are all needy to some degree) but to all people. As for the Christian reasons to do good there has been nothing like it in the past 2000 years.

[Ouroboros]

If it is true there are rewards for doing good after this life then this would be a powerful incentive to do good and avoid doing evil. Good is not just limited to needy people (although we are all needy to some degree) but to all people. As for the Christian reasons to do good there has been nothing like it in the past 2000 years.

Using that logic, the Muslims would be the people who do most good. They are supposed to add up good and bad things during the day, and the number of good things should exceed the number of bad.

 

The problem I see is, what is "good" and what is "bad"? God commanded Israel to commit genocide, was that a good thing? So genocide in the name of God is good?

 

So define what "good" is, please.

[Guest amazed]

 

What other reason can you give to do good outside that it helps your neighbor?

The Bible tells me to do good because it ultimately matters but you don’t have that in atheism. If an atheist wants to live his life totally for himself without helping others who is to say that is wrong?

A Tale of Two Gifts.

 

You are sitting in a pew and the collection plate is being passed. The person to your left puts a wad of bills into the plate and passes it to you. You feel obligated, and it is expected of you to give. You don't really know where the money is going, but you think it's for a "good cause" because it's at church. As the guy that passed you the plate watches, you put money into the plate.

 

------------------------------------

 

Tonight, I went to the grocery store; one that does not encourage tipping. A young man helped us with the groceries and I asked him some questions as we went to the car. He was working until 9:00 tonight and he will have to go to school tomorrow. I gave him $5.00 for a tip; it was not expected of me and I did not "owe" it to him, but I know that it will help him in ways I can't imagine. If his education is helped, he may become a leader, inventor, and be an asset to the community and/or the country. If it helps his family pay a bill, their lives will be easier, and he will benefit.

 

Why give anything? The benefits of giving are for the living, and he may "pay it forward." I didn't do it to get to heaven, or to "keep up with the Joneses" and certainly not to avoid hell. I thought it was a good thing to do that may have consequences worth more than $5.00. It was an investment in life but not one that I will personally reap rewards from.

 

Again, this "ultimate" reason you have for giving; it's for you. You, you, you, you, you, you, you.

 

Think about others for a change.

That’s generous for you to give. The problem I have with atheism is that it has no eternal or even enduring value. Like most good that people do its quickly forgotten (even by those who benefit from it). Once you die, then what will it have mattered if your life and all that you did ends at the grave and is forgotten in a short time?

 

I do think about others. That’s what Christianity teaches me to do. What I don’t see from atheism why atheist should except to say it feels good.

[Shyone]

 

Doing good to chalk up one more mark is not what Christianity teaches as the primary motivation to do good. We are to do good to be pleasing to Christ. That is to be the ambition for all Christians. Sadly its not always the case.

Oh I see...fuck the one your doing the good deed for. You don't really want to help them, you want to please Christ.

 

I'm sorry, you make me sick.

I wonder if he has thought it out... Why please Christ? To get to heaven. Why not piss the shit out of Christ? To avoid hell.

 

Carrot and stick. The perfect combination of incentives to make a person in to a Christian.

[Shyone]

 

I was reading an article awhile back that found in a study that those societies that believed in hell had better standards of living and less corruption. We should be surprised by this since if people do fear hell they will be less likely to do evil.

 

Not according to the United Nations:

 

Well, the latest UN rankings are out. Here are the best places in the world to live:

 

1 Norway

2 Australia

3 Iceland

4 Canada

5 Ireland

6 Netherlands

7 Sweden

8 France

9 Switzerland

10 Japan

 

All the usual suspects are there: countries which have the lowest levels of religious belief, best education systems, least disparity between the wealthiest and the poorest, have access to some form of universal health care system, have the most tolerance for minority opinions, and have a relatively high level of personal and property security.

 

The US didn't even make the top 10. IIRC, the US is 37th.

 

[Ouroboros]

That’s generous for you to give. The problem I have with atheism is that it has no eternal or even enduring value. Like most good that people do its quickly forgotten (even by those who benefit from it). Once you die, then what will it have mattered if your life and all that you did ends at the grave and is forgotten in a short time?

And why should that be a matter of doing good or not? Why should the remembrance of the good deed be part of the equation to why you should be good? In other words, you only consider a good act a truly good act, if and only if people will praise you for it in the coming ages? Only if you go to the books as a hero will you consider it to be a good act? How full of yourself are you really? You need people to praise you before you can do good?

 

I do think about others. That’s what Christianity teaches me to do. What I don’t see from atheism why atheist should except to say it feels good.

It feels good to give. So there it is, I said it. Because it actually does feel good to give.

 

If I remember correctly, I think it has been established in research that if we give gifts, there are chemicals released in our brain which increases the feeling of pleasure. So it truly does feel good to give, but that's not the only reason to why you should.

 

I gave you a couple of reasons in an earlier post, but you never responded to it, so I guess you missed it.

[Guest amazed]

If it is true there are rewards for doing good after this life then this would be a powerful incentive to do good and avoid doing evil. Good is not just limited to needy people (although we are all needy to some degree) but to all people. As for the Christian reasons to do good there has been nothing like it in the past 2000 years.

Using that logic, the Muslims would be the people who do most good. They are supposed to add up good and bad things during the day, and the number of good things should exceed the number of bad.

 

The problem I see is, what is "good" and what is "bad"? God commanded Israel to commit genocide, was that a good thing? So genocide in the name of God is good?

 

So define what "good" is, please.

The problem with atheism is that there are not standards of good or bad. What criteria does an atheist use for what is good or bad except his own thinking?

When God commanded Israel to commit genocide what was the reason he did so? What was so evil about the Cananites (?) that it was required to exterminate them completely? Sometimes some races are so wicked and corrupt that they must be destroyed or they will corrupt other nations.

From a Christian perspective good would be defined as that is found in the nature of God i.e. mercy, truth, compassion etc.

[Guest amazed]

Have you ever read it? If so, what did you think?

 

 

I'm an ex-Christian. That should answer both questions.

Why did you reject it? How has atheism given you hope?

[Guest amazed]

Christianity has a long long record of providing charity and education to countless people through the centuries. What have any atheistic institutions done to help the poor and sick through the centuries?

 

What is your TRUE and HONEST reason for asking this question here? What do you want?

 

Please be sincere in your answer; Jesus is watching your heart.

 

Phanta

I want to discuss with atheist to see how atheism works itself out in the world. What benefits does it offer and how does it affect those who believe it.

[Guest amazed]

I can't see why an atheist would want to sacrifice for his fellow man if this is all there is. If I was one i would live totally for myself since this is all there is and life is meaningless anyway in the ultimate sense.

 

This shows only one thing: Christianity is an improvement on your character.

 

Phanta

true.

[Ouroboros]

The problem with atheism is that there are not standards of good or bad. What criteria does an atheist use for what is good or bad except his own thinking?

Yes and no.

 

When Jesus said: do to others what you want them do to you. The golden rule. What is that? It is a rational, logical argument to what is good and why you should do it. That idea was expressed in other philosophical and religious literature earlier than Christianity, so it's not original. But the key is, it makes sense, and it's based on thinking.

 

The best way is to have thought (own thinking) as the foundation for good and bad.

 

To have a foundation on good and bad based on a 2,000 year old book is a bad idea. Because it is outdated.

 

The Bible commands you to stone a disobedient son. Why don't you? Because you know, through reasoning, that it is a bad thing to do.

 

When God commanded Israel to commit genocide what was the reason he did so? What was so evil about the Cananites (?) that it was required to exterminate them completely? Sometimes some races are so wicked and corrupt that they must be destroyed or they will corrupt other nations.

So genocide is a good thing, when God commands it? Yes, or not.

 

In my view, genocide is always--with no excuse--evil.

 

From a Christian perspective good would be defined as that is found in the nature of God i.e. mercy, truth, compassion etc.

Is genocide the same as mercy and compassion?

[Guest amazed]

Its great you are that compassionate. Do you have enough compassion to give up all that you own and give to the poor?

 

Someone who gives all they own to the poor becomes poor, and then needs to be taken care of, or rescued. If everyone does this, then all are poor, and no one is able to sustain life. Does this make sense to you?

 

It's like saying in order for the firefighter to save the victim in the house, she must also become trapped in the fire. Only that is the true Christian way. Does that make sense to you?

 

How can I help the poor if I am poor and need help?

 

Phanta

If it were possible would you give up everything to help the poor while you were able to sustain your self would you do it?

[bdp]

 

Once you die, then what will it have mattered if your life and all that you did ends at the grave and is forgotten in a short time?

 

 

It won't. So what, I won't be here to care whether anyone remembers.

[Guest amazed]

The problem with atheism is that there are not standards of good or bad. What criteria does an atheist use for what is good or bad except his own thinking?

Yes and no.

 

When Jesus said: do to others what you want them do to you. The golden rule. What is that? It is a rational, logical argument to what is good and why you should do it. That idea was expressed in other philosophical and religious literature earlier than Christianity, so it's not original. But the key is, it makes sense, and it's based on thinking.

 

The best way is to have thought (own thinking) as the foundation for good and bad.

 

To have a foundation on good and bad based on a 2,000 year old book is a bad idea. Because it is outdated.

 

The Bible commands you to stone a disobedient son. Why don't you? Because you know, through reasoning, that it is a bad thing to do.

 

When God commanded Israel to commit genocide what was the reason he did so? What was so evil about the Cananites (?) that it was required to exterminate them completely? Sometimes some races are so wicked and corrupt that they must be destroyed or they will corrupt other nations.

So genocide is a good thing, when God commands it? Yes, or not.

 

In my view, genocide is always--with no excuse--evil.

 

From a Christian perspective good would be defined as that is found in the nature of God i.e. mercy, truth, compassion etc.

Is genocide the same as mercy and compassion?

Do you think those commands in the Bible that tells us not to steal, commit adultery and to honor your parents as being outdated?

No I would not stone a disobedient son unless it was some horrific crime. This was not some trivial offense in ancient Israel but one that threatened the entire family. Genocide in ancient times would have been a good thing under certain conditions. I would not say that genocide is the same as mercy and compassion but sometimes, especially in the past it was necessary to stop evil. In a sense we did this kind of thing in WW2 with Germany and Japan.

[Ouroboros]

I likes it!

I likes it 2! She's hot when she's angry.

[Guest amazed]

 

Once you die, then what will it have mattered if your life and all that you did ends at the grave and is forgotten in a short time?

 

 

It won't. So what, I won't be here to care whether anyone remembers.

Do we agree then that if atheism is true our lives are ultimately meaningless like a leaf that falls off a tree? That there is no difference between a worm that dies or man who also dies?

[The-Captain]

No I would not stone a disobedient son unless it was some horrific crime. This was not some trivial offense in ancient Israel but one that threatened the entire family. Genocide in ancient times would have been a good thing under certain conditions. I would not say that genocide is the same as mercy and compassion but sometimes, especially in the past it was necessary to stop evil. In a sense we did this kind of thing in WW2 with Germany and Japan.

 

Benefit of the doubt time is over, you really are a reprehensible idiot.

[Shyone]

 

Here is the article:

Hell boosts the economy: survey

 

Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study the latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up government support.

"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they do so they turn to other things," she said.

"I cannot imagine what the belief in mythological beings or things that don't exist can do for business. What about the pornographic industry? That is probably very good for growth."

- Reuters

Do you think it is significant that all of us look at quality of life, and your study looks only at per capita GDP?

 

Is money all that matters in life?

 

And why would an atheist say that the "Federal Reserve Bank" of St. Louis is part of the "religious establishment"?

 

Considering that there are no atheists in Islamic countries (it's against the law), and all Muslims fear hell (by definition), then the countries that fear hell the most would not include the US with 10% atheist and a bunch of other religions that do not recognize hell.

 

What does that have to do with truth anyway? Are you arguing that Muslims are right because they fear hell more than the US?

[Guest amazed]

The church did not give us the Dark Ages but had other causes.

 

Which church didn't cause it? Please be specific.

 

Thank you.

 

Phanta

Here are some of the causes of the dark ages.

Causes of the Dark Ages

 

Barbarian invasion brought down the Roman Empire

Roman Empire was already in decline militarily, economically, socially, politically

Absence of civilization

Recall 5 key traits of civilization (Writing; advanced technology; Specialization of workers; Growth of Cities; Complex Institutions;)

Writing and learning suffered

Barbarians destroyed much of existing literature

Christians strongly supported that the only acceptable literature was the Bible

as a result, almost all education took place in church schools and monasteries

Technology

with absence of learning supported by lack of reading materials, few would have the knowledge required to make improvements

with most learning centered in the church, little interest in technological improvement

Specialization of Workers

With the absence of large trading centers (cities) there was little need for specialization and strong need of self-sufficiency (many skills required).

Cities

Barbarians destroyed many of the largest cities

Lack of Government and Trade meant there was little need to rebuild them

Complex Institutions

Barbarians destroyed the existing government

lack of large cities meant little need for larger organizations

Only significant institution left was the church

this led to the church gaining significant power throughout Europe