What Good Has Atheism Done?

[Guest amazed]

 

I do agree atheist can do good. What the atheist cannot do is to tell me why they should do so if their lives are essentially meaningless.

What happens if an atheist decides not to good and live selfishly for himself? What’s wrong with that? Who’s to say in the atheistic view it’s wrong to do this? How do you get beyond mere opinion on this?

If atheists do good, and you don't understand why, that's your problem.

 

Do a bible search for the words "Morality" and "Ethics".

 

What you seem to lack is a basic understanding of society. I help my neighbor, and I am gratified. He helps me, and I appreciate that (and thank him - not God). The desire to help others is a big part of why we can exist harmoniously. Acting selfishly is truly, in every respect, counter productive because one that acts that way will not benefit from society.

 

You are basically expressing selfish motivations, and I think you know that. If everything you do that is good is to gain brownie points with the sky-daddy (and avoid hell), then your generosity is not from within, but essentially coerced.

 

You had better start living, or you will waste your life seeking that which does not exist.

What other reason can you give to do good outside that it helps your neighbor?

The Bible tells me to do good because it ultimately matters but you don’t have that in atheism. If an atheist wants to live his life totally for himself without helping others who is to say that is wrong?

[Guest amazed]

Matthew 6

 

Giving to the Needy

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

amazed if you are expecting a reward, your left hand knows damn well what your right hand is doing. WWJD?

This is a very difficult command to follow since its in our natures of wanting to be applauded for what we do.

[bdp]

 

Those that promote such things as "God hates fags" to "burn the witch" are not speaking from the Christian Scriptures but from their own hatreds. Nowhere will you find in the Bible this kind of thing of denigrating another human being.

 

 

Yes they are speaking from scripture.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Here are the Top 10 least religious countries in the world: http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/23/least-religious-countries/

 

1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)

2. Vietnam

3. Denmark

4. Norway

5. Japan

6. Czech Republic

7. Finland

8. France

9. South Korea

10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)

 

The one that surprised me was Israel, ranking 19th, with up to 37% claiming to be non-believer, atheist, agnostic. Compare that with the United States, ranking 44th, with 3-9% non-believers, atheists, agnostics. (I think I have met them all on the streets of New York City, too.)

 

The survey concluded that "high levels of organic atheism are strongly correlated with high levels of societal health, such as low homicide rates, low poverty rates, low infant mortality rates, and low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, and gender equality. Most nations characterized by high degrees of individual and societal security have the highest rates of organic atheism, and conversely, nations characterized by low degrees of individual and societal security have the lowest rates of organic atheism. In some societies, particularly Europe, atheism is growing. However, throughout much of the world -- particularly nations with high birth rates -- atheism is barely discernable."

 

Top ten in standard of living: http://skeptically.org/economics/id21.html

1 Norway

2 Iceland

3 Australia

4 Luxembourg

5 Canada

6 Sweden

7 Switzerland

8 Ireland

9 Belgium

10 United States

 

There is not an exact correlation by any means, but as the first site says, there is a definite pattern among atheistic countries towards less crime and higher standard of living rather than more crime and less standard of living. Surely that shows you how atheism does not imply a lack of morality and rather emphasizes the growth in quality of life.

[NotBlinded]

Actually I think there are a lot atheist who self-absorbed for the mere fact their atheism gives no grounds to do good. Being an atheist makes it possible for that person to make up his own rules to live by. If he decides that helping your fellow man then who is to say that is wrong from an atheistic view?

There really is no incentive for atheist to organize and do good as the church has done for centuries. Atheism is a belief or non belief in God primarily for some of the reasons you give. Now let’s see where this non belief leads you. For one it gives you no foundation for doing good to others in the ultimate sense since this is all there is. Once you die you become worm food. Why do good to a stranger if it doesn’t really matter in the long run?

Belief in God is not a requirement to do good but without God there is no ultimate reason for doing so since it does not matter.

 

 

Have you just ignored every other response posted here today?

 

A DECENT PERSON NEEDS NO INCENTIVE TO DO GOOD! They just do it out of love and compassion for their fellow humans! What part of that concept do you not get??

 

Doing good for another person DOES matter - to that person! It doesn't need to matter to anyone else.

 

What is all this nonsense about "long-runs" and "ultimate reasons"?

 

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstein

Wilyfem, have I told you how glad I am that you have found this forum? No, well I am!

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

 

I was reading an article awhile back that found in a study that those societies that believed in hell had better standards of living and less corruption.

 

I find this very hard to believe. Even among religious countries those that have a high belief in hell include all Islamic countries and other developing nations such as Mexico and African nations and the United States. Except for the US, which is a secular nation whatever the personal beliefs of its citizens, I am certain that the other hell believing countries do not have a higher standard of living than the atheist countries like Norway and Japan.

[Guest amazed]

 

Those that promote such things as "God hates fags" to "burn the witch" are not speaking from the Christian Scriptures but from their own hatreds. Nowhere will you find in the Bible this kind of thing of denigrating another human being.

 

 

Yes they are speaking from scripture.

Do you have chapter and verse?

[Guest amazed]

 

I was reading an article awhile back that found in a study that those societies that believed in hell had better standards of living and less corruption.

 

I find this very hard to believe. Even among religious countries those that have a high belief in hell include all Islamic countries and other developing nations such as Mexico and African nations and the United States. Except for the US, which is a secular nation whatever the personal beliefs of its citizens, I am certain that the other hell believing countries do not have a higher standard of living than the atheist countries like Norway and Japan.

 

Here is the article:

Hell boosts the economy: survey

July 28, 2004 - 9:08AM

Economists searching for reasons why some nations are richer than others have found that those with a wide belief in hell are less corrupt and more prosperous, according to a report by the Federal Reserve Bank of St Louis.

Researchers at the regional branch of the US Federal Reserve acknowledged the importance of productivity and investment in the economic process but looked at some recent unconventional efforts to explain differences in national prosperity.

The St Louis Fed drew on work by outside economists who studied 35 countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India and Turkey and found that religion shed some useful light.

"In countries where where large percentages of the population believe in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living," the St Louis Fed said in its July quarterly review.

For instance, 71 per cent of the US population believe in hell and the country boasts the world's highest per capita income, according to the 2003 United Nations Human Development Report and 1990-1993 World Values Survey.

Ireland, not far behind the United States in terms of income, likewise has a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 per cent of the population acknowledging hell's existence.

"I'm not surprised," said the Reverand Eileen Lindner, deputy general secretary of the US National Council of Churches, when told of the results.

"The expectation that there is a cultural belief in hell or perpetual and eternal punishment for wrongdoing will act as a disincentive to wrongdoing," she said.

The St Louis Fed's researchers took a two-step approach to linking religion and the economy.

"A belief in hell tends to mean less corruption and less corruption tends to mean a higher per capita income," they wrote. It correlated the belief in hell findings of the World Value Series with a measure of corruption produced by Transparency International.

It then looked at the relationship between corruption and per capita gross domestic product and found "a strong tendency for countries with relatively low levels of corruption to have relatively high levels of per capita GDP."

Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study the latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up government support.

"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they do so they turn to other things," she said.

"I cannot imagine what the belief in mythological beings or things that don't exist can do for business. What about the pornographic industry? That is probably very good for growth."

- Reuters

[oddbird1963]

 

What I’m saying is that I have a ultimate meaning to my life since I will be held accountable for what I do. How I am judged will have eternal consequences. From the simplest action to what I say will have significance either in heaven or hell. I also believe that we are more than just our physical bodies. We have spirits that will live forever.

 

If God does not exist there is no ultimate value to our lives. When we die that’s it. We turn to dust and are forgotten. Our deaths will have no more significance than when a leaf falls off a tree and is forgotten. This is where atheism leads.

 

Why does there need to be ultimate value to life?

 

And why is it you don't seem to acknowledge the reason atheists do good? Once again it seems you are ignoring what people are telling you in favor of your own pre-conceived notions of what Atheists are like.

 

If you are talking in terms about the good that people do, we have provided an explanation without calling a god into the equation.

I think many of us want to live lives that matter in the ultimate sense. I think most people want to know their lives mattered for something. When we face death do you want to continue to exist or do you find comfort in non existence as dust in the ground?

I do agree atheist can do good. What the atheist cannot do is to tell me why they should do so if their lives are essentially meaningless.

What happens if an atheist decides not to good and live selfishly for himself? What’s wrong with that? Who’s to say in the atheistic view it’s wrong to do this? How do you get beyond mere opinion on this?

 

This is a matter of want vs. is, amazed.

 

We may want our lives to have ultimate meaning. We may want there to be a god to somehow tell us what that is.

 

But guess what? There is no god to tell us what the "ultimate meaning" is. You ask, "How do you get beyond the mere opinion of this," but your theistic position is mere opinion. You are probably wrong.

 

Plus, you haven't really explained what ultimate meaning is, anyway.

 

It is you who are saying that a person's life is essentially meaningless without a god. We are telling you that it is not. We make our own meaning. Where is the NECESSITY of having an ultimate meaning when making a meaning to last a lifetime is sufficient?

 

Your pessimistic view of so-called "lost" people is showing when you ask, "why they should do [good] if their lives are essentially meaningless?"

 

I will tell any person, "Do good because it helps people, saves lives, relieves distress and feels great to do so." You ought to do it because it is wrong to let suffering continue if you can help relieve it.

 

Remember, the god you posit just may not be there. You are faced with the same dilemma? Why do good? You are doing good out of fear. I am doing good out of maturity, compassion and empathy.

 

There are many christians who believe in God, attend church and show not compassion. So, there's little practical difference. Some will always help others. Many will always turn a deaf ear to their cries.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

 

I was reading an article awhile back that found in a study that those societies that believed in hell had better standards of living and less corruption.

 

I find this very hard to believe. Even among religious countries those that have a high belief in hell include all Islamic countries and other developing nations such as Mexico and African nations and the United States. Except for the US, which is a secular nation whatever the personal beliefs of its citizens, I am certain that the other hell believing countries do not have a higher standard of living than the atheist countries like Norway and Japan.

 

Here is the article:

Hell boosts the economy: survey

July 28, 2004 - 9:08AM

Economists searching for reasons why some nations are richer than others have found that those with a wide belief in hell are less corrupt and more prosperous, according to a report by the Federal Reserve Bank of St Louis.

Researchers at the regional branch of the US Federal Reserve acknowledged the importance of productivity and investment in the economic process but looked at some recent unconventional efforts to explain differences in national prosperity.

The St Louis Fed drew on work by outside economists who studied 35 countries, including the United States, European nations, Japan, India and Turkey and found that religion shed some useful light.

"In countries where where large percentages of the population believe in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living," the St Louis Fed said in its July quarterly review.

For instance, 71 per cent of the US population believe in hell and the country boasts the world's highest per capita income, according to the 2003 United Nations Human Development Report and 1990-1993 World Values Survey.

Ireland, not far behind the United States in terms of income, likewise has a healthy fear of a nether world with 53 per cent of the population acknowledging hell's existence.

"I'm not surprised," said the Reverand Eileen Lindner, deputy general secretary of the US National Council of Churches, when told of the results.

"The expectation that there is a cultural belief in hell or perpetual and eternal punishment for wrongdoing will act as a disincentive to wrongdoing," she said.

The St Louis Fed's researchers took a two-step approach to linking religion and the economy.

"A belief in hell tends to mean less corruption and less corruption tends to mean a higher per capita income," they wrote. It correlated the belief in hell findings of the World Value Series with a measure of corruption produced by Transparency International.

It then looked at the relationship between corruption and per capita gross domestic product and found "a strong tendency for countries with relatively low levels of corruption to have relatively high levels of per capita GDP."

Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study the latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up government support.

"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they do so they turn to other things," she said.

"I cannot imagine what the belief in mythological beings or things that don't exist can do for business. What about the pornographic industry? That is probably very good for growth."

- Reuters

 

This is an article about a study its not listing the numbers and countries in the data of the study itself. Besides the two countries - the US and Ireland - what other countries are they comparing to? It doesn't say. It doesn't even seem to be including middle eastern countries which is giving them biased data. I am not buying it as strong evidence for your case.

[NotBlinded]

You misunderstand me. This life has great value and that value is based on God himself who gives life.

How can you say life as being the paradise when there is so much pain, suffering and death in it?

What meaning does death have for you?

The the meaning of life is God. What is the meaning of God?

 

Would you know paradise without pain suffering and death? What is heaven? Is it a place without these things? We can only appreciate good because of the bad. What are you going to do in your reward called heaven?

 

Death means that I have an opportunity (if I know I'm dying) to awaken and experience the unity of everything even for a split second. Other than that, death means that other lives can be born and experience life anew. I'm making room for new life. Why is it you want to feel so separate from everything else that you MUST continue to exist in some way, shape or form but everything else can live, rot and die?

[NotBlinded]

Matthew 6

 

Giving to the Needy

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

amazed if you are expecting a reward, your left hand knows damn well what your right hand is doing. WWJD?

This is a very difficult command to follow since its in our natures of wanting to be applauded for what we do.

I may agree with you a little here, but as Hans pointed out elsewhere, we do this for the very feeling of doing something good to help others, not for some grand reward that caused us to act in the first place. That's like tossing a quarter to a bum and saying you did your good deed for the day...draw up another chalk mark.

 

"A good deed is its own reward."

[bdp]

 

Those that promote such things as "God hates fags" to "burn the witch" are not speaking from the Christian Scriptures but from their own hatreds. Nowhere will you find in the Bible this kind of thing of denigrating another human being.

 

 

Yes they are speaking from scripture.

Do you have chapter and verse?

 

"You shall not allow a sorceress to live." - Exodus 22:18

also Leviticus 20:27

 

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them." Leviticus 20:13

 

Do you know who you're talking to? I went to bible college, none of this is unknown to me, I've read the whole book cover to cover several times.

[Ouroboros]

Atheists are assholes. Atheists only buy things for themselves. Atheists turn the poor out on the street. Atheists caused the Crusades. Atheists caused the Holocaust. Atheists dropped the bomb. Atheists always leave the toilet seat up.

 

What are you doing here? What do you want?

What happened? Where did our soft spoken Phanta go!?

[Guest amazed]

 

What I’m saying is that I have a ultimate meaning to my life since I will be held accountable for what I do. How I am judged will have eternal consequences. From the simplest action to what I say will have significance either in heaven or hell. I also believe that we are more than just our physical bodies. We have spirits that will live forever.

 

If God does not exist there is no ultimate value to our lives. When we die that’s it. We turn to dust and are forgotten. Our deaths will have no more significance than when a leaf falls off a tree and is forgotten. This is where atheism leads.

 

Why does there need to be ultimate value to life?

 

And why is it you don't seem to acknowledge the reason atheists do good? Once again it seems you are ignoring what people are telling you in favor of your own pre-conceived notions of what Atheists are like.

 

If you are talking in terms about the good that people do, we have provided an explanation without calling a god into the equation.

I think many of us want to live lives that matter in the ultimate sense. I think most people want to know their lives mattered for something. When we face death do you want to continue to exist or do you find comfort in non existence as dust in the ground?

I do agree atheist can do good. What the atheist cannot do is to tell me why they should do so if their lives are essentially meaningless.

What happens if an atheist decides not to good and live selfishly for himself? What’s wrong with that? Who’s to say in the atheistic view it’s wrong to do this? How do you get beyond mere opinion on this?

 

This is a matter of want vs. is, amazed.

 

We may want our lives to have ultimate meaning. We may want there to be a god to somehow tell us what that is.

 

But guess what? There is no god to tell us what the "ultimate meaning" is. You ask, "How do you get beyond the mere opinion of this," but your theistic position is mere opinion. You are probably wrong.

 

Plus, you haven't really explained what ultimate meaning is, anyway.

 

It is you who are saying that a person's life is essentially meaningless without a god. We are telling you that it is not. We make our own meaning. Where is the NECESSITY of having an ultimate meaning when making a meaning to last a lifetime is sufficient?

 

Your pessimistic view of so-called "lost" people is showing when you ask, "why they should do [good] if their lives are essentially meaningless?"

 

I will tell any person, "Do good because it helps people, saves lives, relieves distress and feels great to do so." You ought to do it because it is wrong to let suffering continue if you can help relieve it.

 

Remember, the god you posit just may not be there. You are faced with the same dilemma? Why do good? You are doing good out of fear. I am doing good out of maturity, compassion and empathy.

 

There are many christians who believe in God, attend church and show not compassion. So, there's little practical difference. Some will always help others. Many will always turn a deaf ear to their cries.

How do you know there is no God to tell you that you have no ultimate meaning? If the God of the Bible exist then we have ultimate meaning. This is the basis of its teachings for what constitutes ultimate meaning for ourselves. Our lives matter in the ultimate sense because when we die we will be judged for all that we have done. From this it will be determined what our ultimate destiny will be.

We can give some meaning to our lives but we cannot give ourselves ultimate meaning since it requires something outside of ourselves to do so.

I to at times do good out of compassion etc. I also know that it ultimately matters because God sees it. The atheist cannot make such claims. He is trapped in this world and once his physical life dies that’s it. Your good deeds done even for compassionate reasons end at the grave if atheism is true.

It is true that many Christians are not compassionate. However as an institution and a force for good there is nothing that comes close to Christianities impact for good for the past 2000 years.

[Guest amazed]

 

Those that promote such things as "God hates fags" to "burn the witch" are not speaking from the Christian Scriptures but from their own hatreds. Nowhere will you find in the Bible this kind of thing of denigrating another human being.

 

 

Yes they are speaking from scripture.

Do you have chapter and verse?

 

"You shall not allow a sorceress to live." - Exodus 22:18

also Leviticus 20:27

 

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them." Leviticus 20:13

 

Do you know who you're talking to? I went to bible college, none of this is unknown to me, I've read the whole book cover to cover several times.

When you went to Bible college did your professor tell you why the nation of Israel had these laws? What was the purpose for these laws?

[bdp]

IF

 

Remove that 'if' and we'll talk.

[bdp]

 

Those that promote such things as "God hates fags" to "burn the witch" are not speaking from the Christian Scriptures but from their own hatreds. Nowhere will you find in the Bible this kind of thing of denigrating another human being.

 

 

Yes they are speaking from scripture.

Do you have chapter and verse?

 

"You shall not allow a sorceress to live." - Exodus 22:18

also Leviticus 20:27

 

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them." Leviticus 20:13

 

Do you know who you're talking to? I went to bible college, none of this is unknown to me, I've read the whole book cover to cover several times.

When you went to Bible college did your professor tell you why the nation of Israel had these laws? What was the purpose for these laws?

 

I don't believe anything my bible college teachers told me, it was all rationale. 'god' doesn't change, right? Or are you saying 'god' is cool with gays and witches?

[NotBlinded]

How do you know there is no God to tell you that you have no ultimate meaning? If the God of the Bible exist then we have ultimate meaning. This is the basis of its teachings for what constitutes ultimate meaning for ourselves. Our lives matter in the ultimate sense because when we die we will be judged for all that we have done. From this it will be determined what our ultimate destiny will be.

We can give some meaning to our lives but we cannot give ourselves ultimate meaning since it requires something outside of ourselves to do so.

I to at times do good out of compassion etc. I also know that it ultimately matters because God sees it. The atheist cannot make such claims. He is trapped in this world and once his physical life dies that’s it. Your good deeds done even for compassionate reasons end at the grave if atheism is true.

It is true that many Christians are not compassionate. However as an institution and a force for good there is nothing that comes close to Christianities impact for good for the past 2000 years.

Everything you said below the bold part is only your belief based on what you accept there. It isn't true for everyone, especially those that don't believe the bolded part. So, quit blaming atheists for not living up to your worldview. It's dumb.

[par4dcourse]

Atheists are assholes. Atheists only buy things for themselves. Atheists turn the poor out on the street. Atheists caused the Crusades. Atheists caused the Holocaust. Atheists dropped the bomb. Atheists always leave the toilet seat up.

 

What are you doing here? What do you want?

What happened? Where did our soft spoken Phanta go!?

 

I told him not to poke.......

[Guest amazed]

Matthew 6

 

Giving to the Needy

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

amazed if you are expecting a reward, your left hand knows damn well what your right hand is doing. WWJD?

This is a very difficult command to follow since its in our natures of wanting to be applauded for what we do.

I may agree with you a little here, but as Hans pointed out elsewhere, we do this for the very feeling of doing something good to help others, not for some grand reward that caused us to act in the first place. That's like tossing a quarter to a bum and saying you did your good deed for the day...draw up another chalk mark.

 

"A good deed is its own reward."

Doing good to chalk up one more mark is not what Christianity teaches as the primary motivation to do good. We are to do good to be pleasing to Christ. That is to be the ambition for all Christians. Sadly its not always the case.

[Guest amazed]

i gotta go for awhile. Hope to be back soon.

[NotBlinded]

I to at times do good out of compassion etc. I also know that it ultimately matters because God sees it. The atheist cannot make such claims. He is trapped in this world and once his physical life dies that’s it. Your good deeds done even for compassionate reasons end at the grave if atheism is true.

You know, this thought here is getting pretty damn tiresome. BFD if it ends at the grave! It only ends at the grave FOR US, not for the ones we have helped. How freakin' self-centered can you get??

[Ouroboros]

I'm broken.

 

 

I told him not to poke.......

 

 

Damn you Amazed! It's all your fault! Shame on you.

[NotBlinded]

 

Doing good to chalk up one more mark is not what Christianity teaches as the primary motivation to do good. We are to do good to be pleasing to Christ. That is to be the ambition for all Christians. Sadly its not always the case.

Oh I see...fuck the one your doing the good deed for. You don't really want to help them, you want to please Christ.

 

I'm sorry, you make me sick.