par4dcourse Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Verify that hell exists. Without the wholly babble, of course. I can't. I don't have any rocks from hell to show it exist. Do you believe that black holes exist? Science says they do but i have never seen one. Does that mean they don't because i can't see it? ?Black holes are one theory of an observed phenomena. The idea has withstood mathematical tests and has so far proved a reasonable theory. How many tests are run on the theory of hell in an average day? A gawd we can't see set up this eternal punishment for souls we can't see in a place we can't see or communicate with to torture us for sins he knew would happen unless we believe in his virgin birth son who's really him. Makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Well, Amazed, You started this thread saying that atheists have no reason to do good. Many people responded with examples of atheists who do good and personal reasons how they find meaning in life. That wasn't good enough. You refused to comment on this. There was always some petty reason why the answer wasn't good enough for you. You came back with, "How does your atheism work when life gets tough and the people you love die." Vigile, myself and others pointed out how they deal with loss and hardship from their atheistic perspective. The only response to questions YOU raised was, "I'm busy." So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists? What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss? Are you actually listening? My point in this topic was to raise the issue on what basis do atheist do good if this life is all there is. Why do good if you die and turn to dust if you do not survive death? I don't doubt atheist can do good. They do. What does not make sense is to do it if this is the only life you have and there is no ultimate meaning. What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it? If the Christian worldview is true then our lives have ultimate meaning (which only God can give) in whatever we do because we will be held accountable for it and it will determine our destinies beyond this world. Amazed, But we have told you. Over and over and over and over. You have not dealt with my questions. You've only repeated the same untrue, biased assertions over and over and over and over. We've shared with you actual , real, emotional events from our lives! Where's your humanity man? Is it lost behind the shell of preconceived notions that you keep throwing in our way? Here are some of my questions again. Try not to deflect again. So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists? What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss? Are you actually listening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 You can put it in these terms but the scripture does not describe it like this. Even if what you say were true it would not change the fact that such a place exist. You just don't get it. You don't have a fact, just a wildly fantastic conjecture. Saying it's a fact doe n't make it one. NO ONE can verify your hypothesis, therefore it is invalid. Not really. There are lots of things we believe that we cannot verify but we believe exist. Does that make these things invalid? You didn't give examples. What do "we" believe that we cannot verify? See the previous post. Maybe you should google "Black Holes Evidence" and get some real understanding of the scientific method. This still requires belief though that they exist based on these theories that i'm not sure are correct. Think about it. We are being asked to believe something that has no correctlation to this world. Science says millions of suns are in these things and its gravity is so strong light cannot escape from it and that's why we can't see them and were to believe in this kind of thing???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Well, Amazed, You started this thread saying that atheists have no reason to do good. Many people responded with examples of atheists who do good and personal reasons how they find meaning in life. That wasn't good enough. You refused to comment on this. There was always some petty reason why the answer wasn't good enough for you. You came back with, "How does your atheism work when life gets tough and the people you love die." Vigile, myself and others pointed out how they deal with loss and hardship from their atheistic perspective. The only response to questions YOU raised was, "I'm busy." So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists? What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss? Are you actually listening? My point in this topic was to raise the issue on what basis do atheist do good if this life is all there is. Why do good if you die and turn to dust if you do not survive death? I don't doubt atheist can do good. They do. What does not make sense is to do it if this is the only life you have and there is no ultimate meaning. What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it? If the Christian worldview is true then our lives have ultimate meaning (which only God can give) in whatever we do because we will be held accountable for it and it will determine our destinies beyond this world. Amazed, But we have told you. Over and over and over and over. You have not dealt with my questions. You've only repeated the same untrue, biased assertions over and over and over and over. We've shared with you actual , real, emotional events from our lives! Where's your humanity man? Is it lost behind the shell of preconceived notions that you keep throwing in our way? Here are some of my questions again. Try not to deflect again. So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists? What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss? Are you actually listening? I have to go and i will try to answer later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Verify that hell exists. Without the wholly babble, of course. I can't. I don't have any rocks from hell to show it exist. Do you believe that black holes exist? Science says they do but i have never seen one. Does that mean they don't because i can't see it? ?Black holes are one theory of an observed phenomena. The idea has withstood mathematical tests and has so far proved a reasonable theory. How many tests are run on the theory of hell in an average day? A gawd we can't see set up this eternal punishment for souls we can't see in a place we can't see or communicate with to torture us for sins he knew would happen unless we believe in his virgin birth son who's really him. Makes perfect sense. By your own methods a theory is not proof. I want to see this black hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 You can put it in these terms but the scripture does not describe it like this. Even if what you say were true it would not change the fact that such a place exist. You just don't get it. You don't have a fact, just a wildly fantastic conjecture. Saying it's a fact doe n't make it one. NO ONE can verify your hypothesis, therefore it is invalid. Not really. There are lots of things we believe that we cannot verify but we believe exist. Does that make these things invalid? You didn't give examples. What do "we" believe that we cannot verify? See the previous post. Maybe you should google "Black Holes Evidence" and get some real understanding of the scientific method. This still requires belief though that they exist based on these theories that i'm not sure are correct. Think about it. We are being asked to believe something that has no correctlation to this world. Science says millions of suns are in these things and its gravity is so strong light cannot escape from it and that's why we can't see them and were to believe in this kind of thing???? You had to go, yet you are still here 12 minutes later. Hmmmm. You really need to gain some understanding of the scientific method. I'm sorry you don't understand the physics that was used to predict black holes and the evidence that has accumulated that is consistent with the predictions. Black holes do have a correlation with this world, that is how we can accumulate the evidence for their existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Verify that hell exists. Without the wholly babble, of course. I can't. I don't have any rocks from hell to show it exist. Do you believe that black holes exist? Science says they do but i have never seen one. Does that mean they don't because i can't see it? I told you about that before and why the comparison is invalid, but this is another example of you NOT LISTENING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Not really. There are lots of things we believe that we cannot verify but we believe exist. I'm curious. Like what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I can't. I don't have any rocks from hell to show it exist. Do you believe that black holes exist? Science says they do but i have never seen one. Does that mean they don't because i can't see it? Ok. Lets go with that for a moment then. Does scientists also say that if you don't believe in these unproven black holes, not only will you fail school, but you will be put in a torture chamber for life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it? That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. In other words, it doesn't make a rats ass. Life is life. Further, as already pointed out to you, non-believers/atheists enjoy doing good, it makes their lives better. They do not need your pitiful platitudes or jerk-off gawd to have meaning in their lives. Get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 It will increase your understanding and hopefully help you see that Christians are not fools as so many here make them out to be. You mean you're NOT a "fool for Christ"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Its not easy but i'm doing the best i can. I believe you. You will have to do better. Another quick question: what does "ultimate meaning" mean? You keep using that phrase and it's not clear what you mean by it, nor why you think it's necessary. Kindly explain. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 23, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2009 It will increase your understanding and hopefully help you see that Christians are not fools as so many here make them out to be. Amazed, are you impaired in some way we're not aware of? Seriously. Pay attention - WE WERE CHRISTIANS at one time. Yes, True Christians™ who studied the Bible, taught Sunday School, pastored congregations, taught apologetics and became missionaries. We went to Bible colleges and sang in choirs. We handed out tracts and prayed for faith, hope, healing, and revival. So we have intimate knowledge of what Christians are, what they believe, and why. We disagree on what constitutes evidence, and therefore we disagree on the usefulness of Scripture to discern the truth. Scripture is the only item in your arsenal so no dialog of any consequence is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it? That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. In other words, it doesn't make a rats ass. Life is life. Further, as already pointed out to you, non-believers/atheists enjoy doing good, it makes their lives better. They do not need your pitiful platitudes or jerk-off gawd to have meaning in their lives. Get it? So you agree that it does not matter one way or another what we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 It will increase your understanding and hopefully help you see that Christians are not fools as so many here make them out to be. Amazed, are you impaired in some way we're not aware of? Seriously. Pay attention - WE WERE CHRISTIANS at one time. Yes, True Christians™ who studied the Bible, taught Sunday School, pastored congregations, taught apologetics and became missionaries. We went to Bible colleges and sang in choirs. We handed out tracts and prayed for faith, hope, healing, and revival. So we have intimate knowledge of what Christians are, what they believe, and why. We disagree on what constitutes evidence, and therefore we disagree on the usefulness of Scripture to discern the truth. Scripture is the only item in your arsenal so no dialog of any consequence is possible. What evidence for your position do you have? How does it refute my position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 It will increase your understanding and hopefully help you see that Christians are not fools as so many here make them out to be. You mean you're NOT a "fool for Christ"? i am. However i do think the informed Christian mind has an advantage that others don't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 It will increase your understanding and hopefully help you see that Christians are not fools as so many here make them out to be. You mean you're NOT a "fool for Christ"? i am. However i do think the informed Christian mind has an advantage that others don't have. My informed christian mind had the advantage that others didn't have, but it was a mirage that dissipated with studying everything I could get my hands on pertaining to the christian religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 My point in this topic was to raise the issue on what basis do atheist do good if this life is all there is. Why do good if you die and turn to dust if you do not survive death? I don't doubt atheist can do good. They do. What does not make sense is to do it if this is the only life you have and there is no ultimate meaning. What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it? I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you how a person could be driven to do good unto others without some sort of eternal carrot being dangled before them. The desire to do right by your fellow man is inborn. Empathy is something that many creatures possess - not just humans. It's stronger in some people than in others, but it's there, unless you are a clinical psychopath. And it's not something you can necessarily control. I never made some conscious decision in my life to cry when I see a person or animal being mistreated or dying. I've always been that way. I can't stand to see suffering and help when I can. The fact that my life will end and the lives of those I help will end doesn't matter. Right now I'm alive. Right now they are alive. It's all about living and doing in the "right now". Don't you see how much more precious life is when you believe that it comes to an end? How much more important it is to "do good"? I don't understand why you don't understand that there doesn't need to be an after-death reason to be a good person. I think you misunderstand what i'm saying. I agree atheist can and do good. However they have no "grounding" no transcendatal grounding to do so. There is nothing in atheism that says you will be rewarded for doing good. Nor are there any adverse consquences for not doing good either. All an atheist can say is that it feels good to do good. When i die, Christianity tells me that i will survive death and will have a greater significance and purpose beyond this world. I can live fully for a reason that transcends death. In atheism you cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 It will increase your understanding and hopefully help you see that Christians are not fools as so many here make them out to be. You mean you're NOT a "fool for Christ"? i am. However i do think the informed Christian mind has an advantage that others don't have. My informed christian mind had the advantage that others didn't have, but it was a mirage that dissipated with studying everything I could get my hands on pertaining to the christian religion. Can you give a couple of examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 When i die, Christianity tells me that i will survive death and will have a greater significance and purpose beyond this world. I can live fully for a reason that transcends death. In atheism you cannot. What greater significance and purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 When i die, Christianity tells me that i will survive death and will have a greater significance and purpose beyond this world. I can live fully for a reason that transcends death We got it already. God good, atheists bad. Anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Well, Amazed, You started this thread saying that atheists have no reason to do good. Many people responded with examples of atheists who do good and personal reasons how they find meaning in life. That wasn't good enough. You refused to comment on this. There was always some petty reason why the answer wasn't good enough for you. You came back with, "How does your atheism work when life gets tough and the people you love die." Vigile, myself and others pointed out how they deal with loss and hardship from their atheistic perspective. The only response to questions YOU raised was, "I'm busy." So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists? What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss? Are you actually listening? My point in this topic was to raise the issue on what basis do atheist do good if this life is all there is. Why do good if you die and turn to dust if you do not survive death? I don't doubt atheist can do good. They do. What does not make sense is to do it if this is the only life you have and there is no ultimate meaning. What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it? If the Christian worldview is true then our lives have ultimate meaning (which only God can give) in whatever we do because we will be held accountable for it and it will determine our destinies beyond this world. Amazed, But we have told you. Over and over and over and over. You have not dealt with my questions. You've only repeated the same untrue, biased assertions over and over and over and over. We've shared with you actual , real, emotional events from our lives! Where's your humanity man? Is it lost behind the shell of preconceived notions that you keep throwing in our way? What??? i have shared in many troubling events in people's lives here. I have been praying for those who have shared their pain. What i have tried to show that you are not alone (as atheism says you are) but you have a God who wants to comfort you and give you hope that no matter what happens here this is not the end. Here are some of my questions again. Try not to deflect again. So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists? No and i never have. I'm trying to show where atheism leads and its inablity to give anyone hope. What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss?Pretty much tough it out. What can they when their worldview tells them this is all you have and there is no supernatural help? Are you actually listening? Yes but its easy to overlook things also. This is true of all of us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 When i die, Christianity tells me that i will survive death and will have a greater significance and purpose beyond this world. I can live fully for a reason that transcends death. In atheism you cannot. What greater significance and purpose? In heaven where the scriptures tell me that there are great things that await. The mere fact that Christ died for us should tell you that you have great significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverDale Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Amazed, some of us feel, or let me just say I feel, that this life is all I have to give to society. If I want to be a mean old man, hoard everything for myself, fine. I don't have to worry about going to hell anyway. The thing is, our name lives on for at least a little while to those who know us. I am not doing good so I can go to heaven, I am doing good so hopefully I will be missed when I am gone. I don't need god for that. It seems so shallow that the only reason you feel charity is worthwhile is because of pie in the sky. Gotta hand it to you, not listening has helped you hang on here and made for lively debate. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 When i die, Christianity tells me that i will survive death and will have a greater significance and purpose beyond this world. I can live fully for a reason that transcends death We got it already. God good, atheists bad. Anything else? Huh???/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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