What Good Has Atheism Done?

[Guest amazed]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

We have and were not done yet.

 

I am. I already told you 'hope' is an absurd concept to me. Yes I'm going to die. I don't despair over that. I'm not going to live forever. That's a fact. I'm fine with it.

Do you have close loved ones? If so, how would you deal if one of them died (especially if they are young)? Could you live without the hope of never seeing them again?

 

I mentioned this once, but here goes again - my father died in 1988, just over 50 years of age. I almost never think of him anymore. He's gone, I'll never see him again, and that's okay. All my grandparents are gone, a cousin of mine blew her own head off - they're gone. I'm fine with that - I'll be gone one day too.

Do you have children?

[bdp]

 

Do you have children?

 

nope, not married, never have been - I do have nieces and nephews.

[oddbird1963]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

We have and were not done yet.

 

I am. I already told you 'hope' is an absurd concept to me. Yes I'm going to die. I don't despair over that. I'm not going to live forever. That's a fact. I'm fine with it.

Do you have close loved ones? If so, how would you deal if one of them died (especially if they are young)? Could you live without the hope of never seeing them again?

Ooop!! Here we go!!

 

Amazed, you have been given at least two examples of atheists dealing with a loved one's death without any reference to your god and his heaven or any hope of heaven.

 

But, you refused to recognize that. You recast our personal situations as just gutting it out. For you , it didn't count, event though we did not present a horrible, negative desperate scenario. I must ask you once again, "Where is your humanity. We tell you of our personal losses and you twist and manipulate them to force fit you depiction of it into your preconceived notions.

 

NOW, you move the goal post. ". . . especially if they are young. . ."

 

And look at you!! "Do you have children?" You are turning out to be one sick puppy.

 

You are trying to grab people at their most vulnerable, shake their certainty and get them to cry and wail over the loss of children who are innocent. "Surely there must be a heaven for them!! So, god must exist!! You manipulative twit!!

 

You are not listening. Your religion has made you a pretty awful person, amazing!

[Guest amazed]

 

Do you have children?

 

nope, not married, never have been - I do have nieces and nephews.

When i had my own children it changed me. There something different about it and more powerful.

[Guest ephymeris]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

We have and were not done yet.

 

I am. I already told you 'hope' is an absurd concept to me. Yes I'm going to die. I don't despair over that. I'm not going to live forever. That's a fact. I'm fine with it.

Do you have close loved ones? If so, how would you deal if one of them died (especially if they are young)? Could you live without the hope of never seeing them again?

Ooop!! Here we go!!

 

Amazed, you have been given at least two examples of atheists dealing with a loved one's death without any reference to your god and his heaven or any hope of heaven.

 

But, you refused to recognize that. You recast our personal situations as just gutting it out. For you , it didn't count, event though we did not present a horrible, negative desperate scenario. I must ask you once again, "Where is your humanity. We tell you of our personal losses and you twist and manipulate them to force fit you depiction of it into your preconceived notions.

 

NOW, you move the goal post. ". . . especially if they are young. . ." I hope you aren't given an answer. Because I fully expect you will do bdp a horrible disservice by not acknowledging his losses as a deeply human, deeply personal loss.

 

You are not listening. Your religion has made you pretty awful, amazing!

 

 

Agreed, I gave him an example of my feelings regarding the death of my very close personal friend in September and how I have dealt with his incredibly unexpected death, only to be ignored in the Atheists/death thread on this forum. It was apparently not interesting to him that I have found a peace regarding death as an atheist that I never had as a christian. It is actually very reassuring to me to think that the final destination for me and my loved ones is not eternal life but eternal non-existance.

[Guest amazed]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

We have and were not done yet.

 

I am. I already told you 'hope' is an absurd concept to me. Yes I'm going to die. I don't despair over that. I'm not going to live forever. That's a fact. I'm fine with it.

Do you have close loved ones? If so, how would you deal if one of them died (especially if they are young)? Could you live without the hope of never seeing them again?

Ooop!! Here we go!!

 

Amazed, you have been given at least two examples of atheists dealing with a loved one's death without any reference to your god and his heaven or any hope of heaven.

 

But, you refused to recognize that. You recast our personal situations as just gutting it out. For you , it didn't count, event though we did not present a horrible, negative desperate scenario. I must ask you once again, "Where is your humanity. We tell you of our personal losses and you twist and manipulate them to force fit you depiction of it into your preconceived notions.

 

NOW, you move the goal post. ". . . especially if they are young. . ."

 

And look at you!! "Do you have children?" You are turning out to be one sick puppy.

 

You are trying to grab people at their most vulnerable, shake their certainty and get them to cry and wail over the loss of children who are innocent. "Surely there must be a heaven for them!! So, god must exist!! You manipulative twit!!

 

You are not listening. Your religion has made you a pretty awful person, amazing!

I don't agree. Better to see the implications what we believe now than to wait. Don't be angry with me. Be angry at atheism that robs people of any hope and strength in a time of need.

[agnosticator]

Don't be angry with me. Be angry at atheism that robs people of any hope and strength in a time of need.

 

 

I feel as though I am within a Looney Toons cartoon show.

[godlessgrrl]

Snipped a bit again so I don't muck up quote tags.

 

We need someone more powerful, more loving, more knowledgeable, our Creator to give us meaning. Only He can do so. We also need to live forever because this involves the judgement for our lives which will determine our ultimate destiny.

 

Mmmmkay... again this is helpful in understanding what you think, but that's still not quite what I'm driving at.

 

Why do we need an external creator to give us meaning?

 

Why do we need to live forever?

 

Its been implanted in us by the Creator. We have the image of God in us and part of that image i think implies the idea of having meaning in our being. We are more than meat machines who just live whatever lives we can and then die. We are made for much much more than what this life can offer. (This is a difficult concept to explain and i hope i'm not being to confusing)

 

Nah, you're not being too confusing, but I think we're talking past each other.

 

 

I'm referring to all of mankind. There are common traits to all of us. I don't think people realize this until later in life when there is more time to reflect. [...] I'm referring to a universal need that i do believe is true of everyone. I also believe that those who believe their lives are really meaningless do die or at least live empty lives.

 

That's mighty insulting of you.

 

Lie to myself and say i do matter. But evenually the true would come in again and i would have to fight it.

 

See, this is what I'd find sad, that you feel you'd be lying to yourself, and that you feel you wouldn't matter.

 

Believe me, if you have friends and loved ones, you do matter, in a very real, tangible way.

 

I hope you are forunate to continue to do so. What would you say to someone who is dying of cancer or has lost a child with your philosphy? What would you say to give them hope?

 

Well since my current life philosophy is a form of utilitarianism (with a mind towards reducing suffering where possible), I'd probably tell someone going through a loss that I was very sorry about what they were going through. I'd ask what I could do to help them and I'd listen to what they wanted to tell me. If they asked me to do something to help them and I could do it, I would.

 

If they wanted hope in an afterlife, they'd have to talk to their spiritual advisor about that, and I'd say so. If they wanted hope in a cure, they'd have to talk to their doctors about that, and I'd say so.

 

We all have a common Creator and are made the same i.e. human. Its part of our natures.

 

Hmm. That's still rather self-absorbed. I mean there are definitely human commonalities and common human needs, pretty basic ones like food and shelter and personal safety. Going beyond that, though, the commonalities start to break down. It's probably reasonable to say that a lot of people need some sort of spirituality, but it isn't reasonable to think that everybody does.

 

So I don't get the self-centeredness of your position on human spirituality. But maybe I just won't get it.

[Guest amazed]

Don't be angry with me. Be angry at atheism that robs people of any hope and strength in a time of need.

 

 

I feel as though I am within a Looney Toons cartoon show.

me to.....

[bdp]

 

Do you have children?

 

nope, not married, never have been - I do have nieces and nephews.

When i had my own children it changed me. There something different about it and more powerful.

 

I'm never having any.

[bdp]

Be angry at atheism that robs people of any hope and strength in a time of need.

 

This is nonsense.

[Snakefoot]

What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it?

 

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

In other words, it doesn't make a rats ass. Life is life.

 

Further, as already pointed out to you, non-believers/atheists enjoy doing good, it makes their lives better. They do not need your pitiful platitudes or jerk-off gawd to have meaning in their lives.

 

Get it?

So you agree that it does not matter one way or another what we do?

 

I matters in this life only.

[oddbird1963]

Well, Amazed,

 

You started this thread saying that atheists have no reason to do good.

 

Many people responded with examples of atheists who do good and personal reasons how they find meaning in life.

 

 

That wasn't good enough. You refused to comment on this. There was always some petty reason why the answer wasn't good enough for you.

 

 

You came back with, "How does your atheism work when life gets tough and the people you love die."

 

Vigile, myself and others pointed out how they deal with loss and hardship from their atheistic perspective.

 

The only response to questions YOU raised was, "I'm busy."

 

So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists?

 

What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss?

 

Are you actually listening?

My point in this topic was to raise the issue on what basis do atheist do good if this life is all there is. Why do good if you die and turn to dust if you do not survive death? I don't doubt atheist can do good. They do. What does not make sense is to do it if this is the only life you have and there is no ultimate meaning. What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it?

 

If the Christian worldview is true then our lives have ultimate meaning (which only God can give) in whatever we do because we will be held accountable for it and it will determine our destinies beyond this world.

 

Amazed,

 

But we have told you. Over and over and over and over.

 

You have not dealt with my questions. You've only repeated the same untrue, biased assertions over and over and over and over.

 

We've shared with you actual , real, emotional events from our lives! Where's your humanity man? Is it lost behind the shell of preconceived notions that you keep throwing in our way?

What??? i have shared in many troubling events in people's lives here. I have been praying for those who have shared their pain. What i have tried to show that you are not alone (as atheism says you are) but you have a God who wants to comfort you and give you hope that no matter what happens here this is not the end.

 

Well, let me see. Up until now you have not engaged me about the loss of my uncle, Or Vigile about the loss of his (as far as I now). You did blow past us like some twisted individual in a hunt for dead children to manipulate people over.

 

You prayed? Big deal! We're atheists!! Prayer is the same thing as sitting on your knees and doing nothing.

 

You should engage atheists in actual dialog, not in repetitive platitudes and condescension.

 

Here are some of my questions again. Try not to deflect again.

 

 

1. So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists?

No and i never have. I'm trying to show where atheism leads and its inablity to give anyone hope.
 
This is practically an admission that you have preconceived notions. So, you're trying to win a debate. Not have an honest dialog between humans as equals.

 

What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss?

Pretty much tough it out. What can they when their worldview tells them this is all you have and there is no supernatural help?
 
NO! That is your skewed interpretation based on your preconceived notions of atheism. You have a script you want to follow and a role for us atheists to play.
 
I said atheists grieved like everyone else. The process is natural and organic. It hurts, but it is possible to come out just fine without a god belief or a "hope" for heaven. You twisted that to "Pretty much tough it out."
 

Are you actually listening?

Yes but its easy to overlook things also. This is true of all of us here.

 

It is more true of you, more than anyone else here.

[Guest amazed]

Well, Amazed,

 

You started this thread saying that atheists have no reason to do good.

 

Many people responded with examples of atheists who do good and personal reasons how they find meaning in life.

 

 

That wasn't good enough. You refused to comment on this. There was always some petty reason why the answer wasn't good enough for you.

 

 

You came back with, "How does your atheism work when life gets tough and the people you love die."

 

Vigile, myself and others pointed out how they deal with loss and hardship from their atheistic perspective.

 

The only response to questions YOU raised was, "I'm busy."

 

So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists?

 

What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss?

 

Are you actually listening?

My point in this topic was to raise the issue on what basis do atheist do good if this life is all there is. Why do good if you die and turn to dust if you do not survive death? I don't doubt atheist can do good. They do. What does not make sense is to do it if this is the only life you have and there is no ultimate meaning. What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it?

 

If the Christian worldview is true then our lives have ultimate meaning (which only God can give) in whatever we do because we will be held accountable for it and it will determine our destinies beyond this world.

 

Amazed,

 

But we have told you. Over and over and over and over.

 

You have not dealt with my questions. You've only repeated the same untrue, biased assertions over and over and over and over.

 

We've shared with you actual , real, emotional events from our lives! Where's your humanity man? Is it lost behind the shell of preconceived notions that you keep throwing in our way?

What??? i have shared in many troubling events in people's lives here. I have been praying for those who have shared their pain. What i have tried to show that you are not alone (as atheism says you are) but you have a God who wants to comfort you and give you hope that no matter what happens here this is not the end.

 

Well, let me see. Up until now you have not engaged me about the loss of my uncle, Or Vigile about the loss of his (as far as I now). You did blow past us like some twisted individual in a hunt for dead children to manipulate people over.

 

You prayed? Big deal! We're atheists!! Prayer is the same thing as sitting on your knees and doing nothing.

 

You should engage atheists in actual dialog, not in repetitive platitudes and condescension.

 

Here are some of my questions again. Try not to deflect again.

 

1. 
    
   
2. So, are you still trying to force fit all us atheists into your Christian pre-conceived notion of atheists?

No and i never have. I'm trying to show where atheism leads and its inablity to give anyone hope.
 
This is practically an admission that you have preconceived notions. So, you're trying to win a debate. Not have an honest dialog between humans as equals.

 

What have you been told by atheists from this site about how we deal with 1) meaning 2) hardship and 3) loss?

Pretty much tough it out. What can they when their worldview tells them this is all you have and there is no supernatural help?
 
NO! That is your skewed interpretation based on your preconceived notions of atheism. You have a script you want to follow and a role for us atheists to play.
 
I said atheists grieved like everyone else. The process is natural and organic. It hurts, but it is possible to come out just fine without a god belief or a "hope" for heaven. You twisted that to "Pretty much tough it out."
 

Are you actually listening?

Yes but its easy to overlook things also. This is true of all of us here.

 

It is more true of you, more than anyone else here.

Where is the hope in atheism? How can you have any hope knowing that this life is all there is? This is not twisting as you accuse me of but a fact of atheism. Are you actually listening?

[oddbird1963]

 

I don't agree. Better to see the implications what we believe now than to wait. Don't be angry with me. Be angry at atheism that robs people of any hope and strength in a time of need.

 

Now you're being condescending, Amazing!

 

YOU are being an insincere, Amazing. Of course I am angry with you.

 

Atheism has nothing to do with it. You don't deal with people as people. Atheism didn't do that to you. Your faith did, maybe. But you have the personal responsibility for it.

[Ouroboros]

Are you actually listening?

Are you?

[bdp]

 

Where is the hope in atheism? How can you have any hope knowing that this life is all there is? This is not twisting as you accuse me of but a fact of atheism. Are you actually listening?

 

Hope for what? Yes, this life is all there is - so what.

[Guest amazed]

Sure you can give and it helps temporarily but ultimately it does not matter.

 

Giving is only supposed to help temporarily and matter temporarily. It is not meant to matter "ultimately".

 

You have unrealistic expectations of the result of giving.

This is a major difference between us.

[godlessgrrl]

Just for the record, it is possible to be an atheist and still believe in an afterlife. See here.

 

I don't, but it's possible.

 

If you want hope in an afterlife, you don't need a belief in god to have it.

[Guest amazed]

Are you actually listening?

Are you?

Yes, but i don't think many want to face up to the ramifications of their worldviews.

[Guest amazed]

There are 2 different kinds of meaning were discussing. One is the meaning we give to what we do with our lives that we tell ourselves it matters. This is important and healthy. What you cannot do is to give yourself ultimate meaning. Atheism has no way to offer anyone that because everything ends at death.

 

 

What you don't get is that, regardless of how hard you believe some fairy tale to be true, your life does not have any "ultimate" meaning either! Christianity has nothing to offer but LIES and it ends at death as well!

Hopefully you can do better than this.

[oddbird1963]

 

Where is the hope in atheism? How can you have any hope knowing that this life is all there is? This is not twisting as you accuse me of but a fact of atheism. Are you actually listening?

 

You see, now you are just deflecting again. You're trying to put the hot potato back in my lap. But you can keep it.

 

The kind of Christian heavenly hope you're trying to peddle is unnecessary. You have the "testimony" of many many people on this site.

 

I'm sorry it burns for you. But we have described it to you using actual accounts from our lives.

 

You just ain't listening. People don't mean a thing to you unless you can fit them into your skewed, Christian worldview.

 

OB '63

[florduh]

I can't do this anymore.

[oddbird1963]

Just for the record, it is possible to be an atheist and still believe in an afterlife. See here.

 

I don't, but it's possible.

 

If you want hope in an afterlife, you don't need a belief in god to have it.

 

 

Great point Gwenmead!!!

 

I had forgotten about that. Someone had posted a remark like that months ago.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, but i don't think many want to face up to the ramifications of their worldviews.

How so? Considering that most of us were Christians for most of our lives and then lost our faith and realized it was all bogus. It wasn't fear of facing the worldview, it was a realization that only one view made sense.

 

And you're not listening to what we're saying. We've said this now hundred times, and that's no exaggeration. You're the one not listening. You're blind and deaf. And you will never understand as long as you keep your blindfolds on.