What Good Has Atheism Done?

[Guest amazed]

Amazed, some of us feel, or let me just say I feel, that this life is all I have to give to society. If I want to be a mean old man, hoard everything for myself, fine. I don't have to worry about going to hell anyway. The thing is, our name lives on for at least a little while to those who know us. I am not doing good so I can go to heaven, I am doing good so hopefully I will be missed when I am gone. I don't need god for that. It seems so shallow that the only reason you feel charity is worthwhile is because of pie in the sky.

Gotta hand it to you, not listening has helped you hang on here and made for lively debate. Thanks.

We are made for much more than what you write here. You have no real hope. Its not pie in the sky for the mere fact God sent Christ to die for us to have eternal life and to have it abundantly.

[Guest amazed]

I think you misunderstand what i'm saying. I agree atheist can and do good. However they have no "grounding" no transcendatal grounding to do so. There is nothing in atheism that says you will be rewarded for doing good. Nor are there any adverse consquences for not doing good either. All an atheist can say is that it feels good to do good.

 

When i die, Christianity tells me that i will survive death and will have a greater significance and purpose beyond this world. I can live fully for a reason that transcends death. In atheism you cannot.

 

 

It's not an question about ability to do good. It never has been. It's a question of what drives you to do good. I've already explained what drives me as an atheist to do good. You've explained what drives you. We've both illustrated the differences.

 

I guess I don't understand what you are getting at. A Christian's reasons for doing good are different from an atheist's reasons. We've established that (more than once). So why do you continue to push the subject? What other answer are you waiting for?

You are not the only one i'm dialoguing with and they have different perspectives. There are other issues involved in this.

[RiverDale]

So what I do to help others goes for naught? Does my name mean nothing to me? That I know is real. So I do not appreciate the cast off of having no real hope.

How do you deal with Muslim charities? How about Morman charities? How about Jewish charities? None of them center around a bloody sacrifice, do their works mean less?

[agnosticator]

Can you give a couple of examples?

I studied many christian books besides the Bible. Then I studied other opinions. Things popped out at me as the varying views in the bible were reflected by various christian writers. Conservative ones were more literal and harshly simplistic in interpretations, while the liberals would excuse certain passages that were conflicting with modern views of many moral dilemmas.

 

A very basic concept in the bible that changed me is justice. Justice as divine command and power vs. justice as fairness (modern and secular). Morality also as heaven/hell vs. how we treat each other (secular). God is not fair or morally righteous in the Bible. He is just powerful and demanding.

 

Jesus went along with all this, and participates in it (hell and condemnation). There is no concept of justice in the New Testament-just vengeance. Being just is referring to salvation-not morals.

 

There is much more, and it took me a while to decide which ones to mention.

[Guest amazed]

So what I do to help others goes for naught? Does my name mean nothing to me? That I know is real. So I do not appreciate the cast off of having no real hope.

In atheism there is no hope. It has none since there is no God to hope in. No hope of survival after death. No hope that once you die it means anything after a 100 years and you are forgotten. No hope that your life has ulitmate value for eternity.

 

 

How do you deal with Muslim charities? How about Morman charities? How about Jewish charities? None of them center around a bloody sacrifice, do their works mean less?

 

Sure you can give and it helps temporarily but ultimately it does not matter.

[agnosticator]

The mere fact that Christ died for us should tell you that you have great significance.

 

 

So the story goes...the significance is that he condemned many more than he saved. He saved only the obedient slaves of his god.

[Guest amazed]

Can you give a couple of examples?

I studied many christian books besides the Bible. Then I studied other opinions. Things popped out at me as the varying views in the bible were reflected by various christian writers. Conservative ones were more literal and harshly simplistic in interpretations, while the liberals would excuse certain passages that were conflicting with modern views of many moral dilemmas.

 

A very basic concept in the bible that changed me is justice. Justice as divine command and power vs. justice as fairness (modern and secular). Morality also as heaven/hell vs. how we treat each other (secular). God is not fair or morally righteous in the Bible. He is just powerful and demanding.

 

Jesus went along with all this, and participates in it (hell and condemnation). There is no concept of justice in the New Testament-just vengeance. Being just is referring to salvation-not morals.

 

There is much more, and it took me a while to decide which ones to mention.

Have you ever studied in Deuteronomy how justice was to be administered? I would also encourage you to read Romans 13 on how Christians were to live under the governing aurhoties.

[godlessgrrl]

My point in this topic was to raise the issue on what basis do atheist do good if this life is all there is. Why do good if you die and turn to dust if you do not survive death?

 

You have been given an answer to this question multiple times.

 

I don't doubt atheist can do good. They do. What does not make sense is to do it if this is the only life you have and there is no ultimate meaning.

 

You have been given an answer to this question multiple times.

 

What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it?

 

What do you mean by "ultimate sense"?

 

If the Christian worldview is true then our lives have ultimate meaning (which only God can give) in whatever we do because we will be held accountable for it and it will determine our destinies beyond this world.

 

What is "ultimate meaning" and why is it necessary?

 

I think you misunderstand what i'm saying. I agree atheist can and do good. However they have no "grounding" no transcendatal grounding to do so.

 

So what? We don't need any such "grounding".

 

There is nothing in atheism that says you will be rewarded for doing good. Nor are there any adverse consquences for not doing good either. All an atheist can say is that it feels good to do good.

 

So what? We don't need a reward. If one comes, that's nice, but it's not required.

 

I can think of plenty of adverse consequences for "not doing good".

 

When i die, Christianity tells me that i will survive death and will have a greater significance and purpose beyond this world. I can live fully for a reason that transcends death. In atheism you cannot.

 

Sure, Christianity does tell you that. It's probably wrong, but if it comforts you to believe it anyway, then go for it.

 

Here's an interesting thought perhaps you haven't pondered, but which I invite you to try on for a little while: as an atheist I don't think there is a god, but that isn't limited to some recent time period. I don't think there's ever been a god.

 

If you're willing to entertain that possibility for a moment, by your own reasoning that means that your life is meaningless too, in this ill-defined "ultimate" sense you keep talking about. It means that while good actions done in the name of any given religion still were good as far as how they impacted real live people in the real world (say, with charitable giving, for instance), none of them piled up any sort of points with any deity that one could redeem in the afterlife. You and your actions have no "greater significance and purpose beyond this world", and they never have - for any Christian who ever lived. You have no "hope", either - at least none in an afterlife.

 

Assume, just for a mental exercise, that this is true, and suddenly you know it and understand it with every fiber of your being.

 

What do you do next?

[Guest amazed]

The mere fact that Christ died for us should tell you that you have great significance.

 

 

So the story goes...the significance is that he condemned many more than he saved. He saved only the obedient slaves of his god.

You can doubt all you want but its going to take more than what you offer to dismiss it. The other significant thing that gives us significance is that we have the image of God in us. To think that the Creator would do such a thing to His creatures is absolutely mind-boggling. Now i don't expect you to believe this. On what basis are you more significant than a plant or animal? Or maybe you are not. Which is it?

[agnosticator]

Have you ever studied in Deuteronomy how justice was to be administered?

 

Justice is used in the O.T., yes, but in the N.T. justice is absent. It is repaced by vengeance. Being justified is about salvation. Earthly justice is another animal. Submitting to authority has nothing to do with the vengeance of the christian god. This god doesn't use justice.

[bdp]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

[agnosticator]

The mere fact that Christ died for us should tell you that you have great significance.

 

 

So the story goes...the significance is that he condemned many more than he saved. He saved only the obedient slaves of his god.

You can doubt all you want but its going to take more than what you offer to dismiss it.

 

You mean for you to dismiss it?

 

On what basis are you more significant than a plant or animal? Or maybe you are not. Which is it?

 

I don't believe you asked such a silly question.

[Ouroboros]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

I hope something will sink in eventually. Before I explode.

[Guest amazed]

My point in this topic was to raise the issue on what basis do atheist do good if this life is all there is. Why do good if you die and turn to dust if you do not survive death?

 

You have been given an answer to this question multiple times.

 

I don't doubt atheist can do good. They do. What does not make sense is to do it if this is the only life you have and there is no ultimate meaning.

 

You have been given an answer to this question multiple times.

 

What difference is there in the ultimate sense between the individual who does good here and another who does not and lives a total selfish life and then they die and that's it?

 

What do you mean by "ultimate sense"?

Where your life matters not only in this world but the next. This can only be true if God exist and we live forever. We need at least these 2 qualities. We cannot give ourselves ultimate meaning but it can only be given to us by a being who is greater and eternal.

 

name='amazed']If the Christian worldview is true then our lives have ultimate meaning (which only God can give) in whatever we do because we will be held accountable for it and it will determine our destinies beyond this world.

 

 

What is "ultimate meaning" and why is it necessary?

We are made for it though many suppress it.

 

'amazed']I think you misunderstand what i'm saying. I agree atheist can and do good. However they have no "grounding" no transcendatal grounding to do so.

 

So what? We don't need any such "grounding".

Sure you do. Once you really grasp this it will make you realize that you do matter, Without it, you have no hope.

'amazed']There is nothing in atheism that says you will be rewarded for doing good. Nor are there any adverse consquences for not doing good either. All an atheist can say is that it feels good to do good.

 

So what? We don't need a reward. If one comes, that's nice, but it's not required.

We are made to want reward i.e. meaning in what we do. Not only in the little things but in the bigger issues of life. There is no getting around this. Those who think there lives are meaningless die.

 

I can think of plenty of adverse consequences for "not doing good".

i can to.

 

'amazed']When i die, Christianity tells me that i will survive death and will have a greater significance and purpose beyond this world. I can live fully for a reason that transcends death. In atheism you cannot.

 

Sure, Christianity does tell you that. It's probably wrong, but if it comforts you to believe it anyway, then go for it

.

You are going to have to do better than this than to tell me its probably wrong. I'm claiming and give you many good reasons to believe Christianity is true and gives hope. This cannot be done with atheism.

 

Here's an interesting thought perhaps you haven't pondered, but which I invite you to try on for a little while: as an atheist I don't think there is a god, but that isn't limited to some recent time period. I don't think there's ever been a god.

 

If you're willing to entertain that possibility for a moment, by your own reasoning that means that your life is meaningless too, in this ill-defined "ultimate" sense you keep talking about. It means that while good actions done in the name of any given religion still were good as far as how they impacted real live people in the real world (say, with charitable giving, for instance), none of them piled up any sort of points with any deity that one could redeem in the afterlife. You and your actions have no "greater significance and purpose beyond this world", and they never have - for any Christian who ever lived. You have no "hope", either - at least none in an afterlife.

 

Assume, just for a mental exercise, that this is true, and suddenly you know it and understand it with every fiber of your being.

 

What do you do next?

I would be in despair. This is aweful if it were true.

[Guest amazed]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

We have and were not done yet.

[agnosticator]

Those who think there lives are meaningless die.

 

 

You have just admitted we live meaningful lives without your god.

[bdp]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

We have and were not done yet.

 

I am. I already told you 'hope' is an absurd concept to me. Yes I'm going to die. I don't despair over that. I'm not going to live forever. That's a fact. I'm fine with it.

[Guest amazed]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

I hope something will sink in eventually. Before I explode.

Me to....

[Guest amazed]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

We have and were not done yet.

 

I am. I already told you 'hope' is an absurd concept to me. Yes I'm going to die. I don't despair over that. I'm not going to live forever. That's a fact. I'm fine with it.

Do you have close loved ones? If so, how would you deal if one of them died (especially if they are young)? Could you live without the hope of never seeing them again?

[Guest amazed]

Those who think there lives are meaningless die.

 

 

You have just admitted we live meaningful lives without your god.

There are 2 different kinds of meaning were discussing. One is the meaning we give to what we do with our lives that we tell ourselves it matters. This is important and healthy. What you cannot do is to give yourself ultimate meaning. Atheism has no way to offer anyone that because everything ends at death.

[godlessgrrl]

Snipped some of this for greater brevity. And with any luck haven't completely murdered the quote tags...

 

Where your life matters not only in this world but the next.

 

Okay. I'll assume this is what you mean whenever I see you use "ultimate meaning" from here on out. OK?

 

This can only be true if God exist and we live forever. We need at least these 2 qualities.

 

Why?

 

We are made for it though many suppress it.

 

Okay, this spells out your opinion but doesn't really answer the question. WHY is ultimate meaning necessary?

 

Sure you do. Once you really grasp this it will make you realize that you do matter, Without it, you have no hope.

 

I think I know what I need better than you do, thank you very much.

 

I don't need the "grounding" you describe. You are welcome to disbelieve that, if it comforts you. But don't be so rude as to assume you really know what anyone other than yourself needs.

 

We are made to want reward i.e. meaning in what we do. Not only in the little things but in the bigger issues of life. There is no getting around this. Those who think there lives are meaningless die.

 

If YOU want eternal reward for what you do, fine. Don't define everyone else by what YOU want. It simply isn't true.

 

If you're interested in truth, you'll listen and accept that, along with everything else we've been telling you about who we are and what we think.

 

Those who think their lives are meaningful die, too. Last I checked the death rate for humans was 100%.

 

I would be in despair. This is aweful if it were true.

 

Okay. So you would be in despair. Fair 'nuff. Then what would you do?

 

Realizing there isn't a god actually isn't that bad though. I've managed to cope with it pretty well.

 

By the way, why do you seem to think that the things you need spiritually are what everybody else needs too?

[bdp]

"...hope..."

 

thought we dealt with this already?

We have and were not done yet.

 

I am. I already told you 'hope' is an absurd concept to me. Yes I'm going to die. I don't despair over that. I'm not going to live forever. That's a fact. I'm fine with it.

Do you have close loved ones? If so, how would you deal if one of them died (especially if they are young)? Could you live without the hope of never seeing them again?

 

I mentioned this once, but here goes again - my father died in 1988, just over 50 years of age. I almost never think of him anymore. He's gone, I'll never see him again, and that's okay. All my grandparents are gone, a cousin of mine blew her own head off - they're gone. I'm fine with that - I'll be gone one day too.

[godlessgrrl]

Do you have close loved ones? If so, how would you deal if one of them died (especially if they are young)? Could you live without the hope of never seeing them again?

 

Yes. I do every day.

 

Bit of a bummer, but it works just fine.

 

There are 2 different kinds of meaning were discussing. One is the meaning we give to what we do with our lives that we tell ourselves it matters. This is important and healthy. What you cannot do is to give yourself ultimate meaning. Atheism has no way to offer anyone that because everything ends at death.

 

So?

[agnosticator]

There are 2 different kinds of meaning were discussing. One is the meaning we give to what we do with our lives that we tell ourselves it matters. This is important and healthy. What you cannot do is to give yourself ultimate meaning. Atheism has no way to offer anyone that because everything ends at death.

 

So, when I was a born again christian, I possessed ultimate meaning because I believed it to be true. By faith I believed it but had no objective here-and-now possession of it. So really, the nonbeliever and believer are in the same boat. They both don't know for sure if there IS ultimate meaning. The believer has faith that it exists.

[Guest amazed]

name='gwenmead' date='23 November 2009 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1259027721' post='507669']

Snipped some of this for greater brevity. And with any luck haven't completely murdered the quote tags...

 

Where your life matters not only in this world but the next.

 

Okay. I'll assume this is what you mean whenever I see you use "ultimate meaning" from here on out. OK?

 

'amazed']This can only be true if God exist and we live forever. We need at least these 2 qualities.

 

Why?

We need someone more powerful, more loving, more knowledgeable, our Creator to give us meaning. Only He can do so. We also need to live forever because this involves the judgement for our lives which will determine our ultimate destiny.

 

 

 

='amazed']We are made for it though many suppress it.

 

Okay, this spells out your opinion but doesn't really answer the question. WHY is ultimate meaning necessary?

Its been implanted in us by the Creator. We have the image of God in us and part of that image i think implies the idea of having meaning in our being. We are more than meat machines who just live whatever lives we can and then die. We are made for much much more than what this life can offer. (This is a difficult concept to explain and i hope i'm not being to confusing)

 

'amazed']Sure you do. Once you really grasp this it will make you realize that you do matter, Without it, you have no hope.

 

 

I think I know what I need better than you do, thank you very much.

 

 

I don't need the "grounding" you describe. You are welcome to disbelieve that, if it comforts you. But don't be so rude as to assume you really know what anyone other than yourself needs.

I'm referring to all of mankind. There are common traits to all of us. I don't think people realize this until later in life when there is more time to reflect.

 

name='amazed']We are made to want reward i.e. meaning in what we do. Not only in the little things but in the bigger issues of life. There is no getting around this. Those who think there lives are meaningless die.

 

If YOU want eternal reward for what you do, fine. Don't define everyone else by what YOU want. It simply isn't true.

 

If you're interested in truth, you'll listen and accept that, along with everything else we've been telling you about who we are and what we think.

 

Those who think their lives are meaningful die, too. Last I checked the death rate for humans was 100%.

I'm referring to a universal need that i do believe is true of everyone. I also believe that those who believe their lives are really meaningless do die or at least live empty lives.

 

'amazed']

I would be in despair. This is aweful if it were true.

 

Okay. So you would be in despair. Fair 'nuff. Then what would you do?

Lie to myself and say i do matter. But evenually the true would come in again and i would have to fight it.

 

Realizing there isn't a god actually isn't that bad though. I've managed to cope with it pretty well.

I hope you are forunate to continue to do so. What would you say to someone who is dying of cancer or has lost a child with your philosphy? What would you say to give them hope?

 

By the way, why do you seem to think that the things you need spiritually are what everybody else needs too?

We all have a common Creator and are made the same i.e. human. Its part of our natures.