death challenge for ex-christians

[Fweethawt]

Thirded.

Fourthed

[Mythra]

Ya know, I've got nothing against christians coming in here if they've got something to say. A christian like guacamole makes you stretch. Makes you think and learn and study to come up with answers.

 

A christian like pug or savedbyfaith (or several others who have been utterly forgettable) just makes you want to

 

They really don't have anything to say. Except how great their god is, how all their prayers get answered, and how something is wrong with us for not getting it. Nevermind that we know the bible better than they do, and did the gig for eons.

 

Anytime anyone makes a valid point or argument against something they are saying, it just rolls off of em like water off a duck's back.

 

Here pug. Pretend you're the little yellow dude and I'm the red one.

 

[pug]

He's not that good.

Apologetic sounding insults abound in every sentence.

Let me know when you're tired of him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm curious. I need confirmation.

 

Are you saying (some of) the folks here do NOT have fine analytical brains? I am insulting you by commenting about your abilities?

 

...you surely are a genius.

Ditto. Calling someone a genius is insulting?

 

And you are NOT fine folks?

[thomas]

I've had him on Ignore for a couple of days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

HanSolo

 

You are more merciful that the christian god. His ignore list is eternal.

[pug]

HanSolo

 

You are more merciful that the christian god. His ignore list is eternal. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But Han still owes me a T-Shirt.

[Godless Dave]

I recently read a book about sciences gone wrong, and it was extremely interesting to see how screwed up Hitler and Stalin was when it came to science. They were not open minded, and furthermore both of them stopped most of the peer-review, and it caused havoc. Most mistakes they did was caused by their completely false ideas about science, nature and sociology.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Fortunately, Hitler's condemnation of the "Jewish physics" of Albert Einstein helped prevent Nazi Germany from developing the atomic bomb.

[Ouroboros]

Fortunately, Hitler's condemnation of the "Jewish physics" of Albert Einstein helped prevent Nazi Germany from developing the atomic bomb.

Exactly, that was one of their big mistakes. They condemned a lot of science and new discoveries. Hitler was not extremely supportive of theoretical science. Take Konrad Suze (sp?) for instance, he's considered to have built the first electronic computer (before Turing and ENIAC), with relays. He wanted to build one with tubes (just like ENIAC), but Hitler refused fundings, of the reason that "we will win the war soon enough without it." Lucky for us, or they would have made a more advanced encryption that the west world could not have decoded.

[khdetw]

For me as an individual there is no "after death". The individual being is nonexistent after death just as it was before birth.

 

The cosmic life of which we all partake goes on. The unending circle of life, as some have described it. When I was a Christian I feared death. Deep down, I realized the absurdity of bodily resurrection and everlasting (as distinct from eternal) life -, even for "sinners". Just look at the ridiculous hoops Xians jump through to make "sense" of it. Now that my thinking is free, I recognize that at death I will simply be in the same state I was in prior to my birth. Nothing to fear or dread. No one fears the time before their birth!

 

Yet, I will have lived. The life I live during the time that I live stands for eternity. Not a moment of it can never be rescinded or altered by any force, once I have lived it. This is the underlying reality from which our valid concepts of eternal life originate. It is quite evident when we remove the obfuscations imposed by religion.

[Astreja]

With any luck my body will be duly be cremated and ashes scattered, per instructions to my partner.

 

And my molecules will find their way back into Ye Olde Foode Chaine at the first possible opportunity.

 

Or, if it takes longer than expected, they'll get consumed in nuclear whatnot when the sun turns into a red giant.

 

And "me" will no longer exist. Something else will, though, and that's just as cool.

[monsterfeets]

I don't really know what will happen to me after death, but if "me" is something that exists outside of the physical or is somehow just contained by the physical, then I suppose I will go on existing conciously in some other way. But I won't be "alive" in the sense I understand it now. I probably will not ever be "here" again. Most likely "me" is just a combination of my experiences and memories which I will forget once my brain dies. I already am a different person than I was a year ago, or 5 years ago. Almost completely. I don't know how I will carry those with me afterwards without my brain unless the 'soul' can contain them somehow (which I doubt since brain-damage causes people's personalities to change so dramatically). Changing doesn't bother me. It also won't bother me if I simply cease to exist, obviously.

 

I think it would be neat to have an afterlife. And still retain some sense of self, as long as I could do something different than what I did while I was alive. But it would still get boring after a while. I get restless after a couple years of doing the same things so it would need to be VERY interesting. I think it would be completely impossible to remain intact for eternity. After such a long time, you may as well have never lived the previous lives at all because you will not remember them. Unless you can somehow become some kind of God like entity eventually, after finally discovering everything there is to discover. Although being 'everything' would pretty much be the same as being nothing at all. It wouldn't be at all like existing as an individual.

 

I really can't understand why people have a desire to continue existing in the same state forever and ever, like the image of Heaven everyone has of a paradise where you and your friends and God all live together for eternity. Seriously, there really would not be a point anymore. No motivation, no surprises. And with no sadness or conflict, goodness and hope lose all their power. Contrast is what makes life meaningful. Things wouldn't be "good". Good as opposed to what? I mean I suppose if you had a nice view of all those folks roasting in Hell you'd know that you had it pretty good. But then you'd just be a happy asshole.

[TruthWarrior]

Where do you think you will go after you die?

 

No, no...purely non threatening, just curious. IF you are a Buddhist, it's a long answer. No, i'm not a Buddhist ~ was. So... where will you end up? Or don't give a Foook?

 

Care to share?

 

I'm going to Disney World!

 

But really, the whole hell thing is contradictory of a loving god that's forgiving and wants his creations saved. It's also not very just and certainately unmerciful. So I dont worry about hell no more at least. It's just plain silly, and mean. The christians who revel in the whole idea of hell seem to be the hateful and prideful types, not producing the "good fruits" they ought to. Seems all the bad stuff in christianity, mostly from all the fear it causes, originates from this eternal hell belief.

[Lycorth]

Don't know where I'm going, and I'll find out when I get there. It's the Trekkie in me - I will boldly go where I have not gone before when my time comes. I have faith it is infinitely better than the hells men have made in their various religions, and even if my soul just sleeps and I dream forever, it's all good.

 

I have too much to focus on in this world to worry overmuch about the next.

[Mythra]

Hmm. I just had a deep (well, deep for me) thought.

 

Christians believe that people have a beginning but no end. Can you think of anything else in the world (or the universe) that has a beginning but no end?

 

Calling Hansolo or Antlerman. Help me figger this one out.

[Taphophilia]

Hmm. I just had a deep (well, deep for me) thought.

 

Christians believe that people have a beginning but no end. Can you think of anything else in the world (or the universe) that has a beginning but no end?

 

Calling Hansolo or Antlerman. Help me figger this one out.

 

Twinkies?

[All Gods Fail]

Hmm. I just had a deep (well, deep for me) thought.

 

Christians believe that people have a beginning but no end. Can you think of anything else in the world (or the universe) that has a beginning but no end?

 

Calling Hansolo or Antlerman. Help me figger this one out.

 

Twinkies?

 

Twinkies have a beginning, but no end.

 

Seriously, maybe time? If time is cyclical, it just keeps looping itself.

[EdwardAbbey]

Where do you think you will go after you die?

 

No, no...purely non threatening, just curious. IF you are a Buddhist, it's a long answer. No, i'm not a Buddhist ~ was. So... where will you end up? Or don't give a Foook?

 

Care to share?

 

I'll end up in the same place you will end up. Buried in the ground and food for the worms and bugs.

 

Next question.

[Lycorth]

Hmm. I just had a deep (well, deep for me) thought.

 

Christians believe that people have a beginning but no end. Can you think of anything else in the world (or the universe) that has a beginning but no end?

 

Calling Hansolo or Antlerman. Help me figger this one out.

 

The universe itself? It must've began at some point but sure doesn't seem like it'll ever end. And isn't energy supposed to be similar? As a Deist, I still think that people have souls of some sort, if not exactly like the Xian way of thinking of it. Hell, probably lots of livng beings have them - who's to say? Only one way to find out, and we all will eventually, so just enjoy the ride till you get there.

 

And Slim Jims seem pretty immortal. I have a few up here and they haven't changed much in six months or so...

[not1not2]

Hmm. I just had a deep (well, deep for me) thought.

 

Christians believe that people have a beginning but no end. Can you think of anything else in the world (or the universe) that has a beginning but no end?

 

Calling Hansolo or Antlerman. Help me figger this one out.

 

I'm not so sure that any such 'thing' could exist. Finding the beginning is like trying to divide 1 in half until we get to 0. We can get really close (relatively speaking) but ultimately 1 is 1 and 0 is 0. Ultimately, beginning is intangible and only exists in relation to other numbers.

 

Likewise beginning is intangible and really only has meaning in relation to other moments. The same can be said for the end as well. Beginning and Ending honestly don't exist in a linear fashion. There is only beginning and end to the extent that we denote a perceived change. Sort of the whole energy cannot be created or destroyed thing.

 

Perhaps we can say the beginning of the sense of 'beginning' of things being a certain way, but not really any sort of absolute beginning. Any attempt at arriving at an absolute beginning seems to involve circular logic.

 

Anyway, in regards to the original question, I have some theories.

 

Basically, we measure our sense of time and space (and by our 5 sense perceptions and by thought. It would seem that based on this that as our attention withdraws from these things that our experience of time and space will dilate, as there is no reference point. Here, we have the whole 1 to 0 thing again. Even if the body dies, ones awareness will not really be aware of it. It will simply be cut off. The awareness will simply rest in its own expansive nature.

 

That's as far as I can carry my theory, but it at least makes some functional sense (on a subjective level). There are theories that mind can continue to receive perceptions (like it does in dreams) and can get as absorbed into them in the same way. In fact some say that this life is no different on an certain level.

 

But than again, who knows??

 

take care

_/\_

[not1not2]

sorry about the typos, I've not been getting much sleep this past week.

 

Anyway, I'd like to expand a bit on my previous post.

 

In regards to the heaven/hell experience, I would imagine that whatever state of mind one dies in has a large part in this. Basically, much like in dreams, as the mind ceases taking in data from the five senses, it sort of creates full-sensory dream experiences based on past impressions and one's state of mind. While these experiences may have no bearing on our waking experience they are very real while being experienced (unless it's a lucid dream). Additionally, one can have an experience which seems like a very long period of time, when it really only took a couple minutes, or even a few seconds. Or we can pass hours away in what seems like seconds.

 

So, it is very possible that, as one loses 5 sensory input, they may experience full sensory-states which fit the traditional descriptions of heaven and hell and last a very long time, seemingly. This is why (IMO) in buddhism, one is advised to focus on the good deeds and one's positive spiritual beliefs when they are dying.

 

I don't really have anyway to verify this, but it does seem consistent with my own experience and my research into dissociative states. And it is questionable as to how much bearing this has on the world we live in.

 

take care all

_/\_

[charley]

There are no theories of life after death, because none of the ideas of it have testable hypothesies that can be replicated by others. In short, no one has come back from the dead with irrefutable proof of what's in store for us. What people have instead of theories are ideas that sound good that they use to make themselves feel good. At the very best, a model that can change with ones mood, just as reasonably as it began.

That distinction is important, because when anyone uses the word "theory" it implies that some real substantial experimentation went into it. But, until people can easily go back and forth from alive to dead and back, and control and manipulate the environments and salient factors of that experience within experimental conditions, there will be nothing but ideas strung together with words, with only one objective ; to make oneself feel good. And why not, we all want to feel good. So, I think everyone should just make up their own ideas.

One thing everyone needs when tackling these issues is courage. That's what we need, as opposed to what we may initially want. We may initially want a belief or mystical benedictions, but if they don't limit or do away with fear they are useless.

If we study and control ourselves enough to be able to limit or end the fear of the unknown, that's the best solution we have to what can otherwise compel us into self-deluding beliefs or despair.

[dr_funkenstein]

To me, the very notion of some kind of life after death is absurd, and profoundly egotistical.

 

One need only look at stroke victims and people with dementia to understand that our ego is nothing more than a manifestation of the processes that occur within our brains. When you look at those people, you can see how when the brain is damaged, their personalities are affected.

 

I think the whole notion of an afterlife is simply a result of the human species survival instinct which has been ingrained into us through the process of evolution. We've been naturally selected to want to survive. We've also been naturally selected to evolve large brains with powerful cognitive abilities. The combination of those two factors leads to a desire for our ego to live on after death. That desire it seems, in some (most?) people, allows them to suspend reason with the cop-out excuse that "nobody's been there, so hey - it's possible, right?".

 

What does it even mean to talk about your soul or ego or whatever you want to label it living on after death? How do you extricate yourself from your body? The very notion is ridiculous. Our thoughts, feelings, emotions, decision-making... in short everything that makes us who we are is a function of our biology - produced by the brain. Remove the body and you have nothing left.

 

Trying to talk about life after death is like talking about breathing in a vaccuum. It just makes no sense at all.

[txviper]

"We've been naturally selected to want to survive. We've also been naturally selected to evolve large brains with powerful cognitive abilities."

 

Selection is not forward looking so nothing has been "selected to evolve" big brains or anything else. Selection is nothing more than a word that has been morphed into a genie by evolutionary theorists. It is all a fantasy.

[dr_funkenstein]

"We've been naturally selected to want to survive. We've also been naturally selected to evolve large brains with powerful cognitive abilities."

 

Selection is not forward looking so nothing has been "selected to evolve" big brains or anything else. Selection is nothing more than a word that has been morphed into a genie by evolutionary theorists. It is all a fantasy.

 

 

Keep on telling yourself that, buddy.

 

Let me put it in simple terms for you. Let's say we have a population of early hominids. Within this population, some have a strong desire to survive (and hence, gather food, build shelter, etc) and some lack this survival instinct. It's pretty clear that those who lack a survival drive will pretty quickly die out, overcome by starvation or the elements. Those that die out will also fail to pass on their genes to the next generation. Therefore the ones with the survival instinct stand the greatest chance of passing on their genes, and not only that, they will provide for their offspring in the best possible way.

 

Having said that, I guess the will to survive and procreate is something that would have emerged as a kind of "axiom" of evolution really. Without that kind of drive, life as we know it would die out pretty quickly.

 

As it stands I have the weight of scientific evidence behind me. You've got nothing but an internally inconsistent book of myths and primitive beliefs.

 

The sad part is, unlike christians, I can't say something like "oh well, you'll find out when you die won't you" because unfortunately, when you die you won't be finding anything out at all...

[txviper]

"As it stands I have the weight of scientific evidence behind me."

 

You have nothing in the way of scientific evidence to back up the religious positions in your first two paragraphs. Speculation and conjecture based on faith. Nothing more.

[Asimov]

"We've been naturally selected to want to survive. We've also been naturally selected to evolve large brains with powerful cognitive abilities."

 

Selection is not forward looking so nothing has been "selected to evolve" big brains or anything else. Selection is nothing more than a word that has been morphed into a genie by evolutionary theorists. It is all a fantasy.

 

Just like your statement here?

 

You have nothing in the way of scientific evidence to back up the religious positions in your first two paragraphs. Speculation and conjecture based on faith. Nothing more.

 

 

Please, feel free to back up anything you say.