Top Ten Reasons Not To Fear Biblical End-times Scenarios

[Overcame Faith]

I was taught in the History of the Bible course, which I took my freshman year in a liberal arts college 35 years ago, that Revelation is really about events transpiring at the time it was written. It was a criticism of Rome under Emperor Nero, and it was written the way it is to disguise that fact -- because direct criticism could have been met with the death penalty. So, it seems that at least some scholars agree with your view, and have for some time.

 

Thank-you for this Thackerie. I think that view of things makes a lot of sense. But, as I posted several times in this thread, even if it can't be proven with total certainty and even if some of the particulars may be wrong, the theory still makes more sense than what the end-timers spout off all the time about Revelation being about modern day events.

 

As you know, Revelation is history, not future.

[DOswalt]

Well, I am fairly new to this forum too. I feel like a hypocrite a little because I am still in Bible College! Though I have given up all thought of the IFBaptist that I have grown up in, and all other religions for that matter. However, this has given me a very deep understanding of my new beliefs. I am currently taking several classes like Eschatology, Philosophy of Education (basically saying that Christian education with complete separation from any other is best), Christology, and Cults. I usually just sit quietly without input; just because I would tear up their beliefs and then get kicked out.

 

It may be particular to IFB, but it is taught that the Pope will be the antichrist and that the US will likely be almost completely uninvolved with it. My question is why do people not consider Antiochus IV Epiphanes or Titus as the antichrist since they both committed the abomination of desolation as the antichrist is supposed to do?

 

Besides this, John clearly said he was in a trance. Does this mean he was hypnotized? Was it dream? Did he eat something that might have caused this? Either way, I would think twice before believing my own dream much less someone else's dream presented as a path for me to follow.

 

This Phil of Ed class is something special. They get so mad about why humanist ideas can be allowed into schools. My thought is how about you study just the Bible exclusively, even though I have never met anyone to follow the Bible, and let me go. But I will be gone soon enough, and when I do leave I am going to cause a ruckus!

[Overcame Faith]

It may be particular to IFB, but it is taught that the Pope will be the antichrist and that the US will likely be almost completely uninvolved with it. My question is why do people not consider Antiochus IV Epiphanes or Titus as the antichrist since they both committed the abomination of desolation as the antichrist is supposed to do?

 

I, too, have read many who believe the Pope will be the antichrist. Just another of a long list of candidates, none of which are or can fill that position.

 

As for Antiochus IV Epiphanes not being the antichrist, I think there are several reasons for that. One reason is that the "Beast", properly speaking, is described in Revelation 13 and it is this "Beast" which arises out of the earth (verses 11-18) that most people think of as the antichrist. This "Beast" in Revelation 13 does not commit the abomination of desolation as did Antiochus IV Ephiphanes so that is not one of his characteristics. Another reason is that Antiochus IV Ephiphanes committed his atrocities around 168 BCE or so which puts him in the wrong time period to be the beast (antichrist) of Revelation 13.

 

Some people believe that Jesus refers to the antichrist in Matthew 24:15-17, but I do not believe that is the case at all. Here are the verses:

 

¹⁵ “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’^[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— ¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.

 

Matthew 24:15-17.

 

Jesus does not say nor does he imply that the person standing in the temple (the holy place) is an antichrist at all. Rather, it's just that when one sees something happening similar to what Daniel described, which was what Antiochus IV Epiphanes did, then they are to flee Judea. I am fairly confident that the Jesus character was describing what Titus did during the Roman sacking of the temple. And, of course, as I described in this thread, that was no prophecy either. It was history being portrayed as Jesus prophesying it.

 

As for Titus not being the antichrist, it's the same reasoning as for Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Wrong time period and not described in Revelation 13.

 

Besides this, John clearly said he was in a trance. Does this mean he was hypnotized? Was it dream? Did he eat something that might have caused this? Either way, I would think twice before believing my own dream much less someone else's dream presented as a path for me to follow.

 

I don't think John clearly said he was in a trance and I don't believe he was actually in a trance at all. The closest he came to saying such a thing that I can find is found here:

 

After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” ² At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

 

Revelation 4:1-2

 

Here he said he was in the Spirit, not in a trance. And I don't believe his saying he was "in the Spirit" is to be taken literally, either. It's part of the code to hide the things he was saying so non-Christian Romans would not come after him or know what he was saying. So he was neither hypnotized nor in a trance and he didn't eat those funny mushrooms, either. What he wrote was very well thought out, but it was no prophecy about end-times.

[Overcame Faith]

Also, DOswalt, welcome to ExC. Glad you're here.

[DOswalt]

Oh yeah. Sorry, I got John mixed up with Peter. Acts 11:5 Peter said he was in a trance when he saw the dream that was to be the sign that the gospel had been given to the gentiles.

 

I still have a lot to study about this, but I am sure what direction I am going.

[Guest Pixie]

Thanks Over Came Faith for the welcome. I think you may be the smartest man on earth! How did you (and others) learn all these details about the scriptures? You must have been studying this material for a lifetime? I could sit here (and I have) for the next year and just read this thread and I would not understand it fully. Wow. You obviously have been wanting to prove the Bible wrong? I think you are a genius. Thanks so much for sharing all this information. This work of art should be in a book.

[Overcame Faith]

Oh yeah. Sorry, I got John mixed up with Peter. Acts 11:5 Peter said he was in a trance when he saw the dream that was to be the sign that the gospel had been given to the gentiles.

 

I still have a lot to study about this, but I am sure what direction I am going.

 

I agree with you on Peter's alleged vision or trance and I take such accounts with a grain of salt. Another example is Paul with his alleged Damascus Road experience of seeing Jesus and his insistence that all he learned about Jesus were through visions from Jesus. Hogwash all.

 

I am sure you are moving in the right direction, too.

[Overcame Faith]

Thanks Over Came Faith for the welcome. I think you may be the smartest man on earth! How did you (and others) learn all these details about the scriptures? You must have been studying this material for a lifetime? I could sit here (and I have) for the next year and just read this thread and I would not understand it fully. Wow. You obviously have been wanting to prove the Bible wrong? I think you are a genius. Thanks so much for sharing all this information. This work of art should be in a book.

 

Thank-you, Pixie, but I assure you I am not the smartest man on earth and I am no genius.

 

I learned the details of the scriptures as a Christian. The difference now is that, having pushed the blinders of faith aside, I am able to see the scriptures for what i believe they really are rather than what Christian pastors and apologists say they are. I didn't realize it at the time, but there is a great mind game that plays itself out with every sermon preached on every Sunday morning. Christians are told from the pulpit and during "Bible studies" what the scriptures mean and this "meaning" is from the very narrow Christian perspective. Contradictions and inconsistencies are either ignored or reconciled with vague and imprecise wording and the God of the Bible's atrocities are often skipped over and when they are discussed, it is with some excuse like, "We can't know the mind of god" and/or "God's justice is perfect and so he had good reasons for doing that" and on and on it goes. All of this "teaching" trains us to read the Bible the way they instruct us to read it with built in excuses for all the problems.

 

Combine the teaching method with faith and Christianity has a powerful means to keep people enslaved in the religion. Faith is the ultimate virtue in Christianity. Those who push their doubts aside by invoking faith are held to be the super-Christians. And faith is invoked all the time. Have doubts about God, the Bible or any other Christian issue, and the ultimate answer is, "You must have faith." What is the promise of faith? Heaven. What is the threat of lack of faith? Hell!! These are powerful mind shaping forces at work. Instill faith as the greatest of virtues and combine that with the promise of a great reward (heaven) or eternal punishment (hell) and people can be and are manipulated into seeing things the way they are taught to see them.

 

I think the first thing that must happen for a person to escape Christianity is for that person to develop a crack in their faith. Once that happens, then they may be ready to search for the truth about the claims of the religion and the truth about the Bible. I believe experience has taught that taking that first step is a deeply personal experience and each person is on their own for that to happen. However, once it does happen, then others can help them to take the next steps toward freedom from the religion.

 

Once my faith was shaken, I decided that I would study the Bible as I never had before. I decided to read it without the gloss of faith and what I had been told by Christian pastors and apologists about what the Bible means. I studied without consulting anyone, neither Christian nor non-Christian. Rather, I read the words for what they said and I was amazed at what I saw (or didn't see) for the very first time. For example, I saw that the God of the Bible (particularly the God portrayed in the Old Testament) was a reflection of the mindset of the time period when the OT was written. He was barbaric, cruel, harsh, judgmental, jealous, and demanded complete obedience. He was a war mongerer and sanctioned and even demanded genocide. In other words, this God was a product of the prevailing mindset. He was a product of the time and of how people of that time thought and acted. In short, he did not exist.

 

Take Revelation as another example of how reading the Bible without the gloss of faith can change one's whole perspective on it. Christians are told how to read and interpret that Book. But read it for yourself. There is no mention in Revelation of nuclear weapons, of rebuilding the Jewish Temple, of the European Union, etc. If that book were speaking of our times, then why isn't there a description of how the world is today? Where are the references to mass communication, to satellites, to airplanes, to radar, to heart transplants, etc., etc. When end-timers say these things are in Revelation, they can only do so by a wild interpretation and not by invoking the actual words in the Book to prove their point. But what do we see? We see references to horses, chariots and to a myriad of things that reflect the way of life in the First Century. And seeing this does not require interpretation; it only requires a simple reading of the words on the pages.

[Guest Pixie]

This responce and logic makes so much sence to me. My faith did crack wide open for me. And you are also right when you stated that the famous reply from the Christian community is normally to have more faith, bigger faith. They will even pray for you to obtain this. They will cast out devils and throw Holy water on you to keep you from asking too many questions. I am faking faith right now. I have read far too much to turn back now. I was always uncomfortable with the Old Testement God. When a good portion of the world believes something to be true, you get 'sucked in' (excuse the expression) because if this many people accept the whole doctrine as truth, it must be true, right? So I naturally believed, even though my intuition was constantly knocking on my heart and in my brain.

 

I think I would like to read the bible from the very beginning, just like you did, to see how it 'speaks' to me. This could be interesting. My family will be pleased to see me studying the bible. This will give me some time to figure out how to approach them in the future. I don't mind having to pretend right now. I am a patient type of person. Your knowledge on this topic is superb. Some of the points you bring forth, I will look for as I study the Bible differently. Thank you very much Overcame Faith. It is a pleasure to finally meet you .

[Overcame Faith]

This responce and logic makes so much sence to me. My faith did crack wide open for me. And you are also right when you stated that the famous reply from the Christian community is normally to have more faith, bigger faith. They will even pray for you to obtain this. They will cast out devils and throw Holy water on you to keep you from asking too many questions. I am faking faith right now. I have read far too much to turn back now. I was always uncomfortable with the Old Testement God. When a good portion of the world believes something to be true, you get 'sucked in' (excuse the expression) because if this many people accept the whole doctrine as truth, it must be true, right? So I naturally believed, even though my intuition was constantly knocking on my heart and in my brain.

 

What you describe is all too common in Christian churches, though some operate differently. But even when they operate differently, they almost never answer the hard questions directly. And there is a good reason for this. That reason is because if they answered directly and honestly, they would have to admit that their religion has major problems. To admit that would put their churches out of business, which they will never do.

 

I agree that part of the draw is that, depending on where one lives, it seems as if the whole world believes what they preach. But here's the thing. The whole world does not believe what they teach. Most of the world is not Christian and even Christians disagree among themselves about what they believe which is why there are so many Christian denominations.

 

My advice for now is not to worry about telling anyone the truth about your doubts. It's okay to "fake it" if that is what is best for your situation. I fully understand that there are family issues involved and when one is part of an active Christian family, to come out with the truth of how you now feel could cause major problems. For now, just do your quiet study and form your own conclusions until you are comfortable. You can decide later whether and how you will tell them, if you decide to tell them at all.

 

 

I think I would like to read the bible from the very beginning, just like you did, to see how it 'speaks' to me. This could be interesting. My family will be pleased to see me studying the bible. This will give me some time to figure out how to approach them in the future. I don't mind having to pretend right now. I am a patient type of person. Your knowledge on this topic is superb. Some of the points you bring forth, I will look for as I study the Bible differently. Thank you very much Overcame Faith. It is a pleasure to finally meet you .

 

I support your desire to read the bible to see how it "speaks" to you. Many on ExC have said that the Bible is its own worst enemy and I agree with that wholeheartedly. You do it the way you want to, but I started with the four gospels. It is quite interesting to compare the four gospels in what I call parallel reading. What that means is to find the same story or account that is found in two or more gospels and to literally read them side by side. By so doing, you can see how the story is changed from gospel to gospel. One thing to remember in doing this is the chronology of when each gospel was probably written. This is the chronological order of the gospels: Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John.

 

Here is a very simple example of what I am talking about. This story deals with the women who first went to Jesus grave on the day he allegedly rose from the dead. Here are some questions: (1) Which women went to the tomb? (2) What time of day was it when they went? Here are the four accounts to compare:

 

When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. ² Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb ³ and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”

 

Mark 16:1-3

 

After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

 

Matthew 28:1

 

On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

 

Luke 24:1

 

⁹ When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. ¹⁰ It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.

 

Luke 24:9-10

 

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

 

John 20:1

 

And this is just the tip of the tip of the proverbial iceberg!

[Inqui]

 

 

3.

There's a mountain of evidence that clearly shows that the Book of Genesis cannot be literally and historically true.

Humans weren't created - they evolved. The Earth isn't just 6,000 years old (according to the Bible genealogies) - 4.5 billion years old. The universe wasn't created in 6 days - it's been evolving for 13.72 billion years. And so on.

Cosmology, Physics, Chemistry, Geology, Palaeontology, Genetics, Anthropology, Archaeology; whatever branch of science you pick - they all agree that the Biblical description of 'history' cannot be literally true.

There was no global Flood. The human race wasn't reduced down to just eight people. The diversity of human languages isn't the result of God smiting the people of Babylon with a multitude of different tongues.

There's no archaeological evidence that the Israelites were ever the slaves of the Egyptians, etc., etc.

 

So Pixie, if Genesis isn't literally true, then neither are the Gospels and neither is Revelation.

 

This is one of my favourite YouTube clips out there. My internet connection's being a dick right now, so here's a

for if it doesn't load properly.

 

[Guest Pixie]

OverCame Faith, this resonates very much with what I have been pondering in the last year or more. I am not afraid to keep this to myself right now, because I refuse to create any uproar with my family. I have read so many posts of the struggle to come forward in the families and make the brave announcement that you are actually doubting the Christian God or the Bible. I will be very cautious. How dare anyone question the book that's been classified as truth for a myriad of generations? I have read many articles in the past year about some of these collections of bible writings. The earliest ones were possible set down nearly 3500 years ago. These writings are supposed to be our truth in 2012? How naive I have been?

 

It always did amaze me how many choices we have within the Christian Churches and denominations. There does seem to be quite a buffet of various doctrines among the sects. I like very much, how the Ex Christian forums talk about the cherry picking each church selects and then within that denomination, continue to preach certain positive (and negative) messages from their elected favorite verses. This is becoming very clear to me now. I can attend the church down the street and not hear a peep about the hell doctrine. Most of these liberal churches do not even believe in a devil or hell. I can go to the next church and become a homosexual preacher. I am seeing everything clearly now.

 

I do appreciate the outline you suggested to follow, as I begin to do my private searching. For the next while, I will look like the perfect Christian woman studying my bible!

 

Many thanks for your time.

[Guest Pixie]

Inqui and bornagainatheist, these posts and replies bring me such relief. I am reading the links and watching many of the you tubes suggested here on the site. I continue to read and try to understand this thread. The details seem to spin my head. All the facts are mind blowing. This will be a big loss for me. I've already felt the first pangs of anger. I need to be an adult right now. It's like waking up from a dream. I'm not sure what is real and what is not. I have always prided myself as a logical thinker, so I must do my best to face this in a rational way.

 

Thank you so much for your time.

[bornagainathiest]

Inqui and bornagainatheist, these posts and replies bring me such relief. I am reading the links and watching many of the you tubes suggested here on the site. I continue to read and try to understand this thread. The details seem to spin my head. All the facts are mind blowing. This will be a big loss for me. I've already felt the first pangs of anger. I need to be an adult right now. It's like waking up from a dream. I'm not sure what is real and what is not. I have always prided myself as a logical thinker, so I must do my best to face this in a rational way.

 

Thank you so much for your time.

 

Hello again Pixie! 

 

Small movements.  Small movements.  That's my advice to you.

These are very, very early days for you and it'd be real easy for you to read too much, too soon and get confused.  Take it slow.  Your emotions will be very unsettled too.  So, if you're you trying to hold onto what feels like a million new thoughts in your head and if you're heart's being pulled every-which-way, why not try this idea?

 

Start up two books. 

 

Book One will be a kind of diary of how you feel, from day to day. 

 

This will be where you record your emotions and feelings and your most personal thoughts.  You can put down in writing everything in your heart - the anger, the bitterness, the regret... anything.  The simple act of putting it down on paper will get you to focus and to remember and to choose the right words to accurately express what you feel.

 

And not just the negative stuff either!  Be just as committed to putting your other feelings to paper too.  Are you happy to find out the truth?  Do you feel as if a great burden has been lifted off your shoulders?  Do you feel a new sense of freedom?  If so, write about these things, taking as long as it takes to capture your feelings on the page.

 

One part of this forum that might help you write about your feelings Pixie, is here...

http://www.ex-christian.net/forum/5-testimonies-of-former-christians/

I highly recommend it.  In fact, rather than going any deeper into the theological and doctrinal details of the Bible, please take some time to look at what some ordinary people have written about their lives and their thoughts.  Facts about the Bible can wait.  They (and we) will all be here tomorrow, the next and so on.  On the hand, feelings can be fleeting things that are easy to forget - so commit (nail them down!) them to paper and they won't get away.

 

 

Book Two will be where you keep the new, Bible-related information you've recently come into contact with. This book is for facts, not feelings, ok?

 

There's just too much to hold onto all of it in your head, so why not print off some pages from this forum and stick or file them into book #2?  And the stuff from those links.  And anything else you think is relevant.  It doesn't matter if you end up with a book that's five inches thick!  Once the stuff's there, it doesn't have to be in your head, does it?  This frees up room in your brain and should help to stop your head from spinning.

 

When you have some free time, go thru the info at your own pace.  Highlight stuff in different colors if you like.  Say, yellow for the stuff you 'get' and blue for that you don't.  Or make notes in the gaps and margins.  Whatever method works for you.  When you do this, you'll be doing something similar to what you've done in book #1.  The simple act of going thru it will help you to focus on what you do understand and what you don't.  Anything you don't 'get' can be noted on a kind of shopping list, to be raised here in Ex-C, whenever you're ready. 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Pixie, in case you're wondering why I recommend doing these things, I'll explain.

 

Right now, you've got too much new information and too many new feelings in your mind and your heart.  It's very easy to get overwhelmed by them.  But by splitting things up into two books (an emotional one, for your feelings and an intellectual one, for this new information) you're giving your head and your heart a chance.

 

Think of it as off-loading some of the burden.  Why carry so much head-spinning, heart-aching stuff around with you, when you can leave some of it at home, on the page, so to speak?   It won't go anywhere, once it's nailed down on paper, will it?  Then, at a time of your choosing, you can go back to it and see if you're ready to deal with it.

 

Q.

Who's in charge here?

 

A.

You are!

 

Ok? 

 

Thanks.

 

BAA

[Guest Pixie]

My gracious sake bornagainatheist, I wish you would come and organize my whole life for me! What a fabulous lay-out plan! This is a wonderful idea. I will do as you suggested. I will follow you folks on Ex Christian because you know what you are talking about. Most of you have been through what I am doubting.  I know that many have said here on the board that life makes much more sense without God. Without a God, all the major questions we had, need no longer apply. The huge question of suffering would make more sense.That would be, of course, if one is looking at life from a evolutionary point of view. That will be another issue for me to delve into. It looks like the rest of my life will be taken up with this investagation! Lol

 

 This is so scary and exciting. I can’t imagine life without God, yet I have been disbelieving many things in the past year. I have read many of the testimonies and I do see how everyone seems to feel the same. It’s the beginning of a whole new journey. One I didn’t really plan on. Maybe book 3 and 4 will be about my new life! I can’t tell you how grateful I am. I’ll get a journal ready this week.

 

I will continue for now to study this thread because it deals with my end time fears. Jeepers, why would I worry about the end, when I don't even have a clue to where it all started? Lol

 

Many, many thanks for your time.

[bornagainathiest]

My gracious sake bornagainatheist, I wish you would come and organize my whole life for me! What a fabulous lay-out plan! This is a wonderful idea. I will do as you suggested. I will follow you folks on Ex Christian because you know what you are talking about. Most of you have been through what I am doubting.  I know that many have said here on the board that life makes much more sense without God. Without a God, all the major questions we had, need no longer apply. The huge question of suffering would make more sense.That would be, of course, if one is looking at life from a evolutionary point of view. That will be another issue for me to delve into. It looks like the rest of my life will be taken up with this investagation! Lol

 

 This is so scary and exciting. I can’t imagine life without God, yet I have been disbelieving many things in the past year. I have read many of the testimonies and I do see how everyone seems to feel the same. It’s the beginning of a whole new journey. One I didn’t really plan on. Maybe book 3 and 4 will be about my new life! I can’t tell you how grateful I am. I’ll get a journal ready this week.

 

I will continue for now to study this thread because it deals with my end time fears. Jeepers, why would I worry about the end, when I don't even have a clue to where it all started? Lol

 

Many, many thanks for your time.

 

 

Not a problem, Pixie!    I'm happy to help.

 

But please remember, that my ideas are only suggestions. 

 

You don't have to do anything I write about, because I'm not your pastor or church elder. I don't have any authority over you.  We are equals.  Perhaps the only significant difference between you and I is that I've walked a bit further down the road you're taking your first steps on... that's all. 

 

In all other respects, you and I and the other members are ALL people equally worthy of respect, tolerance, empathy and courtesy.  Your thoughts, memories and experiences are just as valid as anyone else's.  In fact, it's entirely possible that six months or a year or two down the road, something you write about will be of great help and reassurance to someone else in this forum. 

 

And I don't necessarily mean another newcomer, like yourself.  Perhaps you'll address something that's been a secret cause of anxiety to a long-standing member, something that they've kept bottled-up for too long.  And when they read your words, they'll be comforted by them and realize that someone else has experienced similar fears and anxieties.

 

So Pixie, take it slow and don't 'burn out' your enthusiasm for walking this new path by rushing headlong down it, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest Pixie]

I am going to just sit here for the next few months and read the Ex-Christian topics of discussion. I'm not really ready to do a lot of posting right now. This is my main topic to study. The end times is my greatest fear, so I'll continue to study this thread and do a bit more investigating on the internet. I guess there might be many Ex Christians who will always ask themselves that one question, ''What if the Christians are right?'' I suppose once I am convinced that there is no God, I'll feel more comfortable.  It's just a terrible thought to imagine standing eye to eye with The Lord, only to have him say, ''Sorry - You failed my child.''  

 

It feels nice just to be here. It's comforting to know that I'm not alone in this.

 

Many thanks bornagainatheist for your help.

[bornagainathiest]

 

It feels nice just to be here. It's comforting to know that I'm not alone in this.

 

Many thanks bornagainatheist for your help.

 

(Electronic hug across the miles.)

 

 

BAA

[Inqui]

Inqui and bornagainatheist, these posts and replies bring me such relief. I am reading the links and watching many of the you tubes suggested here on the site. I continue to read and try to understand this thread. The details seem to spin my head. All the facts are mind blowing. This will be a big loss for me. I've already felt the first pangs of anger. I need to be an adult right now. It's like waking up from a dream. I'm not sure what is real and what is not. I have always prided myself as a logical thinker, so I must do my best to face this in a rational way.

 

Thank you so much for your time.

It's normal to hate religion and feel resentment towards religious people once you take you leave Christianity. I like to think of it has having broken up with a really bad ex-boyfriend or girlfriend (depending on what you prefer. Everyone's cool here) in that you'll go through the motions but the severance will eventually become cleaner. For me, having a long conversation about rugby league with my (Christian) cousin helped a lot because it showed me that there's more to life than what people believe. But for you, something else might happen and your process might take more or less time than mine or anyone else's.

 

Threads like this help with things like hell and the end times, and it's all on you from there. I brought this up on a forum member's Facebook page, but the idea that God isn't there taking a personal interest in my life has given me more personal accountability. From here, if you fuck up, you're the one that has to shoulder it. If times get tough, you can't ask an omnipotent sky dude for help (but getting yourself out of the mess is all the more satisfying, because you know you managed it yourself, without the Good Lord helping you fight that battle). Finding answers for yourself is a really liberating and rewarding thing.

 

At the end of the day, I would suggest taking your time to move on, not getting too harsh on yourself for what happened in the past and just carry on with a normal life as best you can. The best ex is the one you've completely forgotten about.

[DOswalt]

Pixie,

 

This idea is from reading Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason."

People have really been deceived by the meanings of words; for example poetry. You will find that this word is only found one time in the bible in Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Now this verse indicates that we come from god: that being said, I am sure you will find that most of the prophets will say that we are the sons of god. Could it be that the bible word for poetry is prophecy?

 

David never claimed to be a prophet, but he is so considered because of the Psalms(songs) that he wrote. Deborah and Barak are considered to have prophesied of past events in Judges 5, which in essence is a song. Saul, in 1 Samuel 10:9-16, comes across a band of prophets and starts to prophecy with them. Does this mean he went from a regular person to suddenly able to tell the future? or maybe he started singing and making verse with them. The 450 priests of Baal were said to prophecy against Elijah in 1 Kings 18:29. I don't think it came to pass since Elijah killed all of them; rather, they made verse of poetry.

 

This is the one that puts the icing on the cake. 1 Chronicles 25:1-7  "Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was: Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king.  Of Jeduthun: the sons of Jeduthun; Gedaliah, and Zeri, and Jeshaiah, Hashabiah, and Mattithiah, six, under the hands of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied with a harp, to give thanks and to praise the LORD.  Of Heman: the sons of Heman; Bukkiah, Mattaniah, Uzziel, Shebuel, and Jerimoth, Hananiah, Hanani, Eliathah, Giddalti, and Romamtiezer, Joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir, and Mahazioth:  All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn. And God gave to Heman fourteen sons and three daughters.  All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God, according to the king's order to Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman.  So the number of them, with their brethren that were instructed in the songs of the LORD, even all that were cunning, was two hundred fourscore and eight."

 

Now this is not enough evidence to change the definition; but when you look at the major or minor prophets you will find that they are quite....spastic, incoherent, and just don't always make sense even to the best theologians don't try to understand(as I am still suffering through bible college, I know this). 

 

Now take a couple of prophecies of Christ from the Old Testament; because if these did happen as prophesied, then we would have reason to fear prophecies of the future. Here is a link to some explanations of prophecies of Christ by Thomas Paine: http://deism.com/paine_essay_false_prophecies_of_jesus_1.htm. 

Look up the references that he uses in the bible so you can see it for yourself. When I read this I was astonished! I realized that I had read the Old Testament before, including the so called prophecies, but never would I have seen it like this. 

 

This happened because the New Testament was written after Christ's life and was an attempt to merge the Roman pagan religion of the day. This religion was a worship of the sun which explains why Jesus was claimed to have been born on the winter solstice; said multiple times he was the way, the truth, and the life; he said that I am the light of the world; he arose on Sunday(Die Solis in Latin or day of the sun, as if that is not self-explanatory lol); and in Revelations it is claimed that jesus will be the light of the world with no need for a physical sun. This is the reason you don't find Jews accepting Christianity. He was, by their expectations, to set up the kingdom as in the days of Solomon. Unfortunately, this day will not come for them either.

 

To everyone,

I know Paine still believed in God, although in a different manner than christians. I for one am not sure yet whether to go for Deism or Atheism. I would never walk into a library and just assume that all the books just appeared such order. It took two things before it would happen: an order system by which to arrange the books, and something to arrange the books by such an order. Now if all the matter in the universe is programmed with the laws of their nature than it could arrange itself, but my opinion of God is that which set up and maintains the laws by which matter consists and operates. Deism or Atheism? Names don't matter to me as much as that I do not believe in religion.

[Guest Pixie]

Sometimes lately, I'm not very proud to call myself a Christian. When I sit here and read all this information and what you bible scholar's have studied here on Ex Christian, I am slightly embarassed.  I thought I knew my bible. I felt proud to be a bible studier! 

I feel like you are taking a jigsaw puzzle with a million peices and putting it all together. I thought I had the puzzle finished, but now I can see that only one quarter of it was pieced together, if that. I knew and studied what the church taught me.  As I sit here lately and look through the Old Testament, there are names of chapters that I don't even really recognize! I don't know this whole book at all. I feel like a bit of a 'dummy'. I only had certain information. I knew none of this and right now I feel as if I know nothing.  The church does not encourage the people to study this way. The more I read, the more confused I get. But I will say this much; you all have given me enough information to disprove the end time theories (as confused as it makes me) to help me become more comfortable in my mind, that it may be all nonsense. I can't believe I am even saying this. Calling the bible,'hogwash'?This I do know for sure, I am one of those people they speak about in the New Testament that is falling away from the faith.

 

 Many thanks to you DOswalt for the new information.   I hope someday to be able to present this to family and friends when I feel ready.

[bornagainathiest]

Pixie,

 

This idea is from reading Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason."

People have really been deceived by the meanings of words; for example poetry. You will find that this word is only found one time in the bible in Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Now this verse indicates that we come from god: that being said, I am sure you will find that most of the prophets will say that we are the sons of god. Could it be that the bible word for poetry is prophecy?

 

Hey DOswalt!

 

Umm... this is tricky, but I've got to say it.

 

Acts 17:28 is where the Apostle Paul is quoting the pagan poets, Aratus of Soli and Epimenides of Knossos. 

So those words aren't strictly about the Judaeo-Christian God of the Bible.  Paul was quoting poems that he knew the pagan audience of the Areopagus would be familiar with.  In a similar way, when he talked about the altar inscribed, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD', this was just a clever device to lead his audience from the pagan things they already knew, to the new Christian ideas he was introducing them to.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aratus

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides

 

No hard feelings, I hope. But, in a way, this just goes to re-emphasize your point of how words can deceive, eh?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Margee]

I am going to just sit here for the next few months and read the Ex-Christian topics of discussion. I'm not really ready to do a lot of posting right now. This is my main topic to study. The end times is my greatest fear, so I'll continue to study this thread and do a bit more investigating on the internet. I guess there might be many Ex Christians who will always ask themselves that one question, ''What if the Christians are right?'' I suppose once I am convinced that there is no God, I'll feel more comfortable.  It's just a terrible thought to imagine standing eye to eye with The Lord, only to have him say, ''Sorry - You failed my child.''  

 

It feels nice just to be here. It's comforting to know that I'm not alone in this.

 

Many thanks bornagainatheist for your help.

 

 

Pixie, Welcome to EX-c! I  have been off the board for awhile and am just taking a few minutes this morning to welcome all the newcomers! You never have to feel alone again my dear. I don't have a lot of time....my life is very busy right now, but if you need any help in some of this 'deconverting', please let us know and we'll help you in any way we can. You've  certainly picked the right thread to study my friend. There is so much good information here. This thread has always helped me. It is a bit complicated, but just keep studying... you'll eventually understand more all the time.

 

 Just reach out! Good luck on this new venture of 'deconverting'.... we're all in this together!! We all that in common!!

 

Hug for you today!

[DOswalt]

 

 

Pixie,

 

This idea is from reading Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason."

People have really been deceived by the meanings of words; for example poetry. You will find that this word is only found one time in the bible in Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Now this verse indicates that we come from god: that being said, I am sure you will find that most of the prophets will say that we are the sons of god. Could it be that the bible word for poetry is prophecy?

Hey DOswalt!

 

Umm... this is tricky, but I've got to say it.

 

Acts 17:28 is where the Apostle Paul is quoting the pagan poets, Aratus of Soli and Epimenides of Knossos.

So those words aren't strictly about the Judaeo-Christian God of the Bible. Paul was quoting poems that he knew the pagan audience of the Areopagus would be familiar with. In a similar way, when he talked about the altar inscribed, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD', this was just a clever device to lead his audience from the pagan things they already knew, to the new Christian ideas he was introducing them to.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aratus

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides

 

No hard feelings, I hope. But, in a way, this just goes to re-emphasize your point of how words can deceive, eh?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[DOswalt]

That kinda just goes to prove the deceitfulness of the religoin. No hard feelings.

 

Kinda funny that they take what belief you may have and twist it to fit their ideas and then try to convince you of theirs.