A Story Of Being "trapped"

[marmot]

Trapped, I really appreciated reading your testimony and struggles. My heart really goes out to you. Please keep posting on here about your experience -- I am anxious to compare notes.

 

I have only been married to my wife for 1.5 years. We met in church and her mother is a fundamentalist (she has sent me books on six day creationism). Her mother homeschooled her until highschool, and I believe this has engrained in her a sense of piety that has not been shaken throughout the years.

 

When we met, my wife was double majoring in philosophy and chemistry, and was starting graduate school in chemistry at the top school in her field. She is now in her first year of medical school at another excellent university. I say all of this to point out she is the smartest person I know.

 

My wife has become fairly politically liberal over the last few years, and most of our friends these days do not attend church. Outside of about a 6 month stretch leading up to our wedding (when we were in a pre-marriage class) we have not attended church regularly starting about 2.5 years ago. I say all of these things because I think they are positive trends we have going in our direction. She is a real thinker and I have confidence she could find her way to free thought in time.

 

I am (cowardly) afraid of even bringing up my doubts and feelings about Christianity. Occasionally, when a friend posts about a hospitalized child on Facebook, she still says things like "we'll have to pray for her" and things like this. Not often, but occasionally. I worry that by initiating a conversation about this it could make things worse, or she could want to start to attend church.

 

I am very content with our life together right now. We love each other, and we make each other very happy. We never talk about church or God, but it is now weighing on my heart (we moved when she matriculated into medical school, and I got a job at a conservative Christian school -- before I started de-converting). I have been griping to her about the way my school community feels about homosexuality, abortion etc. and she empathizes and agrees with me. This school is what really helped to bring about my confrontation with my loss of faith.

 

My dilemma -- do I initiate the conversation of my gradual deconversion with her? Or do I Iet things (happily) continue to go on the way they are now -- we don't go to church, don't pray together, don't talk of god...yet I I am hiding a part of myself from her. I am also dreadfully worried about how this would go over with both of our families -- devout Christian folk.

 

Any thoughts from people who have been in similar situations? Trapped, any words of wisdom? I am sorry if I have hijacked your thread, but your testimony shared some important commonalities with mine and I thought perhaps we can be resources to each other (and others going through this process). Thanks!

[badpuppy]

LOL @ the fillings part of the story. That's hardcore.

 

Re: speaking in tongues... I was raised in the pentecostal side of things, a very close cousin of Assemblies of God. I remember one summer at camp I "almost" spoke in tongues. (meaning there was babbling and stuttering but not the full rambling nonsense words.) The thing was, it was a pretty frightening experience and it was weird because for a moment it felt like there were two of me existing simultaneously. There was the me that was caught up in this bizarre ecstatic experience with people around me egging it on and there was the me that was observing all of it thinking: "this isn't real, but it's what they want to see, so let's give a good show." Of course the whole time they're around me telling me to just "let go and let god" or whatever nonsense phrase they were saying. But I just couldn't bring myself to do it because it just felt manufactured. I think that was one of the first experiences that had me start questioning, but I didn't really make a more serious effort to question until I got out of my parents' house. I wondered for a long time if other people's experience of "speaking in tongues" had been like mine, but I never asked. It seemed impolite and I knew they'd look at me all horrified that I'd even suggested it.

 

I'm sorry to hear about the experience with your wife and kids. Nothing divides families like fundamentalist faith.

[Thought2Much]

My dilemma -- do I initiate the conversation of my gradual deconversion with her? Or do I Iet things (happily) continue to go on the way they are now -- we don't go to church, don't pray together, don't talk of god...yet I I am hiding a part of myself from her. I am also dreadfully worried about how this would go over with both of our families -- devout Christian folk.

Hello, marmot, welcome to Ex-C!

 

Since you asked, my advice would be to just keep going as things are, since it appears to me (through your description) that everything about your relationship regarding religion is just fine. It doesn't sound like your wife has any deeply held beliefs; I might even attribute her posting "I'll pray for you" to her friends on Facebook as just a supportive kind of thing to say to people, for lack of anything else better to say in those situations. I've often wondered what to post when one of my friends is going through a rough situation, and everyone else says "I'll pray for you," and I can't think of anything meaningful to say. It doesn't sound like you need to pretend to be anything, which is a good thing.

 

Since neither one of you goes to church, prays, or talks about your life with God, I don't see the point in bringing it up unless she asks you about it.

[Thought2Much]

Now I'm famous! Well, kinda sorta, in an anonymous way.

 

I'm not sure if anyone else here listens to the The Thinking Atheist's podcasts. I recently saw that he was going to have a show about closet atheists, so I sent him my story, which was much the same as what I've posted as my extimony here. I was surprised that Seth read the entire thing, since it was a bit long.

 

Here's the Youtube link for the podcast:

 

[Positivist]

Now I'm famous! Well, kinda sorta, in an anonymous way.

Congrats! I'll have to listen to that!!

 

[EDIT] TO ADD: Wow, I just listened to it. I highly recommend it. Trapped's letter starts at 6 minutes in.

 

Thanks for posting!

[Thought2Much]

Thanks for the support, Positivist! The rest of that show was also good, especially the calls from people that would be in actual physical danger if they were to come out about their atheism.

 

I had an interesting conversation with my wife last night. She was telling me about a bunch of problems at the church that focus on her dad, the pastor. Her brother (who is on the worship team) has basically said that if their father continues with what he's doing in this particular situation, that the rest of the family will walk out. Period.

 

My wife asked where we would go to church if it were to come to that. I just said, "I don't know." She continued, "It's not like we can drive all the way to [church we used to attend]." I said to her, "Do they still believe their silver fillings are being changed to gold ones by God? Or have they moved on to "gold dust" on their hands?" She asked if that was why we left that church. I said, "It was a symptom. It was one of the reasons."

 

I also mentioned how everyone at our church seems to be either very strange, of below average intelligence, or both. I told her how I can't take the conversations that happen in the fellowship hall after church, because everyone talks about how "God was leading me" to do this or that, and how everyone there thinks they're some sort of biblical scholar and they endlessly give their interpretations of scripture. I mentioned that there are people there that do nothing to improve their situation because they're waiting on God to do it for them. My wife didn't seem to have any arguments against any of it; she understood exactly what I was saying, because she knows the people I was talking about, and she's seen it for herself. She knows it's all true.

 

Unfortunately, my wife started this conversation at ten o'clock at night, so I didn't want to get into too big of a discussion. However, I think that lays out some sort of ground work. It's not quite the same as me saying, "Honey, by the way, I'm an apostate. Could you please pass the green beans?" but it's something.

[ConureDelSol]

Thanks for the support, Positivist! The rest of that show was also good, especially the calls from people that would be in actual physical danger if they were to come out about their atheism.

 

I had an interesting conversation with my wife last night. She was telling me about a bunch of problems at the church that focus on her dad, the pastor. Her brother (who is on the worship team) has basically said that if their father continues with what he's doing in this particular situation, that the rest of the family will walk out. Period.

 

My wife asked where we would go to church if it were to come to that. I just said, "I don't know." She continued, "It's not like we can drive all the way to [church we used to attend]." I said to her, "Do they still believe their silver fillings are being changed to gold ones by God? Or have they moved on to "gold dust" on their hands?" She asked if that was why we left that church. I said, "It was a symptom. It was one of the reasons."

 

I also mentioned how everyone at our church seems to be either very strange, of below average intelligence, or both. I told her how I can't take the conversations that happen in the fellowship hall after church, because everyone talks about how "God was leading me" to do this or that, and how everyone there thinks they're some sort of biblical scholar and they endlessly give their interpretations of scripture. I mentioned that there are people there that do nothing to improve their situation because they're waiting on God to do it for them. My wife didn't seem to have any arguments against any of it; she understood exactly what I was saying, because she knows the people I was talking about, and she's seen it for herself. She knows it's all true.

 

Unfortunately, my wife started this conversation at ten o'clock at night, so I didn't want to get into too big of a discussion. However, I think that lays out some sort of ground work. It's not quite the same as me saying, "Honey, by the way, I'm an apostate. Could you please pass the green beans?" but it's something.

 

That's fantastic that you managed to have some sort of conversation that was critical of the church and yet, she didn't go ape on you. Some people I know of would flip out if I told them I was annoyed by people using the language like "God was leading me." It would get very confrontational, very quickly. It's a great starting point though, to test the waters and see exactly how much your wife is willing to listen without being hurt.

[Thought2Much]

It's a baby step for sure, and there may be a lot of shit coming my way later, but it's still a step.

[marmot]

It's a baby step for sure, and there may be a lot of shit coming my way later, but it's still a step.

 

Rick Perry et al have been providing plenty of fodder for me to mention to my wife (think about his "Strong" ad).

 

Continue to point out those kind of things to your wife. The first cracks in my faith began when I read about the whole Ted Haggard fiasco, along with watching the absolute bat shit craziness of "Jesus Camp". It took years for them to really percolate through because my faith is something I held very dear, but those were certainly the beginnings of my apostasy.

[marmot]

It's a baby step for sure, and there may be a lot of shit coming my way later, but it's still a step.

 

Remember the age old cop-out after talking to someone about God? "Well, we can only plant a seed and it is up to God to see that it grows." You are sowing seeds, my friend.

[blackpudd1n]

It's a baby step for sure, and there may be a lot of shit coming my way later, but it's still a step.

 

Remember the age old cop-out after talking to someone about God? "Well, we can only plant a seed and it is up to God to see that it grows." You are sowing seeds, my friend.

 

That's how I've always looked at it. I find the parable of the mustard seed particularly ironic, because it can work against Christianity. it all starts with one little doubt, no matter how silly. For me, it was the angels- if they had no free will, then how come satan/Lucifer was able to rebel? That requires free will. Being told that they initially had free will and God took it away after the rebellious ones were cast from Heaven wouldn't have helped, either- what, so God's in the business of taking away free will? It might seem silly, but a sticking point's a sticking point!

[Positivist]

My wife didn't seem to have any arguments against any of it; she understood exactly what I was saying, because she knows the people I was talking about, and she's seen it for herself. She knows it's all true.

 

Unfortunately, my wife started this conversation at ten o'clock at night, so I didn't want to get into too big of a discussion. However, I think that lays out some sort of ground work. It's not quite the same as me saying, "Honey, by the way, I'm an apostate. Could you please pass the green beans?"; but it's something.

Wow! That's huge progress, actually! Very clever to let her lead the way and you highlight and underscore the inconsistencies as she notices them. Crazy situation you have going on there!

[Positivist]

It's a baby step for sure, and there may be a lot of shit coming my way later, but it's still a step.

 

Remember the age old cop-out after talking to someone about God? "Well, we can only plant a seed and it is up to God to see that it grows." You are sowing seeds, my friend.

Marmot, thank you for the new application of the "planting seeds" metaphor!

[Luv2knit]

Now I'm famous! Well, kinda sorta, in an anonymous way.

 

I'm not sure if anyone else here listens to the The Thinking Atheist's podcasts. I recently saw that he was going to have a show about closet atheists, so I sent him my story, which was much the same as what I've posted as my extimony here. I was surprised that Seth read the entire thing, since it was a bit long.

 

Here's the Youtube link for the podcast:

 

 

You know I was making dinner tonight and listening to The Thinking Atheit's podcast. He started reading this email, the more I listened is said, "hey! That sounds like Trapped! OMG!" And then he finished the email and read your name!!!!! That was so cool!

[Prestissimo]

Hi, I just read your story. Actually all four pages of the discussion that followed.

 

Your story really makes me sad, I understand how this is very frustrating. I admire your strong character for finding your way out of this mind-cage while having been active in such a strong cult.

 

You describe a delicate issue, it really seems like your wive was really damaged and she build up a strong mind-cage. You describe a person that is smart, except when it comes to religion. She seems almost traumatic. I agree with you and everyone else that you should approach the problem carefully, but I think the only chance you have to get through to her is to trigger her rational thinking regarding religion. She can rationally think about religion if you approach that part of her brain often enough. And I think I have a rather save way to do it. I'm only guessing here, I'm not a neuroscientist, but just consider my idea:

Instead of asking questions yourself, let God ask the questions instead. "God spoke to me this morning and told me to read bible book verse <..>, I did, but I don't understand what God is trying to tell me, can you give me your thoughts?".. She will find you an unsatisfying answer most likely but you trigger her to think about it. Using this approach she can't argue that you ask too many questions. If you seem sincere that it's God that is asking the questions and you don't understand why either, you might be able to keep her attention. You're solving this together. God has a plan with your live, right? You're not lying either, God and you are exactly the same thing anyway.

You can use anything from "visions" to "Gods voice" to approach the smart methods freeasabird proposed. You might be able to craft a good plan by collecting your biblical phrases in advance, building up to a certain conclusion and introduce it at her one verse at a time.

 

I think the only way is to communicate is to speak each others language. She is not open to the idea that you preach things that are differently than what she learned from God. But she can't question God. You can find enough phrases in the bible saying how you should trust God if he calls you. Just let her do the thinking. Every time she seeks a solution you trigger that she's thinking actively about her religion. You know your wive best, treat carefully and smartly, use her blind faith to your advantage.

 

Take care.

[2Honest]

Congrats on the radio spot, Trapped! I will listen to it today while I'm cooking. That's also really great about your conversation with your wife. I think it's definitely encouraging that she is able to objectively look at the behavior of some of the people at church. Hopefully things will take a nose dive soon and she'll be willing to walk away. I know that will be a tough road, though, considering all of the family issues being intertwined. But I have a feeling once she is out of church for a little while the fog will begin to lift. Several years ago we left a fundy church we'd been very involved in for 4 years.. I was amazed after a few weeks at how much clearer my thinking was. I didn't know how bad it was until I was away from it and could hear my own thoughts! Hopefully this will be the case for her, too.

 

Thanks for keeping us posted. We're cheering for you!

 

2H

[Prestissimo]

I can't seem to find the option to edit my text, so I could add something to my previous text.

 

Well anyway, another thing came to mind. Maybe she could handle reading "conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch". if you haven't read the book I can recommend giving it a try. It's a book that managed to sound completely like a christian book but broadens the view of the reader subtly but firmly. It's written as an actual conversation with God. Better yet, the author makes very clear at some point that it doesn't even matter if it's actually God or the self you're speaking too: introducing a pantheistic worldview. But he does this very careful, a christian reader will have no reason to doubt that the author is actually talking to God or at least "thinks" he's literally talking to God.

What makes it good is that it has a great appeal to christians. The cover doesn't give away at all that the author meant a bigger picture. He writes it as a christian, and God tells him where he made wrong interpretation, wrong choices etc..

I have two friends that were de-converted after reading the book, or I should say: a friend and his mother. This mother was exactly like my own mother very strict and fundamental in her believe. She's been a christian for 35 years and this book managed to change her. She is now stronger than ever.

[marmot]

If we are going for book recommendations, I think you should investigate Brian McLaren's "A New Kind of Christian" series. These books helped start to deconstruct some of my foundations of Christianity. I still thought I was a good Christian after reading them, but some of those fundamental pillars had changed. Worth a look. (I also heard a lot about how this guy was leading Christians astray, not a true Christian etc...so that has to be a good thing!)

[Positivist]

If we are going for book recommendations, I think you should investigate Brian McLaren's "A New Kind of Christian" series. These books helped start to deconstruct some of my foundations of Christianity. I still thought I was a good Christian after reading them, but some of those fundamental pillars had changed. Worth a look. (I also heard a lot about how this guy was leading Christians astray, not a true Christian etc...so that has to be a good thing!)

Hi Marmot! My first touchpoint on my freefall from faith was Brian MacLaren's A Generous Orthodoxy. That actually saved my faith for about a year. This book was banned at my church; they thought it was "dangerous". Anyhow, great book. I obviously had further to go. I also have the other MacLaren book you mentioned. Both helped me move away from my fundamentalism, which was beginning to feel like a shoe that was really too small!

[Prestissimo]

Great to read that there are books to do the trick. This might be your best bet.

[marmot]

If we are going for book recommendations, I think you should investigate Brian McLaren's "A New Kind of Christian" series. These books helped start to deconstruct some of my foundations of Christianity. I still thought I was a good Christian after reading them, but some of those fundamental pillars had changed. Worth a look. (I also heard a lot about how this guy was leading Christians astray, not a true Christian etc...so that has to be a good thing!)

Hi Marmot! My first touchpoint on my freefall from faith was Brian MacLaren's A Generous Orthodoxy. That actually saved my faith for about a year. This book was banned at my church; they thought it was "dangerous". Anyhow, great book. I obviously had further to go. I also have the other MacLaren book you mentioned. Both helped me move away from my fundamentalism, which was beginning to feel like a shoe that was really too small!

 

Oops...I wrote you back last Thursday right before the server crashed! That's funny that Mr. McLaren led you down the same road. I wonder how many other ex-Christians he has greased the tracks for, so to speak.

 

Now, I am getting rid of some of my Christian books I will never read again (your John Eldredges, etc...I never would have been caught dead with a Max Lucado, even as a Christian). I might even sneak out a few of my wife's!

 

Dilemma -- do I take them to Goodwill, or trash them? The recycler in me really doesn't want to throw them away...

[Positivist]

Now, I am getting rid of some of my Christian books I will never read again (your John Eldredges, etc...I never would have been caught dead with a Max Lucado, even as a Christian). I might even sneak out a few of my wife's!

 

Dilemma -- do I take them to Goodwill, or trash them? The recycler in me really doesn't want to throw them away...

I've facipulated my husband getting rid of some of his Xian books (facipulate = facilitate + manipulate ). I have kept a few seminal works, to dilute the growing collection of "other" perspectives. My fundy-in-laws will surely pore over our bookshelves, so I hide the truly atheist ones. Anyhow, some of the literature we had before our meltdown would actually be detrimental to our new friendships. Out it goes!

 

Happy purging. I sent mine to goodwill.

[Thought2Much]

I would trash the books, since I wouldn't want anyone else reading that dreck, either. But that's just me.

 

I'm not sure how open my wife would be to reading a book I recommend. If she wasn't sure of the content beforehand, she would be quick to Google what people have to say about it; if she found that a lot of people used the materials in their deconversion, she'd probably be upset at me for trying to pull a fast one. That kind of move could backfire in a spectacular way, but thanks for the suggestions, all!

[Positivist]

That kind of move could backfire in a spectacular way, but thanks for the suggestions, all!

True. Let's hope her recent critical examination phase continues!

[2Honest]

I would trash the books, since I wouldn't want anyone else reading that dreck, either. But that's just me.

 

I agree - I just can't bring myself to donate our books. The thought of someone picking up one of my old books at Goodwill, paying money for it and taking it home to read just makes me shudder.

 

But we've found a great use for them. If you have a fireplace or outdoor fire pit, they make great kindling!