Ex Christians And Social Conscience.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

If a conversation should turn that way .... well so be it. I would tell my story.

 

Hi!

 

Well, that's an interesting thought. I think it depends on many different factors. I personally have not attempted to really deprogram some of my family members, but when you see the Pentecostal family they are a part of, you would realize that this late in life trying to pull them away would be detrimental. As long as my family doesn't get old, feeble and hand out all their healthcare money to fund a trip for the congregation to Isreal, I will leave them be.

 

BUT, I do discuss and post my thoughts openly.

 

Like many, I am part of the FB/MP/Messenger culture, and every day I see the updates and statuses praising those who are saved, damning those who are not. And I make a point of posting my own non-believing opinions/questions/thoughts regularly too. So now and then things get a bit of a tangle going.

 

Here's a great example of one of my postings from the other day:

 

 

Once upon a time, humanity didn't understand fire, and because of that, humanity worshipped it and called it God, till figuring out how fire occurs. The same happend with lightening, plagues, meteor showers, even the DUST BOWL for pete's sake! Why is it, when we don't have the answers to miraculous happenings like the creation of life or what happens after death, we automatically call on a God? Ca...n't you just admit you don't know instead of labeling it godly? An answer will eventually come. Why try to hide behind the whole cop out of ,"God is beyond comprehension." Don't you see the ridiculousness of such lines of thought? Show some humility already and just admit YOU DON'T KNOW, and drop YOUR self assured arrogance. People in this world would get along a lot better that way. I have read the Bible cover to cover. Seriously, I did. I don't quote part of one scripture here, and take a bit there. The bottome line is it is a seriously screwed up book. The book of Mormon was even more entertaining. All of these godly beliefs will eventually be on the history shelves as prerequisite literature for a humanities degree in another thousand years or so, just like the Greek gods, Egyptian Gods, and Aztec gods, all of whom were around a hell of a lot longer than the current Yaweh, who were worshipped more fervently, and the teachings of which weren't nearly as contorted and twisted as the current version of God.

 

Now, I had posted this in response to a deluge of postings by my cousin (female) about Hell, damnation, and so on. She is also a member of Reformer's Anonymous, so I really think she is beyond hope of waking up anyhow. Funny enough, she debated with me for a bit over this, conceded Dahmer might actually be in Heaven waiting for her to hug, but said there was no way Hitler could be there since he was "evil". Then I had a classmate I don't even remember out of the blue literally attack me for even posting anything about God to begin with even though her own updates or on my pages daily as well. Mind you I do not ever directly jump on an individual's page and attack them personally, but yet they feel the need to do so to me. It really shows that no matter your reasoning, you open yourself up publicly for a lot of attack and hypocritical accusations when you even share your thoughts in a general manner.

 

I haven't been Christian for at least 7 or 8 years now, I haven't been a practicing Christian for about 15 years now. I've deconverted 3 people, but they were open to discussion and already visibly questioning their beliefs already. To purposely go off on a crusade to change the minds of fairy tale worshippers is not adviseable, unless their is a clear abuse going on.

 

*********************************************************************

America is awesome because religious freedom STOPS at my doorstep!!

[Guest end3]

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

http://www.scripture...NTpdf/heb10.pdf

 

See verse 14? See the proper English translation? "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

http://biblos.com/hebrews/10-14.htm

 

And here? "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

http://concordances.org/greek/5048.htm

 

And the word, 'teteleiOken'? The root, teleio never means something in progress or something unfinished or something in the process of - it always means completion, accomplishment or fulfillment. You can see it here, in verse 30, when Jesus cries out, "It is finished!" on the cross.

http://www.scripture...NTpdf/joh19.pdf Tetelestai... it has been finished/ it has been accomplished.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Do you see it now, End?

 

Everything was finished and done two millennia ago, yet no Christian believers have ever became perfect at the moment they first believed. Nor have any of them become perfect before they died. There is no process of perfection in this mortal life. Christ's one act perfects all for all time. It doesn't matter when any believer lives and dies. The finished work of Jesus guarantees their future perfection, no matter what year or civilization or culture His believers live in. It is a promise, just like the promise of eternal life or the promise of co-inheritance of the kingdom of God.

 

Hebrews 11:39

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

No Christians have received God's promises yet. Only together (with the cloud of O.T. witnesses) will they be made perfect.

 

It's not a process End, it's a future event.

 

BAA.

 

I see your point BAA, in that it is finished work by Christ, but there is a time period between his finished work and the "day of the Lord", where I believe people will be change into finished form....those that have remained faithful. By taking your stance you are offering up a myriad of different ideas......

 

1) The pupose of the Holy Spirit

2) Why does Paul say that he continues to do things he doesn't want to do.

3) Phrases like, "does this give us a reason to sin more, absolutely not" (paraphrased)

4) Wide is the path, but the door is narrow (paraphrased).

 

What I hear you saying is that our santification is a finished work, but the race is adherence to faith. Is this right?

 

Edit: I don't know how you can make your point without separating faith and works. I think the implication is that our actions play a role in the covenant with Christ.

[bornagainathiest]

I see your point BAA, in that it is finished work by Christ, but there is a time period between his finished work and the "day of the Lord", where I believe people will be change into finished form....those that have remained faithful.

 

Sorry End, but you seem to be confused about the purpose and role of faith.

Faith is not about the believer changing into some kind of finished 'product' during their lifetimes. Please read this...

 

Hebrews 11:13 - 16.

¹³ All these people (the cloud of OT witnesses) were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. ¹⁴ People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. ¹⁵ If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. ¹⁶ Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

 

They were not looking for God to change them during their lives, but looked forward to a time after their lives, when God would perfect them and make them fit to enter His city, the New Jerusalem.

Their faith was that God would change them then - not while they lived, via some gradual process.

 

That is why Paul writes in Hebrews 11:39 that, '...only together with us (the NT witnesses and all Christian believers thereafter) would they be made perfect.' Here, the word together plainly means in heaven, after death. That is the only scenario that sees all Christian believers, from all the history of the Earth, united as one people.

 

By taking your stance you are offering up a myriad of different ideas......

 

Indeed!

Ideas that are new to you, perhaps?

 

1) The pupose of the Holy Spirit

 

The true purpose of the Holy Spirit (as far as I understand it) actually answers questions 1 thru 4.

However End, I've already covered this, to a degree. Fessing up to a mistake now! I said that I'd covered it in this thread. Nope! I erred when I wrote that. In fact, I covered it in that other thread, the one about the Genesis/Crucifixion connection.

So why don't you hop on over there and refresh your memory, eh?

Then get back to me and see if it's any clearer.

Deal?

 

2) Why does Paul say that he continues to do things he doesn't want to do.

 

3) Phrases like, "does this give us a reason to sin more, absolutely not" (paraphrased)

 

4)Wide is the path, but the door is narrow (paraphrased).

 

What I hear you saying is that our santification is a finished work, but the race is adherence to faith. Is this right?

 

Yes.

Adherence to faith throughout ones life to the end of it guarantees all of God's many promises - salvation, eternal life, co-inheritance of the kingdom of God, perfection, etc., etc.

Falling away from faith automatically dis-inherits one from these things, guaranteeing only a hellish destiny.

 

The race is a metaphor or symbol of not giving up or quitting on Christ.

What the race is not is a metaphor/symbol of how you can change yourself or how God can change you.

 

Edit: I don't know how you can make your point without separating faith and works. I think the implication is that our actions play a role in the covenant with Christ.

 

Perhaps we should put this faith/works issue on hold for now. I'd like to hear your response about the role of the Holy Spirit first.

 

BAA.

[Noggy]

This would all be relevent if the bible wasn't all bullshit based on inklings of old dudes sitting in tents.

[Spectrox]

Okay, End, what sayest thou?

 

If you don't like the atheists expounding your scriptures for you then perhaps next time you will do it yourself.

 

Oh, let's see, you're not talking to me.

 

Whoopee! I can say whatever I like.

 

Well, I'm paying attention to you, R.S.

 

Thanks for the input here and 'Yes', I do generally agree with your criticisms of Christianity.

However, please note that I am in dialog with End3, not to persuade him that Christianity is false, but to show him that he is not an "Authentic Christian Believer" in the first place.

 

He excuses his un-Christian behavior by claiming that he is 'unfinished' or not fully 'perfected'.

His position is that there is an on-going process of 'finishing' or 'perfecting' that takes place during the Earthly lives of Christians. Therefore, he can cuss and badmouth and abuse others, because these actions proove that he is, as yet, unfinished and unperfected.

 

I aim to demonstrate to him that this is an un-Biblical, un-Christian notion.

No such process of 'on-going perfecting' exists within scripture. Therefore, he cannot use this dodge to excuse himself.

Therefore, as I have plainly shown from scripture, all of his sexual immorality, foul language and abuse stem from him NOT being a Christian at all. "You shall know them by their fruits", as Jesus aptly put it.

 

Taking the name of Jesus in vain, dishing out personal insults, using coarse language and inciting others to sexual immorality are not the behavioral (i.e., spiritual) fruit of an "Authentic Christian Believer".

 

So, thanks again and I'm glad this thread has caught your interest.

 

All the best,

 

BAA.

 

It can be argued totally logically that there is no such thing as authentic Christian believer. Just look at Mark Chapter 16 where Jesus himself states the signs that accompany true believers - casting out demons, laying hands on sick people and curing them & drinking poison and living to tell the tale! I don't know of anyone who has done any of this, let alone people I meet who call themselves Christians. How can anyone call themself a true believer unless they have done these things as defined by their God?

[chosendarkness]

 

It can be argued totally logically that there is no such thing as authentic Christian believer. Just look at Mark Chapter 16 where Jesus himself states the signs that accompany true believers - casting out demons, laying hands on sick people and curing them & drinking poison and living to tell the tale! I don't know of anyone who has done any of this, let alone people I meet who call themselves Christians. How can anyone call themself a true believer unless they have done these things as defined by their God?

It's amazing that we have people living here on the earth that are in a personal relationship with the Creator of the entire universe. That just blows me away. Of course they'll be able to do those things, they're hooked up with God himself, aren't they? Out of all the religions in the world, Christ is the only truth.. and they actually KNOW him! I'm really excited to see one of these Christians, they must be amazing.

[Guest end3]

Perhaps we should put this faith/works issue on hold for now. I'd like to hear your response about the role of the Holy Spirit first.

 

What I would say historically in my life as the roll of the HS is BAA, personal revelation. By that, I mean revealings, insights, connections, types, etc. into understandings I don't think I would have had myself. Sometimes it is with a physical response as well. And then sometimes it feels like an answer to what I am needing at the time. With these things, it brings comfort and peace.

[Guest end3]

Just saying BAA that if it is a relationship, then certainly it's a process. One could also argue for examples of God hardening peoples hearts to create a certain outcome. I personally believe that certain situations that might be presented to us as a "free choice" might be there intentionally as a step for maturity, or part of the process.

[R. S. Martin]

Okay, End, what sayest thou?

 

If you don't like the atheists expounding your scriptures for you then perhaps next time you will do it yourself.

 

Oh, let's see, you're not talking to me.

 

Whoopee! I can say whatever I like.

 

Well, I'm paying attention to you, R.S.

 

Thanks for the input here and 'Yes', I do generally agree with your criticisms of Christianity.

However, please note that I am in dialog with End3, not to persuade him that Christianity is false, but to show him that he is not an "Authentic Christian Believer" in the first place.

 

He excuses his un-Christian behavior by claiming that he is 'unfinished' or not fully 'perfected'.

His position is that there is an on-going process of 'finishing' or 'perfecting' that takes place during the Earthly lives of Christians. Therefore, he can cuss and badmouth and abuse others, because these actions proove that he is, as yet, unfinished and unperfected.

 

I aim to demonstrate to him that this is an un-Biblical, un-Christian notion.

No such process of 'on-going perfecting' exists within scripture. Therefore, he cannot use this dodge to excuse himself.

Therefore, as I have plainly shown from scripture, all of his sexual immorality, foul language and abuse stem from him NOT being a Christian at all. "You shall know them by their fruits", as Jesus aptly put it.

 

Taking the name of Jesus in vain, dishing out personal insults, using coarse language and inciting others to sexual immorality are not the behavioral (i.e., spiritual) fruit of an "Authentic Christian Believer".

 

So, thanks again and I'm glad this thread has caught your interest.

 

All the best,

 

BAA.

 

 

Thanks for your affirmation, BAA. To clarify. When I said End isn't talking to me I meant that he is giving me the silent treatment, has put me on ignore, or something like that. Not that he is in dialogue with someone else, like you seem to have taken it, but that for some reason or other he refuses to respond to me. Which, incidentally, allows me to say what I like without the consequences of having to deal with his displeasure.

 

I understand the point of your dialogue with him. I think you have a valid point. At the same time, I know that he is not unique in claiming Christian status and living the way he does. The idea that faith must be practiced by clean language and lifestyle is fairly new, as in having been developed in the past several centuries, perhaps. There was a time when to be alive in a certain part of the world meant to be baptized at birth and be a member of the church. Belief and practice (with practice=going to church and taking mass, baptizing your children, and doing the other things the church required) were just a way of life and thinking or worldview because you didn't know better. Today, that is called cultural religion.

 

I argue that, in comparison to Arab culture or Hindu or Chinese culture, it is still Christian because the God at the center of belief is called Jesus Christ. From a sociological perspective, that is what makes a Christian--belief in Christ as saviour. Theologically, "Christian" denotes whatever a specific church doctrine states. BAA, it seems to me that you are using the theology of your former church and slapping it onto End and saying if he doesn't measure up to it he isn't a Christian. Apparently, that does not jibe with his theology. And he has provided grounds for it. Whether you accept them is another matter.

 

Since you're asking for improved behaviour, I wish you well. But my point is that, in my opinion, the argument you are using is not very strong because it seems that for a vast majority of Christian believers, Christianity is more about right belief than about right behaviour. And a person who justifies bad behaviour with religion is a pretty hopeless case. Good luck in your mission. II consider it a good one.

[Guest end3]

Let me clarify for both of you. I agree that my behavior on occasion is less than stellar. I don't have any problem with labeling this type of behavior un-Chirst like. You yourself BAA, stated every Christian is unfinished until the day of the Lord. In this we agree. So I guess I am at a loss for what you would consider an Authentic Christian Believer to be? One with faith only? One with faith and imperfect actions? One with faith and perfect actions? None of the above?

 

And to be very specific, as I stated, if the HS introduces an avenue, a revelation, etc., then it can be summized that this could be evidence for leading. "Follow me" says Jesus. What is the Holy Spirit except Christ crucified? And if it is leading, then it could be a process, a process to holiness/sanctification. So what are the results of being lead? Because we are God, we can't know BAA.

 

And this seems to be the problem, we think we know, but we don't.

 

I have problems with people that I assume I can trust, and then they break that trust relationship. I don't see the need for readily dismissing trust based solely on professed beliefs. I think this shuts down understanding. And it happens alot here BAA. "Your are our/my meat" And you justify that by what particular belief?

 

It's tiring...oh so dreadfully tiring. Move thyself up to a new level.

[florduh]

I don't mean to derail, but this seems pertinent to me.

 

Spectrox said:

 

It can be argued totally logically that there is no such thing as authentic Christian believer. Just look at Mark Chapter 16 where Jesus himself states the signs that accompany true believers - casting out demons, laying hands on sick people and curing them & drinking poison and living to tell the tale! I don't know of anyone who has done any of this, let alone people I meet who call themselves Christians. How can anyone call themself a true believer unless they have done these things as defined by their God?

 

 

I would be interested how anyone claiming to be a Christian would address this issue. As a Christian, I never could. No one exhibits the signs that Jesus said a believer would exhibit. He made no mention of a "process" but simply said these abilities accompany and therefore indicate a believer.

[Ouroboros]

I don't mean to derail, but this seems pertinent to me.

 

Spectrox said:

 

It can be argued totally logically that there is no such thing as authentic Christian believer. Just look at Mark Chapter 16 where Jesus himself states the signs that accompany true believers - casting out demons, laying hands on sick people and curing them & drinking poison and living to tell the tale! I don't know of anyone who has done any of this, let alone people I meet who call themselves Christians. How can anyone call themself a true believer unless they have done these things as defined by their God?

 

 

I would be interested how anyone claiming to be a Christian would address this issue. As a Christian, I never could. No one exhibits the signs that Jesus said a believer would exhibit. He made no mention of a "process" but simply said these abilities accompany and therefore indicate a believer.

 

Our church argued that it was lack of faith that stopped Christians from having those signs. By reading the Bible, prayer a lot, fasting, speaking God's word over and over again... you would eventually have the faith to do the miracles. I never saw it happen. Not with me. Not with anyone.

 

Other Christians I met argued that this verse in the Bible shouldn't be taken literally. Drinking poison was what a Christian did when he was in the world and heard news and information (science?) and still maintained his faith. And healing was about emotional healing, not physical. It's so convenient that they can blame the "holy spirit" the "right™" interpretation just so they can make excuses for tricky verses.

[florduh]

Our church argued that it was lack of faith that stopped Christians from having those signs.

I heard that too, but it says the signs are exhibited by the believer, not that they are fruits of faith.

 

I even asked my pastor if he was a believer since the signs didn't exhibit in him. He said he was still too imperfect. The problem is, nothing about faith or perfection being required is in the Bible, so anything contrary to the words of Jesus is just made up by church leadership.

 

That is the problem with assuming the Bible is infallible and absolutely true. One must add to it (which is strictly prohibited!) to allow the obviously untrue to remain true!

[Ouroboros]

Our church argued that it was lack of faith that stopped Christians from having those signs.

I heard that too, but it says the signs are exhibited by the believer, not that they are fruits of faith.

Right. But you had to have faith to be a true believer. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Every Christian church has its own "logic" to reason these verses.

 

I even asked my pastor if he was a believer since the signs didn't exhibit in him. He said he was still too imperfect. The problem is, nothing about faith or perfection being required is in the Bible, so anything contrary to the words of Jesus is just made up by church leadership.

Right. There's a lot of that. For instance, why doesn't God answer prayers? Jesus said God will always answer prayers. Will a father give a rock to a son who asks for bread? Oh no. He won't. But the non-scriptural addendum says, God only answers if it's good for you, and sometimes he answers no or later. So basically, ask for bread, and God will say it's better if you starve to death instead of giving you bread. He won't give you a rock, but he won't give a bread either, because it's part of his master plan... But that's not what Jesus said, was it?

 

That is the problem with assuming the Bible is infallible and absolutely true. One must add to it (which is strictly prohibited!) to allow the obviously untrue to remain true!

Exactly. They have to weave an intricate web of half-lies to make it work, and then they call it The Truth™.

[bornagainathiest]

Perhaps we should put this faith/works issue on hold for now. I'd like to hear your response about the role of the Holy Spirit first.

 

What I would say historically in my life as the roll of the HS is BAA, personal revelation. By that, I mean revealings, insights, connections, types, etc. into understandings I don't think I would have had myself. Sometimes it is with a physical response as well. And then sometimes it feels like an answer to what I am needing at the time. With these things, it brings comfort and peace.

 

Ooops!

 

My bad End.

 

I didn't exactly make that clear, did I? What I should have written was, in the light of this...

 

The true purpose of the Holy Spirit (as far as I understand it) actually answers questions 1 thru 4.

However End, I've already covered this, to a degree. Fessing up to a mistake now! I said that I'd covered it in this thread. Nope! I erred when I wrote that. In fact, I covered it in that other thread, the one about the Genesis/Crucifixion connection.

So why don't you hop on over there and refresh your memory, eh?

Then get back to me and see if it's any clearer.

Deal?

For the sake of ease, I reproduce it below.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Everything becomes clear if you read the parable of the True Vine, in John 15: 1 - 17.John 15

The Vine and the Branches

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

 

No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. ...meaning, unless you decide to become a Christian, you cannot bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. The Book of Christianity is firmly shut until you decide to become one. This is why levels of holiness, maturity, etc. are irrelevant unless you decide to become a Christian.

 

apart from me you can do nothing. ...meaning, that no non-Christian has access to the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot bear the fruit of the Spirit. Once again, you must decide to become a Christian for that book to be opened unto you.

 

If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned....meaning, the fires of Hell await anyone who does not become and remain a Christian. Once again, your decision is vital!

 

This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples....meaning, that the sign of true Christianity is the spiritual fruit that Christians bear. Not their authority or learning, but their fruit. Please check what the Apostle Paul says about this in 1 Cornithians 13: 1 - 13. All of the Gifts of the Spirit (prophecy, tounges, knowledge, etc.) will pass away. They are just temporary tools for the building up of the church and to promote the growth of the Fruit of the Spirit. Once Christians are in heaven, there will be no need for the Gifts, because they will be complete. The Gifts are for this life, a short time of incompleteness.

 

However, neither the Gifts, nor the fruit are possible without Jesus - which is why you must decide to accept Him.

 

fruit that will last ...meaning, that while the gifts of the spirit pass away, the fruit lasts for all eternity, in heaven.

 

So then, working backwards from heaven.

A Christian's eternal spiritual fruit depends on them having access to the Holy Spirit - or rather, the Holy Spirit having access to their heart and mind. The Spirit not only gives them eternal life, but also empowers them with spiritual gifts (temporary) and causes their spiritual fruit (eternal) to grow and mature. The Christian cannot have the Holy Spirit without first making the conscious and deliberate decision to accept Christ's free offer of eternal salvation. So all of the above hangs on that one decision.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ok End, if you can get back to me with your reaction to the above, that'd be appreciated.

Remember now, the salient question is about the purpose of the Holy Spirit.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

Thank you for reposting that. I had forgotten to retrieve and review.

 

I don't see anything out of bounds here BAA. Two things stike me. The example set forth is that we are compared to a branch that grows and matures to produce fruit.....receiving nutrients and direction from the vine. I see this as affirming my point that it is a process, that insight and prompting from the Holy Spirit "grows" us towards maturity to produce Spiritual fruit.

 

Also, I don't think we can exclude the sovereignty of God......to communicate with whomever He wishes........remembering there is the scripture that says God draws people to Jesus. So, it makes me consider the difference in God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

[bornagainathiest]

Thanks for your affirmation, BAA. To clarify. When I said End isn't talking to me I meant that he is giving me the silent treatment, has put me on ignore, or something like that. Not that he is in dialogue with someone else, like you seem to have taken it, but that for some reason or other he refuses to respond to me. Which, incidentally, allows me to say what I like without the consequences of having to deal with his displeasure.

 

I understand the point of your dialogue with him. I think you have a valid point. At the same time, I know that he is not unique in claiming Christian status and living the way he does. The idea that faith must be practiced by clean language and lifestyle is fairly new, as in having been developed in the past several centuries, perhaps. There was a time when to be alive in a certain part of the world meant to be baptized at birth and be a member of the church. Belief and practice (with practice=going to church and taking mass, baptizing your children, and doing the other things the church required) were just a way of life and thinking or worldview because you didn't know better. Today, that is called cultural religion.

 

I argue that, in comparison to Arab culture or Hindu or Chinese culture, it is still Christian because the God at the center of belief is called Jesus Christ. From a sociological perspective, that is what makes a Christian--belief in Christ as saviour. Theologically, "Christian" denotes whatever a specific church doctrine states. BAA, it seems to me that you are using the theology of your former church and slapping it onto End and saying if he doesn't measure up to it he isn't a Christian. Apparently, that does not jibe with his theology. And he has provided grounds for it. Whether you accept them is another matter.

 

Since you're asking for improved behaviour, I wish you well. But my point is that, in my opinion, the argument you are using is not very strong because it seems that for a vast majority of Christian believers, Christianity is more about right belief than about right behaviour. And a person who justifies bad behaviour with religion is a pretty hopeless case. Good luck in your mission. II consider it a good one.

 

Hello again R.S.

 

With all due respect, I feel that I must take issue with one aspect of your reply, that which I've emboldened.

 

I cannot agree with that this is a fairly new phenomenon, being only a few centuries old. If we accept that the New Testament was written and then fully defined by about 325 A.D., that makes various exhortations to clean language and clean living within it, almost 1,700 years old. Not so much a new thing, after all.

 

The passages I'm thinking of are these...

 

The whole of Ephesians 5, but especially verses 3 and 4.

Galatians 5:13-26, but especially verses 19 to 21.

Matthew 15: 1-20, but especially verse 11 and verse 18 to 20.

 

There are other references, but i think that the point is made.

 

You see R.S., this ties in with what Jesus says, "By their fruits, you shall know them."

A person's (spiritual) fruit provides an independent, external check on their claim of being a Christian. If their claims do not match up to the fruit of their behavior, then their claim is false.

 

Please compare what I say here to my earlier comments on John 15.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[SimplyMe]

Are you actively trying to de-convert your old tribal friends and neighbors, or ignoring those who are floundering in their collective brainwashed delusion?

 

No. If I did, I'd resort back to that old way of thinking you praised atheists for due to leaving the faith. The old way of thinking that I need to spread the Word of God to save others. It's not my job.

 

Do you owe your old friends anything. IOW does your social conscience push you to de-convert others?

 

No, I don't owe anyone a thing, and no, my social conscience doesn't push me to deconvert others. Why would it or should it? So I can be one of those ranting, in your face, practically fundy atheists? No thank you, frankly they irritate me as much as fundy Christians. No one pushed me into leaving the faith back in 2005, it's something I came to all on my own.

 

We live in the age of information. Christians know we exist, they know there are atheists books, internet sites, etc. In fact, many Christians TEACH followers how to debate atheists....many of whom find this site and argue in the Lion's Den. You'll be hard pressed to find any who have heard logic and reason in the Lion's Den or even the more serious debate forums who saw the light and switched over to atheism.

 

My husband and children are unbelievers now. I didn't force them but discussions on God and the Bible came naturally and I shared all of it with them--which included our children who were 10 and 7 at the time. All of them left the faith about a year after me. Our daughter is agnostic and my husband and son are atheists.

 

I've had discussions with my other family members, as well as friends (some wanted nothing to do with me anymore), but there was no intent to deconvert them. They wanted to know what happened in my life so I told them.

 

Now, when a KJV only fundy approached me in the Barnes & Noble parking lot to bitch me out for buying mythical children books? Oh, I didn't hold back, I debated him right there in the parking lot and left him speechless. I also share the fact that I'm an ex-christian with Mormom's and Jehovah Witnesses come to my doorstep, but they leave with their tales tucked because I'm a sweetheart and they don't know how to debate me. They're prepared for your average unbeliever...quite another story when they're dealing with an Ex-Christian turned atheist.

 

In short, I refuse to treat others how I hate to be treated and I hate it when people try to push their beliefs on me. Therefore, I will not push my disbelief on them. I only bring up the subject if someone asks. Out of my Christian friends, only one discusses this with me pretty regularly and I consider her one of my best friends. On the occasion I'm facing a hardship, she's genuinely curious as to how I manage without faith--she has said, "Sandy, I don't know how you do it. I can't imagine going through what you are without belief. I wouldn't know what to do." Do I say, "Well, really you've done it alone by yourself all this time"? No. She knows I don't believe, she knows why I left the faith, she knows I do it on my own. In a way, by me living an example, I am "teaching" believers about atheism.

[SimplyMe]

So, Greatest I am...when are YOU going to hop a plane to Africa or Afghanistan and enlighten those who are not exposed to the same information that believers here in the states have readily available at their fingertips. After all, you did write something to the effect that we'd still be swinging in trees if humans kept there mouths shut. There's no lack of information here in the States, so really, you should go to where humans truly need to know "the truth" because there's no possible way the could know better. ;-)

[bornagainathiest]

Thank you for reposting that. I had forgotten to retrieve and review.

 

No problem, End.

 

I don't see anything out of bounds here BAA. Two things stike me. The example set forth is that we are compared to a branch that grows and matures to produce fruit.....receiving nutrients and direction from the vine. I see this as affirming my point that it is a process, that insight and prompting from the Holy Spirit "grows" us towards maturity to produce Spiritual fruit.

 

Agreed.

This is the process I've been building up to in our dialog.

Not the process of 'perfection', which, as I hope I've shown, isn't a process at all, but an event.

But before I could get here, I first had to explain to you how being 'perfected' was not part of any such process. You've been so tightly focused on 'moving up to the next level' and 'working towards perfection' that it's been difficult to get you to step back a minute and look at the wider view. This wider view involves seeing things from God's p.o.v., not your own. After all, it's His show, isn't it? Not yours.

 

Now, if you recall, I'd said that such things as 'perfecting' were part of the finished work of Jesus and apply to all believers, no matter where and when they were born or will be born. Though He completed and finished His task 2,000 years ago, what He did applies retroactively to Old Testament believers (the cloud of witnesses) just as much as it applied to the New Testament believers like the Apostles, Mary, Martha, Lazarus, et al. In the same way His work applied to all the Christian believers thru the ages. It applies to those living today and it will also apply in equal measure to those who have yet to be born.

 

So, that which applies equally to all believers throughout history cannot therefore be any kind of process a single believer has to go thru in their lifetime. This means that we MUST drop the idea of there being a process of perfection in the lives of Christians. It's simultaneously a done and finished thing as well as being a promise for the future. Jesus has completed the difficult part on the cross, long ago, the Holy Spirit has regenerated you and God the Father will finish the job at some point in the future.

 

Now, I'd just like to run with this idea of Christ's work applying to past, present and future for a moment, before we get back to the process of growing the fruit of the Spirit, ok?

 

In the following passage Paul lists the vitally important things that have been done, are being done and will be done for all believers by their God.

I'll say a little about each of them, but the important point is that they all fall into the same category as the 'perfecting' God will do to His children. None of these things are to be done, performed ,worked at, prayed for or even attempted by any Christians. Just as God promised to 'perfect' all true believers, only when they are together in heaven, all of these following things are God's work and God's work alone. As such, nothing here is part of any kind of process that happens on Earth, during a Christians mortal life. No processes for you to go thru, ok End?

 

Romans 8: 28-30.

²⁸ And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who^[i] have been called according to his purpose. ²⁹ For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. ³⁰ And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

Foreknew

Having perfect all-knowledge, it comes as no surprise then that God knew the identities of each and every Christian before He created time and space and the whole universe. Perfect foreknowledge is simply one of His many attributes.

 

Predestined

Knowing in advance just who would or wouldn't become a Christian, it was His pleasure to see that they would become like His Son. This is a spiritual likeness. Specifically, true believers would come to bear the same spiritual fruit that Jesus displayed on Earth. This fruit is, of course; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control.

 

Called

Each and every Christian is called (prompted) to accept Jesus as Savior and Lord thru the workings of the Holy Spirit in their hearts and minds. It is their part to respond to that calling, according to God's foreknowledge and predestination. Please note End, that even though this one involves individual Christians, it is not a process - it is a decision. The work is all done by the Holy Spirit. All you have to do is to accept it.

 

Justified

Christians are automatically forgiven their sins and justified before God the Father, because they have been raised out of a state of spiritual death and made spiritually alive in Christ. Since the Father loves the Son, so He also loves those who belong to His Son. Their sin has been washed away by Jesus' blood and they now can stand, justified and unafraid and unashamed in the presence of the Father.

 

Glorified

We know from the Transfiguration (and other instances in scripture) that the bodies of true believers shine with heavenly glory and so it will be on the Last Day, when their re-born spirits will be clothed in new and imperishable bodies. But not before then.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So End, Paul's list is couched in terms of the past (glorified, not will glorify or is glorifying) yet applies outside of time as well as to the past, to the present and to the future.

 

Foreknowledge and Predestination occurred in the timeless eternity 'before' God created the heavens and the Earth. All believers were just thoughts in His infinite mind and they needed Him to create time and space for them to exist. Once the universe came into being, generation after generation of humans could then be Called to become Christians, in accordance with His will. This calling is taking place today and will continue into the future for as long as He sees fit.

All who answered the calling have been Justified. All who are answering the calling are being justified. All who will answer the calling will be justified.

The flipside of this is that ALL believers will also be justified in the future, before the throne of God, in heaven.

 

All believers have inherited the promise of future Glorification. Not just those who lived long ago, but those alive now and those who are, as yet, unborn. Their glorification and perfection will happen when every generation of believer is together in heaven, united as one people - not before.

 

Now, just to re-cap...

End3 plays no part in God foreknowing him, before creation.

End3 plays no part in God predestining him, before creation.

During his mortal life, End3 does the only thing God requires of him when he's called - he responds.

End3 plays no part in God justifying him, Jesus has already done that.

End3 plays no part in God glorifying him, God will do that in heaven.

Likewise, End3 plays no part in perfecting himself, because God will perfect him only when he perfects all the other believers as well.

 

Now End, please indicate that you've understood and accepted that there is no process of Christian 'perfection' for your to go thru in this life.

(In other words, please answer in the affirmative, or at the very least, indicate if you have any problems that need further explanation. Thanks in advance.)

.

Only once you've overcome this personal stumbling block of yours, can we then go on to deal with the vitally important process God does want you to go thru - allowing the Holy Spirit to grow the Fruit of the Spirit within you.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

Romans 8: 28-30.

²⁸ And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who^[i] have been called according to his purpose. ²⁹ For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. ³⁰ And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

Still having issues BAA. For instance, in your list, I see you mention predestined, but leave out "to be conformed". My question is: why is "to be conformed" not part of a process. Can one be glorified without being conformed. How are we glorified except by the same process that Christ endured. And this comes, IMO, only through the Holy Spirit within us. John 17:23.

 

I DO however, see your point in that the glorification is an event.

 

 

Only once you've overcome this personal stumbling block of yours, can we then go on to deal with the vitally important process God does want you to go thru - allowing the Holy Spirit to grow the Fruit of the Spirit within you.

 

Off the cuff BAA, I would think fruits of the Spirit might be different than the purpose.

 

I will be glad to hear your response. Very challenging for me BAA, Thanks,

 

Btw, what is your background/story, if you don't mind me asking. You seem to have spent alot of time with this. Thanks again.

[bornagainathiest]

Romans 8: 28-30.

²⁸ And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who^[i] have been called according to his purpose. ²⁹ For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. ³⁰ And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

Still having issues BAA. For instance, in your list, I see you mention predestined, but leave out "to be conformed". My question is: why is "to be conformed" not part of a process.

 

Ah yes End, it is a process. Exactly so. But I left it out for two reasons.

Firstly, because you are close to obsessing about some kind process of perfecting that you feel you have to go thru.

Secondly, because of what the process of being 'conformed to the image of the Son' actually means.

There are many, many things it doesn't mean and there are many, many Christians who, sadly, focus all of their attention on what it doesn't mean because they are confused about just what, the IMAGE of the Son means. They look at Jesus' miracles, they look at His sufferings, at His dealings with Satan, at this and at that and at almost every other aspect of Him than the one that really counts - His nature.

His character.

His personality.

a.k.a as His IMAGE.

 

As I said before, this is a spiritual image.

Therefore, true believers should make it their business to become conformed to the spiritual image of the Son.

Actually End, you have the key to understanding what this means in your hand, so to speak... John17:23.

 

Can one be glorified without being conformed. In a word, no.

How are we glorified except by the same process that Christ endured. How about being glorified by being conformed to His image?

And this comes, IMO, only through the Holy Spirit within us. John 17:23.

 

John 17:20-24.

²⁰ “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, ²¹ that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. ²² I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— ²³I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

²⁴ “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

 

Q. How is the world to know that Jesus was sent by God the Father and that the Father loves them as he loves His Son?

A. Because Jesus is in them and they are in complete unity - the same unity enjoyed by all three members of the Trinity.

 

Do you see how simple it is?

Above everthing else is unity and love. Nothing else matters. Everything else is just detail that too often gets in the way.

Of paramount importance is that the world knows about this unity and love by seeing two things. First that Jesus was sent by the Father and second, that the Father loves those who love His Son.

 

John 17 : 23 tells us how the world will know these things, that is, how it will recognize true Christianity when it sees it.

John 15 : 8 also tells us how the world (and other Christians) will recognize true Christianity when they see it.

Remember this?

"This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."

 

I DO however, see your point in that the glorification is an event. Attaboy!

 

 

Only once you've overcome this personal stumbling block of yours, can we then go on to deal with the vitally important process God does want you to go thru - allowing the Holy Spirit to grow the Fruit of the Spirit within you.

 

Off the cuff BAA, I would think fruits of the Spirit might be different than the purpose.

 

Nope. The fruits ARE the purpose. How else can you become like Jesus, except by resembling His spiritual image?

 

I will be glad to hear your response. Very challenging for me BAA, Thanks,

 

Btw, what is your background/story, if you don't mind me asking. You seem to have spent alot of time with this. Thanks again.

 

(cont...)

[bornagainathiest]

(continuing...)

 

Off the cuff BAA, I would think fruits of the Spirit might be different than the purpose.

 

Ok, I said that the Fruits of the Spirit are the purpose.

They are, in the context of the process of Christians becoming more Christ-like, which is what we are discussing right now.

 

Obviously, the Holy Spirit has other roles and functions, but Christians are easily confused as to which is most important.

Some develop a love of waging spiritual warfare with the powers of darkness. Others place great emphasis on the the gifts of tongues, healing, prophecy, etc. Others focus on 'bringing in the kingdom' and devote themselves to evangelization and outreach. And so it goes.

 

Now End, I'm not saying that these things are wrong or bad or shouldn't be done. No. What I am saying is that these things are secondary to the main purpose of the Holy Spirit working in a Christian's life. The main task of the Spirit is to conform believers to Christ's spiritual image, in accordance with God's eternal plan. He foreknows, predestines and calls Christians to be conformed to the image of His Son, thereby justifying and glorifying them. That is His plan. Everything else is just distraction.

 

Using spiritual gifts, evangelizing and waging spiritual warfare come after a Christian has bourne good spiritual fruit.

How can it be otherwise?

 

If a Christian doesn't have the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control in their lives, how can they use the Gifts of the Spirit properly? That was part Paul's written instruction to the Corinthian Christians, who were misusing their spiritual gifts. They couldn't do so properly without unity, so he explained about the unity and diversity of the human body. Then he went on to write... "And yet I will show you the most excellent way."

 

1 Corinthians 13

¹ If I speak in the tongues^[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. ² If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. ³ If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,^[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

⁴ Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. ⁵ It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. ⁶ Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. ⁷ It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

⁸ Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. ⁹ For we know in part and we prophesy in part, ¹⁰ but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. ¹¹ When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. ¹² For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

¹³ And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

So, there are two interlinked messages to heed here, End.

First, love is everything.

Without love, even the greatest of spiritual gifts mean nothing.

Second, the gifts are temporary but love lasts forever.

 

Now cast your mind back to John 15 and the True Vine passage and compare what it says with the above Corinthians passage.

 

This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

See that? Christians give glory to the Father, not by casting out demons, nor by evangelizing nor by their use of tongues or prophecy. No. But by bearing much fruit. That is why Paul said that the gifts mean nothing unless you have love, the most excellent of the fruit.

 

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Fruit that will last.

The gifts will pass away, but the fruit will last forever because the love that binds the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is eternal.

As Christians become more Christ-like, so they begin to share in this eternal love, displaying perfect unity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Then and only then, once they have these things in abundance, will they be fit to use the Spirit's gifts. Then, whatever they ask in Jesus' name, the father will gladly give them, be it gifts of prophecy or healing or discernment, etc. That's because, having been conformed to the spiritual image of the Son (by bearing much spiritual fruit) they will know the will of the Father and be wise enough to use His gift's properly.

 

Also, note that it is God that chooses (foreknows and predestines) not men. Too often Christians only see things from their own p.o.v., a tightly focused, severely limited viewpoint, encompassing only the brief span of their mortal lives.

 

The fruit lasts forever. The fruit ARE Christ's character, nature and image. You want to become more like Christ?

Then put everything else to one side and consider what fruit you bear.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[freespirit]

No, I don't try to convert them much. I am happy to share my story to ears that are interested. Many people are simply in a certain place in their journey and I feel I have no real right to upset that. I just try to accept people as they are.

[bornagainathiest]

Hi End!

 

Sorry for the rather abrupt termination of my posting but other matters conspired to force me to close up my laptop and attend to them a.s.a.p.

As such, I never got round to answering your questions.

 

 

End3 wrote...

Btw, what is your background/story, if you don't mind me asking. You seem to have spent alot of time with this. Thanks again.

 

 

As a Christian, I was part of this church. http://en.wikipedia....urch_of_America

 

However, when it comes to my understanding of Christianity I have to say that I made only faltering progress in understanding the scriptures while I was a Born Again Evangelical Christian. It was only after I left, de-converted and became an Ex-Christian that I really started to understand how things should work. Yes, I know this sounds odd. You'd think that while I was in a loving and united community of believers that the Holy Spirit would have opened the Bible to me, right?

 

Nope!

 

I now know why this was - or at least I have a pretty good idea as to why. I can sum it all up in two words... BURN OUT!

 

I was busy Christian.

I was such a busy Christian.

I was such a very, very active, committed and busy Christian!

Busy with outreach (twice a week in the mall or elsewhere on the streets), busy with Bible study (three times a week), busy helping out with the church children's group (once a week) as well as holding down my regular job. Add to that; visiting the sick and praying over them (sometimes for hours on end), driving disabled brothers and sisters to and from church twice or three times on Sunday, doing the shopping and getting the meds for the needy and the sick and then trying to find some quality quiet time to pray and meditate.

 

All very commendable, noble and worthy.

But....

 

 

 

But I now see that what I was doing was filling up every available hour with Christian 'busy-ness', thinking and fooling myself that more was better. That more effort and more committment equaled a better and closer walk with Christ. Well End, guess what? Yep. It wasn't.

 

Eventually I couldn't keep up the with the increasing demands on me and so I burned out and crashed. I won't go into the specifics of my loss of faith and my de-conversion that followed right, ok? However, I will say this. If my church had been as united and loving as the Apostle Paul exhorted the N.T. churches to be, then they should have been there for me when I crashed, shouldn't they? That's how the Body of Christ is supposed to function, isn't it? When one part suffers the other parts care for and heal that part, right? I was there for them; day in, day out, week in, week out, for y-e-a-r-s.

Over a decade, in fact. You'd think that my sudden abscence might be noticed? Hmmm? Or the fact that I lived less than four miles from our church would make it easy for somebody... anybody, to drive over, cycle over or even walk over and just check up on me, huh?

 

Once again, nope!

 

So you see End, in the months and years afterwards I pondered why this was and, even though I went on to give up on God completely, I still looked into the scriptures for some kind of meaning or explanation for what happened.

 

Why did so much activity yield so little unity? Why did so much committment yield so little love?

 

So the answer is, Yes.

Yes, I have gone into this deeply and spent a lot of time on it. Sadly, for reasons outside of Christianity.

 

I hope this is of interest.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.