Repenting After Death

[centauri]

Warning that the end of all things is near is a prediction.

Only in the mind of an apologist can "near" and "soon" mean thousands of years.

That's what happens when predictions fail.

 

Centauri, I am grieved that after all this time, you still do not realize in christianese, words mean exactly what the Christian says they mean, no more, no less.

 

Where's Lewis Carroll when we need him?

 

Glory!

Apologists did give me a new appreciation for Humpty Dumpty.

I think of that quote every time I read the excuses they come up with.

[OrdinaryClay]

In other words, you can't provide validation from the Hebrew scriptures to confirm your claim.

Special pleading is not scriptural confirmation.

You haven't established that the New Testament is the product of the Hebrew God.

That's just another layer of wishful thinking on your part.

 

 

The New Testament is special revelation just as is the Old Testament. Much of what the New Testament teaches is corroborated by the Old Testament and is a fulfilment of prophesy. In addition it contains new revelation and clarifying revelation. Just as many of the books of the Old Testament build on each other culminating in what we call the Old Testament.

 

Harmony does exist in the Bible. Just because you or I may not understand some details hardly breaks the harmony. Not understanding something does not make what you don't understand wrong. The relationship within God's omniscience can be shown here.

 

 

In the case of satan, the verses such as those in Job and Zechariah start building the case for satan and who he is. In both the following cases satan is an adversary and accuser. While this is limited information, it does not conflict with the details we learn in the New Testament. It would have to conflict within the details in the New Testament for it to break harmony as you claim. It does not.

 

Zec 3:1

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

 

Job 2

 

 

In order for you to claim a special plead on my part you need to show that my reasoning is unsound and simply there to plead an exception. This is not the case. You say I'm special pleading but you don't actually show the specific information you claim I'm pleading.

[OrdinaryClay]

OC, for me to provide the explanations you'd like, you and I first have to agree on our terminology and the meaning of the terms we use. I ask because I once debated the meaning of Repeatability in science with the author of this book... http://www.miraclesormagic.com/

 

Can you show me where you had the debate? I'd like to read it.

 

 

So, please provide a full and detailed explanation of your understanding of the highlighted terms you use in your request.

 

"Please explain how the multiverse evidence (which does not exist at the moment) will be observable and not repeatable. I think you are confusing repeatable with falsifiable.

 

If and when they find the evidence for a multiverse reality it will have to be repeatable or no scientist will pay any attention. Empirical evidence must be repeatable. There is a lot of skepticism within the physics community that such evidence can be had."

 

Thank you.

 

BAA.

 

You are asking fair questions. Here are the definitions I use ...

Evidence

Observable

Repeatable

Falsifiable

For Emperical, I assume it must be repeatable as well as observable

[OrdinaryClay]

Eph 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Without the works, the faith is dead.

Without the works, salvation is not assured.

The whole duty of man is to keep the commands.

That's work.

 

 

Eph 2:9 can not be any clearer.

 

You have it backward. A proper and genuine husband, for example, loves his wife not because of what she does for him. Likewise the wife. The couple do works for each other because they love each other. The works are the fruit of the spirit. They are the results and evidence of our salvation which was given to us for free. When we have the Spirit of God with us and with in us, the works flow naturally. James was warning against hypocrisy.

 

Rom 3:27-28

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

 

 

1Sa 16:7

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

And David proclaimed that salvation is far from the wicked for they seek not the law.

Obedience is work.

 

1 Sa 16:7 shows that God can not be fooled by hypocrisy. The verses below show how God seeks a broken and lowly spirit and not works.

 

 

Psalms 34:18

Jehovah is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart, And saveth such as are of a contrite spirit.

 

Psalms 51:17

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

 

Isaiah 57:15

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

 

Isaiah 66:2

For all these things hath my hand made, and so all these things came to be, saith Jehovah: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and that trembleth at my word.

 

 

Hosea 6:6

For I desire goodness, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt-offerings.

[mcdaddy]

In other words, you can't provide validation from the Hebrew scriptures to confirm your claim.

Special pleading is not scriptural confirmation.

You haven't established that the New Testament is the product of the Hebrew God.

That's just another layer of wishful thinking on your part.

 

 

The New Testament is special revelation just as is the Old Testament. Much of what the New Testament teaches is corroborated by the Old Testament and is a fulfilment of prophesy. In addition it contains new revelation and clarifying revelation. Just as many of the books of the Old Testament build on each other culminating in what we call the Old Testament.

 

Harmony does exist in the Bible. Just because you or I may not understand some details hardly breaks the harmony. Not understanding something does not make what you don't understand wrong. The relationship within God's omniscience can be shown here.

 

 

In the case of satan, the verses such as those in Job and Zechariah start building the case for satan and who he is. In both the following cases satan is an adversary and accuser. While this is limited information, it does not conflict with the details we learn in the New Testament. It would have to conflict within the details in the New Testament for it to break harmony as you claim. It does not.

 

Zec 3:1

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

 

Job 2

 

 

In order for you to claim a special plead on my part you need to show that my reasoning is unsound and simply there to plead an exception. This is not the case. You say I'm special pleading but you don't actually show the specific information you claim I'm pleading.

 

*Self-annihilating facepalm*

 

Christians claim humility on the one hand, and omniscience on the other.

 

For once, I'd LOVE to hear just one say, "NOW, I COULD BE WRONG ABOUT ALL THIS...". but you'll never get that.

 

the arrogance is unbelievable.

[mcdaddy]

I'd love it if some character came along, claimed to fulfill a bunch of NT "prophecies", and start a new religion, and then have its adherents point at christians and tell them how stupid they are to not recognize how this character so *obviously* fulfilled their own prophecies, while they didnt recognize it. Youre saying the Jews are so ****ing dense and stupid they dont even know what their own "messiah" would do or be like?

 

man i'd love to see those tables turned.

[BrotherJosh]

I'd love it if some character came along, claimed to fulfill a bunch of NT "prophecies", and start a new religion, and then have its adherents point at christians and tell them how stupid they are to not recognize how this character so *obviously* fulfilled their own prophecies, while they didnt recognize it. Youre saying the Jews are so ****ing dense and stupid they dont even know what their own "messiah" would do or be like?

 

man i'd love to see those tables turned.

 

You mean Joseph Smith?

[mcdaddy]

TOUCHE!!!

 

I was thinking something more along the lines of islam but it didnt really cut the mustard. Good ol' Joe. what a freaking nut.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

This does not say the reason God acted was to eliminate evil. He was punishing the evil in the men of that day.

So God wanted evil to restart all over again?

He not only punished humans, he punished other creatures of his creation.

You've yet to explain how such crass and callous behavior equals "good".

 

Evil exists as when free willed creatures act against God's will.

You haven't established that humans have universal "free will".

The Bible indicates the otherwise.

God also manipulates humans to influence their behavior.

The existence of evil is a product of God per Isa 45:7.

 

satan and his demons were not destroyed in the flood, so evil continued during and after the flood. Evil sprouts up when free willed agents sin.

Evil sprouted up when God created it.(Isa 45:7)

There is no support from the Old Testament that satan has demons or that satan is evil.

 

1Co 2:11

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

 

You as a created limited being can not know all God's reasons and all the facts therefore you can not pass judgement on God.

Then you can't do it either.

You pass judgment on God all the time by claiming he's good.

 

Isa 29:16

You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

 

There are several theodicies that solve the problem of evil in modern theology.

It's no mystery.

Evil emerged from the same source that created all things. (Isa 45:7)

 

God wants justice.

 

Isa 45:7

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

 

Isa 45:7 refers to physical disasters. This is not the evil resulting from free. True evil is from the hearts of free willed beings. God created the universe with the laws of nature. Physical disasters happen.

 

I don't claim to know the thoughts of God. That is why He gives us His special revelation. We know God's will through His revelation. He tells us He is good.

 

The Bible tells us not to choose to do evil. Precisely because we have a free will.

 

Pro 3:31

Do not envy a man of violence And do not choose any of his ways.

[OrdinaryClay]

1 Peter 4:7 states that the end of all things was near.

That prophecy was a flat out failure that gets ignored by apologists for obvious reasons.

 

 

This is not a failed prophecy. He makes no prediction as to when, and he does not even claim it as prophecy.

 

1Pe 4:7

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

Warning that the end of all things is near is a prediction.

Only in the mind of an apologist can "near" and "soon" mean thousands of years.

That's what happens when predictions fail.

 

 

This is not proclaimed by Peter to be a prophecy. This is not proclaimed by Peter as a word of God. In context He is simply warning his brothers and sisters that Christ may come at any time. No one knows the time and place as Christ said so Peter can not be prophesying as to when.

 

Mat 24:36

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

[mcdaddy]

What's your evidence Peter was anything more than a character in historical fiction?

[OrdinaryClay]

Here I show that Jesus was not necessarily there to offer salvation. The word can simply mean proclaiming or publishing something. The verse does not have enough information for us to conclude why He was there, or what the place was other than a prison for spirits.

 

 

Anyway, the inference in question is this...

 

With the preachers Jonah, John the Baptist, Jesus, the Apostles Peter and John and with the Apostle Paul, we see the same scenario, featuring the same three elements, played out in the same way. First, there is the one who preaches. Second, there is an audience. Lastly, there is, "THE CHOICE". The audience are always called to make a free and conscious choice, based upon the words of the preacher. The thrust of the preacher's words is always the same - make a choice. Three elements. Always.

I'm sorry your inference does not hold. You make two errors: 1) you are assuming far more than we know with regards to that Scripture, 2) you ignore the additional information we have regarding repentance after death. We have other scripture that tells us the dead can not repent. You have a Scripture that says Jesus proclaimed openly some information to spirits in prison. A judge can both explain to an adjudicated person they have a second chance or he can explain they have lost the case and justice must be served. You are simply assuming a choice where none is stated or inferred.

 

Al the people you mention including Christ all proclaimed judgement as well as the good news of salvation. They gave bad news and good news. An example follows ...

 

Act 5:9

Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."

 

 

I have already established that the Phulakean spirits are not in the same state of soul-sleep as the Hadean spirits. They are being actively imprisoned. They are not in passive storage. The inference is clear and obvious. Only active and aware prisoners have the hope of escaping their prison. Inactive, sleeping spirits require no imprisonment.

There is no inference that they are faced with a choice. I agree they are active and aware, but that in no way means they were given a choice. It does not follow.

[OrdinaryClay]

Yeah, we all know that. My stuff is after years of observations as this intrigued me from 16 or so and I have had numerous discussions with many folk over the years. Not once did I hear of NDE's or OOBE's. Back then we were into the concept of astral travel - new agey even for the 70's.

Are you saying you experienced dreams you were trying then to interpret as astral travel?

No we thought this stuff was real, what do teens know. The religions had no explanations and of course astral travel is demonic (or anything a scientific illiterate priest cannot explain) You even alluded to that earlier wrt necromancy.

 

I do not believe in astral travel. Again it all happens in the head in a living brain. I had a dream I attributed to that till I learned better how the brain works, was just my mind playing tricks on me. Never had one as an adult 25 yo on.

 

I never had a dream that I though was astral travel. That must have been one crazy set of dreams.

[OrdinaryClay]

Christians claim humility on the one hand, and omniscience on the other.

 

For once, I'd LOVE to hear just one say, "NOW, I COULD BE WRONG ABOUT ALL THIS...". but you'll never get that.

 

the arrogance is unbelievable.

 

 

Christians talk about doubt all the time. When I was younger I had some doubts, but these have gone. I'm being honest not arrogant. The more I studied all aspects of the world, science, history, people and the Bible. The more convinced I became of the truth of Jesus Christ. I still have unanswered questions, but I'm certain the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Creator of the universe and there is an afterlife.

 

Here is a good video on doubt by Dr Craig.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

I'd love it if some character came along, claimed to fulfill a bunch of NT "prophecies", and start a new religion, and then have its adherents point at christians and tell them how stupid they are to not recognize how this character so *obviously* fulfilled their own prophecies, while they didnt recognize it. Youre saying the Jews are so ****ing dense and stupid they dont even know what their own "messiah" would do or be like?

 

man i'd love to see those tables turned.

 

You mean Joseph Smith?

 

 

Joseph Smith was an occultist. You can read parts of his story here. He used scrying to dictate the book of mormon. His wife Emma Smith wrote while he was scrying. Mormonism has nothing to do with Christianity.

[centauri]

In other words, you can't provide validation from the Hebrew scriptures to confirm your claim.

Special pleading is not scriptural confirmation.

You haven't established that the New Testament is the product of the Hebrew God.

That's just another layer of wishful thinking on your part.

 

The New Testament is special revelation just as is the Old Testament.

And the Book of Mormon is also a special revelation.

 

Much of what the New Testament teaches is corroborated by the Old Testament and is a fulfilment of prophesy.

The New Testament character called "Jesus" does not fulfill the requirements for a king messiah as defined in the Old Testament.

 

In addition it contains new revelation and clarifying revelation. Just as many of the books of the Old Testament build on each other culminating in what we call the Old Testament.

The New Testament revises the precepts set down in the Old Testament under the guise of a new revelation.

 

In order for you to claim a special plead on my part you need to show that my reasoning is unsound and simply there to plead an exception. This is not the case.

You’re special pleading by saying the New Testament is exempt from being classified as teaching contrary to scripture. It undermines the Old Testament in numerous areas.

It changes the rules for salvation.

It changes the requirements for a king messiah.

It changes the priesthood, inventing a new one for Jesus.

It undermines God’s law, claiming that a messianic impostor took it out of the way.

It redefines the new covenant, claiming that faith in a human sacrifice replaces the law.

It promotes an illegal sin sacrifice as providing atonement.

It makes unsupported claims about Satan, redefining one of God’s created beings, turning it into an enemy of God.

Abandoning the word and creating new doctrines is what the Hebrew deity told his people not to do.

 

You say I'm special pleading but you don't actually show the specific information you claim I'm pleading.

You’ve already claimed the correct version of Satan is the New Testament version.

This version is not confirmed or validated by the Old Testament.

The key element, rebellion of Satan against God, has no basis in the Old Testament.

Neither of these passages (Zech or Job) establishes Satan as rebelling against God.

Satan never disobeys a command from God in the Old Testament.

The New Testament uses Satan as a whipping boy in an effort to validate its doctrine of dualism, where God and a "Devil" fight each other.

 

Not understanding something does not make what you don't understand wrong. The relationship within God's omniscience can be shown here.

 

In the case of satan, the verses such as those in Job and Zechariah start building the case for satan and who he is. In both the following cases satan is an adversary and accuser. While this is limited information, it does not conflict with the details we learn in the New Testament. It would have to conflict within the details in the New Testament for it to break harmony as you claim. It does not.

There is nothing in the Old Testament that says Satan ever rebelled against God or fell from heaven.

 

Harmony does exist in the Bible. Just because you or I may not understand some details hardly breaks the harmony.

The alleged harmony is superficial and shallow.

The New Testament comes along claiming it has authority to change doctrine and rules.

Undermining precepts and doctrines, which the New Testament does, is not harmony.

It’s revisionist theology.

[mymistake]

 

 

I will never understand Bible porn.

 

the arrogance is unbelievable.

 

Yes.

[Astreja]

Joseph Smith was an occultist.

 

OrdinaryClay, I find it fascinating that you think Joseph Smith was an occultist but do not apply the same label to Jesus. Between shuttling demons from people to pigs, attacking a fig tree with Finger of Death and transmuting water into wine, he'd fit right in as a D&D magic-user.

 

(Disclaimer: I, Myself am an archmage as well as a goddess -- Ex-Golden Dawn dabbler, White Robe per the Wayreth convention, freelance seiðkona, and Gygaxian alignment Chaotic Frilly. )

[centauri]

Eph 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Without the works, the faith is dead.

Without the works, salvation is not assured.

The whole duty of man is to keep the commands.

That's work.

 

Eph 2:9 can not be any clearer.

 

You have it backward. A proper and genuine husband, for example, loves his wife not because of what she does for him. Likewise the wife. The couple do works for each other because they love each other. The works are the fruit of the spirit. They are the results and evidence of our salvation which was given to us for free.

You’re relying on Paul and ignoring Jesus, Peter, and the Old Testament.

You have to believe, confess belief, repent, be baptized, maintain belief, and do at least some works of charity to qualify for salvation.

These actions are works, and are to be done by the individual, they are not free.

They are not simply by-products because if you don’t do them you don’t get saved.

The only way you by-pass these stipulations is to be predestined to salvation, in which case your fate was already decided and so-called "free will" is moot.

The Old Testament requires obedience to the law and that’s a work as well.

Contrary to Paul’s theology, works do save.

 

When we have the Spirit of God with us and with in us, the works flow naturally. James was warning against hypocrisy

If the works aren’t performed salvation is not ensured.

Belief and maintaining belief are works, as are repenting, being baptized, and charity.

The Spirit of God is with those that obey, not with those that pick and choose how much they want to do.

That’s the decree of Jesus in Matthew 25.

Those that do not perform charity are damned.

Your theology also turns Peter’s instructions on repenting and being baptized into little more than window dressing.

Keeping the law is also a work, it doesn’t flow automatically.

The Hebrew God certainly isn’t going to be with people that pick and choose which laws are relevant, which is what Christianity does.

 

Rom 3:27-28

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Salvation according to the Hebrew God is based on repenting and keeping the law.

Faith motivates obedience to the law, it is not apart from the law.

Paul’s theology attempts to vilify the law and replace it with something else, namely faith in a human sacrifice.

 

1Sa 16:7

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

 

And David proclaimed that salvation is far from the wicked for they seek not the law.

Obedience is work.

 

1 Sa 16:7 shows that God can not be fooled by hypocrisy. The verses below show how God seeks a broken and lowly spirit and not works.

 

 

Psalms 34:18

Jehovah is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart, And saveth such as are of a contrite spirit.

 

Psalms 51:17

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

 

Isaiah 57:15

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

 

Isaiah 66:2

For all these things hath my hand made, and so all these things came to be, saith Jehovah: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and that trembleth at my word.

 

 

Hosea 6:6

For I desire goodness, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt-offerings.

A contrite spirit will obey the law.

Obeying the law is a work.

Seek the law and salvation is in your grasp.

If you do the work, you save your soul.

 

Psa 119:155

Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

 

Ezek 18:27

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

[LivingLife]

OC just a tip. Using eSword here is a waste of time with the screen shots of the Strong's Concordance. It is not a very useful tool if you are really looking for the origins of scriptures. You are still using the bible to prove the bible and is circular logic.

 

You are assuming we never looked at this and that we did not study (I mean really study) the bible first hand. I used it extensively but I also looked at the more scholarly renditions of folk that traced back origins of the bible and the church.

 

The gospels are NOT first hand accounts and there is a lot of embellishment. The epistles are really all garbage and more evidence of a new religion being invented by someone attributed to a Paul character. You have been duped pal. None of it is real.

 

There is so much you are unaware of, it would take me months to walk you through it all.

 

I have a summary in my own words how this transpired and will try find it and share it here.

 

Before I write you off as a troll, you are obviously using what knowledge you have and are looking deeper than most folk but you still have a huge confirmation bias. IOW you need for this to be true at this juncture. We all went through this phase.

 

It is not like we were fooled by satan or were looking for an excuse to leave. The realisation that it was all BS (various reasons) was a painful exit for us all.

 

It is hard to admit you were lied to and that you were duped.

 

If you are really interested in learning, I will help you but it will take time, but you will lose your faith. My evidence is overwhelming and top apologists are clearly seen as liars. I would even debate them as even their seminary knowledge sucks.

 

Tell me if I am on the button here and if you want to go down the rabbit hole. It is very deep.

[centauri]

This does not say the reason God acted was to eliminate evil. He was punishing the evil in the men of that day.

 

So God wanted evil to restart all over again?

He not only punished humans, he punished other creatures of his creation.

You've yet to explain how such crass and callous behavior equals "good".

 

Evil exists as when free willed creatures act against God's will.

 

You haven't established that humans have universal "free will".

The Bible indicates the otherwise.

God also manipulates humans to influence their behavior.

The existence of evil is a product of God per Isa 45:7.

 

satan and his demons were not destroyed in the flood, so evil continued during and after the flood. Evil sprouts up when free willed agents sin.

 

Evil sprouted up when God created it.(Isa 45:7)

There is no support from the Old Testament that satan has demons or that satan is evil.

 

1Co 2:11

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

 

You as a created limited being can not know all God's reasons and all the facts therefore you can not pass judgement on God.

 

Then you can't do it either.

You pass judgment on God all the time by claiming he's good.

 

Isa 29:16

You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

 

There are several theodicies that solve the problem of evil in modern theology.

 

It's no mystery.

Evil emerged from the same source that created all things. (Isa 45:7)

 

God wants justice.

 

Isa 45:7

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

 

Isa 45:7 refers to physical disasters. This is not the evil resulting from free. True evil is from the hearts of free willed beings. God created the universe with the laws of nature. Physical disasters happen.

Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

The word "ra" includes ethical evil, not simply physical disasters.

 

I don't claim to know the thoughts of God. That is why He gives us His special revelation. We know God's will through His revelation. He tells us He is good.

And Isa 45:7 tells you that he creates evil, which includes ethical evil.

God does all these things, which only makes sense because evil cannot arise by spontaneous generation.

It must emerge from the source that created all things.

 

The Bible tells us not to choose to do evil. Precisely because we have a free will.

 

Pro 3:31

Do not envy a man of violence And do not choose any of his ways.

The Bible contradicts "free will" in both the Old and New Testaments.

God predestines and manipulates at least some humans.

There is also no free will when punishment is delivered for failure to behave in a certain way.

At best this God gives conditional choice.

Truly free will doesn’t involve ultimatums.

[centauri]

1 Peter 4:7 states that the end of all things was near.

That prophecy was a flat out failure that gets ignored by apologists for obvious reasons.

 

This is not a failed prophecy. He makes no prediction as to when, and he does not even claim it as prophecy.

 

1Pe 4:7

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

Warning that the end of all things is near is a prediction.

Only in the mind of an apologist can "near" and "soon" mean thousands of years.

That's what happens when predictions fail.

 

This is not proclaimed by Peter to be a prophecy. This is not proclaimed by Peter as a word of God. In context He is simply warning his brothers and sisters that Christ may come at any time. No one knows the time and place as Christ said so Peter can not be prophesying as to when.

 

Mat 24:36

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Peter predicted that the end of all things was near.

Is prophecy a form of prediction?

It’s supposed to be the word of God by virtue that it’s in the Bible, or so Christians have told me.

So are you saying that it wasn’t authorized by God for Peter to predict this?

You’re also trying to rewrite scripture.

The text does not say:

The end of all things could come at any time.

 

It says the end of all things was at hand.

 

1 Peter 4:7

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

 

"At hand" means near or soon.

 

You omitted the key verse where Jesus tells his audience that it would happen during their lifetimes.

 

Matt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

[bornagainathiest]

OC, for me to provide the explanations you'd like, you and I first have to agree on our terminology and the meaning of the terms we use. I ask because I once debated the meaning of Repeatability in science with the author of this book... http://www.miraclesormagic.com/

 

Can you show me where you had the debate? I'd like to read it.

 

Here...

 

http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopic-1440-days0-orderasc-rory-45.html

 

 

So, please provide a full and detailed explanation of your understanding of the highlighted terms you use in your request.

 

"Please explain how the multiverse evidence (which does not exist at the moment) will be observable and not repeatable. I think you are confusing repeatable with falsifiable.

 

If and when they find the evidence for a multiverse reality it will have to be repeatable or no scientist will pay any attention. Empirical evidence must be repeatable. There is a lot of skepticism within the physics community that such evidence can be had."

 

Thank you.

 

BAA.

 

You are asking fair questions. Here are the definitions I use ...

Evidence

Observable

Repeatable

Falsifiable

For Emperical, I assume it must be repeatable as well as observable

 

Thank you, OC.

 

BAA.

[♦ ficino ♦]

This does not say the reason God acted was to eliminate evil. He was punishing the evil in the men of that day.

 

So God wanted evil to restart all over again?

He not only punished humans, he punished other creatures of his creation.

You've yet to explain how such crass and callous behavior equals "good".

 

Evil exists as when free willed creatures act against God's will.

 

You haven't established that humans have universal "free will".

The Bible indicates the otherwise.

God also manipulates humans to influence their behavior.

The existence of evil is a product of God per Isa 45:7.

 

satan and his demons were not destroyed in the flood, so evil continued during and after the flood. Evil sprouts up when free willed agents sin.

 

Evil sprouted up when God created it.(Isa 45:7)

There is no support from the Old Testament that satan has demons or that satan is evil.

 

1Co 2:11

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

 

You as a created limited being can not know all God's reasons and all the facts therefore you can not pass judgement on God.

 

Then you can't do it either.

You pass judgment on God all the time by claiming he's good.

 

Isa 29:16

You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

 

There are several theodicies that solve the problem of evil in modern theology.

 

It's no mystery.

Evil emerged from the same source that created all things. (Isa 45:7)

 

God wants justice.

 

Isa 45:7

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

 

Isa 45:7 refers to physical disasters. This is not the evil resulting from free. True evil is from the hearts of free willed beings. God created the universe with the laws of nature. Physical disasters happen.

Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

The word "ra" includes ethical evil, not simply physical disasters.

 

I don't claim to know the thoughts of God. That is why He gives us His special revelation. We know God's will through His revelation. He tells us He is good.

And Isa 45:7 tells you that he creates evil, which includes ethical evil.

God does all these things, which only makes sense because evil cannot arise by spontaneous generation.

It must emerge from the source that created all things.

 

The Bible tells us not to choose to do evil. Precisely because we have a free will.

 

Pro 3:31

Do not envy a man of violence And do not choose any of his ways.

The Bible contradicts "free will" in both the Old and New Testaments.

God predestines and manipulates at least some humans.

There is also no free will when punishment is delivered for failure to behave in a certain way.

At best this God gives conditional choice.

Truly free will doesn’t involve ultimatums.

 

OC, if you deny that God creates evil and claim that rational creatures make decisions that He does not predestine, then your result is a universe with areas that are autonomous from God's control. God is not sovereign acc. to your doctrine. How can you even be sure that God will win in the end, if He is not in control over parts of what He has made?

[mcdaddy]

I'd love it if some character came along, claimed to fulfill a bunch of NT "prophecies", and start a new religion, and then have its adherents point at christians and tell them how stupid they are to not recognize how this character so *obviously* fulfilled their own prophecies, while they didnt recognize it. Youre saying the Jews are so ****ing dense and stupid they dont even know what their own "messiah" would do or be like?

 

man i'd love to see those tables turned.

 

You mean Joseph Smith?

 

 

Joseph Smith was an occultist. You can read parts of his story here. He used scrying to dictate the book of mormon. His wife Emma Smith wrote while he was scrying. Mormonism has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

Just like how Xianity has nothing to do with Judaism. Misapplied prophecies, wrong apocalyptic theories and timeframes, etc etc ad infinum.

 

"your religion is nuckin futs.....but mine, MINE is completely rational. ". And you're going to post some WLC B.S. in here?!? That's brave. He's the definition of moron. He uses arguments that were discredited centuries ago, but the flock doesn't know this so they think he's some kind of jeen-yus.

 

I suppose you believe the bible was dictated by some invisible force right? How is that any less crazy than Jo smith?